Advice on the art of holding aggro

[Oneira]

I'm about to ding Guardian and I thought I knew the tanking art pretty well, but now I've seen myself lose aggro a few more times than I liked.  So for the sake of my future groups, I was wondering about a few things. First let me say how I draw and hold aggro, then please tell me what I'm doing wrong or could do better. 1.  Tell the nukers to hold off their big attacks until I have a chance to do the following. 2.  Draw mob with a bow or Anger. 3.  Hit mob with taunting blow. 4.  Use Shout to get group aggro 5. Repeat 3 and 4. I'm unsure about using Hold the Line because it immobilizes, and casting it takes a while.   If a mob peels off and goes after another group member it can be a problem. Also someone mentioned that buffing while in combat helps increase hate against you and this is a good way to hold aggro. Anyway I can make this better?

Message Edited by Oneira on 06-08-2005 07:16 AM

[Rorrak]

If you're losing aggro you need to a) be using Hold the Line every fight, and cancelling it when down to the next mob to get around the 30 second recast time being a pain.  b) use your buffs, especially the short term ones (I think toughness is the only one you'll have at 20) to generate aggro in multi-encounter situations.  Hold the Line + Assault can be used to generate aggro over multiple encounters, that comes in handy.  Get all your Taunts Adept I if you haven't already - armor, weapons, etc do not matter if you can't hold aggro, and you can't hold aggro without good taunts.  You probably want to Adept III Hold the Line, you'll still use it at 50, Taunting Blow is also still used at 50 since it has its own timer so that's another good candidate for Adept III.  Use Anger, Taunting Blow and Shout mid fight with Hold the Line on, and use your buffs, and that's about all you can do.  After that it's in the hands of your groupmates and their self-aggro management.

 

If groups are still pulling aggro from you and you notice they're burning power fast then tell them to pace their power usage with the health of the mob.  ie if the mob has 60% health left they shouldn't have less than 60% power.  It'll slow fights down a little and give you a firmer hold on aggro.  Slowing down is inefficient yeah, but group wipes are more inefficient, which is what will happen if you lose aggro enough. 

 

Best of luck.

 

- Rorrak

[Oakwood]

Biggest problem with agro in a xp group is when I go to pull, the scouts (always seems to be scouts) want to run way out ahead of the group and start hitting the mob before I get it back.  I will pull it off them once or twice, and remind them to wait for the mob to get to the group.  After that, I stop taunting and let the group know that the scout is now tanking.  Every time, the group goes off on the idiot scout at that point. About half the time the scout will shape up, the othe half the scout will keep doing it till he gets kicked or leaves in a huff cause everyone is telling him just how bad he is doing.

As long as the group lets me pull, I usually dont have much agro problems.  I try to pull with ranged taunt, then hit group taunt on the way back, then turn and hit the attack taunts as soon as I get to the group.  This usually gives me a nice aggro lock so I can hold aggro only using the attack taunts and contribute some DPS if my power is falling slower than my groupmates.

[Rorrak]

Well yeah, people attacking during your pull is completely unacceptable.  I'd recommend finding a good guild with people who are willing to learn how to group effectively (or already know). 

- Rorrak

[Oneira]

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Rorrak wrote:

If you're losing aggro you need to a) be using Hold the Line every fight, and cancelling it when down to the next mob to get around the 30 second recast time being a pain.  b) use your buffs, especially the short term ones (I think toughness is the only one you'll have at 20) to generate aggro in multi-encounter situations.  Hold the Line + Assault can be used to generate aggro over multiple encounters, that comes in handy.  Get all your Taunts Adept I if you haven't already - armor, weapons, etc do not matter if you can't hold aggro, and you can't hold aggro without good taunts.  You probably want to Adept III Hold the Line, you'll still use it at 50, Taunting Blow is also still used at 50 since it has its own timer so that's another good candidate for Adept III.  Use Anger, Taunting Blow and Shout mid fight with Hold the Line on, and use your buffs, and that's about all you can do.  After that it's in the hands of your groupmates and their self-aggro management.

