A berserker looking for information on the Guardian

Daran · 04-07-2005, 11:11 PM

Greetings, well met. I would never consider myself an expert on most things, so I come here to try and glean some information from you all. Lately on the Berserker boards we have noticed that keeping agro OFF of us is proving very difficult. The common perception, whether true or false is irrelevant, is that the Guardian is the end-all-be-all tank. This of course made me wonder, when in a position of being an off tank or a secondary tank, does the guardian shine? I noticed that the guardian takes the Intervene line of abilities and really runs with it, so would a guardian do well to use those abilities on a berserker while he tanks the mob? thanks in advance, Daryn Bourne Lucan D'Lere

CherobylJ · 04-07-2005, 11:24 PM

This thread is so not going to not end well...

Daran · 04-07-2005, 11:55 PM

eek, did I term it that badly? I guess I'm asking for an honest evaluation of the guardians line of "absorb a percentage of damage for another party member" skills when used on another tank. Allow me to give an example from my side. I have an ability which allows me to increase the avoidance of another player by 22%, you bet I'm using that on any fighter who happens to be main tank. The few times I've been able to use it its worked fantastically. Perhaps If i term it a different way I wont start a class war, Imagine two guardians are in the same group both the same level, one has superior armor than the other so he is tanking, what does the other guardian do?

Banditman · 04-08-2005, 12:11 AM

A second Guardian would do his best to fill a DPS role, and probably put his +Avoidance buff on the MT.

Robyen · 04-08-2005, 12:24 AM

I play a 28th level guardian and I have grouped with another guardian before. If I'm not the MT, I switch to dual-weild...stay off taunts and I still use my protection spells on the healers and casters. I do not use them on the MT. If I'm off-tanking properly the mobs that do split off on the healer or casters is mine in no time. If not....they can still focus on the MT and I'm taking/parrying their blows for them. (THis is usually rare that I can'g peel the mobs off them)

Daran · 04-08-2005, 12:33 AM

ok this is good, so far we have an avoidance buff which i didn't realize you had, and we have someone using their protection on the priests and the mages. This is a good start, but has anyone tried using these abilities on the tank? I'm sure I'm not the ONLY person who thought that this would be a good idea. Also, when you use an ability to take the hit for another player, can you dodge/parry/block that hit?

Geothe · 04-08-2005, 12:59 AM

Guardians "taking hits" for the MT, currently, is a horrible Idea.

The damage taken in that case, is not mitigated, at all.

Also, the buff adding to the target's avoidence... it doesnt appear to be working at all. The person it is cast on, their avoidance rating doesnt change at all.

Death4 · 04-08-2005, 01:01 AM

We do well in Off-Tank roles, as any fighter would. The problem with a lot of our "Protection" based spells is...well, here's an example

Adept 1 Sentinel

50% chance to absorb 81% of the damage from another player. Blocked player takes 0% damage.

Where as that seems nice, it's not very useful high end. With mobs hitting harder and harder and only 19% being mitigated per that spell (Not the only one, just an example) we get destroyed. Don't forget, specials we absorb hit for 100%.

Although the "Allay" and "Stand Firm" stuff is good times for OT's, it really is best to skip out on the damage absorption spell line and just stick to DPS + Those two spells when OTing. And yes, I've block/parry/dodged a hit while guarding another player.

It usually gives a funky message too =)
"Andurith tries to hit you but he parries"

By the way, about the avoidance not showing up. That's because, if you read the description, it says "Gives a 20% chance to Block or Parry", meaning we Parry and Block for them.

English Da Gua · 04-08-2005, 01:17 AM

DaranHB wrote:
Greetings, well met.

I would never consider myself an expert on most things, so I come here to try and glean some information from you all.

Lately on the Berserker boards we have noticed that keeping agro OFF of us is proving very difficult. The common perception, whether true or false is irrelevant, is that the Guardian is the end-all-be-all tank. This of course made me wonder, when in a position of being an off tank or a secondary tank, does the guardian shine?

I noticed that the guardian takes the Intervene line of abilities and really runs with it, so would a guardian do well to use those abilities on a berserker while he tanks the mob?

thanks in advance,

Daryn Bourne
Lucan D'Lere

I know this is in reference to zerkers, but I will elaborate a little anyway.

The intervene line of spells are horrible. It is not complicated. Either you have an MT who tanks and maintains aggro or you find a new tank. The only spells a guardian should ever use are never surrender and allay. These add + effects to the MT while having no negative side effects. The intervene line is a lousy line and looks great on paper but that is where it stops.

All that line does it cause two people to take damage. Plus, if you cast it on a class with low mitigation and avoidance you actually take more damage then if you just did your job and maintained aggro on main mobs and adds.

