Dungeon Maker - Back to being a waste of time

[Cabulus]

So, I tried out DM again after the patch this morning, both with my lvl 92 Pally (mostly EM gear, decent but not endgame) and with an Avatar.  Supposedly SoE "fixed an issue" with mob HP, because for whatever reason they were too low.  I certainly agree they were too low, as one hit usually killed any mob that had been decreased to lvl 88 via one of the marketplace level reducers.

BUT!...once again, they used a power drill where a screwdriver would have sufficed.  Instead of testing this huge swing in HP in advance, it was pushed to live after what....12 hours on test?

Pre-patch HP = Under 10k for a lvl 88 three down mob.  (which is low, I absolutely admit)

Post-patch HP = Over 200k for a lvl 88 three down mob.  (Really? REALLY?)

Talk about a slow grindfest if you're looking for tokens.  Not to mention the horrible exp compared to time investment.  It takes 10x as long to do a zone as it did, and it's entirely unplayable with an Avatar if there are more than 4 mobs standing close together.  I almost died to 3, and the next set had 4 in it.....death on that pull.  Oh my...what fun there is to be had in Dungeon Maker!

Now it was definitely easier on the Pally, but still a HUGE waste of time compared to what it was before.  Not that DM was ever that exciting, but I did have fun seeing some new zones over the weekend and it not being such a snoozefest wading through mobs that took forever to kill and yielded next to nothing for exp.  (Dizneyland After Dark on Unrest was well done, props to the maker on that one)

I thought you guys were really on to something when the "play as your toon" patch came in last week.  Turns out it was smoke and mirrors once again. 

"Have fun playing it YOUR way for a few days, but come Tuesday's update...You're in OUR world now!"

So disappointing.....

[Cyliena]

Cabulus wrote:

Post-patch HP = Over 200k for a lvl 88 three down mob.  (Really? REALLY?)

Wow. That is pretty lame. While I'm far from a fan of grind dungeons this really makes ANY dungeon a turn-off now.

[Yimway]

Sounds like a mis-placed decimal, 88 tripple down I would expect to have closer to 20k hp.

[Grumble69]

I'm going to bite my tongue and not dev bash.

...but I've got to say that I'm extremely underwhelmed at what is being pushed to live.  Maybe Atan is right and this is simply a misplaced decimal.  Regardless of whether it's an error or dev decision, I would be personally embarassed if my name were attached to DM.  It's a great idea.  They just can not make it work.  I'd cut them some slack if we were in the early stages, but this has just been a festering sore for SOE.

[Luhai]

Cabulus wrote:

Pre-patch HP = Under 10k for a lvl 88 three down mob.  (which is low, I absolutely admit)

Post-patch HP = Over 200k for a lvl 88 three down mob.  (Really? REALLY?)

I'm sure this is some kind of joke we just don't understand. It must be. I mean nobody can be THAT stupid.

First some genius at SOE nerfed the token gain by nearly 90%, removed the mysterious crates and now the Mobs' HP get multiplied by 20?

And that all happened within 1 week...

edit: and now even this: "Due to some issues that have been reported with Dungeon Maker, the tokens and XP are currently disabled (set to zero). "

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...opic_id=520283 

[Dexella]

Hi,

This issue was also brought up in the General Gameplay Discussion (here).

We are aware of the issues that have been reported, and we are working on them. 

As noted above, we have temporarily disabled tokens and XP (the announcement can be found here).

Thanks,

Dexella

[Shutat]

If you want to address the issue, try doing something INTELLIGENT. Try putting the HP and damage-dealing capabilities of mobs BACK to what they were, so people can actually PLAY the dungeons... Do NOT alter the EXP/Tokens given per run. Instead, increase the ammount of tokens needed to buy things. Problem solved.

People will be able to play the DM's again....

People WILL play DM's again....

People will actually enjoy themselves again....

People will want to devote time to aquiring tokens again....

People will use those tokens to buy things again (because they will be earning them once more)....