 

If groups are still pulling aggro from you and you notice they're burning power fast then tell them to pace their power usage with the health of the mob.  ie if the mob has 60% health left they shouldn't have less than 60% power.  It'll slow fights down a little and give you a firmer hold on aggro.  Slowing down is inefficient yeah, but group wipes are more inefficient, which is what will happen if you lose aggro enough. 

 

Best of luck.

 

- Rorrak

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Thanks Rorrak sounds like some very good advice.  Didn't realize that Hold the Line and Taunting Blow were useful all the way.  It's adept III for sure on them!  If buffing during combat helps than should I wait to cast Rallying Cry during combat rather than before to generate more hate?

[RafaelSmith]

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Oneira wrote:

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Rorrak wrote:

If you're losing aggro you need to a) be using Hold the Line every fight, and cancelling it when down to the next mob to get around the 30 second recast time being a pain.  b) use your buffs, especially the short term ones (I think toughness is the only one you'll have at 20) to generate aggro in multi-encounter situations.  Hold the Line + Assault can be used to generate aggro over multiple encounters, that comes in handy.  Get all your Taunts Adept I if you haven't already - armor, weapons, etc do not matter if you can't hold aggro, and you can't hold aggro without good taunts.  You probably want to Adept III Hold the Line, you'll still use it at 50, Taunting Blow is also still used at 50 since it has its own timer so that's another good candidate for Adept III.  Use Anger, Taunting Blow and Shout mid fight with Hold the Line on, and use your buffs, and that's about all you can do.  After that it's in the hands of your groupmates and their self-aggro management.

 

If groups are still pulling aggro from you and you notice they're burning power fast then tell them to pace their power usage with the health of the mob.  ie if the mob has 60% health left they shouldn't have less than 60% power.  It'll slow fights down a little and give you a firmer hold on aggro.  Slowing down is inefficient yeah, but group wipes are more inefficient, which is what will happen if you lose aggro enough. 

 

Best of luck.

 

- Rorrak

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Thanks Rorrak sounds like some very good advice.  Didn't realize that Hold the Line and Taunting Blow were useful all the way.  It's adept III for sure on them!  If buffing during combat helps than should I wait to cast Rallying Cry during combat rather than before to generate more hate?

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Yes...buffs generate aggro...In fact the more different things the buff gives regardless of what the amounts are the more aggro it generates.  So a single buff that just gives 1000HP is going to be less aggro than a single buff that give +1 parry, +1 defense, +1 blah blah, etc. At 48 I use Commanding Presence (short term buff) after i first engage the mobs which seems to generate quite abit of aggro.

[SmakenDah]

If scouts are a problem, stop pulling with the bow, if applicable to the situation but I suspect that's the case if the scouts are running in so there isn't likely mobs around that will agro. Note arrows are pretty low agro generation (for guardians and especially so if you're not using decent arrows/bow) and leaves all that room between you and the mob for the overly enthusiastic to charge in. It also only hits one mob in the encounter which leaves the rest of the encounter low on the hate - that means they'll likely eat your enchanter if he's got breeze type buffs going (they seem to generate agro per tick - use proximity agro and don't taunt - you'll see the mobs go right for the chanter if brain buffs are up). Instead of using the bow, advance and pull with your single target taunt then your ae taunt as you're running back to the group if it's a single target otherwise open with the ae taunt on multiples. Note that you can cast the ae on the nearest mob to you and it seems to also affect mobs in the encounter that are out of range (someone correct me if this is wrong, but I see the mobs light up and they come to me instead of others in the group). You can also fire buffs (as was suggested - yes you likely want to keep some available to fire while pulling instead of pre-buffing; in fact most healers will want to pre-buff) while the mobs are incoming or while running back to the group since that increases your hate with all mobs in the encounter. If you're going to pull with a bow you can also trigger HTL before firing the bow - again, agro is generated only on one mob. Again, firing buffs will help generate agro while mob is incoming. Stuns are especially good to taking back agro (a good reason for having a shield equiped) - not only does it interrupt the mob, generate hate, but it also temporarily stops the mob from clobbering what ever it is clobbering instead of you. Follow up with taunts and other threat increasing attacks. Hope that helps.

