Destiny of Velious Mystic

[Banditman]

Disclaimer:  For some misbegotten and unfathomable reason, beta was closed a week before release.  As you may know, this is without precedent in the history of EQ2.  Anything I tell you here may be completely wrong by the time we see the official release of Destiny of Velious.  What I'm telling you here is based upon the state of the expansion at the time beta was closed.OverallIf you read nothing else, read this:  Mystics are in a far better state in DoV than many classes (read disclaimer again!).  This isn't to say there aren't issues, but by comparison, we are in good shape.  This is not an endorsement of DoV by any means, this is merely a subjective observation of the state of the Mystic class as compared to some of the other classes.MechanicsCrit ChanceThe one thing we've counted on since late RoK / TSO is 100% crit rates against everything.  Forget it.  Crit chance is now a "contested" stat.  Mobs have what is called Crit Avoidance.  There are certain zones (entire zones!) that put a debuff on you that reduces your crit chance.We were told that there would be a buff on mobs that have Crit Avoidance to allow us to see how much they have.  There has been precious little evidence of this buff.  Good luck figuring out how much you need.Yes, this applies to your Wards and Heals.  In short, in Destiny of Velious, *nothing* is more important than crit chance.  If you don't crit, it feels like you barely even cast a spell.  It can be disasterous.Crit BonusThis was *not* fixed.  Our Wards are still only getting half value from Crit Bonus.  Sorry.  This was brought up in beta, and subsequently ignored.StaminaStamina is *uncapped* in this expansion.  Better yet, it *appears* to be linear.  One additional point of Stamina is worth the same number of hit points regardless of how much Stamina you already have.More importantly, all +HP values on items have been replaced with Stamina.  Items no longer have HP and Power on them.  The simply have Stamina and "whatever" the stat might be depending on what class the item was intended for.WisdomWisdom no longer affects your resists, at all.  It no longer affects anyone's resists, at all.  It only adds to a Priest's power pool, and increases their damage output.  No one but a Priest gets any benefit from Wisdom, at all.IntelligenceIntelligence no longer adds Crit Mit to Priests and Mages.  No one but a Mage gets any benefit from Intelligence, at all.Strength, AgilityStrength no longer affects carry weight.  Agility no longer affects avoidance.  There is no benefit to these stats for a Priest, at all.PetsControllable pets, which include dogdog, now share our stats.  This is actually a decent little bonus for us.  Dogdog is a bit more robust now.  He gets the benefits of our Wisdom, crit chance and crit bonus.  He may get our DPS mod and Haste as well, but since my Conjuror didn't have any of those to share, and because we cannot possess our dog, I can't say for sure.  I suspect he will get those bonuses.He's still not going to tank any mobs for you, but, he is a little tougher and does a little more damage.  He's also getting a new AA line, which I'll cover later.ItemizationOverall, itemization is a mess.  While this is pretty much par for the course when you talk about any EQ2 expansion, I continue to hope that one day they manage to get it right at the beginning of the expansion.  This won't be the expansion it happens.HP / PowerI touched on this a bit in the Mechanics section.  Items no longer have the +HP and +Power stat lines on them.  It's been replaced by increases to the primary stat of the Archtype for whom the item was intended and Stamina.  For instance, a Priest item might have 85 Wisdom and 85 Stamina on it.  No HP, no Power.Melee Priest gearFuggedaboudit.  We aren't getting any.  Directly from the item Dev, they have absolutely no intention of itemizing for melee Priests.  Further, we can no longer use most of the Scout gear.

ResistsResistance numbers are moving.  Resists are found on jewelry, in copious amounts.  There are no longer any resists on armor.  Thus, in the beginning of the expansion, you'll want to prioritize jewelry aquisition so that when you begin replacing your armor, you don't have your resists fall off a cliff.

Focus EffectsSome of our Focus effects are moving into the armor itself, no longer from Red Adornments.  I don't have the exact items at hand to give you anything more specific right now.

Crit MitCrit Mit is now on all armor, yes, even heroic zone items.  Obviously, raid armor has a lot more, but even heroic mobs can now crit.