Intervene gives a 50% chance to absorb damage, so if you rely on this spell you are screwed 1/2 the time. Also, it then takes the 100% mitigated damage a guardian would take and turns it into 135% of the damage split between two people. Again if cast on a caster type you actually take more damage because now you are not actually mitigating the damage.

If a zerker is the MT, a guardian should cast allay and never surrender on him. Problem is, a group should not have two tanks if you really want to talk about efficiency, I avoid all plate classes when I group. Not because they cannot fill a position, but when I want a group, I want it to be the best it can be. Usually a reactive or regen type healer, me, and 4 dps.

Plus, the groups on a raid usually do not have a zerker and guardian in the same group if the zerker is the MT, at least not for min / max raids, and allay and NS cannot be cast outside of groups. So really, yes, if on a raid and the two are in one group, the guardian, if not MT, should at least use allay and NS on the zerker.

It is not super hard to keep aggro off the zerker if he knows what he is doing. That being said, you all are one of the harder classes to keep aggro off of as the fight goes on.

Message Edited by English Da Guard on 04-07-2005 02:31 PM

Gaige · 04-08-2005, 01:38 AM

Geothe wrote:

Also, the buff adding to the target's avoidence... it doesnt appear to be working at all. The person it is cast on, their avoidance rating doesnt change at all.

This is because you aren't upping their actual avoidance, but shielding them with your own.

So like when I cast my avoidance buff on someone if I have "others hits" I think it is or "others attacks" on in combat spam, then I will see when they get attacked and I block/parry for them.

I'm pretty sure its like that for everyone.

Daran · 04-08-2005, 02:00 AM

thank you, I wasn't aware of the overall less than spectacular actual effects of the abilities, like you said it looks good on paper and paper was all I had to work off of. Again, thanks, problem with trying to think of new tactics, or thinking outside the box is that you run into unexpected things like this. Have to say though, IF the intercepted damage could then be considered like a hit against the guardian and was subject to being blocked/parried and mitigated I think the story might be considerably different here. Although that might be extremely overpowered and two guardians using the abilities on the other might cause some insane feedback loops that would easily exploited.

Message Edited by DaranHB on 04-07-2005 03:04 PM

Blade Park · 04-08-2005, 09:14 PM

Here's something I hope all the Berserkers read...

There is a Guardian and a Berserker in the same group, both the same level. The Guardian should tank and the Berserker should be on DPS. It is really easy to see. As a Guardian, we don't really do too much in the DPS department compared to other classes. Why don't you let us use our skills and you can use yours?

Yes yes yes, we all know... Berserkers / Monks / Shadowknights etc. are great tanks but depending on who you are grouped with, your role may change. Would you use a dagger when you have a sword? They both will get the same job done.

Huna · 04-09-2005, 12:36 AM

Blade Parker wrote:

Here's something I hope all the Berserkers read...

There is a Guardian and a Berserker in the same group, both the same level. The Guardian should tank and the Berserker should be on DPS. It is really easy to see. As a Guardian, we don't really do too much in the DPS department compared to other classes. Why don't you let us use our skills and you can use yours?

Yes yes yes, we all know... Berserkers / Monks / Shadowknights etc. are great tanks but depending on who you are grouped with, your role may change. Would you use a dagger when you have a sword? They both will get the same job done.

Well, berserkers do have skills that only work if the berserker gets hit. And guardians at least at my level (35) aren't that bad dps if they dual wield and go for dps. The Berserker should tank and the Guardian should be on DPS/Guarding the Berserker. It is really easy to see. SMILEY

(just messing with ya) Honestly I'm not sure that at my level it's clear cut who should be the MT if they are both the same level.

Chanliang · 04-09-2005, 01:38 AM

Honestly I'm not sure that at my level it's clear cut who should be the MT if they are both the same level.

The one who is holding aggro better, nothing to do with class...

Blade Park · 04-09-2005, 01:42 AM

Hunadi wrote:

Well, berserkers do have skills that only work if the berserker gets hit. And guardians at least at my level (35) aren't that bad dps if they dual wield and go for dps.
The Berserker should tank and the Guardian should be on DPS/Guarding the Berserker. It is really easy to see. (just messing with ya)

Honestly I'm not sure that at my level it's clear cut who should be the MT if they are both the same level.

Well I'm not up to that level yet and I can see the point of the skills where a Berserker has to get hit... But even without using those skills, I would think that a Berserker would still have a much higher damage output compared to a Guardian. Then again, it all comes down to who can do the best agro management so it depends on player skill as well.

04-07-2005, 11:24 PM	#2
CherobylJ Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 395	This thread is so not going to not end well... __________________ ---------------------- Flair Fifteenpiece - 54 Berserker of Guk, - Co-GL Infernal Requiem formerly Flair Shieldrender 70 Overlord of Fennin Ro "And as the Overlord raised his fist to the sky, the crowds cheered below. The soldiers began their familiar chant as the citizens joined in: "Strength in unity; unity in Lucan!"

