Upcoming Shield Changes

Wasuna · 05-03-2005, 01:49 AM

Can somebody explain to me why a Kite Shield should be as good as a Tower Shield? I just can't see this. Are they going to go back and make all the Tower shields have better stats or something? There has to be some kind of reason for us to have Tower shields as a restricted class ability.

Oakwood · 05-03-2005, 10:44 PM

Well, first we need to address your assumptions, that the kite/tower shield change will be going live as is. We have been repetedly told that the current combat testing will not be going live. Everyone keeps wanting to freak out as if they are despite this, and despite other portions of the combat testing have been changed then reset on Test already (parry buffing, for example). This change may or may not go live.

There may very well have never been any intention of brining any of this live, since the behavior of the devs regarding the combat testing is in line with data gathering rather than actual changes to the final product (abrupt, gross changes to the system in seperate and independant stages). Again, parry buffing is a good example. They disabled all parry buffs, eliminating 100% of that system, let the testers play in this environment for a while to gather data, then reinstated parry buffing as it was prior to the test with no changes.

But, assuming that some form of shield change is intended to go live, you then assume that the change is to the relationship between kite shields and tower shields. And you further assume that the final change will be a complete elimination of the difference in blocking between kite and tower shields. IF every one of these assumtions proves true, we may then question what purpose tower shields have, and what if any significance the tower shield skill has to Warriors. Even as the system stands now, many Warriors prefer certain kite shields to the availible tower shields in the same tier due to superior stats and effects.

Of course, this is all based on quite a string of marginally supported assumptions, that support only being the Developers past tendancy to drop stuff on test and then publish it live with little to no thought. And we all know what happens when you assume...

Message Edited by Oakwood on 05-03-2005 12:47 PM

Wasuna · 05-04-2005, 01:28 AM

I would have thought others would have been keeping track of the combat patches on test but I guess not. Also, my understanding of how things work is that you test what you want to try and see if it has the desired effect. Since the shield change was in two different tests I would think it has at least a fair chance of getting added in some form to the end pacth that does go live.

Now for the education of some:

Posted by Moorguard:

4-14-05: Shields now have the following base chance to block: Tower (20%, Kite (19%)... etc.

4-22-05: Kite shields now block with the same effectiveness as Tower shields.

Oakwood · 05-04-2005, 02:15 AM

From the same post:

Moorgard wrote:

Note: The changes below represent a revision to the combat changes currently on Test server. These will *not* be moving to the live servers with the next update. Please continue to see these as part of a work in progress.

I will stand by my assesment of freaking out based on assumptions despite the evidence being to the contrary. IF these go live, we need to worry about it then. Until it does go live, if it ever does, we can do nothing about it. You may continue to ASSume anything you like, but untill we have hard data from live servers, try to avoid leading other people into your baseless frenzy.

Sir_Halbarad · 05-04-2005, 07:41 PM

If shields have an inherent block rate (Let's say 20%), what does the shield factor display then? A modification of the block rate maybe? If so, then Tower Shields should remain slightly better than Kite Shields (of the same quality/tier at least) because their shield factor is higher.

Wasuna · 05-04-2005, 11:57 PM

Oakwood wrote:

I will stand by my assesment of freaking out based on assumptions despite the evidence being to the contrary. IF these go live, we need to worry about it then. Until it does go live, if it ever does, we can do nothing about it. You may continue to ASSume anything you like, but untill we have hard data from live servers, try to avoid leading other people into your baseless frenzy.

First of all my post wasn't freaking out. It was an attempt to start a discussion about an item that will effect Guardians in some form. If you think you can sit back and say nothing and then after weeks of testing step up the day before a patch goes live with something you don't like and get it changed at that point then go for it. I, on the other hand, want to discuss the potentional impact of the post changes to the class that I play. I want to hopefully help direct the developers to a direction that would be benefical for what I feel my class should be. Basically I want to discuss the topic and hopefully lobby for what Guardians want.

Xlap · 05-06-2005, 06:29 PM

ok, hear's my reasoning.

