Good news

[TanRaistlyn]

Good news the Devs are paying attention, and thats a step in the right direction.

 

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I understand Moorguards post, and I agree with him.  BUT I find most my Monks/Bruisers in my guild have mitigation almost as high as mine.  Less then 300 mitigation different between me(the guild MT) and our best equipped Monk.  He had 22percent more avoidance then me....Thats the problem that I see with these changes.  I also like the fact that Guardians (utility skills) are completely useless while Avoidance tanks get all kinds of kewl stuff, like Safe fall, FD, Self heal, Mez...meanwhile a guardian can double the damage the group tanks using its useless protection skills.  Except Assuage that one is pretty kewl. 

I like the idea that Diff tanks in Diff situations will rule the day, but as it stands now I have been watching the plate classes being outtanked by the avoidance classes more often then not. 

---

I hear you, and I understand your concern. We're watching how this plays out and will make adjustments where necessary. Please understand that we're giving this a little time to breathe as we observe gameplay and watch the data to figure out where perception and fact collide.

 

We don't want to end up in a situation where any subclass of fighter is always clearly the best tank no matter what. That wasn't the intention with guardians, but unfortunately it ended up working out that way. Our goal is not to repeat that mistake, so if we do something that makes it that way, we'll fix it. But again, we aren't going to balance the entire game around those two numbers at the exclusion of every other factor.

===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II

---

I like that I got an answer...YAY

Covenant

[TanRaistlyn]

---

SkySavage wrote:
I know you want it to be dependant on alot of factors but that is not what players do. They don't contemplate which fighter they want for which zone and for which mob. They pick the "overall best" one and then go. If you aren't the "overall best" then you simply don't get picked.

---

I think we can probably agree that before the combat changes, guardians were the most desired tank in every situation, whether for groups or raids. It didn't really matter if the shadowknight or the monk was a better player; the guardian had so many inherent advantages that even a mediocre guardian was the preferred choice. Playing an MMO shouldn't boil down to the same tactics used on the schoolyard to pick teams for dodgeball.

 

One of the goals of the combat changes was to change that, both in perception and in practice. The reaction from the typical player should be that any fighter can tank for their group; you aren't totally dependent upon one certain subclass anymore. The reaction from the detail-oriented player should be that Fighter A is best suited to tank this fight, Fighter B is best suited to tank that fight, and so on. It's a win for both types of playstyles, but it's a shift in perception that isn't going to happen overnight.

 

Even after the combat changes, the guardian is still generally the safest choice to tank because they provide the greatest sense of security. A skillfully played guardian can help their party handle adversity better than any other type of fighter. If things go wrong for the bruiser or monk, they have a good chance to be able to save their own lives, but are far less likely to be able to help their group or raid recover from a bad situation and get things back on track than a guardian.

 

Again, I'm not saying that every subclass is now perfectly balanced and nothing needs to change. There have been some questions lately about guardian utility, and we aren't ignoring those observations. Utility is often situational, and we want to see how all the classes play out for a while before deciding whether something needs to be changed. But I assure you that we're just as prepared to make necessary changes now as we have been since launch.

 

All that said though, you may be right that some players will remain bound and determined to only pay attention to two numbers and make all their decisions based on them alone. The only effective way to counter such behavior is through education and experience, and that takes time.

===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II

---

SOMEONE IS LISTENING!!!!!

Covenant

[Vorlak]

All hes saying is get use to your roll or reroll.

[TanRaistlyn]

I dissagree I think he is saying that they are letting people level up some and raid some and compairing hard facts together.  And what he is or isnt saying isnt my point, its that at least hes listening to our concerns.

 

Covenant

[Nazo]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I dissagree I think he is saying that they are letting people level up some and raid some and compairing hard facts together.  And what he is or isnt saying isnt my point, its that at least hes listening to our concerns.

 

Covenant

---

Read the following line again or let me translate "MY heart is filled with glee over these changes get used to it or muck off" This is a Game Designer who does not balance tanks on 2 numbers but gives some things like FD,Invis,Mend and Cures to certain classes in addition to much better avoidance and mitigation values approaching plate. Claims avoidance is not as good as mitigation where those classes have 360 degree avoidance while the numbers plate tanks see are rubbish in most encounters. Avoidance tanks dont have to do to get their avoidance whereas plates have to raid like hell to max their mitigation. Anyone thought about the difference that will exist between equipped broker plate tanks and brawlers ? One gains Avoidance auto whereas plate tank will be in pathetic indium. This is same guy who took 10 months to correct the imbalances that existed in game before.

