Am I the only Berserker that WANTS to be the MT??

Memmoch · 06-28-2005, 09:55 AM

I see all these posts on our DPS and how it needs to be upgraded/left alone but I don't see that many posts if any on us tanking. I don't know about the rest of you but I made a Berserker because of 2 things. I want to tank and I want to go crazy when I do it. If you want to balance out the Berserker/Guardian equation then Berserker's should be able to normally have good DPS with the ability to downplay it for better Defense and Guardian's should normally have good Defense with the ability to downgrade that for improved DPS. It's sad to see so many of my fellow berserker's out there saying that they are content to be a middle range tank. Berserker's are heavy tanks, if they are not tanking then what good are they? If I wanted a DPS class I would of made a scout or mage. I didn't though I wanted a TOP END TANK that Berzerked. Mumn

Causti · 06-28-2005, 12:09 PM

"If you want to balance out the Berserker/Guardian equation then Berserker's should be able to normally have good DPS with the ability to downplay it for better Defense and Guardian's should normally have good Defense with the ability to downgrade that for improved DPS."

Well doesn't that just make us the same exact thing? I personally made a Berserker for one reason - Two Handed Weapons and Platemail. I was very exicted to see that they made a dps-esque class that can use both those things. It says in the description for the class that we are OFFENSIVE ORIENTED WARRIORS! To me offense = dps. Sure, we can tank, but should NEVER tank as well as a Guardian, if we could, then we should just be f'ing Guardians.

I don't ever want to see a Guardian do as much DPS as me though, because when the Guardian picked his class it didn't say "BTW, you cna totally hit just as hard as a Berserker." It said, "If you dig tanking, you should be a Guardian."

I have never seen a Guardian fill an extra group slot when they needed more DPS; I however have filled a last DPS slot many times. I don't want that to change. I would of made a Guardian if I wanted to tank 100% of the time, unfortunatly I hate tanking - unfortunatly I picked Berserker I guess.

Memmoch · 06-28-2005, 12:37 PM

It makes guardian's/Berserker's the exact thing sure.....a Heavy tank able to dish out dmg and take dmg as the situation calls for, just in different ways and with different "flavors". I'm fairly certain that when EQ2 came out this is pretty much the exact thing that they said would be the case between Guardian's and Berserker's...One would buff the group defensivly and the other would offensivly. I signed up as a zerker to buff my group offensivly while I tanked the mob and let my buffs raise the DPS of the group as a whole. Not to be yet another DPS machine. As to being able to use 2h weapons and wear platemail.....your not unique in that department lol....SK's, pally's, guardians are right there with you in that department. All the platemail class can use some kind of 2h weapon and wear plate, and guardians can use any and everything that you can use. Guardians get Self only haste buffs that put them almost on par with us as far as being hasted.....if you put a guardian and a berserker in the same group...wait for it.....a guardian can be MORE hasted than a zerker! As of right now guardian's and zerker's are just 2 faces of the same coin. That's what I was looking for when I made this char...hell if I wanted a DPS machine I would of went assasin :smileyvery-happy: Mumn

Causti · 06-28-2005, 12:49 PM

You seem to be missing my point entirely. SMILEY

I know other classes can wear plate, that wasn't the argument I was trying to make. What I was trying to say was, why can't any DPS classes wear plate? To me, that was what Berserker called out. Half Tank/Half DPS. I believe alot of other people saw it that way too, hell, I think SOE saw it that way seeing is that is what we do now, right?

Notice how alot of our spells are self only dps buffs? Tides of War increases OUR DPS, Focus Rage increases OUR DPS, we get self only haste to do incredible DPS. We get next to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e for defense buffs. Our class revolves around DPS, like it or not, all you need to do is look at our skills. The difference between our skills and Guardian skills isn't a "flavor"; it's a completely different class.

I like it that way, and it seems the majority of Berserkers like it that way too.

Dherf · 06-28-2005, 02:43 PM

No you are not the only one!!

I have chosen the berserker for your same reasons.....To be the main tank.

Who says that guardian is a better tank than Berserker? Both are War, and so both have same mitigation and the same hp/sta... If guardian has more defensives buffs , the berserker has the best aggro generation.. and that's very important.

Lexan · 06-28-2005, 07:39 PM

We run a zerker mt SMILEY

the agro is unmatched plan and simple!!!

Kran · 06-28-2005, 10:11 PM

I love MTing for groups and such, but in a raid and endgame stuff, I WANT A ROLL. That roll is DPS, hardly EVER tanking. Taking away our DPS, means that there isnt a real need for a zerker. Why not replace us with a group 1 DPS, or a Guardian tank.

Styk · 06-29-2005, 02:48 AM

Lexani our agro is unmatched because the lvl 50 Guardian AE taunt is still broken against raid mobs...... when they get that fixed , that will go away quick

Arcrival · 06-29-2005, 06:56 AM

There are two tank classes Berserkers and Guardians. Pali and Sk can tank truth of the matter is from EQ conception they are a hybrid class (thats another rant all together). When it is said and done the warrior class is it. That being said alot of our buffs are geared towards offensive grp enhancement as is our role in the game and IMO we are a great asset to any grp/raid. Guardians is defensive but there is no perfect guide or written in stone rule that says a guardian can out tank a berserker. If the berserker is managing the crowd better and his/her skill level exceeds the Guardians then the Berserker needs to take the position of tank and the Guardian needs to step off equip the 2hander/duals and support the group.