You're holding a barn door, so yes, you'd block more hits coming from directly in front of you. you can't move it fast enough to block stuff coming from the front.

you're holding kite shield. yyou are much more mobile aqand anle to move the shield to block

MastikFantastik · 05-06-2005, 07:13 PM

That's a good point.

But rememebring that you are supposed to be a mass of muscle, that tower sheild would seem a lot lighter to you. I know for example (part of the reason my play time has been getting less and less) I have been going to the gym for about 3month solid (daily) and at first I would curl 45lbs and "feel the burn" after 3 sets of 15. But now I can do 70lbs 3 sets of 15lbs and barely "feel the burn". (Now I am not trying to get big looking muscles just strengthen and tone now). So it makes sense that if you are used to carrying around a barn door after time it would feel nice and light (well not light persay) but lighter. And then you could manuver it as easily as someone else that isn't as storng (str attribute is actually irrelevnant in point I am trying to convey) weilding that lighter kite Sheild. Not to say that a tower sheild would be as manuverable asa kite sheild but in essence it should provide more protection.

Xlap · 05-09-2005, 06:01 PM

woh! glad you could understand my point. lol i just re-read it and figured out that i should NOT post when im sleepy or in a hurry. and i know it would get lighter, but think about it, if you were fighting 3 enemies, 2 would come to the sides...you would NOT be able to move that barn door fast enough to block all 3 sides. not saying you'd be able to do it with a kite shield, but you'd block more from the sides. you'd block less from the front than a tower shield but more from the sides. i see this as getting the same blocking potential in different ways

Benaire · 05-10-2005, 06:24 AM

MastikFantastik wrote:
That's a good point.

But rememebring that you are supposed to be a mass of muscle, that tower sheild would seem a lot lighter to you. I know for example (part of the reason my play time has been getting less and less) I have been going to the gym for about 3month solid (daily) and at first I would curl 45lbs and "feel the burn" after 3 sets of 15. But now I can do 70lbs 3 sets of 15lbs and barely "feel the burn". (Now I am not trying to get big looking muscles just strengthen and tone now). So it makes sense that if you are used to carrying around a barn door after time it would feel nice and light (well not light persay) but lighter. And then you could manuver it as easily as someone else that isn't as storng (str attribute is actually irrelevnant in point I am trying to convey) weilding that lighter kite Sheild. Not to say that a tower sheild would be as manuverable asa kite sheild but in essence it should provide more protection.

But the flaw in this thinking is that while you can move that barn door with ease cuse of your STR. It makes your kite shield that much easier too. If you can swing a barn door fast then you should be able to swing that kite at blinding speeds.(Edit) I think that Tower shields should have a very slight advantage over kite shields, but i think they should provide Knights with something to compensate for this. ATM pallies have heals, but i never played one so i cant comment. I do know that SKs havent got anything to make up the difference.

Message Edited by Benaire on 05-09-2005 07:27 PM

blueduckie · 05-10-2005, 12:05 PM

I tend to agree with oakwood. All it is atm are assumuptions. As a guardian i really could careless what the block % on either is. Because no matter what they do you are still going to be able to tank fine if you know what you are doing. Posts like these make me feel some Guardians are too scared of some other tank class being as good. If a sk or paladin can block as well woopty do. Aegis of Alacrity is still sexy. Our mitigation buffs own. Persoally it is my opinion that clerics should be able to use tower or kite shields. In all Lore I have ever known clerics have been big time shield users. Normally morningstar w/ a big shield. However that isn't the point. Point is atm even with block % a non guardian wont be able to reach same peak a Guardian can since we can raise our mitigation high with our buffs. I dont see how this is a big effect to the Guardians. Just choose your shield and go. Is alot more to our class that makes us sexy. We dont need some wicked 5-10% blocking above knights from our shields to own.

Neuda · 05-12-2005, 08:52 PM

I still use the shield I got when I became a Guardian, and I'm a lvl 29.5!

