What makes a better tank, a Guardian or a Pally

NerdSyst · 10-22-2005, 11:23 PM

I am not worried about DPS, and I don't mind grouping untill level 60. I am curious however, what makes a better tank... a Guardian or a Pally? I have a level 20 pally and so far because of my ward and self heals; I seem to be better for the healers at the moment. But later on are Guardians a better tanker? It seems to me everyone chosing this class is for DPS; but I would like to do it simply for tanking in groups, so what's everyones opinion. Are guardians better tanks?

EvilIguana9 · 10-23-2005, 12:13 AM

The system has been shaken up a bit with LU 13, but as far as paladins or guardians and tanking I think it depends on the situation. Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. Paladins have wards and heals but these are not reliable in all situations. Spells can be easily interupted, and the amount they heal is trivial on a raid mob. We pallies also get interupts that work nicely on single target heroic and lower encounters, but are again useless on raids. Paladins do have one very very nice feature that needs to be mentioned, and that is our hate siphon spell line, with which we can really lock down aggro, but without which we can't get aggro for beans. I'd say that in group situations the paladin would probably be better due to the res and heals. In a raid we are useless atm, wheras guardians still have 1 slot reserved per raid on those raids where the mob would one shot anyone else. If you really want a tank atm best bet would be bruiser. They are the current flavor of the month overbalanced class, but nobody knows how long that will last. Everyone hopes that eventually it will come down to the specific encounter and player skill rather than which class is better.

TunaBoo · 10-23-2005, 02:00 AM

Paladins can hack their 40% hate buff and get infinite aggo and never need to even push taunt.. so pally for the win.

EvilIguana9 · 10-23-2005, 04:35 AM

TunaBoo wrote:Paladins can hack their 40% hate buff and get infinite aggo and never need to even push taunt.. so pally for the win.
Wow, there is a *supposed* bug with a skill and that is what you consider our class defining ability? A) IF it is true, then it is a BUG that people are EXPLOITING. B) I have heard that even with amends on more than one person it only works for one. But theres no easy to tell if that is true or not.

TunaBoo · 10-23-2005, 04:51 AM

Yes, you can hack ammends on the entire group and never have to taunt. Try it.

DaxxDea · 10-24-2005, 01:16 AM

EvilIguana966 wrote:
Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin.

We have better mitigation? how do you figure this? maybe your refering to fact we can have more mit for 30secs every 3mins? we use same armor and all fighters defense stances give same amount of mit and those are only forms of permanent mitigation we get.

More avoidance? at master2 my defense buff gives me an extra 3% avoidance assuming you have no agi or defense buffs then ya we have 3% more avoidance yipee.

We got a 450hp buff. I know paladins get a hp buff also. I know this cause I remember buying the master1 of it for a guildmate.

More dps? I highly doubt it. Any large group encounter youll do more dps for sure I know you guys have a really nice ae

I have heard with master1 defense stance and their other wisdom buff a paladin can gain 260 extra wisdom thats alot of resists for tanking. Also they get 2 resists on their defense stance where all other fighters get 1 type of resist. So paladins have same permanent mit and more wisdom those are 2 most important factors for taking dmg

Belgor · 10-24-2005, 01:58 AM

DaxxDeath wrote:

EvilIguana966 wrote:
Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin.

We have better mitigation? how do you figure this? maybe your refering to fact we can have more mit for 30secs every 3mins? we use same armor and all fighters defense stances give same amount of mit and those are only forms of permanent mitigation we get.

More avoidance? at master2 my defense buff gives me an extra 3% avoidance assuming you have no agi or defense buffs then ya we have 3% more avoidance yipee.

We got a 450hp buff. I know paladins get a hp buff also. I know this cause I remember buying the master1 of it for a guildmate.