People will be able to quickly advance in levels/AA's, so they can start enjoying the "New Content" you all want us to enjoy....

To be honest, I highly doubt SoE even realizes what they had actually accomplished. The new DM setup that they had was fantastic in so many ways....

1:  It allowed people to quickly focus on grinding levels and AA's, without the need for a PL, thus eliminating the need to utilize illegal sites to purchase PL services with real money.

2: It also made it so those same people didn't need to burn plat in-game, for PL services.. Thus massively reducing the ammount of people tempted to utilize illegal plat-buying sites. Don't need plat if you don't have to pay for a PL.

3: It gave players a reason to make use of what WAS a fantastic addition to the game. Finally, a means for even new people to quickly grind levels/aa's so they could start working on the newer content. New people aren't gonna stick around for months grinding their first toon, just so they can finally play where everyone else is playing... DM's were helping to solve this problem. Sadly, SoE actually did something right UNTIL THE PATCH today... Granted, new players would still have to learn how to play their toon, but that is EASILY accomplished by getting into a guild and listening to a few players within the Guild for a day or 2 on how to play your new toon properly.

This is just a few things that made the new DM content more and more enticing. Considering how much SoE has been pushing toward making a DM that real toons can play in ***AT ANY LEVEL***, I find it extremely hard to believe that they would go and screw it all up by doing something so completely and utterly foolish. So what if people were grinding faster than expected? Now they can't grind in there at all. Earlier in this thread, a player posted about how his 92 pally couldn't even tank a group of 4 mobs in a DM without being splattered across the zone... If you don't want people to grind levels/aa's fast, then why do you even allow people to Powerlevel in the first place? What's the point in adding new high-level content, if you don't want new players to get up in levels quick so they can enjoy it? What's the point in adding new and amazing features to the DM, only to have them completely and totally ruined within a few day's time? You had something truly wonderful and praise-worthy.... If you care at all about your players, old OR new, you will stop wasting time, and reverse the patch/hotfix that was implemented... And you'd do it right now. The longer you wait to reverse what you screwed up, the more you're telling us you don't care what your players want at all. That in itself, is just simply bad business...

But hey, that's just my opinion... Maybe you really DON'T want people to enjoy your product afterall...

[Lyndro-EQ2]

Hey folks, here's an update on what's going on.

There is a broken file on live (The Amygdalan Protector). We're going to update that file with tomorrow's hotfix, but for the rest of the day today that creature won't spawn in anyone's dungeon. Pretty soon (Within the next hour hopefully), we're going to turn back on XP and tokens. The only thing that won't work as normal will be the Amygalan Protectors, which just won't spawn.

Sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience.

[Shutat]

Hey.... Gonna return mob HP and damage back to normal also so people can actually do a DM? Or that staying as-is so the DM will remain completely worthless to anyone and everyone?

[Lyndro-EQ2]

Dungeon Maker is using level agnostic data on live. If you are having issues with difficulty, we can take a look, but we need to know what level you are playing it at. Just reporting that hit point values are too high is kind of erronious data. Your damage output should be scaled according to the amount of hit points a mob has. A level 88 creature should have nearly the same amount of hit points as a level 92 creature in Dungeon Maker. This is as intended. You get benefits in DM for them being blue con.

What data points, specifically, are you having issue with?

[Mary the Prophetess]

There are several Dungeons using the Poet's Palace Layout that offered 500-800 tokens per runthrough.  There were like 50 mobs stacked together and by using the Scourge Knight Avatar with an AE that hit all the mobs (from a distance) in a stack, you could kill insane numbers of MOBs with a single hit.    You could run the dungeon (room) in 8-10 min and get 800 tokens.  Totaling almost 5000 tokens per hour.

Both those rooms are now empty, (I am sure by DM intervention) and the 500 token room just knocks you back to the player select screen.

These were obviously some exploit (though not listed as such) and have been disabled.  However in an attempt to fix whatever the exploit was, they may have broken something else.