Last night a guildie and I did the Zek access quest. He's a 27 Inq.

We aced everything including the boatride at the end (ok, so we died on the last mob with the 30++ captain and had to grab 2 casters to finish it off, the casters needed ride too.) We didn't know about the "secret" way to stop the orc harpoon mobs spawning, so we did about 9 waves of them before we figured it out.

Not too bad with a little kite shield and a 27 inky Inq for protection.

Oakwood · 05-12-2005, 11:32 PM

I know this is off topic, but what is the way to stop the orc harpoon mobs from spawning?

Xlap · 05-13-2005, 02:50 AM

target the harpoons and have the casters nuke them from afar

Sasaki Koji · 05-13-2005, 01:37 PM

You may say this, but my SK has more STR than every guardian ive seen on Lucan D'Lere

Kojiro

48th SK of Lucan D'lere

Wasuna · 05-14-2005, 02:07 AM

STR increases attack rating and power pool of fighters. As a Guardian, my primary concern is HP, mitigation and avoidance of melee and magic damage. While I'd love to have a bigger power pool I do not even focus on STR when I choose gear upgrades. I would suspect that many other fighters have higher STR than my Guardian and it makes no impact on me at all.

JNewby · 05-15-2005, 09:31 PM

Sasaki Kojiro wrote:

You may say this, but my SK has more STR than every guardian ive seen on Lucan D'Lere

Kojiro

48th SK of Lucan D'lere

I am sure you have more then me...cause I am a tank not dps so I want stam and agi

Xlap · 05-16-2005, 04:01 AM

as a paladin i wanted strength because that meant i could heal more...more heals is great

05-03-2005, 01:49 AM	#1
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Can somebody explain to me why a Kite Shield should be as good as a Tower Shield? I just can't see this. Are they going to go back and make all the Tower shields have better stats or something? There has to be some kind of reason for us to have Tower shields as a restricted class ability. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

05-03-2005, 10:44 PM	#2
Oakwood Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 150	Well, first we need to address your assumptions, that the kite/tower shield change will be going live as is. We have been repetedly told that the current combat testing will not be going live. Everyone keeps wanting to freak out as if they are despite this, and despite other portions of the combat testing have been changed then reset on Test already (parry buffing, for example). This change may or may not go live. There may very well have never been any intention of brining any of this live, since the behavior of the devs regarding the combat testing is in line with data gathering rather than actual changes to the final product (abrupt, gross changes to the system in seperate and independant stages). Again, parry buffing is a good example. They disabled all parry buffs, eliminating 100% of that system, let the testers play in this environment for a while to gather data, then reinstated parry buffing as it was prior to the test with no changes. But, assuming that some form of shield change is intended to go live, you then assume that the change is to the relationship between kite shields and tower shields. And you further assume that the final change will be a complete elimination of the difference in blocking between kite and tower shields. IF every one of these assumtions proves true, we may then question what purpose tower shields have, and what if any significance the tower shield skill has to Warriors. Even as the system stands now, many Warriors prefer certain kite shields to the availible tower shields in the same tier due to superior stats and effects. Of course, this is all based on quite a string of marginally supported assumptions, that support only being the Developers past tendancy to drop stuff on test and then publish it live with little to no thought. And we all know what happens when you assume... Message Edited by Oakwood on 05-03-2005 12:47 PM __________________ Phenyx - Warlock of Test Rashel - Provisioner of Test Ogruk - Guardian of Permafrost

05-04-2005, 01:28 AM	#3
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	I would have thought others would have been keeping track of the combat patches on test but I guess not. Also, my understanding of how things work is that you test what you want to try and see if it has the desired effect. Since the shield change was in two different tests I would think it has at least a fair chance of getting added in some form to the end pacth that does go live. Now for the education of some: Posted by Moorguard: 4-14-05: Shields now have the following base chance to block: Tower (20%, Kite (19%)... etc. 4-22-05: Kite shields now block with the same effectiveness as Tower shields. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

