Fleece

slippery · 03-20-2011, 05:24 AM

The ability is just ridiculous. It should not be one shotting people in a bunch of raid gear. It doesn't appear to be rangable, it definitely can't be interrupted, and is just way out of line. 2 golems? Oh I guess I'll just sit around and wait for someones ae avoid to come back up.....

So dumb.

When I have 175 crit mit, 11.5k mit, and 32k elemental resists, get hit with fleece for 44k and then take a 20k auto attack in the same second and die, on heroic content, something is flawed.

P.S. We went to all the trouble to show how much crit and crit mit we need, yet we don't even have a remote ballpark of how much resists we need against any of these mobs ae's. Suffice to say, the resist mechanic needs some work. It is a prime example of why diminishing returns are not good game mechanics.

Phaso · 03-20-2011, 10:01 AM

Crowd-control is still meaningful to groups that don't want to get fleeced.

P.S. Is this zone actually dropping loot now? A week ago all we were getting for the named chests was a Treasured with a stupid tradeskill component in it.

Crismorn · 03-20-2011, 10:59 AM

Mobs casting ae's while mez'd is also pretty dumb imo.

slippery · 03-20-2011, 04:07 PM

Percent based ae's in general are just really really dumb. Oh, you've out geared these mobs 4 times over? Don't worry, you are still going to die if you pull 2 because your gear progression means absolutely nothing. Better gear? We'll just hit you harder.

Hennyo · 03-21-2011, 06:13 AM

I am going to have to agree, percent based aoes are completely stupid in all forms, particularly for any mob that you could be pulling more than one at a time of, IE anything without a name. Also regarding fleece it was hitting me for 50k, and I have 40k elemental and 120 crit mit, so not sure exactly how far down you can bring the damage of this, but as it is, without a group avoid or just all together avoiding the ability, it often means a group wipe. I believe according the wizard in group, that the range of fleece is 31 meters, which is very hard to reach in the short amount of time you have to react being anything other than a dps mage.

On a separate issue, if you wanted a legitimate way to change the way resists work and make them meaningful, take a certain base percentage like say 60 percent and make it require like 15k resists to hit, then make it require double current resists to half the distance to 100 percent. So that would mean 30k would be 80 and 60k would be 90 percent. Remove the cap and compensate damage and resists accordingly. If you correctly balance mob aoe damage to compensate for HP, Resists, Critical mitigation, and ward procs, it would be possible to better balance encounters by forcing people to wear the new gear with the better resists and or crit mit and hp. Instead of trying to balance around both SF and DoV gear at the same time.

Banditman · 03-21-2011, 10:43 AM

The layers and layers of obfuscation surrounding mitigation is beyond ludicrous at this point. It's been a problem since forever, it's acknowledged, and yet despite multitudes of mechanical changes, we can't seem to get to the point of knowing, really knowing, how much mitigation we have.

Oh, and if that weren't enough, now different effects are "harder than normal to mitigate".

Hell, we don't even know what we're mitigating, let alone the difference between two effects based on "harder than normal".

LardLord · 03-21-2011, 07:01 PM

slippery wrote:

Percent based ae's in general are just really really dumb. Oh, you've out geared these mobs 4 times over? Don't worry, you are still going to die if you pull 2 because your gear progression means absolutely nothing. Better gear? We'll just hit you harder.

Yeah, I think we're seeing too many percent-based AEs. Strike of the Kromzek is fine in my opinion, but it gets old when you see several different abilities in the same zone that are percent-based (Strike + Fleece + boulder damage in Zek). It's frustrating because the game mechanics always taught us that increasing HP was good, but if anything, it makes things harder in these situations.

slippery · 03-22-2011, 12:47 AM

You know why crafters take off all their gear to craft? Because the reactions are percentage based, but your innate regen is level based. So you regen more power crafting without gear, because you regen power at a more efficient rate without gear. Percent based AE's mean you have to heal for that much more on mobs that should be hitting you for less because you have more gear

Dojac · 03-22-2011, 04:15 AM

Crowd Control, CROWD CONTROL! CROWD CONTROL IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fleece is completely managable with CC. Learn it and use it. The only reason people are having trouble with this ability is that the need for CC has been absent from heroic zones for a very long time and its not what they're used to. Peronally, (as an Illy) I love it. Fleece FTW!