But again, we aren't going to balance the entire game around those two numbers at the exclusion of every other factor.

===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II

Message Edited by Nazowa on 09-29-2005 04:30 PM

[Raahl]

I am skeptical.    Actions talk louder than words.

[hyks]

:p

Message Edited by hyksos on 09-29-2005 04:42 PM

[TanRaistlyn]

Ever hear the expression you get more flys with honey then vinegar???

You all and your severe negative attitudes isnt getting us anywhere.  A dev is acknowledging that Guardians LACK utility...its  step in the right direction...try offering intelligent responses instead of SOE sucks, Devs suck, EQ2sucks..blah blah blah  I want to get back to having fun in this game, and my class fixed so that I can do this.  Non stop rants isnt getting us anywhere, so stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

 

Covenant

[MainFra]

Customer paid to buy products, not to offer solutions.

[Moralpanic]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I dissagree I think he is saying that they are letting people level up some and raid some and compairing hard facts together.  And what he is or isnt saying isnt my point, its that at least hes listening to our concerns.

 

Covenant

---

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] was beta or the test server for?  I can tell you it's not a smart move to 'wait it out' and see how things will turn out... you're just losing more and more people everyday.  I bet there are more people leaving this game because of the combat changes than joining this game because of the combat changes.    Overall i liked most of the changes to the combat changes, and hell, i would even accept the current status of guardians relative to the mobs and encounter.  But what i find BS is that bruisers, monks, and even pets are out tanking us in almost every way..

[bonesbro]

---

Nazowa wrote:

 This is a Game Designer who does not balance tanks on 2 numbers but gives some things like FD,Invis,Mend and Cures to certain classes in addition to much better avoidance and mitigation values approaching plate.

Message Edited by Nazowa on 09-29-2005 04:30 PM

---

He does quests, dude.  He's not the dev for nerfing your class.  And up till a couple months ago his job was to sift through tripe like this on the forums looking for something useful.

[Nazo]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

Ever hear the expression you get more flys with honey then vinegar???

You all and your severe negative attitudes isnt getting us anywhere.  A dev is acknowledging that Guardians LACK utility...its  step in the right direction...try offering intelligent responses instead of SOE sucks, Devs suck, EQ2sucks..blah blah blah  I want to get back to having fun in this game, and my class fixed so that I can do this.  Non stop rants isnt getting us anywhere, so stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

 

Covenant

---

True indeed....

Lots of thing were said in DoF Beta boards but still things are the way they are...

Lots are still being said in constructive posts by various people and being ignored or get buried under intentional posts by other classes inciting flame wars thereby turning constructive posts into 10 page flame wars.

I better stop posting and create more negativity because atm I have run out of patience when same Dev said that Guardian group buffs is their utility. You can find the link in a couple of threads down but following is a summary. AS if a Brawler tanking better doesnt do exact same thing easier and more elegantly...

 

In the level 50 abilities, guardians again get something that protects their group. All other classes get some kind of attack.

 

If you want to look for a theme or flavor for the class, you could say the guardian excels at protecting their group. The benefits of this are seen not when looking at the guardian in isolation, but rather when examining the effect they have on their entire party.

===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II

 

 

---

bonesbro wrote:

He does quests, dude.  He's not the dev for nerfing your class.  And up till a couple months ago his job was to sift through tripe like this on the forums looking for something useful.

---

Yes Bones you are right too. I keep forgetting the part I underlined...

Message Edited by Nazowa on 09-30-2005 01:19 AM

[RafaelSmith]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

  A dev is acknowledging that Guardians LACK utility...

Covenant

---

Please show me where he acknowledges such a thing? All I recal is in a recent thread he posted that our protection buffs were our "utility" and he had some long list showing how those supposidly correspond to the "flashy" utilities the other fighters get.

[TanRaistlyn]

Again, I'm not saying that every subclass is now perfectly balanced and nothing needs to change. There have been some questions lately about guardian utility, and we aren't ignoring those observations. Utility is often situational, and we want to see how all the classes play out for a while before deciding whether something needs to be changed. But I assure you that we're just as prepared to make necessary changes now as we have been since launch

 

 

Is his exact quote'

 

Covenant

[Tomanak]

Even after the combat changes, the guardian is still generally the safest choice to tank because they provide the greatest sense of security. A skillfully played guardian can help their party handle adversity better than any other type of fighter. If things go wrong for the bruiser or monk, they have a good chance to be able to save their own lives, but are far less likely to be able to help their group or raid recover from a bad situation and get things back on track than a guardian.

