bugs since revamp

[JNewby]

ok so grouped with a monk today with my 51 dirge.. and he was 55 and doing about 350-400 dps... when is this going ot be fixed? he had close mit to my guard.. my guard ahs abotu 3000 he had 2300 16% more avoidance heals.. yadda yadda... when is monk tanking going to be downgraded big time or dps downgraded... cause uhh SOE if you didnt notice 350-400 is assasian dps... and they arenta assasians... this is totally wrong a bug and needs to be fixed.. come one SOE this long after launch and this stuff is still broke...

 

[Gaige]

Why is this in the guardian forums?

[ShinigamiD]

Why are YOU in the guardian forums?

[Gaige]

Responding to a thread asking for a monk nerf.

[JNewby]

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ShinigamiDuo wrote:
Why are YOU in the guardian forums?

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haha

 

[JNewby]

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Gaige wrote:
Why is this in the guardian forums?

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I dont care where it goes... I suppose I was to chicken to post it in the monk forums... but I believe its pretty true and it is about the blance of tanks so

 

[Gaige]

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JNewby wrote:

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Gaige wrote:
Why is this in the guardian forums?

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I dont care where it goes... I suppose I was to chicken to post it in the monk forums... but I believe its pretty true and it is about the blance of tanks so

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Well it was posted by a dirge about the monk subclass.  It has nothing to do with guardians.  If its about combat put it there, if its about monks put it there.  I just don't see why its in this forum.  /shrug

[Kain Hammersmith]

Gaige, to be fair, if you were on the loosing side of a revamp and a guardian was doing more DPS, had better utility, and had near the avoidance but much higher MIT, then you would be asking for us to be nerfed. Oh yeah you did and you succeded. WE dont want anyone to be nerfed, we just dont want to be the worst class to play. I solo or small group with friends, and I dont feel like I am helping the group anymore, the swashy tanks better then me. Please Gaige understand that there is another perspective other than yours. You are not the only person that this game is designed for.

[Gaige]

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Kain Hammersmith wrote:
Gaige, to be fair, if you were on the loosing side of a revamp and a guardian was doing more DPS, had better utility, and had near the avoidance but much higher MIT, then you would be asking for us to be nerfed. Oh yeah you did and you succeded. WE dont want anyone to be nerfed, we just dont want to be the worst class to play. I solo or small group with friends, and I dont feel like I am helping the group anymore, the swashy tanks better then me. Please Gaige understand that there is another perspective other than yours. You are not the only person that this game is designed for.

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I understand that.  Which is why I never asked for you to be nerfed.

I asked for reactive hate to be fixed.

I asked for defense to affect something other than avoidance, since guardians were avoiding better than avoidance classes.

I asked for the HP buff stacking to be fixed.

I asked for mitigation and avoidance to be realigned:  Avoidance tanks should avoid, mitigation tanks should mitigate.  The seperation should be evident.

All in all I just asked for the game to be fixed and not so trivial.  I like a challenge and I didn't like a broken class shifting my class into an entirely different purpose.

I hope they can make fixes that enable you to have fun and feel useful.

[Airog]

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Gaige wrote:

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Kain Hammersmith wrote:
Gaige, to be fair, if you were on the loosing side of a revamp and a guardian was doing more DPS, had better utility, and had near the avoidance but much higher MIT, then you would be asking for us to be nerfed. Oh yeah you did and you succeded. WE dont want anyone to be nerfed, we just dont want to be the worst class to play. I solo or small group with friends, and I dont feel like I am helping the group anymore, the swashy tanks better then me. Please Gaige understand that there is another perspective other than yours. You are not the only person that this game is designed for.

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I understand that.  Which is why I never asked for you to be nerfed.

I asked for reactive hate to be fixed.

I asked for defense to affect something other than avoidance, since guardians were avoiding better than avoidance classes.

I asked for the HP buff stacking to be fixed.

I asked for mitigation and avoidance to be realigned:  Avoidance tanks should avoid, mitigation tanks should mitigate.  The seperation should be evident.

All in all I just asked for the game to be fixed and not so trivial.  I like a challenge and I didn't like a broken class shifting my class into an entirely different purpose.