Corydonn · 03-23-2011, 12:43 AM

I personally love Fleece and I hope it isn't changed.

Cloakentuna · 03-23-2011, 01:47 AM

CC stops Fleece, but only if the CC is on before the mob starts casting it. Once it starts casting, it is just going to keep casting it over and over and over again even if you CC. Can also range it or suicide a pet to it, once it lands it once, it never casts it again that fight, at least from what I noticed.

slippery · 03-23-2011, 02:54 AM

Was stunned, and proceeded to cast Fleece. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Hennyo · 03-23-2011, 03:06 AM

Lets see, mobs can't be charmed, we PULLED the mobs with both a stun and stifle and they still cast fleece through it. Also drag doesn't even work, an ability that will interrupt the vast majority of epic x4 mobs aoes at least momentarily. Not only that, tonight we also witnessed mobs casting fleece multiple times in a row after it successfully dropped everyone in the group without a death save up. Plain and simple, the ability is complete trash and needs to be looked at. You shouldn't have to have an aoe avoid up, or a stoneskin, sacrifice a pet to it or something equally dumb to deal with it.

Corydonn · 03-23-2011, 03:10 AM

Hennyo wrote:

Lets see, mobs can't be charmed, we PULLED the mobs with both a stun and stifle and they still cast fleece through it. Also drag doesn't even work, an ability that will interrupt the vast majority of epic x4 mobs aoes at least momentarily. Not only that, tonight we also witnessed mobs casting fleece multiple times in a row after it successfully dropped everyone in the group without a death save up. Plain and simple, the ability is complete trash and needs to be looked at. You shouldn't have to have an aoe avoid up, or a stoneskin, sacrifice a pet to it or something equally dumb to deal with it.

The tank runs in with a stoneskin or deathsave and everyone else stays 35 meters out until it hits. If a second golem comes just root it and stay away or kite it with snares. It's a straightforward ability.

Hamervelder · 03-23-2011, 06:50 AM

slippery wrote:

Was stunned, and proceeded to cast Fleece. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

This. Though the problem goes far beyond the golems in Temple. Other mobs in DoV instances do the same thing: You stun them, and they continue to cast spells. They won't move, or auto-attack, but they'll cast spells.

Hennyo · 03-23-2011, 06:58 AM

Been racking my head about ways to deal with this, because there has to be some other way to negate this. I believe enchanters can get an ability from AA that allows them to melee a mob and negate the next cast NPC racial ability. I believe the ability is called counter blade, but my memory may be a bit fuzzy. Has anyone tried this, and would they be willing to say if it works or if it doesn't.

Cloakentuna · 03-23-2011, 03:59 PM

slippery wrote:

Was stunned, and proceeded to cast Fleece. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

When I did the zone yesterday, if I pulled with CC and kept them CCd the entire time, they didn't cast it, but the few times I messed up and left them unstunned/stifled for ~1 second, they fleeced, the rest of the time they didn't. Maybe we just got lucky, idk.

If you don't have a tank with a stoneskin or whatever, just use an enchanter to root the mob then sacrifice their pet to fleese. It is a pretty dumb spell though.

Kilnger · 03-28-2011, 04:02 AM

Fleece is awesome. As an inquisitor I can reliably interrupt it and if we have a coercer in the group, fleece is pretty much a non issue. Last I checked, every single tank but shadowknight has a reliable taunt, nevermind healers and enchanters.

There are six people in the group. Fleece is extremely bright and obvious. Interrupt it. Or bring a dirge. Or a coercer.

slippery · 03-29-2011, 04:51 PM

At the time of the original post, if you read the thread, it was not interruptable. It is now, and is much more reasonable. Do not confuse taunts with interrupts, most of them are not.