05-04-2005, 02:15 AM	#4
Oakwood Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 150	From the same post: Moorgard wrote: Note: The changes below represent a revision to the combat changes currently on Test server. *These will not* be moving to the live servers with the next update.** Please continue to see these as part of a work in progress. I will stand by my assesment of freaking out based on assumptions despite the evidence being to the contrary. IF these go live, we need to worry about it then. Until it does go live, if it ever does, we can do nothing about it. You may continue to ASSume anything you like, but untill we have hard data from live servers, try to avoid leading other people into your baseless frenzy. __________________ Phenyx - Warlock of Test Rashel - Provisioner of Test Ogruk - Guardian of Permafrost

05-04-2005, 07:41 PM	#5
Sir_Halbarad Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 4 Bayle Court, South Qeynos Posts: 509	If shields have an inherent block rate (Let's say 20%), what does the shield factor display then? A modification of the block rate maybe? If so, then Tower Shields should remain slightly better than Kite Shields (of the same quality/tier at least) because their shield factor is higher. __________________ Halbaradx - Guardian Dunamis - Splitpaw Dunamis is recruiting - visit us at www.dunamis-eq2.com Open Spots: Inquisitor \| Mystic \| Fury \| Sorcerer

05-04-2005, 11:57 PM	#6
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Oakwood wrote: I will stand by my assesment of freaking out based on assumptions despite the evidence being to the contrary. IF these go live, we need to worry about it then. Until it does go live, if it ever does, we can do nothing about it. You may continue to ASSume anything you like, but untill we have hard data from live servers, try to avoid leading other people into your baseless frenzy. First of all my post wasn't freaking out. It was an attempt to start a discussion about an item that will effect Guardians in some form. If you think you can sit back and say nothing and then after weeks of testing step up the day before a patch goes live with something you don't like and get it changed at that point then go for it. I, on the other hand, want to discuss the potentional impact of the post changes to the class that I play. I want to hopefully help direct the developers to a direction that would be benefical for what I feel my class should be. Basically I want to discuss the topic and hopefully lobby for what Guardians want. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

05-06-2005, 06:29 PM	#7
Xlap Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	ok, hear's my reasoning. You're holding a barn door, so yes, you'd block more hits coming from directly in front of you. you can't move it fast enough to block stuff coming from the front. you're holding kite shield. yyou are much more mobile aqand anle to move the shield to block

05-06-2005, 07:13 PM	#8
MastikFantastik Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 48	That's a good point. But rememebring that you are supposed to be a mass of muscle, that tower sheild would seem a lot lighter to you. I know for example (part of the reason my play time has been getting less and less) I have been going to the gym for about 3month solid (daily) and at first I would curl 45lbs and "feel the burn" after 3 sets of 15. But now I can do 70lbs 3 sets of 15lbs and barely "feel the burn". (Now I am not trying to get big looking muscles just strengthen and tone now). So it makes sense that if you are used to carrying around a barn door after time it would feel nice and light (well not light persay) but lighter. And then you could manuver it as easily as someone else that isn't as storng (str attribute is actually irrelevnant in point I am trying to convey) weilding that lighter kite Sheild. Not to say that a tower sheild would be as manuverable asa kite sheild but in essence it should provide more protection. __________________ Nathanious70 Guardian 37 Armorer of Undivide Faith- Crushbone - And metal covered punching bag of the baddies.

05-09-2005, 06:01 PM	#9
Xlap Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	woh! glad you could understand my point. lol i just re-read it and figured out that i should NOT post when im sleepy or in a hurry. and i know it would get lighter, but think about it, if you were fighting 3 enemies, 2 would come to the sides...you would NOT be able to move that barn door fast enough to block all 3 sides. not saying you'd be able to do it with a kite shield, but you'd block more from the sides. you'd block less from the front than a tower shield but more from the sides. i see this as getting the same blocking potential in different ways