I hope they can make fixes that enable you to have fun and feel useful.

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Asked for guardian to be made worse (even though they were overpowered) is asking for a nerf.

Also, would just like to say, we were not avoiding better then avoidance classes, you yourself admitted that to me awhile back. Please refrain from such a blatenly bad statement (and I will try to do the same). =P

[JNewby]

**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**

Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 10-20-2005 10:33 AM

[Gaige]

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Airoguy wrote:

Asked for guardian to be made worse (even though they were overpowered) is asking for a nerf.

Also, would just like to say, we were not avoiding better then avoidance classes, you yourself admitted that to me awhile back. Please refrain from such a blatenly bad statement (and I will try to do the same). =P

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Asking for a broken mechanic to be fixed, is asking for it to be fixed.

I never admitted anything even like that to you.  You *were* avoiding better than avoidance classes.  Since we couldn't see anything over 100% but you had more defensive buffs than other classes.

[Kain Hammersmith]

Ok, that was a good response Gaige.

I have never done a true raid, and could care less to do them. I like to see the content and have a good time with friends. I have retired my Guard because my alts are way more fun now. This has made my normal group members mad because now they are left looking for a new group member to play with on the mains. Pally, Swash, and Fury is what they play and pre-vamp me (the Guard). This group was great and we had a good time. Now I feel like I am holding them back because another friend (Bruiser) is a much better tank and I have nothing to offer the group. I have no DPS, nor do I have any utility.

So I ask you Gaige, from everything you have read about Guards, what would you chage to make us happy?

I think we need increase in DPS, Tower Shield improvement, and higher avoidance (too be fair the MIT difference between avoidance tanks and MIT tanks should not be so close), or higher MIT to make up the difference ( since our avoidance is horiable).

This debate has gone on and on, and will go on and on for the life of the game, but I never wanted to be the best tank, I just wanted to be a value to the group.

[Gaige]

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JNewby wrote:

by a dirge?!?! I have a 60 guardian.. hense me always here complaining about how they are no good... dirge is my alt

either way I would still like to know when this iwll be fixed

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Yes, you said "I was with a monk today on my 51 dirge".

You were posting about an experience playing the game while on your dirge character.

It had nothing to do with your guardian.

I have an enchanter alt, if I post problems about that character or things I experience while on that character, do they go in the monk forum because I have a 58 monk?

Message Edited by Gaige on 10-20-2005 10:28 AM

[JNewby]

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Gaige wrote:

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Airoguy wrote:

Asked for guardian to be made worse (even though they were overpowered) is asking for a nerf.

Also, would just like to say, we were not avoiding better then avoidance classes, you yourself admitted that to me awhile back. Please refrain from such a blatenly bad statement (and I will try to do the same). =P

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Asking for a broken mechanic to be fixed, is asking for it to be fixed.

I never admitted anything even like that to you.  You *were* avoiding better than avoidance classes.  Since we couldn't see anything over 100% but you had more defensive buffs than other classes.

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aye and its broke that brawlers do 350+ dps.. its broke that they have 700 less mit then my mit tank... its broke that they tank better due to whocares what reasons.. its just broke... so fix it

 

[JNewby]

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Gaige wrote:

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JNewby wrote:

by a dirge?!?! I have a 60 guardian.. hense me always here complaining about how they are no good... dirge is my alt

either way I would still like to know when this iwll be fixed

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Yes, you said "I was with a monk today on my 51 dirge".

You were posting about an experience playing the game while on your dirge character.

It had nothing to do with your monk.

I have an enchanter alt, if I post problems about that character or things I experience while on that character, do they go in the monk forum because I have a 58 monk?

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it was simply something I noticed while playing my dirge... my guard woudlnt be there cause he is 60.. and in my guild I dont get ot have 2 fighters in 1 groiup atm.. people need them for exp so

I had not gotten to group with a monk until then... and taht is what I noticed

 

[Krooner]

Gaige wrote:

 

I never admitted anything even like that to you.  You *were* avoiding better than avoidance classes.  Since we couldn't see anything over 100% but you had more defensive buffs than other classes.

 

 

This was a game mechanics issue and not a class issue.  There were lots of classes whos avoidance was over 100% at times.