Lamatu · 03-29-2011, 07:17 PM

slippery wrote:

At the time of the original post, if you read the thread, it was not interruptable. It is now, and is much more reasonable. Do not confuse taunts with interrupts, most of them are not.

Yes they are interruptible finally and this seems to be the best way to deal with Fleece now. A welcomed change indeed.

Maergoth · 03-29-2011, 10:00 PM

Because the only thing that can STOP casting is an interrupt. Everything else simply prevents it.

Fleece is also uninterruptable, however.

Best strat: Send a pet to eat it, send the tank in with a DI, have the priest joust in for heals and stay way out so you can rez everyone afterwards.

Kilnger · 03-30-2011, 02:52 AM

Maergoth wrote:

Because the only thing that can STOP casting is an interrupt. Everything else simply prevents it.
Fleece is also uninterruptable, however.
Best strat: Send a pet to eat it, send the tank in with a DI, have the priest joust in for heals and stay way out so you can rez everyone afterwards.

All tanks but shadowknights have an interrupt (It's their single target taunt, and for paladins it's judgement) and every given group will have at minimum two to four interrupts. Likewise, if your crit mit/HP is high enough, you can likely just soak it and cure it immediately and continue the fight.

I would also mention that Kael Drakkel's fleece and Temple's are different. In KD, I've been hit by fleece and survived to immediately cure it with nothing bad happening while in Temple it's almost always an insta gib.

Edit: By the way, it's interruptible. As far as I know, it always has been, though whether or not it interrupts has been spotty at times (I've had my interruption CA get parried and thus it did not interrupt).

03-20-2011, 05:24 AM	#1
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	The ability is just ridiculous. It should not be one shotting people in a bunch of raid gear. It doesn't appear to be rangable, it definitely can't be interrupted, and is just way out of line. 2 golems? Oh I guess I'll just sit around and wait for someones ae avoid to come back up..... So dumb. When I have 175 crit mit, 11.5k mit, and 32k elemental resists, get hit with fleece for 44k and then take a 20k auto attack in the same second and die, on heroic content, something is flawed. P.S. We went to all the trouble to show how much crit and crit mit we need, yet we don't even have a remote ballpark of how much resists we need against any of these mobs ae's. Suffice to say, the resist mechanic needs some work. It is a prime example of why diminishing returns are not good game mechanics. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

03-20-2011, 04:07 PM	#4
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	Percent based ae's in general are just really really dumb. Oh, you've out geared these mobs 4 times over? Don't worry, you are still going to die if you pull 2 because your gear progression means absolutely nothing. Better gear? We'll just hit you harder. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

03-21-2011, 10:43 AM	#6
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	The layers and layers of obfuscation surrounding mitigation is beyond ludicrous at this point. It's been a problem since forever, it's acknowledged, and yet despite multitudes of mechanical changes, we can't seem to get to the point of knowing, really knowing, how much mitigation we have. Oh, and if that weren't enough, now different effects are "harder than normal to mitigate". Hell, we don't even know what we're mitigating, let alone the difference between two effects based on "harder than normal". __________________

03-21-2011, 07:01 PM	#7
LardLord Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,515	slippery wrote: Percent based ae's in general are just really really dumb. Oh, you've out geared these mobs 4 times over? Don't worry, you are still going to die if you pull 2 because your gear progression means absolutely nothing. Better gear? We'll just hit you harder. Yeah, I think we're seeing too many percent-based AEs. Strike of the Kromzek is fine in my opinion, but it gets old when you see several different abilities in the same zone that are percent-based (Strike + Fleece + boulder damage in Zek). It's frustrating because the game mechanics always taught us that increasing HP was good, but if anything, it makes things harder in these situations.

03-22-2011, 12:47 AM	#8
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	You know why crafters take off all their gear to craft? Because the reactions are percentage based, but your innate regen is level based. So you regen more power crafting without gear, because you regen power at a more efficient rate without gear. Percent based AE's mean you have to heal for that much more on mobs that should be hitting you for less because you have more gear __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

03-20-2011, 10:01 AM	#2
Phaso Server: Unrest Guild: Disciples of Destiny Rank: Active Raider Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 85	Crowd-control is still meaningful to groups that don't want to get fleeced. P.S. Is this zone actually dropping loot now? A week ago all we were getting for the named chests was a Treasured with a stupid tradeskill component in it.