ProcsOf all kinds, have been mostly removed.  Very very few items have procs, and what procs do exist are largely slot restricted or purchased via adornment.  Initially in beta, SF Ward proc items did not work in Velious zones.  SOE *reluctantly* reversed course on this, but I would not be surprised to see a reversal of the reversal.Heroic AA'sThis is what they are calling the new AA page.  It's very creative, don't you think?  Even more creative and intriguing is that there are no unique abilities for any class.It is structured "vaguely" like the Shadows tree:  4 lines of abilities, must spend 10 points in one line to get to the next.  There are overall spending requirements in addition to the 10 in prior line, and in the end you'll need at least 277 AA to reach one of your endline abilities, of which you can only have one.Each ability, save the endlines, has 10 ranks, 1 point per rank.  There is only one rank for the endlines, which costs 2 point.The first two lines are exactly the same among *all* classes.

Line 1:Stats - 16.8 STR, WIS, AGI, INT per rank, 10 ranks.Ability mod - 33.6 Ability mod per rank, 10 ranks.Health & Power - .5% Health and Power per rank, 10 ranksLine 2:Potency - .5 Potency per rank, 10 ranksCrit Bonus - .5 Crit Bonus per rank, 10 ranksRe-Use - .5 Re-use per rank, 10 ranksLine 3:Enhance: Ancestral Channeling - 10% reduction in power cost per rank, last rank adds 1 additional tick.Enhance: Spirit Companion - Adds stoneskin proc to dogdog.  .6 times per minute, per rank.  6 per minute at final rank.  Stoneskin has 30% chance of affecting the Shaman.Spirituality - Increase the effectivness of Attack Speed, DPS and Attribute debuffs by 3% per rank.Spiritfire - 1% Accuracy and 2% Multi-Attack per rank.  Also adds a damage shield to the Shaman.  50% chance to proc every time the Shaman is damaged.  Damage increases with ranks.  Damage = 416 - 624 at Rank 10.Line 4:Avenging Ancestors - Massive AE with DoT.  It's a little hard to explain, but basically it is just brutal against large numbers of targets.  Recast is 70 seconds with 30% re-use.Totemic Protection - Temp buff, Group Friend.  5% of the damage (before mitigation) taken by the target is converted into a heal for the group.  Target of the heal doesn't get the heal unless the target is the Shaman.  Cast .13, Recast 1:34 (30% reuse)Spirit Aegis - Wards each member of the group for 5200 HP.  3 second cast time (not affected by cast haste).  2:20 Recast (30% reuse).

[Striikor]

It would have been nice if they had addressed three things, they did not:

If they changed Spirit Tap to be encounter based damage. Target based is absolutely useless in BG and multimob encounters. It would not be overpowering as in a raid now it easily fills and maintains power when everyone is targeting a high hit point mob.

We should get immunity as a base spell with the AA increasing duration and reducing recast.

Wards need to be effective against everything heals are (Focus damage)!

[Banditman]

While those would be nice, I honestly think our biggest challenge is getting Crit Bonus to work properly on Wards.  Until they fix that, both Shaman classes are going to be unnecessarily nerfed with regards to current endgame itemization. 

There are two uncapped stats that affect overall effectiveness:  Crit Bonus and Potency.  Our healing abilities are currently heavily penalized with regards to Crit Bonus, and that needs to stop.  As a melee Priest, we are impacted even more severely than a Caster.  We *need* Crit Bonus since a not insignificant portion of our damage comes from auto attack.  Yet that is the stat that our healing abilities need marginalized.  It's a huge circle jerk.

[Striikor]

Agreed, but I still wish they had addressed the three I mentioned. I did not hold any hope they would fix CB

[Banditman]

Strangely, I did have some hope they would fix Crit Bonus.  One of the developers at one point commented about it and agreed that it needed to be addressed.  Unfortunately, history tells us that there is very little chance of seeing it fixed before the expansion after DoV now.

[Lark42]

The stat consolidation genuinely makes me want to rage...RAGE!!!!!!

I'll make a more coherent post on this topic once my blood stops boiling and I have time to gather my thoughts into something more than a stream of four letter words.

[Banditman]

Don't waste your time or energy.  We tried to fight that battle in beta but there was absolutely no Dev traction on the issue.  It's really more a case of my continued disagreement with the methods employed by the Dev team.

See, what this Dev team does is pre-emptively *try* to anticipate all potential exploits and stomp them out ahead of time.  Obviously, they still miss some despite what I really believe are their best efforts.  Of course, how does that play in to stat consolidation?  Glad you asked.

With stats consolidated, it lowers the number of potential variables they deal with, making it, in theory, somewhat easier to spot and pre-emptively kill some exploits.