The problem is it was addressed as both a class and a game issue.  When they did that they super nerfed us.

Add in the fact that Mit was dropped for everyone as well as having all the secondry effects of our spell line dropped.

If we had those effects back mitigation would have never been an issue.

 

[Airog]

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Gaige wrote:

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Airoguy wrote:

Asked for guardian to be made worse (even though they were overpowered) is asking for a nerf.

Also, would just like to say, we were not avoiding better then avoidance classes, you yourself admitted that to me awhile back. Please refrain from such a blatenly bad statement (and I will try to do the same). =P

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Asking for a broken mechanic to be fixed, is asking for it to be fixed.

I never admitted anything even like that to you.  You *were* avoiding better than avoidance classes.  Since we couldn't see anything over 100% but you had more defensive buffs than other classes.

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When we were talking about Bruisers versus Warriors pre-LU13, you admitted to me that brawlers have in your words "8% more avoidance".

Message Edited by Airoguy on 10-20-2005 10:30 AM

[Gaige]

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Kain Hammersmith wrote:

I think we need increase in DPS, Tower Shield improvement, and higher avoidance (too be fair the MIT difference between avoidance tanks and MIT tanks should not be so close), or higher MIT to make up the difference ( since our avoidance is horiable).

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I think you need increased DPS.  I think you could stand to have a few utilities tweaked and our changed to be a better outright benefit to the group.  I think the protection spells should be rethought out.  I think tower shields should be better than kite (and if they did it right they could up your avoidance a *bit* to alleviate the stuns while not being overpowering or making the gap with brawlers too small).

I think your mitigation is fine though, as I routinely see buffed guardians with 2x my mit.

[Gaige]

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Airoguy wrote:

When we were talking about Bruisers versus Warriors pre-LU13, you admitted to me that brawlers have in your words "8% more avoidance

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Well... I don't remember that.  I also wouldn't have said it as I honestly don't believe it.  Even if I would have, where would "8%" come from?  The truth is simply we didn't avoid better pre LU13.  Guardians were the best avoidance, best mitigation and most HP.  Its not like its a secret.

[Airog]

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Gaige wrote:

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Kain Hammersmith wrote:

I think we need increase in DPS, Tower Shield improvement, and higher avoidance (too be fair the MIT difference between avoidance tanks and MIT tanks should not be so close), or higher MIT to make up the difference ( since our avoidance is horiable).

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I think you need increased DPS.  I think you could stand to have a few utilities tweaked and our changed to be a better outright benefit to the group.  I think the protection spells should be rethought out.  I think tower shields should be better than kite (and if they did it right they could up your avoidance a *bit* to alleviate the stuns while not being overpowering or making the gap with brawlers too small).

I think your mitigation is fine though, as I routinely see buffed guardians with 2x my mit.

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Gaige, unbuffed is what matters, since we can all get the same buffs on us (maybe self buffed matters, but from what I see Bruisers get better self buffs on MIT then Guards). If a buffed Guard has 2x you MIT, and you are both equally buffed, you have really bad gear and he has super good gear.

[JNewby]

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Gaige wrote:

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Kain Hammersmith wrote:

I think we need increase in DPS, Tower Shield improvement, and higher avoidance (too be fair the MIT difference between avoidance tanks and MIT tanks should not be so close), or higher MIT to make up the difference ( since our avoidance is horiable).

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I think you need increased DPS.  I think you could stand to have a few utilities tweaked and our changed to be a better outright benefit to the group.  I think the protection spells should be rethought out.  I think tower shields should be better than kite (and if they did it right they could up your avoidance a *bit* to alleviate the stuns while not being overpowering or making the gap with brawlers too small).

I think your mitigation is fine though, as I routinely see buffed guardians with 2x my mit.

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I agree cept dont want dps... and I see monks with 2300 mit and I have about 3098 mit.. thats kinda close seeing as they wear paper...and DEF shoudl make tower shields better... so far in my guild we had 3 guards including myself snag t6 fabled kite shields... cause they are exactly the same as towers.. seems like SOE hurt crusaders as much as they hurt us

the problem with mit gaige.. is come 60 apt3ed out brawlers will be able to hit 4k easy as so will guards but avoidance will not buff as easy... seems like the same problem as b4 eh?