04-08-2005, 12:11 AM	#4
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	A second Guardian would do his best to fill a DPS role, and probably put his +Avoidance buff on the MT. __________________

04-08-2005, 12:59 AM	#7
Geothe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,098	Guardians "taking hits" for the MT, currently, is a horrible Idea. The damage taken in that case, is not mitigated, at all. Also, the buff adding to the target's avoidence... it doesnt appear to be working at all. The person it is cast on, their avoidance rating doesnt change at all. __________________ Smed: We aren't going to be allowing RMT in any way, shape or form on the non-exchange enabled EQ II servers. Period. End of statement. Smed: 5) This [LoN] is not some slippery slope towards selling items directly in EQ & EQ II. Lie #3: Station Cash. Enough Said.

04-08-2005, 01:17 AM	#9
English Da Gua Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 203	DaranHB wrote: Greetings, well met. I would never consider myself an expert on most things, so I come here to try and glean some information from you all. Lately on the Berserker boards we have noticed that keeping agro OFF of us is proving very difficult. The common perception, whether true or false is irrelevant, is that the Guardian is the end-all-be-all tank. This of course made me wonder, when in a position of being an off tank or a secondary tank, does the guardian shine? I noticed that the guardian takes the Intervene line of abilities and really runs with it, so would a guardian do well to use those abilities on a berserker while he tanks the mob? thanks in advance, Daryn Bourne Lucan D'Lere I know this is in reference to zerkers, but I will elaborate a little anyway. The intervene line of spells are horrible. It is not complicated. Either you have an MT who tanks and maintains aggro or you find a new tank. The only spells a guardian should ever use are never surrender and allay. These add + effects to the MT while having no negative side effects. The intervene line is a lousy line and looks great on paper but that is where it stops. All that line does it cause two people to take damage. Plus, if you cast it on a class with low mitigation and avoidance you actually take more damage then if you just did your job and maintained aggro on main mobs and adds. Intervene gives a 50% chance to absorb damage, so if you rely on this spell you are screwed 1/2 the time. Also, it then takes the 100% mitigated damage a guardian would take and turns it into 135% of the damage split between two people. Again if cast on a caster type you actually take more damage because now you are not actually mitigating the damage. If a zerker is the MT, a guardian should cast allay and never surrender on him. Problem is, a group should not have two tanks if you really want to talk about efficiency, I avoid all plate classes when I group. Not because they cannot fill a position, but when I want a group, I want it to be the best it can be. Usually a reactive or regen type healer, me, and 4 dps. Plus, the groups on a raid usually do not have a zerker and guardian in the same group if the zerker is the MT, at least not for min / max raids, and allay and NS cannot be cast outside of groups. So really, yes, if on a raid and the two are in one group, the guardian, if not MT, should at least use allay and NS on the zerker. It is not super hard to keep aggro off the zerker if he knows what he is doing. That being said, you all are one of the harder classes to keep aggro off of as the fight goes on. Message Edited by English Da Guard on 04-07-2005 02:31 PM

04-08-2005, 01:38 AM	#10
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Geothe wrote: Also, the buff adding to the target's avoidence... it doesnt appear to be working at all. The person it is cast on, their avoidance rating doesnt change at all. This is because you aren't upping their actual avoidance, but shielding them with your own. So like when I cast my avoidance buff on someone if I have "others hits" I think it is or "others attacks" on in combat spam, then I will see when they get attacked and I block/parry for them. I'm pretty sure its like that for everyone. __________________

04-07-2005, 11:11 PM	#1
Daran Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Greetings, well met. I would never consider myself an expert on most things, so I come here to try and glean some information from you all. Lately on the Berserker boards we have noticed that keeping agro OFF of us is proving very difficult. The common perception, whether true or false is irrelevant, is that the Guardian is the end-all-be-all tank. This of course made me wonder, when in a position of being an off tank or a secondary tank, does the guardian shine? I noticed that the guardian takes the Intervene line of abilities and really runs with it, so would a guardian do well to use those abilities on a berserker while he tanks the mob? thanks in advance, Daryn Bourne Lucan D'Lere

04-07-2005, 11:55 PM	#3
Daran Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	eek, did I term it that badly? I guess I'm asking for an honest evaluation of the guardians line of "absorb a percentage of damage for another party member" skills when used on another tank. Allow me to give an example from my side. I have an ability which allows me to increase the avoidance of another player by 22%, you bet I'm using that on any fighter who happens to be main tank. The few times I've been able to use it its worked fantastically. Perhaps If i term it a different way I wont start a class war, Imagine two guardians are in the same group both the same level, one has superior armor than the other so he is tanking, what does the other guardian do?

