Unsung and Unanswered Heroes

Gambrellin · 12-07-2005, 09:39 AM

Well after months of visiting this forum looking for any official responses concerning our issues, I have given up all hope that anything will change and that yes things must be working as intended.

Nice for SOE to string us along with the "were looking into it" responses. I see post after post on this forum of guards looking for any kind of official word as to what if anything is being done to guardians, to which there is no other reply than the "were looking into it".

How much longer do you need? If we are working as intended let us know so people can make up their minds as to what they are going to do with their guard. Many are looking for a glimmer of hope and are tiring of waiting.

I see that a monk complains that he is having difficulty tanking after LU17 and immediately gets a response from SOE, http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=81095 How long has it been since we have have heard anyone address our issues?

Guess that not only are we the Unsung Heroes but also the unanswered ones as well.

Gambrellin

60 Guardian

Leader of Fellowship of the Rok

Highkeep Server

Message Edited by Gambrellin on 12-06-2005 08:42 PM

Ladicav · 12-07-2005, 10:48 AM

What I notice is a distinct lack of any real input from Raijinn anymore other than just moderating posts. Part of me wants to believe that there maybe something in the works, but the silence from SOE reps on these boards in general leads me to believe there isn't any.

I think it is time for Raijinn, or any other spokesperson from SOE to come clean and deliver a message of yes there will be something done about the Guardian class in future, or no, we think they are working as intended now, so stop asking. I no longer care which one or the other it is now, but I also feel we have a right to know, instead of being treated like mushrooms. A solid yes or no will allow people to make an informed desicion as to what their next step will be. Time is precious, SOE should respect peoples time.

I think as a Guardian community that has been waiting this long deserves that at least.

So please, Raijinn, what is the word from the devs??

Grey-Cat · 12-07-2005, 05:49 PM

Although not a solid no, I think it is safe to assume that since the devs are avoiding guardians as if they had bird flu, then they aren't planning any changes. For whatever reason they decided to kill guardians. I officially gave up once I got my alt to a higher level than my former main.

Drulak · 12-07-2005, 06:13 PM

Aye quit whining all you pathetic guardians. So what that your class is broken , the whole game was broken , because guards were such super humans and you never saw any other classes moaning that guards were better than them did you .

Well now guards are a long way off at the bottom of the fighter tree and thats your punishment for being so super dooper and not telling us at SOE about how you could solo VOX etc

and because we are so mad at you for not telling us when you solo'd nek castle 2 at level 24th we have decided to totally ignore anything any guard has to say. so if you do not want to be ignored , go and re roll any other class ,

that way if you have a class issue you will get listened to.

/sacrcasm off.

I do believe that SOE are more than happy with the way that the fighters are. I do not think any big class altering

changes are on the horizon or will ever happen.

We may get the small - this CA now affects crushing instead of piercing damage etc. But thats it.

Raahl · 12-07-2005, 07:02 PM

Drulak wrote:

Aye quit whining all you pathetic guardians. So what that your class is broken , the whole game was broken , because guards were such super humans and you never saw any other classes moaning that guards were better than them did you .

Well now guards are a long way off at the bottom of the fighter tree and thats your punishment for being so super dooper and not telling us at SOE about how you could solo VOX etc

and because we are so mad at you for not telling us when you solo'd nek castle 2 at level 24th we have decided to totally ignore anything any guard has to say. so if you do not want to be ignored , go and re roll any other class ,

that way if you have a class issue you will get listened to.

/sacrcasm off.

I do believe that SOE are more than happy with the way that the fighters are. I do not think any big class altering

changes are on the horizon or will ever happen.

We may get the small - this CA now affects crushing instead of piercing damage etc. But thats it.

If what you believe is true Drulak, I see no reason for me to return to EQ2. Hopefully the powers that be come to their senses and fix the guardian issues.

germanicus2112 · 12-07-2005, 08:34 PM

Guards are, by design, meant to have pretty horrible DPS. We have since launch, day one. I had no expectation of being able to do any modicum of damage relative to other classes when choosing this character, it was pretty clearly implied by the available descriptions. IMO people expecting great solo'ing ability from a class that by design, is meant to function optimally at one end of the spectrum (defense/absorption of damage - mitigation), are completely missing the point of the class. Its unreasonable to expect us to take the least damage of all the classes in the game, and not also do the least damage. This is why our hate is primarily based on our array of taunts, not damage.