Arctigre

Berserker of the 50th Season

Guild Oblivious

Unrest

Memmoch · 07-06-2005, 05:11 AM

Sorry for the late reply, work upped it's hours and Splitpaw went live...and all of you know how much fun it's been SMILEY

They changed several patches ago on how our buffs work...now we have a few buffs that are self only. Our main buffs go group wide. Tides of War is a group wide buff, as is Destructive Rage...both of which are main sustained buffs. That's a group buff, not self only. Which stays inline with SOE's orginal documentation that Guardian's would buff the group defensivly and zerker's would buff the group offensivly....I love it that way SMILEY

When I step in as main tank in a group, and buff myself full defensive I've compared myself to guardians, their mitigation is the same, their avoidance is the same and their hps (if they are in my group lol) are the same. I like it like that! Let's stay away from drifting back to the EQ1 line of thinking of just thinking that the traditional warrior (maybe guardian) can be the only MT. We bring alot of good solid buffs to the group and if you review our buff lines we have a real good number of self only buffs to improve our defense, with a few really really really good (!!!!) buffs to improve the offensive of our group, as SOE intended imho. We're as pure of a tank as the guardian is, only deference is they buff their group defensivly while we buff our group offensively... Mumn 50 zerker Butcherblock

Adrenachro · 07-06-2005, 11:19 AM

Memmoch, I feel the same way as you - I also want to tank as well as a Guardian. I'm at the stage where I am starting to raid reasonably often, and would like to MT these raids. While I can MT any of the middle tier raids, it's going to get very hard very quickly for our party if we've only got me to MT the higher-tier raids like Vox, Venekor, and I wouldn't even THINK of trying to MT Darathar. I haven't tried any of those higher raid mobs, but I'm pretty sure I'd be smoked like a cheap cigar. Granted, my armour isn't uber (2 pieces of ebon and the rest rubicite/jboots), but even if it was, this is where Guardians really are necessary - MT'ing the high tier raid mobs. It's not a huge ask to get a Guardian's defense up passed 290, but I can't see how I can do that with my toon (if any Zerkers out there would care to explain what buffs and what adept levels they use to get their defense only 2 points lower than a Guardian's, please share! For me, Barbarian trait + Unflinching Will + Warden buff = only 277-ish defense!).

While this is disappointing for the would-be raid tank Zerkers out there, we still have a very important role in raids - MA. We can pull aggro off the softer classes extremely quickly and have some great buffs that draw non-linked adds onto us (Anarchy, ToW). Plus if a Guardian is already MT'ing, we have their defense buffs and can therefore take the adds' hits -almost- as well as the Guards themselves.

Also remember that while Guardians CAN tank these raid mobs, they can't solo as well and for me, soloability is important. Also, for tanking ordinary mobs (which we've fought for 95% of the game), Berserkers do just as good a job. And the mobs fall a bit quicker (particularly if you have other melee-ers in your group). Personally, I wouldn't trade being able to tank the big-fella raid mobs for the awesome soloability, utility and excitement of being a Zerker. I love being a crazy, heavy-armored AoE proc machine that does more damage the more he's hit. I think Sony captured THAT part of the Berserker lore pretty well.

Message Edited by Adrenachrome on 07-06-2005 06:50 PM

Fiezera · 07-06-2005, 03:14 PM

I MTed for Vox, Darathar, Nagalik, K'Dal, etc... So I say we can MT for everything though I don't know if we can after rebalance.

This is a part of combat log when I MTed for New Nagalik.

http://fiezerald.sakura.ne.jp/temp/nagalikattack.txt

Styk · 07-06-2005, 05:34 PM

Quick Question , did you have a Guardian in your group? If you did then any Plate Tank can fill the job , now if you didnt then more kudos to you .....

einar4 · 07-06-2005, 08:27 PM

Memmoch wrote:
I see all these posts on our DPS and how it needs to be upgraded/left alone but I don't see that many posts if any on us tanking. I don't know about the rest of you but I made a Berserker because of 2 things. I want to tank and I want to go crazy when I do it. If you want to balance out the Berserker/Guardian equation then Berserker's should be able to normally have good DPS with the ability to downplay it for better Defense and Guardian's should normally have good Defense with the ability to downgrade that for improved DPS.

It's sad to see so many of my fellow berserker's out there saying that they are content to be a middle range tank. Berserker's are heavy tanks, if they are not tanking then what good are they? If I wanted a DPS class I would of made a scout or mage. I didn't though I wanted a TOP END TANK that Berzerked.

Mumn

That pretty much sums up my view... I like the berserker image, and I want to be able to go nuts and still soak and dodge the damage while in the middle of a mob of monsters swinging at me. I let the warlocks and the scouts decimate them while I keep them busy with hacking and snarling.