04-08-2005, 12:24 AM	#5
Robyen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7	I play a 28th level guardian and I have grouped with another guardian before. If I'm not the MT, I switch to dual-weild...stay off taunts and I still use my protection spells on the healers and casters. I do not use them on the MT. If I'm off-tanking properly the mobs that do split off on the healer or casters is mine in no time. If not....they can still focus on the MT and I'm taking/parrying their blows for them. (THis is usually rare that I can'g peel the mobs off them)

04-08-2005, 12:33 AM	#6
Daran Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	ok this is good, so far we have an avoidance buff which i didn't realize you had, and we have someone using their protection on the priests and the mages. This is a good start, but has anyone tried using these abilities on the tank? I'm sure I'm not the ONLY person who thought that this would be a good idea. Also, when you use an ability to take the hit for another player, can you dodge/parry/block that hit?

04-08-2005, 01:01 AM	#8
Death4 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	We do well in Off-Tank roles, as any fighter would. The problem with a lot of our "Protection" based spells is...well, here's an example Adept 1 Sentinel 50% chance to absorb 81% of the damage from another player. Blocked player takes 0% damage. Where as that seems nice, it's not very useful high end. With mobs hitting harder and harder and only 19% being mitigated per that spell (Not the only one, just an example) we get destroyed. Don't forget, specials we absorb hit for 100%. Although the "Allay" and "Stand Firm" stuff is good times for OT's, it really is best to skip out on the damage absorption spell line and just stick to DPS + Those two spells when OTing. And yes, I've block/parry/dodged a hit while guarding another player. It usually gives a funky message too =) "Andurith tries to hit you but he parries" By the way, about the avoidance not showing up. That's because, if you read the description, it says "Gives a 20% chance to Block or Parry", meaning we Parry and Block for them.

04-08-2005, 02:00 AM	#11
Daran Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	thank you, I wasn't aware of the overall less than spectacular actual effects of the abilities, like you said it looks good on paper and paper was all I had to work off of. Again, thanks, problem with trying to think of new tactics, or thinking outside the box is that you run into unexpected things like this. Have to say though, IF the intercepted damage could then be considered like a hit against the guardian and was subject to being blocked/parried and mitigated I think the story might be considerably different here. Although that might be extremely overpowered and two guardians using the abilities on the other might cause some insane feedback loops that would easily exploited. Message Edited by DaranHB on 04-07-2005 03:04 PM

04-08-2005, 09:14 PM	#12
Blade Park General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 12	Here's something I hope all the Berserkers read... There is a Guardian and a Berserker in the same group, both the same level. The Guardian should tank and the Berserker should be on DPS. It is really easy to see. As a Guardian, we don't really do too much in the DPS department compared to other classes. Why don't you let us use our skills and you can use yours? Yes yes yes, we all know... Berserkers / Monks / Shadowknights etc. are great tanks but depending on who you are grouped with, your role may change. Would you use a dagger when you have a sword? They both will get the same job done.

04-09-2005, 12:36 AM	#13
Huna Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 215	Blade Parker wrote: Here's something I hope all the Berserkers read... There is a Guardian and a Berserker in the same group, both the same level. The Guardian should tank and the Berserker should be on DPS. It is really easy to see. As a Guardian, we don't really do too much in the DPS department compared to other classes. Why don't you let us use our skills and you can use yours? Yes yes yes, we all know... Berserkers / Monks / Shadowknights etc. are great tanks but depending on who you are grouped with, your role may change. Would you use a dagger when you have a sword? They both will get the same job done. Well, berserkers do have skills that only work if the berserker gets hit. And guardians at least at my level (35) aren't that bad dps if they dual wield and go for dps. The Berserker should tank and the Guardian should be on DPS/Guarding the Berserker. It is really easy to see. (just messing with ya) Honestly I'm not sure that at my level it's clear cut who should be the MT if they are both the same level. __________________ Drayden 70 Berserker/ 44+Tailor The Brethren Kithicor Server

04-09-2005, 01:38 AM	#14
Chanliang Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 198	Honestly I'm not sure that at my level it's clear cut who should be the MT if they are both the same level. The one who is holding aggro better, nothing to do with class...

04-09-2005, 01:42 AM	#15
Blade Park General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 12	Hunadi wrote: Well, berserkers do have skills that only work if the berserker gets hit. And guardians at least at my level (35) aren't that bad dps if they dual wield and go for dps. The Berserker should tank and the Guardian should be on DPS/Guarding the Berserker. It is really easy to see. (just messing with ya) Honestly I'm not sure that at my level it's clear cut who should be the MT if they are both the same level. Well I'm not up to that level yet and I can see the point of the skills where a Berserker has to get hit... But even without using those skills, I would think that a Berserker would still have a much higher damage output compared to a Guardian. Then again, it all comes down to who can do the best agro management so it depends on player skill as well.