[Oneira]

Yes indeed it does.  The stun idea on stealing back aggro is one I didn't think of...good reason not to use that one while tanking and keep it in reserve. I think using the bow is part of the prob, but the range on it is so good, maybe using bow and following it up immediately with ranged taunt as they come in might be a good idea.

[Oakwood]

 

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SmakenDahed wrote:
If scouts are a problem, stop pulling with the bow, if applicable to the situation but I suspect that's the case if the scouts are running in so there isn't likely mobs around that will agro. Note arrows are pretty low agro generation (for guardians and especially so if you're not using decent arrows/bow) and leaves all that room between you and the mob for the overly enthusiastic to charge in. It also only hits one mob in the encounter which leaves the rest of the encounter low on the hate - that means they'll likely eat your enchanter if he's got breeze type buffs going (they seem to generate agro per tick - use proximity agro and don't taunt - you'll see the mobs go right for the chanter if brain buffs are up).

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I usually do pull with taunt, or entrench then taunt if long distance, and use the bow to speed up pulls only once the group and only if people are controling their initial agro.  The problem is that even leading with taunt isnt enough when the scouts run up and hit a few high damage DD skills away from the group.  They get proximity agro on top of the damage agro, since they are standing on top of it while I am still moving away.  Add to that the problem of roamers adding because the mob and scout are now standing on the path instead of back in the safe area the group just cleared, and these guys can cause a TPW very quickly. 

Maybe I should leave entrence on, so the scout isn't doing much damage till after I taunt a bit?  hehe, I can see their faces, wondering why their arts arn't doing much :smileyvery-happy:

[SmakenDah]

Wow... sounds like you've had some really bad scout members. :smileysad: You can fight to hold agro from most classes, it isn't easy and you really have to make use of everything available. DW with HTL up will likely get what you want (while buffing/taunting of course). You can always weapon switch while dual wielding to pop a shield in to stun if you need to. Also drop your defensive stance if you use it, a lot of the time it really isn't needed for regular groups. And avoid grouping with those particular scouts hehe.

Message Edited by SmakenDahed on 06-08-2005 12:45 PM

[Ashtu]

I pretty much always start with bow/entrench, a hotkeyed solo HO that includes smothering cry, two single target taunts, HTL, and commanding presence.  I usually don't have aggro issues after all that. :smileyvery-happy:  HTL is very good and efficient at maintaining aggro in multi-mob encounters (only spell I have at adept III) but I still click group taunt when its up.

However, I always instruct people not to go apesh*t on the mob until at least my starting HO goes through if aggro is an issue.

[Zholain]

Hi there.  I'm new to the guardian boards, but have a bit of experience playing a ranger.  I would agree that it sounds as if your scouts need to adjust the way that they are engaging the mobs(that's the nicest way I knew how to say it).  They should not be running anywhere.  A better tactic would be to stealth for the pull, and you should insist that they wait until you get to your 'root' spot before they engage.  And it is a bad idea to start off with the high damage attacks, whether ranged or melee.  For the first few seconds, I like to use my non-positional attacks.  These are not high damage, but still get me going on the dps.  After the tank has done at least 2 taunts, I can then begin to use the really good stuff(including ranged attacks).  What helps with this is the fact that many of the stealth abilities reduce hate...not just while the CA is active, but sustained, and our really high damage skills require stealth.  This somewhat counters the hate generated by such damaging attacks.  Usually, by this point, the tank has completed enough taunts that the scout can just about unleash everything s/he has, and you can really see the health bar on the mob drop quickly.(Keep in mind that there are as many different ways to play a scout well as there are scouts..this is simply a method that has worked well for me) Sorry...didn't mean to carry on for so long...if you want to go to the effort of trying to explain this to the scouts you're grouping with, it would probably benefit the group.  But it might just be easier to find scouts who are more in tune to their role.  A scout's job is to make the tanks job easier...if they aren't doing that...well...