05-10-2005, 06:24 AM	#10
Benaire Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 83	MastikFantastik wrote: That's a good point. But rememebring that you are supposed to be a mass of muscle, that tower sheild would seem a lot lighter to you. I know for example (part of the reason my play time has been getting less and less) I have been going to the gym for about 3month solid (daily) and at first I would curl 45lbs and "feel the burn" after 3 sets of 15. But now I can do 70lbs 3 sets of 15lbs and barely "feel the burn". (Now I am not trying to get big looking muscles just strengthen and tone now). So it makes sense that if you are used to carrying around a barn door after time it would feel nice and light (well not light persay) but lighter. And then you could manuver it as easily as someone else that isn't as storng (str attribute is actually irrelevnant in point I am trying to convey) weilding that lighter kite Sheild. Not to say that a tower sheild would be as manuverable asa kite sheild but in essence it should provide more protection. But the flaw in this thinking is that while you can move that barn door with ease cuse of your STR. It makes your kite shield that much easier too. If you can swing a barn door fast then you should be able to swing that kite at blinding speeds.(Edit) I think that Tower shields should have a very slight advantage over kite shields, but i think they should provide Knights with something to compensate for this. ATM pallies have heals, but i never played one so i cant comment. I do know that SKs havent got anything to make up the difference. Message Edited by Benaire on 05-09-2005 07:27 PM __________________ Darthbob Shadowknight/fury

05-10-2005, 12:05 PM	#11
blueduckie Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 259	I tend to agree with oakwood. All it is atm are assumuptions. As a guardian i really could careless what the block % on either is. Because no matter what they do you are still going to be able to tank fine if you know what you are doing. Posts like these make me feel some Guardians are too scared of some other tank class being as good. If a sk or paladin can block as well woopty do. Aegis of Alacrity is still sexy. Our mitigation buffs own. Persoally it is my opinion that clerics should be able to use tower or kite shields. In all Lore I have ever known clerics have been big time shield users. Normally morningstar w/ a big shield. However that isn't the point. Point is atm even with block % a non guardian wont be able to reach same peak a Guardian can since we can raise our mitigation high with our buffs. I dont see how this is a big effect to the Guardians. Just choose your shield and go. Is alot more to our class that makes us sexy. We dont need some wicked 5-10% blocking above knights from our shields to own.

05-12-2005, 08:52 PM	#12
Neuda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	I still use the shield I got when I became a Guardian, and I'm a lvl 29.5! Last night a guildie and I did the Zek access quest. He's a 27 Inq. We aced everything including the boatride at the end (ok, so we died on the last mob with the 30++ captain and had to grab 2 casters to finish it off, the casters needed ride too.) We didn't know about the "secret" way to stop the orc harpoon mobs spawning, so we did about 9 waves of them before we figured it out. Not too bad with a little kite shield and a 27 inky Inq for protection.

05-12-2005, 11:32 PM	#13
Oakwood Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 150	I know this is off topic, but what is the way to stop the orc harpoon mobs from spawning? __________________ Phenyx - Warlock of Test Rashel - Provisioner of Test Ogruk - Guardian of Permafrost

05-13-2005, 02:50 AM	#14
Xlap Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	target the harpoons and have the casters nuke them from afar

05-13-2005, 01:37 PM	#15
Sasaki Koji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 283	You may say this, but my SK has more STR than every guardian ive seen on Lucan D'Lere Kojiro 48th SK of Lucan D'lere

05-14-2005, 02:07 AM	#16
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	STR increases attack rating and power pool of fighters. As a Guardian, my primary concern is HP, mitigation and avoidance of melee and magic damage. While I'd love to have a bigger power pool I do not even focus on STR when I choose gear upgrades. I would suspect that many other fighters have higher STR than my Guardian and it makes no impact on me at all. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

05-15-2005, 09:31 PM	#17
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	Sasaki Kojiro wrote: You may say this, but my SK has more STR than every guardian ive seen on Lucan D'Lere Kojiro 48th SK of Lucan D'lere I am sure you have more then me...cause I am a tank not dps so I want stam and agi

05-16-2005, 04:01 AM	#18
Xlap Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	as a paladin i wanted strength because that meant i could heal more...more heals is great