 

Im not sure I entirely buy this line of reasoning. How am I better able to protect my group? I cant hold aggro better than any other tank class, I dont survive longer than any tank class and any buffs I may add are provided to the group as a whole regardless of who is tanking.

 

The intervene line, also know as our utility line, is a waste of hotkey space. I know of very few Guardians who even bother using them. They were broke and practically useless pre LU 13 and nothing has changed.

 

Heres an idea. Improve my ability to hold aggro, dont root me in order to do so and make me better able to take a hit than someone wearing leather armor. We accepted crap DPS for better tanking ability. Now we still have crappy DPS and questionable tanking ability. You gave to every other fighter class and took away from the Guardians. What did we get in return for our massive reductions in HP and Defense?

 

When asking if this is perception or reality, just ask why are Bruisers able to solo blue ^^^s when Guardians who are supposed to be 'equals' get beat down fighting groups of solo greens....doesnt seem too balanced to me.

 

All I ask SOE is this. Is it your intention to turn the Guardian into a group buffbot? If this is the case please tell us now and save me a lot of time and money. I didnt roll a Guard to be a buffbot for the group, I rolled one to Tank.

Message Edited by Tomanak on 09-30-2005 09:42 AM

[TanRaistlyn]

I dissagree Guards have the best ability to hold agro bar none.  For raiding Hold the Line group of tuants is invaluable, and is also incredibley usefull during small group situations.  I very RARELY if ever lose agro, unlike my crusader counterparts.  Also we get the most powerful tuants, and unlike any other class during raids, we dont have to hit the mob to gain hate(which results in lots of ripostes, which equals lots of wipes).  The biggest problems with Guards is the lack of utility that is usefull(I agree the protection line of spells is just stupid) and the fact that our DPS is signifigantly lower then other tank classes, AND that the current mitigation formula is a bit screwey.

 

There are lots of apparent ways to fix these problems: Fix tower sheild mitigation, raise total mitigation, etc. etc..

 

My point here is at least they NOTICE the problem which is a step in the right direction.

 

Covenant

[RafaelSmith]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I dissagree Guards have the best ability to hold agro bar none.  For raiding Hold the Line group of tuants is invaluable, and is also incredibley usefull during small group situations.  I very RARELY if ever lose agro, unlike my crusader counterparts.  Also we get the most powerful tuants, and unlike any other class during raids, we dont have to hit the mob to gain hate(which results in lots of ripostes, which equals lots of wipes).  The biggest problems with Guards is the lack of utility that is usefull(I agree the protection line of spells is just stupid) and the fact that our DPS is signifigantly lower then other tank classes, AND that the current mitigation formula is a bit screwey.

There are lots of apparent ways to fix these problems: Fix tower sheild mitigation, raise total mitigation, etc. etc..

My point here is at least they NOTICE the problem which is a step in the right direction.

Covenant

---

Hmm I guess im just less optimistic.  I dont think they believe there is an actual problem..They only acknowledge that alot of us are complaining...i still havent seen any evidence that they "NOTICE the problem".

[TanRaistlyn]

Probably because too many people are out there ranting and making absurd claims.  Like the above poster said that Guards get beat down by single arrow green mobs and bruisers kick the crap out of blue heroics...Which is just stupid.

I am currently a level 52 Guard and I can solo, thats right SOLO level 46^^^ OLD WORLD MOBS!!!! Those old world mobs are signifigantly tuffer then DoF mobs of the same level, and I can still solo them...takes me a long time, and im almost OOP and Health by the time Im done but I CAN do it.  I can also SOLO level 53-54 ^ heroics with my level 52 Guardian in DoF fairly efficiently being at about 50percent health and power when the mob dies.  Because people keep responding with rediculous information like the above poster, its hard for any Dev to take us seriously.

I agree I think the guards are seriously broken atm and I cant wait for a Utility upgrade and or fixing Mitigation values AND tower vs. kite sheild argument.

 

At least they are listening.

Covenant

[Raahl]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I dissagree Guards have the best ability to hold agro bar none.  For raiding Hold the Line group of tuants is invaluable, and is also incredibley usefull during small group situations.  I very RARELY if ever lose agro, unlike my crusader counterparts.  Also we get the most powerful tuants, and unlike any other class during raids, we dont have to hit the mob to gain hate(which results in lots of ripostes, which equals lots of wipes).  The biggest problems with Guards is the lack of utility that is usefull(I agree the protection line of spells is just stupid) and the fact that our DPS is signifigantly lower then other tank classes, AND that the current mitigation formula is a bit screwey.

 

There are lots of apparent ways to fix these problems: Fix tower sheild mitigation, raise total mitigation, etc. etc..