03-20-2011, 10:59 AM	#3
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	Mobs casting ae's while mez'd is also pretty dumb imo.

03-21-2011, 06:13 AM	#5
Hennyo Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 371	I am going to have to agree, percent based aoes are completely stupid in all forms, particularly for any mob that you could be pulling more than one at a time of, IE anything without a name. Also regarding fleece it was hitting me for 50k, and I have 40k elemental and 120 crit mit, so not sure exactly how far down you can bring the damage of this, but as it is, without a group avoid or just all together avoiding the ability, it often means a group wipe. I believe according the wizard in group, that the range of fleece is 31 meters, which is very hard to reach in the short amount of time you have to react being anything other than a dps mage. On a separate issue, if you wanted a legitimate way to change the way resists work and make them meaningful, take a certain base percentage like say 60 percent and make it require like 15k resists to hit, then make it require double current resists to half the distance to 100 percent. So that would mean 30k would be 80 and 60k would be 90 percent. Remove the cap and compensate damage and resists accordingly. If you correctly balance mob aoe damage to compensate for HP, Resists, Critical mitigation, and ward procs, it would be possible to better balance encounters by forcing people to wear the new gear with the better resists and or crit mit and hp. Instead of trying to balance around both SF and DoV gear at the same time.

03-22-2011, 04:15 AM	#9
Dojac Server: Vox Guild: Storms Brew Rank: Boss Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 167	Crowd Control, CROWD CONTROL! CROWD CONTROL IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fleece is completely managable with CC. Learn it and use it. The only reason people are having trouble with this ability is that the need for CC has been absent from heroic zones for a very long time and its not what they're used to. Peronally, (as an Illy) I love it. Fleece FTW!

03-23-2011, 12:43 AM	#10
Corydonn Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 744	I personally love Fleece and I hope it isn't changed.

03-23-2011, 01:47 AM	#11
Cloakentuna Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 853	CC stops Fleece, but only if the CC is on before the mob starts casting it. Once it starts casting, it is just going to keep casting it over and over and over again even if you CC. Can also range it or suicide a pet to it, once it lands it once, it never casts it again that fight, at least from what I noticed.

03-23-2011, 02:54 AM	#12
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	Was stunned, and proceeded to cast Fleece. I don't know what you guys are talking about. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

03-23-2011, 03:06 AM	#13
Hennyo Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 371	Lets see, mobs can't be charmed, we PULLED the mobs with both a stun and stifle and they still cast fleece through it. Also drag doesn't even work, an ability that will interrupt the vast majority of epic x4 mobs aoes at least momentarily. Not only that, tonight we also witnessed mobs casting fleece multiple times in a row after it successfully dropped everyone in the group without a death save up. Plain and simple, the ability is complete trash and needs to be looked at. You shouldn't have to have an aoe avoid up, or a stoneskin, sacrifice a pet to it or something equally dumb to deal with it.

03-23-2011, 03:10 AM	#14
Corydonn Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 744	Hennyo wrote: Lets see, mobs can't be charmed, we PULLED the mobs with both a stun and stifle and they still cast fleece through it. Also drag doesn't even work, an ability that will interrupt the vast majority of epic x4 mobs aoes at least momentarily. Not only that, tonight we also witnessed mobs casting fleece multiple times in a row after it successfully dropped everyone in the group without a death save up. Plain and simple, the ability is complete trash and needs to be looked at. You shouldn't have to have an aoe avoid up, or a stoneskin, sacrifice a pet to it or something equally dumb to deal with it. The tank runs in with a stoneskin or deathsave and everyone else stays 35 meters out until it hits. If a second golem comes just root it and stay away or kite it with snares. It's a straightforward ability.