Adrenachro · 07-07-2005, 06:36 AM

That's great Fiezerald! Good to hear Zerkers can MT those mobs. Could you give us some insight as to what gear you used (lotsa fabled or mainly ebon armour?). And do you have Master I Controlled Rage or something like that which contributes hugely to your ability to avoid the hits? Also, was there a Guardian and/or Warden in your group?

I'm really interested as to the setup of the uber Zerkers out there that can MT mobs like Vox, Naga and hell, Darathar. I'm sure there are other (less experienced) Zerkers out there like me that would like to know how it has been possible to MT mobs. Understand if you don't wanna share any of your 'secrets', but would still love to hear anything you could contribute SMILEY

I wonder a lot... how much of a raid depends on the uber-ness of the MT (in terms of Fabled gear and Master buffs) in comparison to just a 'good' equipped MT with a fantastic team of healers and backup? I mean I know BOTH are important to win in the huge raids, but can a decently equipped tank (say, all ebon but no fabled, mainly adept 3's) handle the 57+ raid mobs if he's with a great raid team? Or is it absolutely impossible to MT those mobs without Fabled gear?

Fiezera · 07-07-2005, 10:00 AM

Yes, we have a Guardian and a Warden in our MT group. Although basically I'm in MT group to do health buff and off tank, often I do MT with 2nd Guardian when our main Guardian is not online. Or I do when we need to keep aggro hard like Nagalik and K'Dal. If we have Fabled Gears, we can tank better. But I think important things to do MT are keeping aggro and professional healers' backup. Just harder w/o fabled gears.

Destructive Rage, Uthors' Sperior Tactics, Screaming Fury, Battle Tactics, Tides of War, Anarchy, Unbridled Fury, Focus Rage, Unflinching Will, Darkmoore's Protective Advance

Those are my regular buffs. And those are Master I or Adept III. I didn't use Controlled Rage because mine is still Adept I.

Taik · 07-07-2005, 10:08 AM

Gimme dat MT job. If the pt wont let me MT then I'll warn them my dps will prolly take agro anyway without useing my adept3 taunts.

Nazo · 07-07-2005, 11:05 AM

On a side note Styker said :

Lexani our agro is unmatched because the lvl 50 Guardian AE taunt is still broken against raid mobs...... when they get that fixed , that will go away quick

Its not only about being able to taunt a group of mobs and keeping them on you. Berserkers have the unique (AFAIK) ability to grab a mob and pull it away from a group. This ability to "peel" mobs have allways impressed me as a Guardian. I got nothing comparable to it.

Ethelwo · 07-07-2005, 06:55 PM

I was reading on the vanguard Forums that tanks will have defence and offensive stances. When using the defence stance tanks have less dps and higher defence, When tanks use the offensive stance their defence skills lower and they gain higher dps. This is a simple solution to what seems to SOE a complicated problem.

Pin StNeedl · 07-07-2005, 08:49 PM

Styker wrote:
Quick Question , did you have a Guardian in your group? If you did then any Plate Tank can fill the job , now if you didnt then more kudos to you .....

Having a Guard in the group while a Berserker is MT isn't as much of a necessity as some think. Generally what they will add is 8defense - the rest can be replaced (to varying degrees) by having a Paladin, or 3 priests + conj in the group instead.

And while that 8defense is nice, it's really just the difference from me sitting at 297 or 305 defense through the fight (with my usual raids) which is certainly not make or break.

The main point is, there isn't a mob/encounter that I wouldn't be happy tanking and many I wouldn't be too worried about having the perfect cookie-cutter raid or MT-grou build. But also, I'm perfectly happy letting others be MT if they are up to the job while I play MA, or peel mobs, or just call strategy. It makes for a better guild atmosphere if the jobs are switched around from time to time SMILEY

Pin StNeedl · 07-07-2005, 09:11 PM

Adrenachrome wrote:

It's not a huge ask to get a Guardian's defense up passed 290, but I can't see how I can do that with my toon (if any Zerkers out there would care to explain what buffs and what adept levels they use to get their defense only 2 points lower than a Guardian's, please share! For me, Barbarian trait + Unflinching Will + Warden buff = only 277-ish defense!).

Controlled Rage adept3 is 15 defense (swap out Unflinching Will and you have 270 self-buffed).

You can then gain more defense (another 35 or so) from having a Warden, Guardian and Bard in the group, and a Mystic anywhere in the raid. Thus 300+ isn't a problem (or 320+ with clickies if you need).