If you wanted to solo why did you choose a guardian? Our class is based upon the absorption of damage, both to ourselves and to group members, not putting out damage. Our protection spell lines are more effective than they have ever been. Guards are, and IMO should be, dependent upon others to put out the majority of damage.

I think the problems/complaints people are having revolve around the fact that all of the non-epic content in the game can now easily be tanked by non-guardians, and due to the guardians lack of non-defensive utility, are much less useful in most single group setups. Guards are essentially a niche class now, only necessary/desirable for content much more advanced than the level of the party engaging it, especially in regards to raiding content.

A fundamental change which has compounded the situation for guardians, is that in the past it was worth it (xp-wise) to go against mobs much much higher in level. Due to changes in the game, this is no longer the case. As such, in conjunction with the recent changes to other fighter classes which enable them to tank better, the overall demand/desire to have a guard in experience groups has dropped dramatically.

I do agree that our aggro has become somewhat suspect over the past several set of updates. Pre CU i never had many problems holding aggro in a raiding context. Even with several master end game taunts, I am more reliant on MT group setup for strong aggro (dirge/coercer). This however isnt unmanageable.

Krooner · 12-07-2005, 09:12 PM

For the past month or so my guardian has sat on the bench.

Our only other guardian has managed to find a few pity groups and with collection quests has leveled to 58.

Most of the time when we raid the MT is a Zerk or a Pally or an SK. There are many game dynamics that have changed and made our taunts and angro control TIER3 or lower certanly not T1

The only time he seems usefull is for taking the AOE or killer blow on the pull....So as a result we can add this ownious title to the Guardians reputation these days. Not only are we UNSUNG- UNANWSER we are also the 1% wonders.

WE only seem to really shine 1% of the time

Drulak · 12-07-2005, 10:14 PM

germanicus2112 wrote:

Guards are, by design, meant to have pretty horrible DPS. We have since launch, day one. I had no expectation of being able to do any modicum of damage relative to other classes when choosing this character, it was pretty clearly implied by the available descriptions. IMO people expecting great solo'ing ability from a class that by design, is meant to function optimally at one end of the spectrum (defense/absorption of damage - mitigation), are completely missing the point of the class. Its unreasonable to expect us to take the least damage of all the classes in the game, and not also do the least damage. This is why our hate is primarily based on our array of taunts, not damage.

If you wanted to solo why did you choose a guardian? Our class is based upon the absorption of damage, both to ourselves and to group members, not putting out damage. Our protection spell lines are more effective than they have ever been. Guards are, and IMO should be, dependent upon others to put out the majority of damage.

I think the problems/complaints people are having revolve around the fact that all of the non-epic content in the game can now easily be tanked by non-guardians, and due to the guardians lack of non-defensive utility, are much less useful in most single group setups. Guards are essentially a niche class now, only necessary/desirable for content much more advanced than the level of the party engaging it, especially in regards to raiding content.

A fundamental change which has compounded the situation for guardians, is that in the past it was worth it (xp-wise) to go against mobs much much higher in level. Due to changes in the game, this is no longer the case. As such, in conjunction with the recent changes to other fighter classes which enable them to tank better, the overall demand/desire to have a guard in experience groups has dropped dramatically.

I do agree that our aggro has become somewhat suspect over the past several set of updates. Pre CU i never had many problems holding aggro in a raiding context. Even with several master end game taunts, I am more reliant on MT group setup for strong aggro (dirge/coercer). This however isnt unmanageable.

sorry germanicus ,but if what you say is true then why did soe change everything because brawlers stated that they couldn't tank - you cannot change the whole game because one class is a superior tank and then say guards shouldn't be able to solo now. If we have to be equal - we should be equal whether that be tanking / soloing or utility.

I did not choose a guard to solo but since we are now equal tanks there are a lot fewer group openings and so i now solo alot .

I do agree with your theory about what a guard should be and it is indeed why i chose the guardian class ,but we all know things have changed and we are no longer a great meatshield standing at the front of the group - we are a tank like all other fighters - so all i want is if we are on a par in that field to be on apar in other fields.

I think the problem is people saying you chose a class because of blah , may well be true, but blah has now well and truly changed.

as for taking the least damage - that is up for debate , when i solo with my monk i take a lot less damage from mobs because they are dead alot quicker - so do guards take the less damage ?

Krooner · 12-07-2005, 10:34 PM

Drulak wrote: as for taking the least damage - that is up for debate , when i solo with my monk i take a lot less damage from mobs because they are dead alot quicker - so do guards take the less damage ?

IT comes down to a IF - WHEN statement.

IF the monk gets hit then he will take more damage from that hit than the guardian would take... but no problem.. he just heals himself.