 

My point here is at least they NOTICE the problem which is a step in the right direction.

 

Covenant

---

After level 44, we have an advantage in taunting, so we are better at holding aggro.  Not sure how much better.

Prior to 44 I'd say we were the same as every other fighter.

 

[Sunrayn]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I dissagree Guards have the best ability to hold agro bar none.  For raiding Hold the Line group of tuants is invaluable,

Ya, it is real handy to be *rooted* when an add shows up or a mob peels away to slap the conjuror around and I cant get it back without *dropping* the HTL, chance losing aggro on all the mobs, move closer to the conjuror to get aggro back.

Also we get the most powerful tuants, 

Powerful taunts do absolutely nothing when they are resisted.

---

[Tro]

First of all those comments by MG do not tell me we will get anything in the way of Utility.. That response is a "Say something to shut up the whiners". I have seen crap responses like that before.. Please spare me. That means nothing to me.

He mentioned nothing about the aggro problem many many Guards are posting about.. Screw the Utility.. I want to be able to hold aggro or get it back fast like I was able to pre LU13. That NEEDS to be fixed ASAP.

MG also mentions they made a mistake with the fighters (Guards being the #1 choice for tanks). I definately agree. They screwed up.. The game should have been released much later. All this crap (Server stability also) should have been inplace PRIOR to release. But scooping up potential WoW customers was WAY more important than releasing the game the way they originally intended. This most recent LU was a direct result of that wonderful [Removed for Content] decision by the SoE management made back prior to EQ2 initial release. "Get teh game out now and get as many potential WoW customers as we can.. THEN make the game as we intended..

Well they did it.. Sept 13th.. yea nice [Removed for Content] move... and to throw those 9/7 changes on test a week before going live.. OMG.. yea that was classic.  

This LU was a Major change to game mechanics and should NOT have been implemented as it was.. When we are told we have to "Relearn" the characters we rolled months ago, when the Mobs are now 10 lvl aggro vice 5 and most replaced with ^ ^ ^,  When I lose 1K HP, 50% AV and 400 Mit, when I lose my buffstacking, when I  lose 50% of my taunts, When I can no longer Duo/finish quests that me and my wife use to be able to do, When the mobs hit harder and faster, that is a MAJOR change.. not something from your typical LU.. That is essentially a new game.

No where did I read in the Soe documentation (when I was researching for the best raid/mitigation/defensive tank to roll) did I see any mention that I would have to "relearn" the character (that was perfectly happy playing) months down the road. No Where!!!

SoE should have chosen a better course to implement EQ3. They had no problem standing up Station Exchange Servers.. They obviously beefed up their support staff to support that effort.

They should have used that same concept and stood up "Classic Servers" that retain the pre LU 13 EQ2 and kept the LU13 on the other servers.. That way we have a choice.. And dont give me that crap about how hard it is to support "2" games.. How long have they been working on this revamp? They could not have planned early on to hire folks to support this.. Of course they could have.. This route was easier though. Now we are forced to "relearn" our "New" characters. Again this is EQ3. Call it what you want but the reality is, it is a NEW game.. Same concept, Same look but yea mechanics wise, it's a new game.

SoE please fix the EXISTING aggro problems with the Guards BEFORE you "give" us something new.

And please DO NOT pull this revamp crap again.. get it right the first time. No more mistakes at the paying customers expense.

[Danter]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I can also SOLO level 53-54 ^ heroics with my level 52 Guardian in DoF fairly efficiently being at about 50percent health and power when the mob dies. 

---

^ mobs are solo, not heroic, unless there's 3 of them linked.

[RafaelSmith]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

Probably because too many people are out there ranting and making absurd claims.  Like the above poster said that Guards get beat down by single arrow green mobs and bruisers kick the crap out of blue heroics...Which is just stupid.

I am currently a level 52 Guard and I can solo, thats right SOLO level 46^^^ OLD WORLD MOBS!!!! Those old world mobs are signifigantly tuffer then DoF mobs of the same level, and I can still solo them...takes me a long time, and im almost OOP and Health by the time Im done but I CAN do it.  I can also SOLO level 53-54 ^ heroics with my level 52 Guardian in DoF fairly efficiently being at about 50percent health and power when the mob dies.  Because people keep responding with rediculous information like the above poster, its hard for any Dev to take us seriously.

I agree I think the guards are seriously broken atm and I cant wait for a Utility upgrade and or fixing Mitigation values AND tower vs. kite sheild argument.

At least they are listening.