Memmoch · 07-11-2005, 07:51 PM

I recently MTed Anvipaw in the new splitpaw raid, had a blast! Our 1 Huge advantage over guardians is our aggro generation, We tried this encounter 2x times, first with a guardian tanking, raid wiped as he quickly lost aggro from all the different group mobs. Second time with me MTing, I did just fine and once I gained the attention of a mob I never lost his aggro and I was using the Screaming mace to keep my power flowing heh( the screaming mace proc gives you power but reduces hate). Only 1 person died, a lower level swashbuckler that just didn't have the hps to take more than 1 or 2 swings from inc adds. I have come though to the realization that Guardians can get 1 important stat higher than us....their mitiagation. Avdionance and HPs are anyone's guess between the 2 classes as most the time those 2 are more gear dependant. They have anchor at lvl 48ish that gives them roughly 140 to mitigation which as of right now we just can not compete against. But as I proved in the Anvilpaw raid while mitigation is important aggro generation is the most important, seems this is true for most raids I've been on. We usually go with a 2/3 equation for deciding MT. Hps/Miti/Avoidance....whoever has those the highest MT's. We also compare resists though as some raid mobs toss out some pretty hardcore DDs/dots. My thoughts on the 2 classes are that zerkers need a mitigation buff at the sacifice of DPS and guardians need a offense buff at the sacifice of defense. It really shouldn't be this off balanced between the 2 Heavy Tank classes. My gear btw is far from the best out there, I have all ebon except boots/gloves and only 1 fabled item, that being a ring( it's sweet ring though!!)

Pin StNeedl · 07-11-2005, 08:17 PM

Memmoch wrote:

I have come though to the realization that Guardians can get 1 important stat higher than us....their mitiagation. Avdionance and HPs are anyone's guess between the 2 classes as most the time those 2 are more gear dependant. They have anchor at lvl 48ish that gives them roughly 140 to mitigation which as of right now we just can not compete against.

Anchor does not increase the mitigation of the Guardian.

It's a LONG range attack-speed debuff which increases the mitigation of the MOB, not the Guardian. It's a nice tool that they have for single-target pulling on some encounters, but it's not some uber buff that Berserkers cannot compete with.

And if you are a raid MT, you'll find that HP and Avoidance are much more dependent on buffs from yourself and your group than gear (strip naked in a raid and you'll lose <10% of your hps and still show over 100% avoidance), whereas being in fulginate, or ebon, or full fabled gear will show the difference between sitting at 70% to 90% mitigation (i.e. a big difference if you're being hit).

Memmoch · 07-11-2005, 08:30 PM

Not sure how the spell is worded but our level 50 guardian cast it while we was comparing stats and it gave him a boost of 140 mitigation. He has it at adept 1. Maybe it's broken atm, and increases the mit of the spell casters instead of the mob.../shrug not sure. I do know that it increases the mitiagation of the guardian at this time though, ask one.

Pin StNeedl · 07-11-2005, 08:53 PM

Memmoch wrote:
Not sure how the spell is worded but our level 50 guardian cast it while we was comparing stats and it gave him a boost of 140 mitigation. He has it at adept 1. Maybe it's broken atm, and increases the mit of the spell casters instead of the mob.../shrug not sure. I do know that it increases the mitiagation of the guardian at this time though, ask one.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13444&query.id=146323#M13444

Thread on the guardian board arguing both ways (most say it's applied to the mob, however) - so I'll get someone else to test it later, I guess.

Parax · 07-12-2005, 05:50 PM

Group raiding setup. I always have the same folks in my raid group. Me as MT, troubador for superior stat buffs (235 agility+), warden for stat buffs and heal over time, (265 agility+), templar for reactive heals, defiler for stat buffs (stregth really) and wards and any caster class really i think, but I have a wizzy all the time, great spell mitigation. That is what I group raid with, the other 3 groups in the raid can be filled with whatever. mainly healers, dps. I taunt aggro from mob, cast every single group buff whether needed or not, I do not attack at all during the first half of the mobs health. About halfway through I start attacking occasionally, If you attack constantly you will get riposted for tremendous amount of damage, that is what normally kills MT the quickest too many ripostes. One thing I make sure is always up as much as possible is use the Fury line of combat art (the counter-attack), as that will deal a tremendous amount of extra damage back to the mob, and usually the lesser mobs health starts to fall fairly well with all the counter attacks. That's pretty much it.

Memmoch · 07-25-2005, 02:00 PM

Paraxis that is a very interesting idea you have there. Attack off some to avoid the repoistes. I will be toying with your method some and see how that works. My typical raid mob setup is me as MT, a guardian for their hp/avoidance buffs, templar (same reason you cited), mystic for all around buffs (full spread from good resists to good str/sta/agi buffs), necro (for poison/disease and hp buffs), pally (for mitigation boost buffs). We do have some wizards in the guild that I mix in sometimes and we also have some young troubador's leveling as fast as they can to lend a hand (they will be in the MT group soon as they hit high lvl). I find though you can't really have 1 set type group to go with as different situations call for different resist setups. That's why sometimes I go with wizzy's and sometimes necro's.