[Seidhkona]

They are not nerfing player-made dungeons. They are fixing an exploit. One of my friends mentioned the details of said exploit to me this morning but was unaware that running the dungeons over and over taking advantage of it might be A Bad Thing. 

Once the crack is patched, they'll be back to awarding XP and Dungeon Marks. Give them a day to fix it. It isn't as if there are not other places to grind XP.

[Dreamclouds]

Please be careful how you use the term "exploit". This problem was found over the weekend and pointed out to devs sometime around Saturday night/Sunday morning, and a few ran some tests on test server. This one spawner was a broken file, and as the Dev pointed out in this thread it was not working properly. 

Dungeon making players have been trying to make cool and rewarding dungeons since the start of  DM. Searching for a spawner that was going to give great tokens was part of the fun..and that one was in game, hard to find, and in no way was an exploit by the player that made the dungeon.  They just stacked a few together and made it a fun way to get tokens and exp. They used the tools that were available in the game.

I am hoping that the players that made those dungeons do not feel bad for what they made... thousands of people played them and loved that they could get the tokens and exp. They did not reward instantly... you still had to fight for them and use a strong avatar!

Llandro said the file was broken and he is fixing it. I hope that there are still a few spawners that can add life (perhaps not as generous as the broken one) and fun to a dungeon. Maybe even having a few that DO give a lot of exp and tokens, but are limited in use (one per dungeon) would help interest in DM continue to rise.

But every time the word exploit is used, it is so negative. This was an error, and is being fixed. 

[Shutat]

It matters none, whether you are playing an avatar or a real toon. Mobs that had about 10k HP, now seem to have 200k+ hp. Before the patch, you could walking into a group of 4-5 mobs in a DM, and not even lose 25% of your health... Now, you walk into the same DM, and those same 4-5 mobs completely destroy a Lv.92 paladin with a merc beside him, before you can even kill half the group. Not sure about anyone else, but in all of the toons I've played, I've bever seen any toon with more than 60-65k HP... So non-heroic AND scaled down mobs now having around 200k+ hp, is NOT as intended. When you do an AoE damage ability, that does about 30-40k HP, and the mob hasn't even lost 1/3 of it's HP.... No way you can tell me that is as intended. The fact that any DM mob now can practically 3-shot any toon or avatar, at any level, is NOT as intended either, unless you intend for people to just go into a DM for kamikaze-type fun... Personally, doesn't seem too fun to me, but hey, maybe some other's will like the idea.

It's not really that hard to see what we're talking about.... All that's needed is for a Dev to actually take some time, and try playing one in various situations. Do it on LIVE also. Don't do it on test where crap keeps changing every 10 minutes. Do it on Live, where people are tired of struggling through the mess that has been made. 24 hours ago, you could literally succeed @ any DM you entered, and you could do it solo. Now, it's impossible unless you're doing a DM that only has 1-2 mobs per group, with insane wait-time to recover HP/Power after each run. At that rate it's simply better and less stressful to simply go run a dungeon in older content for grinding purposes, thus once again making it absolutely horrible for any new players to gain fast levels/aa's so they can begin enjoying your "New Content"...

So please... Have one of your lowbies get on Live... And have him run a DM. I know Unrest has a nice one to try out. #1 hall of fame spot also, so easy to find it. Play it as an Avatar, AND as a toon. You will quickly see it makes no difference. What I can truly tell you, is OUR damage dealt to mobs seems to be the same. However, mob strength and HP ammount have been altered by a drastic margin, and needs looking into. There is no way a dungeon that's been successfully ran solo for almost a month by countless players, should now be completely impossible to clear even the first room of.

[Shutat]

sorry, lag cause double-post.

[Vrix]

There's a character on the Freeport server that is spreading some vicious rumor.He claims that anyone that leveled in a dungeon that had the exploit (stacking of mobs) that all those characters would be rolled back and tokens/items removed.Is this true, to any extent?

Although am not affected by this, am merely curious if this was bogus or not.