Now, I applaud the effort to maintain the integrity of the game.  Really.  I do.  However, you can get just as good a return, and a lot more good will, by being quickly reactive as well.  Instead, this Dev team puts so much effort into the pro-active side of their equation, that their reactive side is just anemic.

Class balancing actually bears this philosophy out better.  Instead of making just small tweaks here and there, often and consistently, the Dev team waits and waits and waits on making *any* meaningful adjustments until things are so far out of whack they can no longer ignore it . . . and even then, they sometimes do nothing . . . or they go too far and ignore it.  Again, failing to react.

[Nahlis]

I'm seriously looking for help here folks.  I played a Mystic from launch through to just after Kunark and then left EQ2 for a while.  When I came back a couple months ago I levelled myself up.  Soloing was a bit slow, but I was still very effective in groups so I didn't sweat it.  In DoV though soloing is absolutely *PAINFUL*.  It literally takes 2-3 minutes to kill some solo mobs.  That's insanely long. for a fight against a solo mob.  I know I'm missing something, this can't be intended, so any guidance you all can give me as to how to correct this would be VERY appreciated.  At first I thought it was the stat changes, but even after making my slow way through the starting quests and getting the new gear the problem remains.  I have all my spells through 88 (my current level) at Expert or Master.   Thanks in advance.

~Vanyari the DPSless Mystic~

[Odys]

I seems that SOE stopped to consider Eq2 as long term projet.

What irritate me furiously is the fact that the Battlepriest idea is more or less gone. You mentioned that no itemization was designed for Battlepriest.

It already started in SF, indeed with spell haste and spell reuse I believe that  any battlepriest with good gear is pobably now doing more damage meleing and casting than spells than meleing and using CA.

People in charge are just too few to maintain Eq2.

The new AAs are also proving how narrow are the human ressources at SOE now.

None of the new AAS cover any of our concerns :

1) ward scaling

2) Interupt

3) cure

4) Battlepriest scaling.

[Banditman]

Nahlis@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I'm seriously looking for help here folks.  I played a Mystic from launch through to just after Kunark and then left EQ2 for a while.  When I came back a couple months ago I levelled myself up.  Soloing was a bit slow, but I was still very effective in groups so I didn't sweat it.  In DoV though soloing is absolutely *PAINFUL*.  It literally takes 2-3 minutes to kill some solo mobs.  That's insanely long. for a fight against a solo mob.  I know I'm missing something, this can't be intended, so any guidance you all can give me as to how to correct this would be VERY appreciated.  At first I thought it was the stat changes, but even after making my slow way through the starting quests and getting the new gear the problem remains.  I have all my spells through 88 (my current level) at Expert or Master.   Thanks in advance.

~Vanyari the DPSless Mystic~

This is your problem right here.

If you are trying to use spells to kill these mobs you're really going about it the wrong way.  Mystics are one of the melee priests.  You need to spec that way and embrace it.  If you don't, you're nothing but a Defiler with fewer DPS spells.

Try something like this for an AA spec.  It's really not good for much aside from solo'ing, though you could probably do fine healing a group with it.  I don't recommend it for raid healing.

You need a big 2H weapon with a slow delay and a big top end damage number.  Not knowing your personal itemization, if you are lacking DPS mod, get a couple of the Mastercrafted Strength rings to pump that number up.  If you don't have something with Haste on it, get one of the Mastercrafted cloaks with Haste.

With the right itemization and the above AA spec, you should rarely even be casting heals / wards during the course of fighting solo mobs.  I use something very similar to that AA spec, and I rarely even bother to pre-Ward anymore - Spiritual Leadership procs pretty quickly for me.

[Nahlis]

Thanks Banditman, very much appreciate the help.  I'm still short on AA for the full spec your referenced but will definately do what I can to start along that path.  Given that, do you recommend concentrating on one tree over another?

I'll switch to a 2-hander (have a nice Fabled Spear ready for 90) and work on getting some Haste and DPS mods.  In an actual encounter though I assume you use your attack spells anyway though right?  I mean we don't have much in the way of attack abilities (can think of one) so it seems like this is mostly just using auto-attack and may as well use the spells in the meantime... or am I still missing something?

Thanks again for the advice, lookign forward to trying it asap.

[Odys]

For haste there is a belt on palace first named and old gloves from TSO raid (hybrid ones) may have some. I still cannot log on live so i cannot tell how hard are DOV mobs.

Get mainly Litany of combat and the double attack in shadow, get anything that can help your melee and your CA dps.