06-28-2005, 12:09 PM	#2
Causti General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	"If you want to balance out the Berserker/Guardian equation then Berserker's should be able to normally have good DPS with the ability to downplay it for better Defense and Guardian's should normally have good Defense with the ability to downgrade that for improved DPS." Well doesn't that just make us the same exact thing? I personally made a Berserker for one reason - Two Handed Weapons and Platemail. I was very exicted to see that they made a dps-esque class that can use both those things. It says in the description for the class that we are OFFENSIVE ORIENTED WARRIORS! To me offense = dps. Sure, we can tank, but should NEVER tank as well as a Guardian, if we could, then we should just be f'ing Guardians. I don't ever want to see a Guardian do as much DPS as me though, because when the Guardian picked his class it didn't say "BTW, you cna totally hit just as hard as a Berserker." It said, "If you dig tanking, you should be a Guardian." I have never seen a Guardian fill an extra group slot when they needed more DPS; I however have filled a last DPS slot many times. I don't want that to change. I would of made a Guardian if I wanted to tank 100% of the time, unfortunatly I hate tanking - unfortunatly I picked Berserker I guess. __________________ Level 50 Berserker - Fallen

06-28-2005, 12:49 PM	#4
Causti General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	You seem to be missing my point entirely. I know other classes can wear plate, that wasn't the argument I was trying to make. What I was trying to say was, why can't any DPS classes wear plate? To me, that was what Berserker called out. Half Tank/Half DPS. I believe alot of other people saw it that way too, hell, I think SOE saw it that way seeing is that is what we do now, right? Notice how alot of our spells are self only dps buffs? Tides of War increases OUR DPS, Focus Rage increases OUR DPS, we get self only haste to do incredible DPS. We get next to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e for defense buffs. Our class revolves around DPS, like it or not, all you need to do is look at our skills. The difference between our skills and Guardian skills isn't a "flavor"; it's a completely different class. I like it that way, and it seems the majority of Berserkers like it that way too. __________________ Level 50 Berserker - Fallen

06-28-2005, 07:39 PM	#6
Lexan General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 170	We run a zerker mt the agro is unmatched plan and simple!!! __________________ Kobal...Bezerker of Dissolution Axkiva Min...Ranger of Dissolution...(retired: class currently crap) Siegfreid... Monk of Ye Drunken Horde Kazzi... Defiler of Ye Drunken Horde

06-29-2005, 02:48 AM	#8
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	Lexani our agro is unmatched because the lvl 50 Guardian AE taunt is still broken against raid mobs...... when they get that fixed , that will go away quick __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

06-29-2005, 06:56 AM	#9
Arcrival Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 12	There are two tank classes Berserkers and Guardians. Pali and Sk can tank truth of the matter is from EQ conception they are a hybrid class (thats another rant all together). When it is said and done the warrior class is it. That being said alot of our buffs are geared towards offensive grp enhancement as is our role in the game and IMO we are a great asset to any grp/raid. Guardians is defensive but there is no perfect guide or written in stone rule that says a guardian can out tank a berserker. If the berserker is managing the crowd better and his/her skill level exceeds the Guardians then the Berserker needs to take the position of tank and the Guardian needs to step off equip the 2hander/duals and support the group. Arctigre Berserker of the 50th Season Guild Oblivious Unrest __________________ Arctigre Berserker of the 80th season Guild Oblivious Unrest You call it brute force! I call it extreme negotiations

06-28-2005, 09:55 AM	#1
Memmoch Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 200	I see all these posts on our DPS and how it needs to be upgraded/left alone but I don't see that many posts if any on us tanking. I don't know about the rest of you but I made a Berserker because of 2 things. I want to tank and I want to go crazy when I do it. If you want to balance out the Berserker/Guardian equation then Berserker's should be able to normally have good DPS with the ability to downplay it for better Defense and Guardian's should normally have good Defense with the ability to downgrade that for improved DPS. It's sad to see so many of my fellow berserker's out there saying that they are content to be a middle range tank. Berserker's are heavy tanks, if they are not tanking then what good are they? If I wanted a DPS class I would of made a scout or mage. I didn't though I wanted a TOP END TANK that Berzerked. Mumn

06-28-2005, 12:37 PM	#3
Memmoch Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 200	It makes guardian's/Berserker's the exact thing sure.....a Heavy tank able to dish out dmg and take dmg as the situation calls for, just in different ways and with different "flavors". I'm fairly certain that when EQ2 came out this is pretty much the exact thing that they said would be the case between Guardian's and Berserker's...One would buff the group defensivly and the other would offensivly. I signed up as a zerker to buff my group offensivly while I tanked the mob and let my buffs raise the DPS of the group as a whole. Not to be yet another DPS machine. As to being able to use 2h weapons and wear platemail.....your not unique in that department lol....SK's, pally's, guardians are right there with you in that department. All the platemail class can use some kind of 2h weapon and wear plate, and guardians can use any and everything that you can use. Guardians get Self only haste buffs that put them almost on par with us as far as being hasted.....if you put a guardian and a berserker in the same group...wait for it.....a guardian can be MORE hasted than a zerker! As of right now guardian's and zerker's are just 2 faces of the same coin. That's what I was looking for when I made this char...hell if I wanted a DPS machine I would of went assasin :smileyvery-happy: Mumn

06-28-2005, 02:43 PM	#5
Dherf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 39	No you are not the only one!! I have chosen the berserker for your same reasons.....To be the main tank. Who says that guardian is a better tank than Berserker? Both are War, and so both have same mitigation and the same hp/sta... If guardian has more defensives buffs , the berserker has the best aggro generation.. and that's very important.