More dps? I highly doubt it. Any large group encounter youll do more dps for sure I know you guys have a really nice ae

I have heard with master1 defense stance and their other wisdom buff a paladin can gain 260 extra wisdom thats alot of resists for tanking. Also they get 2 resists on their defense stance where all other fighters get 1 type of resist. So paladins have same permanent mit and more wisdom those are 2 most important factors for taking dmg

Guardians have more avoidance advantage than that to paladins. First, you get + str, agi, sta from your class, we get str, sta, wis. Then you have a +defense buff, and you get both +parry and +defense from you defensive stance, paladins only get +defense from the stance.

You have a 450 hp buff, paladins have a 200hp buff, and guardians gets more hit points per stamina compared to a paladin. I think its 4.5 hp per stamina for paladin and 4.75 or 5.0 for guardian. Guardians also get a self +stamina buff, which paladins do not have.

dps can be debated. Paladins might have better AEs, we have 3 of them (one crappy one). But all in all I think its a pretty close contest.

Message Edited by Belgorim on 10-23-2005 11:59 PM

Yrield · 10-24-2005, 04:22 AM

DaxxDeath wrote:

EvilIguana966 wrote:Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin.

We have better mitigation? how do you figure this? maybe your refering to fact we can have more mit for 30secs every 3mins? we use same armor and all fighters defense stances give same amount of mit and those are only forms of permanent mitigation we get. No idea, short term miti buff i guess

More avoidance? at master2 my defense buff gives me an extra 3% avoidance assuming you have no agi or defense buffs then ya we have 3% more avoidance yipee.

Paladin trade parry buff for wisdom buff on the defensive stance, the end result is around 7 to 15% more avoidance for guardian

We got a 450hp buff. I know paladins get a hp buff also. I know this cause I remember buying the master1 of it for a guildmate.

251hp self-only at adept3, no STA buff and the lowest HP:STA ratio

More dps? I highly doubt it. Any large group encounter youll do more dps for sure I know you guys have a really nice ae

probably the same DPS over time for the 2 class

I have heard with master1 defense stance and their other wisdom buff a paladin can gain 260 extra wisdom thats alot of resists for tanking. Also they get 2 resists on their defense stance where all other fighters get 1 type of resist. So paladins have same permanent mit and more wisdom those are 2 most important factors for taking dmg Faithful Benediction Master1 buff 144 wis and crusade Master1 buff 41 wis, 185 Wis total not 260. So paladin have the same permanent mit, more resists and less avoidance.

SOE's vision for the defensive tank: for physical damage: guard>pally for arcane damage: pally>guard Time will tell if soe's vision is real or just another dream...

EvilIguana9 · 10-24-2005, 04:56 AM

I'd like to know how I can get an extra 260 wisdom. Granted I'm only 51 but even if i were 60 and fully mastered out I don't see where that comes from. I can think of two buffs that give wisdom, defensive stance and the crusade line. Most you can get is 150ish wis from those. And we get 2 resists in our defensive stance because magic and divine are both less commonly used by mobs.

Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on 10-23-2005 08:58 PM

MrDiz · 10-24-2005, 01:00 PM

Currently since lu15 I would suggest if you want the hands down best tank you should take a SK. Dont ask me why, im a templar who has different tanks day to day and right now my utter favourite is our SK. I can pretty much go AF and AFK and wander back slowly if I hear combat. He probably wont need me but best to be safe if he gets adds SMILEY

However this may change next week or next month. Right now nothing in everquest has any consistence. For all we know next months best tank will be a warlock.

Sasaki Koji · 10-24-2005, 02:47 PM

MrDizzi wrote:
Currently since lu15 I would suggest if you want the hands down best tank you should take a SK. Dont ask me why, im a templar who has different tanks day to day and right now my utter favourite is our SK. I can pretty much go AF and AFK and wander back slowly if I hear combat. He probably wont need me but best to be safe if he gets adds

However this may change next week or next month. Right now nothing in everquest has any consistence. For all we know next months best tank will be a warlock.