[bar]

The way I get around this is by being the first to engage the mob. Rather than pulling the mob back to the group, let the group come to the spot where you have already engaged the target. This doesn't work so well if the group is the kind of group that needs to be stationary to be effective.

 

UPon engaging a mob/group of mobs I will wait until the last mob is almost dead and then let the scouts/nukers finish it off. By this time I have run to the next mob and engaged it on the spot so I get first agro and a few taunts in. If the previous mob runs after you it will die soon enough. The group then moves up to me and any rangers/nukers really have no chance to outaggro me at this point.

 

If you have a group that needs to be more stationary, another method of combating overactive rangers with itchy fingers (myself also being one) is to simply give in and let them pull. They can line mobs up for you and let you focus on aggro management. Have the ranger pull with a bow and bring mobs back to you as you are finishing the last of the previous pull. Switch off to the new pulls and throw an aoe taunt. Now you have a couple of secs while the rest of your crew finishes off the last mob from the previous fight--all the while you are developing decent agro on the newest group. Ranger then goes back to ranged attack, throws down some dps, and goes off again to pull the next group. Effectively this keeps him occupied and contributing to the group in a more productive fashion.

 

These methods work for me and my close friends with the ad hoc stranger from time to time. May or may not help you, but it keeps the group from becoming stagnant. Everyone contributes and feel as though they have a purpose.

[Iari111]

hi   Just dinged 20 on my guardian last night.  Here's what I do/have been doing:

 

I tend to group with the same people every night, so there is no real need to expalin my tactics, nor theirs to me.  If I were tanking in pick up groups or random guild groups however, I would ask that healers hold off on heals as long as posible and casters hold off on nuking anything until I can get off a taunt HO.  I view it as my duty to get this done quickly.  I need aggro, but I can't expect everyone to stand around watching me get a beating, whilst twiddling their thumbs :p  So speed here is key.

 

I pull with an arrow, or two.  Always pull healers/casters first.  (Although sometimes I will pull a melee so I can get my HO off quickly, as the caster mobs tend to hang back a bit at first, and then I switch to the caster mobwhen it's in range).  If I have time, and frankly sometimes I don't bother, I'll do a buff while pulling.  As soon as the mobs get just outside of my melee range, I strigger the HO, and advance it.  Quickly.  I tend to do this as fast as posible so the healer can heal if needed.  I then use shout to complete the HO.

 

If there is a mob healer and or caster in the group, I kill them first, and fast.  I then target the next mob, strafe around , positioning the mobs' backs to our healer, caster and scout.  This (hopefully) gets all mobs directly in front of me, where I can avoid more damage (something I have to do with my monk, or the healer gets heal aggro).  If there are  mob casters, I don't worry so much about positioning the mobs until those are killed.  Otherwise, if all mobs are melee, I do the strafing and positioning at the beginning, after the first HO.

 

Keep in mind this whole process does not take long.  At this point, I fire off another HO, advance it myself quickly, and instead of shout, I use Hold the Line.  I LOVE Hold the Line lol.  Now, if casters have not overnuked, there is little danger, most times, in rooting myself with HTL.  From that point, I use shout whenever it refreshes, dish out a little dps, and the others are free to dps their hearts out

 

I also ask that my healer not run away when he gets aggro, unless he truly intends to "run" lol... can't stand chasing down a mob.  I also ask that, if I do lose aggro on a mob or two, usually to healer aggro, that everyone stick to my previous target and kill it, while I regain aggro on the other mob(s).

 

I cast the short duration buffs during the fight whenever they refresh.

 

One thing I was running into last night... I was losing aggro on all the mobs.. several times.  Was literally scratching my head over this one.  I realized, I was using a piercing weapon I had just bought, but my peircing skills were in the red.  So, in attempting to advance my first HO, I was not hitting the mob.  Went and beat up on a few (hundred lol) grey mobs today, and got all my skills up. 

 

Hope this helps, good luck