06-28-2005, 10:11 PM	#7
Kran Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4	I love MTing for groups and such, but in a raid and endgame stuff, I WANT A ROLL. That roll is DPS, hardly EVER tanking. Taking away our DPS, means that there isnt a real need for a zerker. Why not replace us with a group 1 DPS, or a Guardian tank.

07-06-2005, 05:11 AM	#10
Memmoch Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 200	Sorry for the late reply, work upped it's hours and Splitpaw went live...and all of you know how much fun it's been They changed several patches ago on how our buffs work...now we have a few buffs that are self only. Our main buffs go group wide. Tides of War is a group wide buff, as is Destructive Rage...both of which are main sustained buffs. That's a group buff, not self only. Which stays inline with SOE's orginal documentation that Guardian's would buff the group defensivly and zerker's would buff the group offensivly....I love it that way When I step in as main tank in a group, and buff myself full defensive I've compared myself to guardians, their mitigation is the same, their avoidance is the same and their hps (if they are in my group lol) are the same. I like it like that! Let's stay away from drifting back to the EQ1 line of thinking of just thinking that the traditional warrior (maybe guardian) can be the only MT. We bring alot of good solid buffs to the group and if you review our buff lines we have a real good number of self only buffs to improve our defense, with a few really really really good (!!!!) buffs to improve the offensive of our group, as SOE intended imho. We're as pure of a tank as the guardian is, only deference is they buff their group defensivly while we buff our group offensively... Mumn 50 zerker Butcherblock

07-06-2005, 11:19 AM	#11
Adrenachro Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 34	Memmoch, I feel the same way as you - I also want to tank as well as a Guardian. I'm at the stage where I am starting to raid reasonably often, and would like to MT these raids. While I can MT any of the middle tier raids, it's going to get very hard very quickly for our party if we've only got me to MT the higher-tier raids like Vox, Venekor, and I wouldn't even THINK of trying to MT Darathar. I haven't tried any of those higher raid mobs, but I'm pretty sure I'd be smoked like a cheap cigar. Granted, my armour isn't uber (2 pieces of ebon and the rest rubicite/jboots), but even if it was, this is where Guardians really are necessary - MT'ing the high tier raid mobs. It's not a huge ask to get a Guardian's defense up passed 290, but I can't see how I can do that with my toon (if any Zerkers out there would care to explain what buffs and what adept levels they use to get their defense only 2 points lower than a Guardian's, please share! For me, Barbarian trait + Unflinching Will + Warden buff = only 277-ish defense!). While this is disappointing for the would-be raid tank Zerkers out there, we still have a very important role in raids - MA. We can pull aggro off the softer classes extremely quickly and have some great buffs that draw non-linked adds onto us (Anarchy, ToW). Plus if a Guardian is already MT'ing, we have their defense buffs and can therefore take the adds' hits -almost- as well as the Guards themselves. Also remember that while Guardians CAN tank these raid mobs, they can't solo as well and for me, soloability is important. Also, for tanking ordinary mobs (which we've fought for 95% of the game), Berserkers do just as good a job. And the mobs fall a bit quicker (particularly if you have other melee-ers in your group). Personally, I wouldn't trade being able to tank the big-fella raid mobs for the awesome soloability, utility and excitement of being a Zerker. I love being a crazy, heavy-armored AoE proc machine that does more damage the more he's hit. I think Sony captured THAT part of the Berserker lore pretty well. Message Edited by Adrenachrome on 07-06-2005 06:50 PM __________________ 70 Fury

07-06-2005, 03:14 PM	#12
Fiezera Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	I MTed for Vox, Darathar, Nagalik, K'Dal, etc... So I say we can MT for everything though I don't know if we can after rebalance. This is a part of combat log when I MTed for New Nagalik. http://fiezerald.sakura.ne.jp/temp/nagalikattack.txt __________________ Fiezerald Berserker - Malice - Grobb

07-06-2005, 05:34 PM	#13
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	Quick Question , did you have a Guardian in your group? If you did then any Plate Tank can fill the job , now if you didnt then more kudos to you ..... __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

07-06-2005, 08:27 PM	#14
einar4 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Memmoch wrote: I see all these posts on our DPS and how it needs to be upgraded/left alone but I don't see that many posts if any on us tanking. I don't know about the rest of you but I made a Berserker because of 2 things. I want to tank and I want to go crazy when I do it. If you want to balance out the Berserker/Guardian equation then Berserker's should be able to normally have good DPS with the ability to downplay it for better Defense and Guardian's should normally have good Defense with the ability to downgrade that for improved DPS. It's sad to see so many of my fellow berserker's out there saying that they are content to be a middle range tank. Berserker's are heavy tanks, if they are not tanking then what good are they? If I wanted a DPS class I would of made a scout or mage. I didn't though I wanted a TOP END TANK that Berzerked. Mumn That pretty much sums up my view... I like the berserker image, and I want to be able to go nuts and still soak and dodge the damage while in the middle of a mob of monsters swinging at me. I let the warlocks and the scouts decimate them while I keep them busy with hacking and snarling. __________________ Pagris, Jhervais etc. "Sage, did I err?" Groo the Wanderer.