/cheer

Sasaki Koji · 10-24-2005, 02:58 PM

EvilIguana966 wrote:
The system has been shaken up a bit with LU 13, but as far as paladins or guardians and tanking I think it depends on the situation. Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. Paladins have wards and heals but these are not reliable in all situations. Spells can be easily interupted, and the amount they heal is trivial on a raid mob. We pallies also get interupts that work nicely on single target heroic and lower encounters, but are again useless on raids. Paladins do have one very very nice feature that needs to be mentioned, and that is our hate siphon spell line, with which we can really lock down aggro, but without which we can't get aggro for beans. I'd say that in group situations the paladin would probably be better due to the res and heals. In a raid we are useless atm, wheras guardians still have 1 slot reserved per raid on those raids where the mob would one shot anyone else.

If you really want a tank atm best bet would be bruiser. They are the current flavor of the month overbalanced class, but nobody knows how long that will last. Everyone hopes that eventually it will come down to the specific encounter and player skill rather than which class is better.

Guardians dont have Higher Mitigation than a paladin or any other plate tank. Even Templars and inquis would have as much mitigation unless the Plate tank was in Defensive stance EDIT: Thats if they wore regular armor instead of chosing whatever has the most wis SMILEY

END EDT. And guardians certainly dont have as much DPS Unless thier in Offensive stance and Paladin is in Defensive.

Also heals and wards dont get interrupted as often as you think. Ive done fine against multiple mobs and my ward doesnt get interrupted. If yourse is getting constantly intterupted making it forever uncastable, then that deserves a /bug.

The amount your spells heal is never trivial. Its more than a guardian can do right? you can heal yourself by 700, 1500, and 1000 guard can heal himself by 0, you can ward yourself by 700, guard can ward himself 0. So dont call your healse useless. I fought an epic mob and my ward successfully lowered the damage the mob could do to me, helping the healers heal me, as well as my lifetaps (Im a SK btw, but vouching for you cause you dont suck as much as you think)

Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on 10-24-2005 03:59 AM

10-23-2005, 02:00 AM	#3
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Paladins can hack their 40% hate buff and get infinite aggo and never need to even push taunt.. so pally for the win. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-23-2005, 04:35 AM	#4
EvilIguana9 General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 477	TunaBoo wrote:Paladins can hack their 40% hate buff and get infinite aggo and never need to even push taunt.. so pally for the win. Wow, there is a supposed bug with a skill and that is what you consider our class defining ability? A) IF it is true, then it is a BUG that people are EXPLOITING. B) I have heard that even with amends on more than one person it only works for one. But theres no easy to tell if that is true or not.

10-23-2005, 04:51 AM	#5
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Yes, you can hack ammends on the entire group and never have to taunt. Try it. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-24-2005, 01:16 AM	#6
DaxxDea Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	EvilIguana966 wrote: Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. We have better mitigation? how do you figure this? maybe your refering to fact we can have more mit for 30secs every 3mins? we use same armor and all fighters defense stances give same amount of mit and those are only forms of permanent mitigation we get. More avoidance? at master2 my defense buff gives me an extra 3% avoidance assuming you have no agi or defense buffs then ya we have 3% more avoidance yipee. We got a 450hp buff. I know paladins get a hp buff also. I know this cause I remember buying the master1 of it for a guildmate. More dps? I highly doubt it. Any large group encounter youll do more dps for sure I know you guys have a really nice ae I have heard with master1 defense stance and their other wisdom buff a paladin can gain 260 extra wisdom thats alot of resists for tanking. Also they get 2 resists on their defense stance where all other fighters get 1 type of resist. So paladins have same permanent mit and more wisdom those are 2 most important factors for taking dmg __________________ Retired - Bashm Guud - Ogre - Guardian - Grobb Leader of Malice First 50 Guardian World Wide First 60 Fighter World Wide