 

[Neimhidh]

Intercepts could prolly use tweaking.

Prolly take away a taunt line and replace it with a damage line instead.

Tower shields should be different.

No art should permenantly damage equipment

[Kain Hammersmith]

WEll just to let you know, with non-fabled or rare gear in a group of friends I normaly have 2000 or so MIT, the bruiser has 1400 in the same group. The avoidance however, I have around 40% in full defence mode, and the Bruiser has around 75%. I'm not a math wiz, but having 600 more MIT and 35% lower Avoidance does not sound fair. I get hit more and the MIT doesnt mean very much.

I am not trying to argue, I am trying to have a good conversation about what need to happen for this game to survive.

On another note, please remember that not all of us are geared with rare or fabled stuff, so its hard to compare the numbers when we arent equally equiped. If this game is designed for the upper class raider, fine, I will wait for a new game to come out that is more casual friendly.

[Gaige]

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Airoguy wrote:

Gaige, unbuffed is what matters, since we can all get the same buffs on us (maybe self buffed matters, but from what I see Bruisers get better self buffs on MIT then Guards). If a buffed Guard has 2x you MIT, and you are both equally buffed, you have really bad gear and he has super good gear.

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Well I'm not a bruiser, I'm a monk.  Therefore my mit buffs suck.  I was actually referring to groups where I was OT for a guardian who then left and was replaced with DPS and I shifted to the MT role.

/shrug

The *most* buffed mit I've ever had post LU13 was 2500ish.  So I guess my gear sucks.

[Airog]

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Gaige wrote:

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Airoguy wrote:

Gaige, unbuffed is what matters, since we can all get the same buffs on us (maybe self buffed matters, but from what I see Bruisers get better self buffs on MIT then Guards and monks get the same MIT buffs). If a buffed Guard has 2x you MIT, and you are both equally buffed, you have really bad gear and he has super good gear.

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Well I'm not a bruiser, I'm a monk.  Therefore my mit buffs suck.  I was actually referring to groups where I was OT for a guardian who then left and was replaced with DPS and I shifted to the MT role.

/shrug

The *most* buffed mit I've ever had post LU13 was 2500ish.  So I guess my gear sucks.

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Probably should have inserted that little extra part.

[Gungo]

Back to the original post. How much of that monks DPS is directly contributable to your dirge that was groupd w the monk?

[Raahl]

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Gaige wrote:

The truth is simply we didn't avoid better pre LU13.  Guardians were the best avoidance, best mitigation and most HP.  Its not like its a secret.

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Gaige, pre-LU13 any fighter could get 100% avoidance.  It was non-guardian group buffs that did a large chunk of this.  Best mitigation and HP's I will give you.  But Sony nerfed Avoidance, Mitigation and HP's. 

Don't get me wrong, there was some serious issues pre-LU13 and they needed fixed.  But post-LU13, they have seriously damaged the guardian class.  To me 2 things will fix this.  1.  More mitigation  2. More Dps

[Gaige]

I realize any fighter could get 100%.  I've never denied that and said as much in my posts.  Guardians, however, were the only class that could get 100% avoid, 100% mitigation and have the highest HP, at the same time.

I also realize that a lot of the pre LU13 issues weren't with your class specifically but moreso in how buffs and mechanics affected your class.

You know I support the DPS thing, the mitigation thing I do not, but good luck

[Raahl]

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Gaige wrote:

I realize any fighter could get 100%.  I've never denied that and said as much in my posts.  Guardians, however, were the only class that could get 100% avoid, 100% mitigation and have the highest HP, at the same time.

I also realize that a lot of the pre LU13 issues weren't with your class specifically but moreso in how buffs and mechanics affected your class.

You know I support the DPS thing, the mitigation thing I do not, but good luck

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Ok then you can drop any arguements that states we had the best avoidance pre-LU13. 

I pretty much agree that avoidance and mitigation values needed changed.   But IMO they went way to far on the changes to mitigation.

Message Edited by Raahl on 10-20-2005 02:17 PM