WHEN the guardian gets hit he will take less damage that hit.. and the 25 consecutive hits as well.... then add them all up... who took more now?

Greater avoidance + Greater DPS = shorter fights with less chance of danger

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 12-07-2005 09:35 AM

a6eaq · 12-08-2005, 07:25 AM

IMHO SOE has chosen to turn their backs on those classes that are specialized. Warriors and Clerics in particular got beat up bad and most of the hybrid classes made out with LU13. It seems to me that SOE wants this game to favor them over us to keep pick-up groups going and make it easy to fill spots when someone leaves a group. After all, if their are 4 Tanks that can tank as well as Guardians and have much superior DPS and utility, who would you want to fill your groups Tanking spot if you were playing a DPSer? A Guardian/Zerker or some other class that will tank just as well and allow your group to kill faster and therfore gain XP faster? Hmmmm, let's see... I doubt you would pick a guardian first.

That being said, I don't think SOE will address any of our concerns except those to fix broken combat abilities. If I am wrong on anything I stated, I am sure some SOE moderator WILL point it out... if they even still read our forums, or care.

Terron · 12-08-2005, 06:44 PM

germanicus2112 wrote:
<>If you wanted to solo why did you choose a guardian? Our class is based upon the absorption of damage, both to ourselves and to group members, not putting out damage. Our protection spell lines are more effective than they have ever been. Guards are, and IMO should be, dependent upon others to put out the majority of damage. <>

I expected from the description that a guardian would have sufficient extra defense compared to a berserker to be able to have at least the same chances of winning a fight solo, even if it took longer, and that extra defense would also increase survival chances when things do go wrong. Since killing enemies quickers is also a form of defense in that it gives them less chance to harm you, the defensive advantage needs to be quite large, but so far it appears to be small. It just about has to be if all fighters are to be able to tank equally, since defense is so important in that role. When I decided I wanted to be a guardian I did not know what was meant by tank within EQ2. Now I know, but it is not a role that appeals to me.

12-07-2005, 06:13 PM	#4
Drulak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	Aye quit whining all you pathetic guardians. So what that your class is broken , the whole game was broken , because guards were such super humans and you never saw any other classes moaning that guards were better than them did you . Well now guards are a long way off at the bottom of the fighter tree and thats your punishment for being so super dooper and not telling us at SOE about how you could solo VOX etc and because we are so mad at you for not telling us when you solo'd nek castle 2 at level 24th we have decided to totally ignore anything any guard has to say. so if you do not want to be ignored , go and re roll any other class , that way if you have a class issue you will get listened to. /sacrcasm off. I do believe that SOE are more than happy with the way that the fighters are. I do not think any big class altering changes are on the horizon or will ever happen. We may get the small - this CA now affects crushing instead of piercing damage etc. But thats it. __________________ Zobiex 90 Bezerker -EX-Guardian Cyan 42 EX-provisioner Drulakx 90Reinstated EX-Alchemist Tattood 38Reinstated EX-Monk Zobios 90 Warlock

12-07-2005, 07:02 PM	#5
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Drulak wrote: Aye quit whining all you pathetic guardians. So what that your class is broken , the whole game was broken , because guards were such super humans and you never saw any other classes moaning that guards were better than them did you . Well now guards are a long way off at the bottom of the fighter tree and thats your punishment for being so super dooper and not telling us at SOE about how you could solo VOX etc and because we are so mad at you for not telling us when you solo'd nek castle 2 at level 24th we have decided to totally ignore anything any guard has to say. so if you do not want to be ignored , go and re roll any other class , that way if you have a class issue you will get listened to. /sacrcasm off. I do believe that SOE are more than happy with the way that the fighters are. I do not think any big class altering changes are on the horizon or will ever happen. We may get the small - this CA now affects crushing instead of piercing damage etc. But thats it. If what you believe is true Drulak, I see no reason for me to return to EQ2. Hopefully the powers that be come to their senses and fix the guardian issues. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