[Visarax]

Hi SOE, I’m a returning player, I quit before you raise the level cap to 60 and I has only 20 plats with me, therefore I can’t afford to get PL, however I want to see end game content on at least one of my toon, questing lvling is terrible, I only get 2~3 level on weekend play with full Vitality (at least 8 hours play on my lvl 50+ toon), I’ll need to spend months before reaching lvl 92 and maybe weeks before I’m ready for raid, that seems too much work for me, before I give up I heard about this DM lvling, I topped up 9k SC during on 4^th July and got myself AoD and was loving the DM leveling part, I’m not a hardcore gamer I only managed to grind myself to lvl 72, now I can’t progress with DM anymore and I refuse to buy PL with real money.

 

I have to thank you for saving my wallet as I was tempted by your 25% gold membership promo, I don’t think I can spend 6 months in this game before I can start enjoying end game content. (I assumed I will enjoy it, maybe I’m wrong, that’s why I need to lvl fast to see it for myself.)

 

Yeah I know someone in this forum will flame me that I’m bad at leveling or wanted to get a short cut to see end game is wrong blah blah blah, however I have to vent out my frustration here, still got 4k SC with me, maybe I’ll get the SS expansion and some equipment unlocker and some XP pot, but after that, I’ll never be a re-returning player.

[Xzerius]

Title says it ALL.  I spent 3 days creating my dungeon.  I even used some of the level down items  because I had a bunch of mobs in the theme but it was way too hard to succeeed without several deaths.  I just tried to run it on my 92 SK  and after three  fail  attempts due to dying, even after popping  all of my  DP's and all of my hardest hitting  CA's  and AOE's I ended up killing   ONE  creature in TOTAL.  I hate to even know  what my dungeon would be like if it didnt even have the level down  items in it.  In any case, I wasted 3 days to end up with worthless crap and I have no intention of even revisiting it in this current state.   It' beyond being  TERRIBAD.  Another  /fail

[Cabulus]

Well, I've had some time to collect my thoughts, and I'd like to share some information gathered this evening.  Take it for what it's worth and make your own judgment calls.  I'm not a programmer, designer, developer, producer, etc. so I don't know what goes on behind the scenes.  (I do remember Atan from the LC days back on Quellious...does that count? )  Maybe the thought process is on the correct path, but it's deterred by the 12 foot ogre holding a 2 ton nerf bat?  I dunno...

So, let me set the stage.  As I said in the first post, my paladin is about average (maybe average +) for your casual player, not a raid geared toon by any means but not in garbage gear either.

Tester -  92 Paladin - 309 AA - WL quest gear and EM Skyshrine gear - All DMG spells and CA's mastered.

• No EXP potions were used

• 60% Bonus Exp for have 3 90+ toons

• 100% Vitality

• Empty Bladder

Testing - Creature HP's in Dungeon Maker as well as several other zones for comparison in later charts.

• First level 92 mob is the baseline.  There were no mods given to this mob.  Standard lvl 92.

• Levels 91 down to 88 were de-leveled using the Decrease Level I, II, III and IV items available on the marketplace

• DT4 stands for Decrease Tier IV, which is also available on the marketplace.  All tiers were tested, but since we're discussing the easy lvl 88 mobs being nerfed, only those will be posted.

LEVEL	Approximate HP	Combat Time (in seconds)	EXP Gained
92	340k	10	342
92 DT4	180k	4	143
91 DT4	170k	4	134
90 DT4	160k	3	125
89 DT4	150k	4	116
88 DT4	140k	5	107
*88 DT3	140k	5	107

*LvL 88 DT3 and LvL 88 DT4 give the same amount of EXP

Continued Below In Next Post.......