10-24-2005, 01:58 AM	#7
Belgor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 180	DaxxDeath wrote: EvilIguana966 wrote: Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. We have better mitigation? how do you figure this? maybe your refering to fact we can have more mit for 30secs every 3mins? we use same armor and all fighters defense stances give same amount of mit and those are only forms of permanent mitigation we get. More avoidance? at master2 my defense buff gives me an extra 3% avoidance assuming you have no agi or defense buffs then ya we have 3% more avoidance yipee. We got a 450hp buff. I know paladins get a hp buff also. I know this cause I remember buying the master1 of it for a guildmate. More dps? I highly doubt it. Any large group encounter youll do more dps for sure I know you guys have a really nice ae I have heard with master1 defense stance and their other wisdom buff a paladin can gain 260 extra wisdom thats alot of resists for tanking. Also they get 2 resists on their defense stance where all other fighters get 1 type of resist. So paladins have same permanent mit and more wisdom those are 2 most important factors for taking dmg Guardians have more avoidance advantage than that to paladins. First, you get + str, agi, sta from your class, we get str, sta, wis. Then you have a +defense buff, and you get both +parry and +defense from you defensive stance, paladins only get +defense from the stance. You have a 450 hp buff, paladins have a 200hp buff, and guardians gets more hit points per stamina compared to a paladin. I think its 4.5 hp per stamina for paladin and 4.75 or 5.0 for guardian. Guardians also get a self +stamina buff, which paladins do not have. dps can be debated. Paladins might have better AEs, we have 3 of them (one crappy one). But all in all I think its a pretty close contest. Message Edited by Belgorim on 10-23-2005 11:59 PM

10-22-2005, 11:23 PM	#1
NerdSyst Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2	I am not worried about DPS, and I don't mind grouping untill level 60. I am curious however, what makes a better tank... a Guardian or a Pally? I have a level 20 pally and so far because of my ward and self heals; I seem to be better for the healers at the moment. But later on are Guardians a better tanker? It seems to me everyone chosing this class is for DPS; but I would like to do it simply for tanking in groups, so what's everyones opinion. Are guardians better tanks?

10-23-2005, 12:13 AM	#2
EvilIguana9 General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 477	The system has been shaken up a bit with LU 13, but as far as paladins or guardians and tanking I think it depends on the situation. Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. Paladins have wards and heals but these are not reliable in all situations. Spells can be easily interupted, and the amount they heal is trivial on a raid mob. We pallies also get interupts that work nicely on single target heroic and lower encounters, but are again useless on raids. Paladins do have one very very nice feature that needs to be mentioned, and that is our hate siphon spell line, with which we can really lock down aggro, but without which we can't get aggro for beans. I'd say that in group situations the paladin would probably be better due to the res and heals. In a raid we are useless atm, wheras guardians still have 1 slot reserved per raid on those raids where the mob would one shot anyone else. If you really want a tank atm best bet would be bruiser. They are the current flavor of the month overbalanced class, but nobody knows how long that will last. Everyone hopes that eventually it will come down to the specific encounter and player skill rather than which class is better.

10-24-2005, 04:22 AM	#8
Yrield General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 267	DaxxDeath wrote: EvilIguana966 wrote:Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. We have better mitigation? how do you figure this? maybe your refering to fact we can have more mit for 30secs every 3mins? we use same armor and all fighters defense stances give same amount of mit and those are only forms of permanent mitigation we get. No idea, short term miti buff i guess More avoidance? at master2 my defense buff gives me an extra 3% avoidance assuming you have no agi or defense buffs then ya we have 3% more avoidance yipee. Paladin trade parry buff for wisdom buff on the defensive stance, the end result is around 7 to 15% more avoidance for guardian We got a 450hp buff. I know paladins get a hp buff also. I know this cause I remember buying the master1 of it for a guildmate. 251hp self-only at adept3, no STA buff and the lowest HP:STA ratio More dps? I highly doubt it. Any large group encounter youll do more dps for sure I know you guys have a really nice ae probably the same DPS over time for the 2 class I have heard with master1 defense stance and their other wisdom buff a paladin can gain 260 extra wisdom thats alot of resists for tanking. Also they get 2 resists on their defense stance where all other fighters get 1 type of resist. So paladins have same permanent mit and more wisdom those are 2 most important factors for taking dmg Faithful Benediction Master1 buff 144 wis and crusade Master1 buff 41 wis, 185 Wis total not 260. So paladin have the same permanent mit, more resists and less avoidance. SOE's vision for the defensive tank: for physical damage: guard>pally for arcane damage: pally>guard Time will tell if soe's vision is real or just another dream...