Covenant

---

Actually im pretty sure that the real problem is that the Mitigation isnt working like it should be which is just snowballing into all this "Plate tanks are broken". I havent really parsed much but I dont think im mitigating anywhere near what my numbers show me I should be againt even con no arrow mob.  And the scaling is messed up as well leading to even more problems as you move up in con or move down in con. Actually it feels like im mitigating the % my persona windows against low blues instead of whites. Only real way to test this is to fight an even con no arrow mob naked/buffless then fight that same mob buffed and parse its avg melee hit. If this is in fact what is borked then us Guards would be most effected by it since we dont have any nifty tricks like Crusadors that "hide" what might be going on.

[TanRaistlyn]

That I completely agree with!!!

 

Covenant

[Raahl]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I am currently a level 52 Guard and I can solo, thats right SOLO level 46^^^ OLD WORLD MOBS!!!! Those old world mobs are signifigantly tuffer then DoF mobs of the same level, and I can still solo them...takes me a long time, and im almost OOP and Health by the time Im done but I CAN do it.  I can also SOLO level 53-54 ^ heroics with my level 52 Guardian in DoF fairly efficiently being at about 50percent health and power when the mob dies.  Because people keep responding with rediculous information like the above poster, its hard for any Dev to take us seriously.

---

So we are now relegated to fighting solo mobs that are 6 levels below us?  Are those mobs heroic, if so see next comment.

I'd like to know how the heck you are soloing heroic mobs, cause it just is not happening for me.  I'm lucky to survive blue ^ solo mobs.

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I agree I think the guards are seriously broken atm and I cant wait for a Utility upgrade and or fixing Mitigation values AND tower vs. kite sheild argument.

---

We agree that we are broken.    Tanking ablility must be fixed ASAP.  Most of us won't wait long.  

[TanRaistlyn]

Raahl Wrote:

 

 So we are now relegated to fighting solo mobs that are 6 levels below us?  Are those mobs heroic, if so see next comment.

 I'd like to know how the heck you are soloing heroic mobs, cause it just is not happening for me.  I'm lucky to survive blue^ Heroic solo mobs.

---

I say,

I can solo level 46 ^^^ heroics (old world mobs which are harder then DOF mobs) at level 52.  It takes most my power and most my health but I CAN do it.

 

 

---

Danterus Wrote

^ mobs are solo, not heroic, unless there's 3 of them linked.

---

 

I say,

Well they have the little Heroic design next to their name, even if they are solo, so Id like to know how you decided they werent.

 

 

 

 

---

Raahl Wrote:

After level 44, we have an advantage in taunting, so we are better at holding aggro.  Not sure how much better.

Prior to 44 I'd say we were the same as every other fighter.

 

Corwin Denhurst, Kilped Denhurst, Raahl Denhurst
Xule, Unimock, Iami

---

I say,

We have a "Hold the Line" type spell from what?? Level 12 I think, and then upgrades from then on out.  So we get that advantage our entire tanking career.

 

Covenant

[Ironmeow]

something as simple as fixing plate armor to have more mitigation might solve everything. Though i think tuants should also be more potent. So more potent taunts and improved armor mitigation on plate armor. Thats pretty much all it should take

[Raahl]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

I say,

We have a "Hold the Line" type spell from what?? Level 12 I think, and then upgrades from then on out.  So we get that advantage our entire tanking career.

---

Doesn't every fighter class get some special taunting ablility.  Like the monks (probably bruisers) ability to proc a taunt when they hit?  Not sure on the Crusader class.  Not to mention that DPS still generates a lot of hate, so brawlers have a definite edge there.

HTL does not make us better than the other classes, it makes us equal.  Once we hit 44 we get an AE attack that throws an AE taunt, plus we are given the option to get our Maddening Defense (HTL) at Master II.  At this point we are better at holding aggro.  Prior to that we are pretty much the same as all other fighters.

[Tro]

If we are better at holding aggro now then why ar so many Guards complaining about losing aggro in th same situations prior to LU 13? and to make it worse.. getting it back is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near impossible now.

[TanRaistlyn]

Prob so many complaining about it, cuz its harder all around.  You need intelligent healers/dps classes now to help agro control, and you need a GOOD tank to do it.  Lotta people just arent good at what they do.  And as far as monks/bruisers getting the same kind of tuant? It will be useless in raid situations as you CANNOT keep auto attack on a raid mob or RIPOSTES WILL OWN YOU.  So Guardians will still rule the day in raid situations for that simple fact alone.

Stop crying about your agro management, no one else has it better off, if you are losing agro its because YOU dont know how to play your class.

Covenant