[Cabulus]

Similar "Outer World" Encounters:

Zone	MOB	LEVEL	Approx HP	CT	EXP
Stonebrunt	Void Crusher	88	32k	1 (one shot)	121
	Void Crusher	88 ^	47k	2	158
	Theerian Shadowblade	89 ^	48k	2	174
	Skeletal Blight Stalker	89	28k	1 (one shot)	118
	Hulking Undercrawler	89 ^	33k	1 (one shot)	118
Great Divide	Risen Snowfang Gnoll	89 2down	22k	1 (one shot)	126
	Frostbite Shadow Beast	89 2down	22k	1 (one shot)	126
	Lesser Ice Shade	89 2down	30k	1 (one shot)	151
	Risen Snowfang Gnoll	89	55k	2	503
	Frostbite Shadow Beast	89	55k	2	503
Eastern Wastes	Icegaze Basilisk	90 2down	60k	2	315
	Blizard Dervish	91	100k	4	580
	Mature Icegaze Basilisk	91^	170k	7	773

Quoting Lyndro:

"A level 88 creature should have nearly the same amount of hit points as a level 92 creature in Dungeon Maker. This is as intended. You get benefits in DM for them being blue con."

Am I missing something? A level 88 Decrease Tier IV (3 down) creature in DM has roughly 120k HP MORE than a level 89 Decrease Tier III (2 down) creature in the open world. And if that wasn't insult to injury, it's also worth less experience and takes 5 times as long to kill. (1 shot vs. a 5 second fight)

 

Continued Below In Next Post.......

[Cabulus]

Lets take a look at something else.  Another experiment. Combat Time (in seconds) has been abbreviated to CT in an effort to save space.

 

Setup: 92 Paladin - Chronomentored to LVL 50, which gives a 46% EXP Reduction

Zone	MOB	LEVEL	Approx HP	CT	EXP
Clefts of Rujark	Steelslave Vanquisher	54^^^	24k	5	1271

 

And another....

Setup:  92 Paladin - Chronomentored to LVL 65, which gives a 29% EXP Reduction

Zone	MOB	LEVEL	Approx HP	CT	EXP
Halls of Fate	Doomwing Destroyer	68^^^	33k	3	1451

 

Ok. Hmm. Lets do a little math, shall we? (Travel time from mob to mob is discounted of course, this is base kill time)

20 mobs in DM - Level 88 with Decrease Tier IV = 2,800,000 HP = 1 minute 40 sec. = 2140 EXP

20 mobs in GrDivide - Level 89 (2 down arrows, DT3) = 440,000 HP = 20 sec. = 3020 EXP

20 mobs in HOF - Level 68^^^ (chrono to lvl 65) = 660,000 HP = 1 minute = 29,020 EXP

 

Continued Below In Next Post............

 

[Cabulus]

I don't know about you, but those numbers for DM look HORRID when you consider the rewards. I'm speaking of level 92 rewards of course. We all know the lvl 90 rewards are garbage.

You basically get a Head piece and two charm slot items for 2500 marks. Oh, and the mount if you don't have one already for another 500. That's 3000 marks for 4 items. Then what? I'm all for playing House Hunters International in EQ2, but I'm not going to beat on a ton of mobs for half an hour to see how someone has decorated their "other" home. Like I said in my original post, I enjoyed seeing some of the well thought out zones this past weekend. Would I have been as happy if it had taken me 45 minutes instead of 10? No way....and I would NOT have visited another one if it had.

Look, don't get me wrong, I understand why you nerfed DM. You don't want people abusing the 500 mob group up. We get it! There are other workarounds though instead of nerfing it to the point that nobody wants to play it at all. For example:

1) Give each room a creature limit. I dunno, 50 in the large rooms, 15-20 in the hallways? How many REAL dungeons have more than that? Solves two problems. Farmers can still farm, but it takes them longer and removes the huge multi AE issue. Win/Win

2) Remove Vitality Use in DM. Slows down the leveling as well, but not as much as buffing the mobs HP by 120k+

3) Throw EXP debt back in DM. It's pointless in the Overrealm, why not make it pointless in DM as well? Oh how I miss the days when debt mattered and you had to recover your shard....THAT is what MMO's should be about. But then again...I'm old school....