10-24-2005, 04:56 AM	#9
EvilIguana9 General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 477	I'd like to know how I can get an extra 260 wisdom. Granted I'm only 51 but even if i were 60 and fully mastered out I don't see where that comes from. I can think of two buffs that give wisdom, defensive stance and the crusade line. Most you can get is 150ish wis from those. And we get 2 resists in our defensive stance because magic and divine are both less commonly used by mobs. Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on 10-23-2005 08:58 PM

10-24-2005, 01:00 PM	#10
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Currently since lu15 I would suggest if you want the hands down best tank you should take a SK. Dont ask me why, im a templar who has different tanks day to day and right now my utter favourite is our SK. I can pretty much go AF and AFK and wander back slowly if I hear combat. He probably wont need me but best to be safe if he gets adds However this may change next week or next month. Right now nothing in everquest has any consistence. For all we know next months best tank will be a warlock. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-24-2005, 02:47 PM	#11
Sasaki Koji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 283	MrDizzi wrote: Currently since lu15 I would suggest if you want the hands down best tank you should take a SK. Dont ask me why, im a templar who has different tanks day to day and right now my utter favourite is our SK. I can pretty much go AF and AFK and wander back slowly if I hear combat. He probably wont need me but best to be safe if he gets adds However this may change next week or next month. Right now nothing in everquest has any consistence. For all we know next months best tank will be a warlock. /cheer

10-24-2005, 02:58 PM	#12
Sasaki Koji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 283	EvilIguana966 wrote: The system has been shaken up a bit with LU 13, but as far as paladins or guardians and tanking I think it depends on the situation. Guardians have better mitigation, avoidance, hit points and DPS than a paladin. Paladins have wards and heals but these are not reliable in all situations. Spells can be easily interupted, and the amount they heal is trivial on a raid mob. We pallies also get interupts that work nicely on single target heroic and lower encounters, but are again useless on raids. Paladins do have one very very nice feature that needs to be mentioned, and that is our hate siphon spell line, with which we can really lock down aggro, but without which we can't get aggro for beans. I'd say that in group situations the paladin would probably be better due to the res and heals. In a raid we are useless atm, wheras guardians still have 1 slot reserved per raid on those raids where the mob would one shot anyone else. If you really want a tank atm best bet would be bruiser. They are the current flavor of the month overbalanced class, but nobody knows how long that will last. Everyone hopes that eventually it will come down to the specific encounter and player skill rather than which class is better. Guardians dont have Higher Mitigation than a paladin or any other plate tank. Even Templars and inquis would have as much mitigation unless the Plate tank was in Defensive stance EDIT: Thats if they wore regular armor instead of chosing whatever has the most wis END EDT. And guardians certainly dont have as much DPS Unless thier in Offensive stance and Paladin is in Defensive. Also heals and wards dont get interrupted as often as you think. Ive done fine against multiple mobs and my ward doesnt get interrupted. If yourse is getting constantly intterupted making it forever uncastable, then that deserves a /bug. The amount your spells heal is never trivial. Its more than a guardian can do right? you can heal yourself by 700, 1500, and 1000 guard can heal himself by 0, you can ward yourself by 700, guard can ward himself 0. So dont call your healse useless. I fought an epic mob and my ward successfully lowered the damage the mob could do to me, helping the healers heal me, as well as my lifetaps (Im a SK btw, but vouching for you cause you dont suck as much as you think) Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on 10-24-2005 03:59 AM