12-07-2005, 08:34 PM	#6
germanicus2112 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	Guards are, by design, meant to have pretty horrible DPS. We have since launch, day one. I had no expectation of being able to do any modicum of damage relative to other classes when choosing this character, it was pretty clearly implied by the available descriptions. IMO people expecting great solo'ing ability from a class that by design, is meant to function optimally at one end of the spectrum (defense/absorption of damage - mitigation), are completely missing the point of the class. Its unreasonable to expect us to take the least damage of all the classes in the game, and not also do the least damage. This is why our hate is primarily based on our array of taunts, not damage. If you wanted to solo why did you choose a guardian? Our class is based upon the absorption of damage, both to ourselves and to group members, not putting out damage. Our protection spell lines are more effective than they have ever been. Guards are, and IMO should be, dependent upon others to put out the majority of damage. I think the problems/complaints people are having revolve around the fact that all of the non-epic content in the game can now easily be tanked by non-guardians, and due to the guardians lack of non-defensive utility, are much less useful in most single group setups. Guards are essentially a niche class now, only necessary/desirable for content much more advanced than the level of the party engaging it, especially in regards to raiding content. A fundamental change which has compounded the situation for guardians, is that in the past it was worth it (xp-wise) to go against mobs much much higher in level. Due to changes in the game, this is no longer the case. As such, in conjunction with the recent changes to other fighter classes which enable them to tank better, the overall demand/desire to have a guard in experience groups has dropped dramatically. I do agree that our aggro has become somewhat suspect over the past several set of updates. Pre CU i never had many problems holding aggro in a raiding context. Even with several master end game taunts, I am more reliant on MT group setup for strong aggro (dirge/coercer). This however isnt unmanageable. __________________ Romonius Guild Leader of Iconoclast www.Iconoclastguild.com

12-07-2005, 10:14 PM	#8
Drulak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	germanicus2112 wrote: Guards are, by design, meant to have pretty horrible DPS. We have since launch, day one. I had no expectation of being able to do any modicum of damage relative to other classes when choosing this character, it was pretty clearly implied by the available descriptions. IMO people expecting great solo'ing ability from a class that by design, is meant to function optimally at one end of the spectrum (defense/absorption of damage - mitigation), are completely missing the point of the class. Its unreasonable to expect us to take the least damage of all the classes in the game, and not also do the least damage. This is why our hate is primarily based on our array of taunts, not damage. If you wanted to solo why did you choose a guardian? Our class is based upon the absorption of damage, both to ourselves and to group members, not putting out damage. Our protection spell lines are more effective than they have ever been. Guards are, and IMO should be, dependent upon others to put out the majority of damage. I think the problems/complaints people are having revolve around the fact that all of the non-epic content in the game can now easily be tanked by non-guardians, and due to the guardians lack of non-defensive utility, are much less useful in most single group setups. Guards are essentially a niche class now, only necessary/desirable for content much more advanced than the level of the party engaging it, especially in regards to raiding content. A fundamental change which has compounded the situation for guardians, is that in the past it was worth it (xp-wise) to go against mobs much much higher in level. Due to changes in the game, this is no longer the case. As such, in conjunction with the recent changes to other fighter classes which enable them to tank better, the overall demand/desire to have a guard in experience groups has dropped dramatically. I do agree that our aggro has become somewhat suspect over the past several set of updates. Pre CU i never had many problems holding aggro in a raiding context. Even with several master end game taunts, I am more reliant on MT group setup for strong aggro (dirge/coercer). This however isnt unmanageable. sorry germanicus ,but if what you say is true then why did soe change everything because brawlers stated that they couldn't tank - you cannot change the whole game because one class is a superior tank and then say guards shouldn't be able to solo now. If we have to be equal - we should be equal whether that be tanking / soloing or utility. I did not choose a guard to solo but since we are now equal tanks there are a lot fewer group openings and so i now solo alot . I do agree with your theory about what a guard should be and it is indeed why i chose the guardian class ,but we all know things have changed and we are no longer a great meatshield standing at the front of the group - we are a tank like all other fighters - so all i want is if we are on a par in that field to be on apar in other fields. I think the problem is people saying you chose a class because of blah , may well be true, but blah has now well and truly changed. as for taking the least damage - that is up for debate , when i solo with my monk i take a lot less damage from mobs because they are dead alot quicker - so do guards take the less damage ? __________________ Zobiex 90 Bezerker -EX-Guardian Cyan 42 EX-provisioner Drulakx 90Reinstated EX-Alchemist Tattood 38Reinstated EX-Monk Zobios 90 Warlock