07-07-2005, 06:36 AM	#15
Adrenachro Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 34	That's great Fiezerald! Good to hear Zerkers can MT those mobs. Could you give us some insight as to what gear you used (lotsa fabled or mainly ebon armour?). And do you have Master I Controlled Rage or something like that which contributes hugely to your ability to avoid the hits? Also, was there a Guardian and/or Warden in your group? I'm really interested as to the setup of the uber Zerkers out there that can MT mobs like Vox, Naga and hell, Darathar. I'm sure there are other (less experienced) Zerkers out there like me that would like to know how it has been possible to MT mobs. Understand if you don't wanna share any of your 'secrets', but would still love to hear anything you could contribute I wonder a lot... how much of a raid depends on the uber-ness of the MT (in terms of Fabled gear and Master buffs) in comparison to just a 'good' equipped MT with a fantastic team of healers and backup? I mean I know BOTH are important to win in the huge raids, but can a decently equipped tank (say, all ebon but no fabled, mainly adept 3's) handle the 57+ raid mobs if he's with a great raid team? Or is it absolutely impossible to MT those mobs without Fabled gear? __________________ 70 Fury

07-07-2005, 10:00 AM	#16
Fiezera Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	Yes, we have a Guardian and a Warden in our MT group. Although basically I'm in MT group to do health buff and off tank, often I do MT with 2nd Guardian when our main Guardian is not online. Or I do when we need to keep aggro hard like Nagalik and K'Dal. If we have Fabled Gears, we can tank better. But I think important things to do MT are keeping aggro and professional healers' backup. Just harder w/o fabled gears. Destructive Rage, Uthors' Sperior Tactics, Screaming Fury, Battle Tactics, Tides of War, Anarchy, Unbridled Fury, Focus Rage, Unflinching Will, Darkmoore's Protective Advance Those are my regular buffs. And those are Master I or Adept III. I didn't use Controlled Rage because mine is still Adept I. __________________ Fiezerald Berserker - Malice - Grobb

07-07-2005, 10:08 AM	#17
Taik Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 13	Gimme dat MT job. If the pt wont let me MT then I'll warn them my dps will prolly take agro anyway without useing my adept3 taunts. __________________ Wipperwill Troubador/Tailor Emerald Tempest Befallen

07-07-2005, 11:05 AM	#18
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	On a side note Styker said : Lexani our agro is unmatched because the lvl 50 Guardian AE taunt is still broken against raid mobs...... when they get that fixed , that will go away quick Its not only about being able to taunt a group of mobs and keeping them on you. Berserkers have the unique (AFAIK) ability to grab a mob and pull it away from a group. This ability to "peel" mobs have allways impressed me as a Guardian. I got nothing comparable to it.

07-07-2005, 06:55 PM	#19
Ethelwo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 212	I was reading on the vanguard Forums that tanks will have defence and offensive stances. When using the defence stance tanks have less dps and higher defence, When tanks use the offensive stance their defence skills lower and they gain higher dps. This is a simple solution to what seems to SOE a complicated problem.

07-07-2005, 08:49 PM	#20
Pin StNeedl General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 251	Styker wrote: Quick Question , did you have a Guardian in your group? If you did then any Plate Tank can fill the job , now if you didnt then more kudos to you ..... Having a Guard in the group while a Berserker is MT isn't as much of a necessity as some think. Generally what they will add is 8defense - the rest can be replaced (to varying degrees) by having a Paladin, or 3 priests + conj in the group instead. And while that 8defense is nice, it's really just the difference from me sitting at 297 or 305 defense through the fight (with my usual raids) which is certainly not make or break. The main point is, there isn't a mob/encounter that I wouldn't be happy tanking and many I wouldn't be too worried about having the perfect cookie-cutter raid or MT-grou build. But also, I'm perfectly happy letting others be MT if they are up to the job while I play MA, or peel mobs, or just call strategy. It makes for a better guild atmosphere if the jobs are switched around from time to time

07-07-2005, 09:11 PM	#21
Pin StNeedl General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 251	Adrenachrome wrote: It's not a huge ask to get a Guardian's defense up passed 290, but I can't see how I can do that with my toon (if any Zerkers out there would care to explain what buffs and what adept levels they use to get their defense only 2 points lower than a Guardian's, please share! For me, Barbarian trait + Unflinching Will + Warden buff = only 277-ish defense!). Controlled Rage adept3 is 15 defense (swap out Unflinching Will and you have 270 self-buffed). You can then gain more defense (another 35 or so) from having a Warden, Guardian and Bard in the group, and a Mystic anywhere in the raid. Thus 300+ isn't a problem (or 320+ with clickies if you need).