03-23-2011, 06:50 AM	#15
Hamervelder Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,585	slippery wrote: Was stunned, and proceeded to cast Fleece. I don't know what you guys are talking about. This. Though the problem goes far beyond the golems in Temple. Other mobs in DoV instances do the same thing: You stun them, and they continue to cast spells. They won't move, or auto-attack, but they'll cast spells. __________________ Elhonas Warden of Mayhem, Antonia Bayle

03-23-2011, 06:58 AM	#16
Hennyo Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 371	Been racking my head about ways to deal with this, because there has to be some other way to negate this. I believe enchanters can get an ability from AA that allows them to melee a mob and negate the next cast NPC racial ability. I believe the ability is called counter blade, but my memory may be a bit fuzzy. Has anyone tried this, and would they be willing to say if it works or if it doesn't.

03-23-2011, 03:59 PM	#17
Cloakentuna Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 853	slippery wrote: Was stunned, and proceeded to cast Fleece. I don't know what you guys are talking about. When I did the zone yesterday, if I pulled with CC and kept them CCd the entire time, they didn't cast it, but the few times I messed up and left them unstunned/stifled for ~1 second, they fleeced, the rest of the time they didn't. Maybe we just got lucky, idk. If you don't have a tank with a stoneskin or whatever, just use an enchanter to root the mob then sacrifice their pet to fleese. It is a pretty dumb spell though.

03-28-2011, 04:02 AM	#18
Kilnger Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 111	Fleece is awesome. As an inquisitor I can reliably interrupt it and if we have a coercer in the group, fleece is pretty much a non issue. Last I checked, every single tank but shadowknight has a reliable taunt, nevermind healers and enchanters. There are six people in the group. Fleece is extremely bright and obvious. Interrupt it. Or bring a dirge. Or a coercer. __________________ Archon Minaka Nisumari Inquisitor/Carpenter Maestra Kilandara Zomerana Troubadour The Maestro of Darkshine Initiative A lack of a fancy signature makes one strong with the force.

03-29-2011, 04:51 PM	#19
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	At the time of the original post, if you read the thread, it was not interruptable. It is now, and is much more reasonable. Do not confuse taunts with interrupts, most of them are not. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

03-29-2011, 07:17 PM	#20
Lamatu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 220	slippery wrote: At the time of the original post, if you read the thread, it was not interruptable. It is now, and is much more reasonable. Do not confuse taunts with interrupts, most of them are not. Yes they are interruptible finally and this seems to be the best way to deal with Fleece now. A welcomed change indeed. __________________

03-29-2011, 10:00 PM	#21
Maergoth Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 733	Because the only thing that can STOP casting is an interrupt. Everything else simply prevents it. Fleece is also uninterruptable, however. Best strat: Send a pet to eat it, send the tank in with a DI, have the priest joust in for heals and stay way out so you can rez everyone afterwards. __________________ Jaraxx tells you, 'Why did you die? Man up. Ask for DI from your priests' You tell Jaraxx, 'I had a "save" running..' http://tinyurl.com/PaladinFeedback

03-30-2011, 02:52 AM	#22
Kilnger Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 111	Maergoth wrote: Because the only thing that can STOP casting is an interrupt. Everything else simply prevents it. Fleece is also uninterruptable, however. Best strat: Send a pet to eat it, send the tank in with a DI, have the priest joust in for heals and stay way out so you can rez everyone afterwards. All tanks but shadowknights have an interrupt (It's their single target taunt, and for paladins it's judgement) and every given group will have at minimum two to four interrupts. Likewise, if your crit mit/HP is high enough, you can likely just soak it and cure it immediately and continue the fight. I would also mention that Kael Drakkel's fleece and Temple's are different. In KD, I've been hit by fleece and survived to immediately cure it with nothing bad happening while in Temple it's almost always an insta gib. Edit: By the way, it's interruptible. As far as I know, it always has been, though whether or not it interrupts has been spotty at times (I've had my interruption CA get parried and thus it did not interrupt). __________________ Archon Minaka Nisumari Inquisitor/Carpenter Maestra Kilandara Zomerana Troubadour The Maestro of Darkshine Initiative A lack of a fancy signature makes one strong with the force.