12-08-2005, 06:44 PM	#11
Terron Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, England Posts: 2,309	germanicus2112 wrote: <>If you wanted to solo why did you choose a guardian? Our class is based upon the absorption of damage, both to ourselves and to group members, not putting out damage. Our protection spell lines are more effective than they have ever been. Guards are, and IMO should be, dependent upon others to put out the majority of damage. <> I expected from the description that a guardian would have sufficient extra defense compared to a berserker to be able to have at least the same chances of winning a fight solo, even if it took longer, and that extra defense would also increase survival chances when things do go wrong. Since killing enemies quickers is also a form of defense in that it gives them less chance to harm you, the defensive advantage needs to be quite large, but so far it appears to be small. It just about has to be if all fighters are to be able to tank equally, since defense is so important in that role. When I decided I wanted to be a guardian I did not know what was meant by tank within EQ2. Now I know, but it is not a role that appeals to me. __________________

12-07-2005, 09:39 AM	#1
Gambrellin Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16	Well after months of visiting this forum looking for any official responses concerning our issues, I have given up all hope that anything will change and that yes things must be working as intended. Nice for SOE to string us along with the "were looking into it" responses. I see post after post on this forum of guards looking for any kind of official word as to what if anything is being done to guardians, to which there is no other reply than the "were looking into it". How much longer do you need? If we are working as intended let us know so people can make up their minds as to what they are going to do with their guard. Many are looking for a glimmer of hope and are tiring of waiting. I see that a monk complains that he is having difficulty tanking after LU17 and immediately gets a response from SOE, http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=81095 How long has it been since we have have heard anyone address our issues? Guess that not only are we the Unsung Heroes but also the unanswered ones as well. Gambrellin 60 Guardian Leader of Fellowship of the Rok Highkeep Server Message Edited by Gambrellin on 12-06-2005 08:42 PM

12-07-2005, 10:48 AM	#2
Ladicav Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 212	What I notice is a distinct lack of any real input from Raijinn anymore other than just moderating posts. Part of me wants to believe that there maybe something in the works, but the silence from SOE reps on these boards in general leads me to believe there isn't any. I think it is time for Raijinn, or any other spokesperson from SOE to come clean and deliver a message of yes there will be something done about the Guardian class in future, or no, we think they are working as intended now, so stop asking. I no longer care which one or the other it is now, but I also feel we have a right to know, instead of being treated like mushrooms. A solid yes or no will allow people to make an informed desicion as to what their next step will be. Time is precious, SOE should respect peoples time. I think as a Guardian community that has been waiting this long deserves that at least. So please, Raijinn, what is the word from the devs??

12-07-2005, 05:49 PM	#3
Grey-Cat Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 65	Although not a solid no, I think it is safe to assume that since the devs are avoiding guardians as if they had bird flu, then they aren't planning any changes. For whatever reason they decided to kill guardians. I officially gave up once I got my alt to a higher level than my former main.

12-07-2005, 09:12 PM	#7
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	For the past month or so my guardian has sat on the bench. Our only other guardian has managed to find a few pity groups and with collection quests has leveled to 58. Most of the time when we raid the MT is a Zerk or a Pally or an SK. There are many game dynamics that have changed and made our taunts and angro control TIER3 or lower certanly not T1 The only time he seems usefull is for taking the AOE or killer blow on the pull....So as a result we can add this ownious title to the Guardians reputation these days. Not only are we UNSUNG- UNANWSER we are also the 1% wonders. WE only seem to really shine 1% of the time

12-07-2005, 10:34 PM	#9
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Drulak wrote: as for taking the least damage - that is up for debate , when i solo with my monk i take a lot less damage from mobs because they are dead alot quicker - so do guards take the less damage ? IT comes down to a IF - WHEN statement. IF the monk gets hit then he will take more damage from that hit than the guardian would take... but no problem.. he just heals himself. WHEN the guardian gets hit he will take less damage that hit.. and the 25 consecutive hits as well.... then add them all up... who took more now? Greater avoidance + Greater DPS = shorter fights with less chance of danger Message Edited by Warbird1 on 12-07-2005 09:35 AM

12-08-2005, 07:25 AM	#10
a6eaq Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	IMHO SOE has chosen to turn their backs on those classes that are specialized. Warriors and Clerics in particular got beat up bad and most of the hybrid classes made out with LU13. It seems to me that SOE wants this game to favor them over us to keep pick-up groups going and make it easy to fill spots when someone leaves a group. After all, if their are 4 Tanks that can tank as well as Guardians and have much superior DPS and utility, who would you want to fill your groups Tanking spot if you were playing a DPSer? A Guardian/Zerker or some other class that will tank just as well and allow your group to kill faster and therfore gain XP faster? Hmmmm, let's see... I doubt you would pick a guardian first. That being said, I don't think SOE will address any of our concerns except those to fix broken combat abilities. If I am wrong on anything I stated, I am sure some SOE moderator WILL point it out... if they even still read our forums, or care.