07-11-2005, 07:51 PM	#22
Memmoch Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 200	I recently MTed Anvipaw in the new splitpaw raid, had a blast! Our 1 Huge advantage over guardians is our aggro generation, We tried this encounter 2x times, first with a guardian tanking, raid wiped as he quickly lost aggro from all the different group mobs. Second time with me MTing, I did just fine and once I gained the attention of a mob I never lost his aggro and I was using the Screaming mace to keep my power flowing heh( the screaming mace proc gives you power but reduces hate). Only 1 person died, a lower level swashbuckler that just didn't have the hps to take more than 1 or 2 swings from inc adds. I have come though to the realization that Guardians can get 1 important stat higher than us....their mitiagation. Avdionance and HPs are anyone's guess between the 2 classes as most the time those 2 are more gear dependant. They have anchor at lvl 48ish that gives them roughly 140 to mitigation which as of right now we just can not compete against. But as I proved in the Anvilpaw raid while mitigation is important aggro generation is the most important, seems this is true for most raids I've been on. We usually go with a 2/3 equation for deciding MT. Hps/Miti/Avoidance....whoever has those the highest MT's. We also compare resists though as some raid mobs toss out some pretty hardcore DDs/dots. My thoughts on the 2 classes are that zerkers need a mitigation buff at the sacifice of DPS and guardians need a offense buff at the sacifice of defense. It really shouldn't be this off balanced between the 2 Heavy Tank classes. My gear btw is far from the best out there, I have all ebon except boots/gloves and only 1 fabled item, that being a ring( it's sweet ring though!!)

07-11-2005, 08:17 PM	#23
Pin StNeedl General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 251	Memmoch wrote: I have come though to the realization that Guardians can get 1 important stat higher than us....their mitiagation. Avdionance and HPs are anyone's guess between the 2 classes as most the time those 2 are more gear dependant. They have anchor at lvl 48ish that gives them roughly 140 to mitigation which as of right now we just can not compete against. Anchor does not increase the mitigation of the Guardian. It's a LONG range attack-speed debuff which increases the mitigation of the MOB, not the Guardian. It's a nice tool that they have for single-target pulling on some encounters, but it's not some uber buff that Berserkers cannot compete with. And if you are a raid MT, you'll find that HP and Avoidance are much more dependent on buffs from yourself and your group than gear (strip naked in a raid and you'll lose <10% of your hps and still show over 100% avoidance), whereas being in fulginate, or ebon, or full fabled gear will show the difference between sitting at 70% to 90% mitigation (i.e. a big difference if you're being hit).

07-11-2005, 08:30 PM	#24
Memmoch Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 200	Not sure how the spell is worded but our level 50 guardian cast it while we was comparing stats and it gave him a boost of 140 mitigation. He has it at adept 1. Maybe it's broken atm, and increases the mit of the spell casters instead of the mob.../shrug not sure. I do know that it increases the mitiagation of the guardian at this time though, ask one.

07-11-2005, 08:53 PM	#25
Pin StNeedl General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 251	Memmoch wrote: Not sure how the spell is worded but our level 50 guardian cast it while we was comparing stats and it gave him a boost of 140 mitigation. He has it at adept 1. Maybe it's broken atm, and increases the mit of the spell casters instead of the mob.../shrug not sure. I do know that it increases the mitiagation of the guardian at this time though, ask one. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13444&query.id=146323#M13444 Thread on the guardian board arguing both ways (most say it's applied to the mob, however) - so I'll get someone else to test it later, I guess.

07-12-2005, 05:50 PM	#26
Parax Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 49	Group raiding setup. I always have the same folks in my raid group. Me as MT, troubador for superior stat buffs (235 agility+), warden for stat buffs and heal over time, (265 agility+), templar for reactive heals, defiler for stat buffs (stregth really) and wards and any caster class really i think, but I have a wizzy all the time, great spell mitigation. That is what I group raid with, the other 3 groups in the raid can be filled with whatever. mainly healers, dps. I taunt aggro from mob, cast every single group buff whether needed or not, I do not attack at all during the first half of the mobs health. About halfway through I start attacking occasionally, If you attack constantly you will get riposted for tremendous amount of damage, that is what normally kills MT the quickest too many ripostes. One thing I make sure is always up as much as possible is use the Fury line of combat art (the counter-attack), as that will deal a tremendous amount of extra damage back to the mob, and usually the lesser mobs health starts to fall fairly well with all the counter attacks. That's pretty much it.

07-25-2005, 02:00 PM	#27
Memmoch Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 200	Paraxis that is a very interesting idea you have there. Attack off some to avoid the repoistes. I will be toying with your method some and see how that works. My typical raid mob setup is me as MT, a guardian for their hp/avoidance buffs, templar (same reason you cited), mystic for all around buffs (full spread from good resists to good str/sta/agi buffs), necro (for poison/disease and hp buffs), pally (for mitigation boost buffs). We do have some wizards in the guild that I mix in sometimes and we also have some young troubador's leveling as fast as they can to lend a hand (they will be in the MT group soon as they hit high lvl). I find though you can't really have 1 set type group to go with as different situations call for different resist setups. That's why sometimes I go with wizzy's and sometimes necro's.