In summary, I'm too tired to think of anything else to say. I think the charts pretty much speak for themselves though. I really hope you (the dev team) will consider what this HP nerf will do for DM in the near and extended future. Explore other alternatives if you don't want people to grind. I would rather DM not be a needless chore. As is stands after todays patch, that's exactly what it is.

 

[Terrorpeutic]

I don't see why SOE has to do anything to the HP, etc.  A blue triple down mob is easy outside of the dungeons.  Why can't the xp and tokens be lowered to a reasonable amount.  This way, people who like to see themselves kill many, many monsters in one hit can go enjoy that feeling in player dungeons.  While at the same time, they can't use those dungeons as a grind since killing 20 (or more) of those easy mobs will equal to killing one regular mob (in dungeon maker- I'm not comparing DM to non-DM since I see a lot of unnecessary differences between them).

[Asgoth]

Sweet, my first post and it's a complaint .

Obviously a previous poster has done a much better job of laying out the facts and figures, so I will not attempt to re-invent the wheel and will just post my own experience.

My main is a Brig that is in a raiding guild.  My PL toon is an SK.  Because of the Brig, my SK receives decent gear as alt loot seeing how our raid Tanks are pretty much geared with the content we have cleared.  So he has Skyshrine EM gear along with DoV stuff here and there.  Basically, he rock and rolls for PLing.

Sunday I was leveling a Pally on my alt account using my SK in DM.  I could pull entire rooms without a merc healer and not even break a sweat.  Yesterday, I logged in and got creamed the first attempt at a room pull in the exact same DM I had been demolishing on Sunday.  Not only were the mobs not dying as quickly but they were hitting harder and blowing through my wards.  I finally pulled up my merc healer just to survive.

Its obvious that the HP changes were dramatic and not just a simple tweek.  In fact, they have swung so much in the opposite direction I see no reason to do them for leveling or AAs when as a previous poster has mentioned, I could just got to previous content and get better xp at a much faster pace.  DMs were great for cutting down on the slow climb to 92 where all the real action of the game is.  If Unrest is like any other server, grouping below 92 is rare anymore, so a new player has an unbearable grind just to get a toon up to where they can enjoy the social aspect of the game.

The fix was done with the same grace as a bull in a china shop.

[TheSpin]

Rascal@Antonia Bayle wrote:

There's a character on the Freeport server that is spreading some vicious rumor.He claims that anyone that leveled in a dungeon that had the exploit (stacking of mobs) that all those characters would be rolled back and tokens/items removed.Is this true, to any extent?

Although am not affected by this, am merely curious if this was bogus or not.

I don't think anybody said it was happening, but they said they hoped it would happen.  (It might have been me)

I think if people are grinding 5,000 tokens, not to mention all the xp/AA, in an hour due to a bug it should be considered an exploit and the characters should be rolled back.

[Gaarysal]

This whole thing has been handled extremely poorly. DM was launched ~6 months ago after prior months of beta people complaining that the avatars were junk and wanted to play their own toons, the result hardly anybody played DM which was supposed to be a huge feature of AoD. ~3 months ago the first stages of testing with our own characters went on test, eventually it was pulled out and delayed. Few weeks ago it was put back on test then pushed live. When it went live I'm willing to bet it saw more traffic than it had over the past 6 months combined on that 1 day. After tuning and retuning this thing for literally several months, it saw the light of day and became fun for 1 whole day before it was nerfed into oblivion and is now a slow grindfest with no reward just as it once was.

Point being: why not just make DM a super fun slaughterfest like it was on day 1 of the 'play as your character' release? The xp from the zone as demonstrated above is not nearly as good as it is in overland zones, not to mention the amount of xp you get per run is capped. It is an extremely inefficient way to grind but it is super easy and allows low level players to reach high level without getting power leveled or spending hours waiting for a group or being able to group up with anyone lv 20-92 without mentor penalties and where gear quality really does not matter.

And if the devs are worried about people creating a super dungeon with large mob density and going in popping an unlimited target ae and zoning out, don't worry it is not possible. I tried this, placed 1000 mobs in a stack, first issue was the effect items bugged out and did not apply any effects to any mobs and the second problem was after 5-10s of combat the game crashed due to an excessive amount of data flooding the server, this happened 100% of the time at the exact same point each time.

Tl;dr DM is not the powerleveler's wet dream, it is a great place for lowbies to solo or group. After 6 months of being junk it was fun for 1 day and immediately nerfed. Let people have fun, make it the way it was last week. If the devs have no intention of making it fun, may as well abondon it entirely and focus on more important issues.

[Xzerius]

DM's  were made pointless once again.  I didn't use them to grind xp like some people seem to have created theirs for with zero originality and just stacked mobs in a partitioned off room.  ( I went into one of them and the lack of mob rendering was horribad )My real playable toons are all max EXP  AA and  very well geared out.   They get their heads beat in when I attempt to do anyones dungeon least of all my own which I built,   tried,  adjusted, tried, adjusted, tried, adjusted etc.... then it was done.  I did player dungeons for the tokens so that I could use them to buy builders and add better things to my dungeons such as  bosses or elites or effects.  I have an easier time raiding than I do trying to clear one of these player dungeons and at least in a raid I stand a chance of getting something worthwhile.  Player Dungeons are pointless  and completely NOT fun in their current state.

[Shutat]

Just tried Unrests's #1 Hall of Fame again.... DM that usually takes most people 20-30 minutes to do solo... Still completely impossible to solo even 1 room of it with a toon, or an avatar. For something that was supposed to get a hotfix today, doesn't look like much has changed, if anything. Unless they only modded that 1 file they tried removing in the first place, and once again completely forgot about what else got messed up in yesterday's attempts. Either way, still a complete and total waste of our time. This may be only a game, Sony, but it is a game where people PAY you for the product you provide. Last I heard, it's illegal to aquire people's money for a product under false pretenses. Very illegal indeed. You and your company has stated for weeks/months now, that the DM would be playable by any toon, at any level. PERIOD. You try taking any Lv.92 toon (or any toon of ANY level) into any DM you like. See how well it handles a group of 3-4 mobs. It CAN'T, not even with strength and HP reducers... Even fully raid-geared toons have expressed this. Mind putting things back before someone out there gets fed up enough to actually file litigation? Don't worry. Won't be me. I'm just too lazy for that. But I know there are LOTS of people who are NOT lazy. Don't let 1 of them take our money from you, simply because you all refuse to actually THINK and really TEST something before AND after you patch it. Not all bugs can be found in pre-testing. This I will admit to whole-heartedly. However, If you don't even have the brains to get on live after a patch implementation, and make SURE that nothing went wrong... Then none of you are deserving of our money in the least bit. I would advise you correct the situation fast, while you still can.

[Shadus]

If they really keep it up I'm sure they can drive all of their customers to some other game or at least keep them from bothering with future Sony and Everquest products.  They're developing a hell of a track record thats for sure... CU, NGE, LU12/13, MXO (the entire "game"-- although, to be fair it was an exceptional pigeon simulator), VG (launch), this fiasco, etc... never ends.  No other company has product lines and lauches CONSISTENTLY that people talk about the horror of for years on end and makes them want to avoid all their future products entirely.  Sony's problem is simple, they never work with simple tools, if it needs cut they don't use a simple saw or even a chain saw they use a industrial tree cutter.  If it requires a hammer they use a power hammer.  So now they've managed to destroy even the non-exploited dungeons completely across the board due to their going to extemes to nix the abuse of .1% of the population.  Is anyone ~really~ shocked?

[Shadus]

Gaarysal@Permafrost wrote:

Tl;dr DM is not the powerleveler's wet dream, it is a great place for lowbies to solo or group. After 6 months of being junk it was fun for 1 day and immediately nerfed. Let people have fun, make it the way it was last week. If the devs have no intention of making it fun, may as well abondon it entirely and focus on more important issues.

Once they have it nerfed to where no one will even enter the zones, I think you can reasonably expect this will occur.