Improved tribal rage + improved runic armor may be enough to alllow you to never heal yourself.

[Banditman]

Nahlis@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Thanks Banditman, very much appreciate the help.  I'm still short on AA for the full spec your referenced but will definately do what I can to start along that path.  Given that, do you recommend concentrating on one tree over another?

How many AA do you have?  It makes a huge difference as to what direction you go.

I'll switch to a 2-hander (have a nice Fabled Spear ready for 90) and work on getting some Haste and DPS mods.  In an actual encounter though I assume you use your attack spells anyway though right?  I mean we don't have much in the way of attack abilities (can think of one) so it seems like this is mostly just using auto-attack and may as well use the spells in the meantime... or am I still missing something?

No, not even close.  Check the spec again.  There are a few things you're getting in that spec that turn you into a melee priest.  The important thing to understand about being a melee priest is that unlike spells, combat arts are nearly impossible to interrupt, and cast in half a second or less in most cases.

When solo'ing, I usually run in my "offensive" stance, and I use the Litany of Combat buff that adds to my Multi-Attack.

So, generally, I kill a solo mob like this:  Pull with Echoes of the Ancients or Deteriorate, this takes away a nice chunk of HP right at the start by debuffing Stamina.  I have a macro for Chilling Strike which contains the ability, the command /pet attack and the HO starter.  I do that next.  This gives me my first auto attack swing.  While that swing is in it's delay, I hit the mob with Plaguish Strike and Glacial Strike.  Wait for Auto attack to hit.  Rabies and Phalanx.  Wait.  Dazing Bash and Circle of the Ancients.  Usually the mob is nearly dead by now.

You will have to learn how to NOT interrupt your auto attack swings with spell casts, it takes a little practice and as your level of Haste or your weapon delay changes, you sometimes have to work out new patterns.

Thanks again for the advice, lookign forward to trying it asap.

You might consider giving the Mystic Primer stickied at the top of this forum a read.  It's a little older, and needs some updating (I'll try to get to it, I swear) but there is still some good information there.

[Kiryalis]

I'd also suggest investing in an AA mirror so you can have a spec for group/raid and one for soloing. 

[Gahnand]

OP needs update:

Crit Chance:Mobs show the amount of crit avoidance they have by targeting them and looking at buffs. Typically you can expect to need 200 -> 225 for the easier stuff, and 250->275 for the harder stuff.

Crit Bonus:When was this ever proposed to be "fixed"?

Melee priest gear:There is a TB/SH like war rune, not to mention that many of the war runes will also proc from spell and combat hits. Substituting a very small amount of non-priest items (mainly just a haste item) and then adorning with mostly crit bonus, dps mod, and multi attack is plenty to dps 60, 80, 120k in this xpac. Really great two handers especially if you couple with the Greater Runes from faction

Focus effects:By putting these on the gear, it frees up room for the new runes/red adorns.

Procs:Procs come from runes and are still very powerful and useful. Using some gear from SF and TSO until you upgrade is still effective.

Heroic AA:Enhance Spirit Companion: To clarify, the 30% chance is 30% of the time the stone-skin procs for the dog.

In regards to some of the replies:

The crit modifier on wards is perfectly fin at .15 as opposed to .3 and it always has been. I'm honestly opposed to pushing this at all, let alone as hard as some of the people ITT.

In general regarding dps, and melee:If you can't kill stuff effectively, look at your gear and AA rig. This idea that "no itemization" for melee priest is a joke. Consolidated stats = you get buffed for melee without need 300 stats on gear not to mention that you aren't having to swap in scout gear for dps. I do 30k solo, and I realize I have much better gear than most, but I can't even begin to imagine where these complaints are coming from. Are you using a two hander? Are you timing your auto attacks? These are basics. DPS does not come from mashing your CAs!

Bandit's melee spec:Not going RoA just for the reuse alone is going to cost you a ton of DPS. Reuse affects your CAs and DPS spells as well. Not to mention that RoA is a huge DPS bonus to your group or raid, so unless all you do is solo, sacrificing group DPS will ultimately affect your dps.I highly recommend not speccing spirit dance especially over immunities. Cure curse is important, and avoiding stuns/stifles makes a huge diff in dps too. With all the reuse we have now, this spell is up once a minute.Even if you only put 1 point in Lunar Spirits this will at least give you an extra tick for Oberon. I recommend maxing for 50% increase in refresh and this also hugely affects dps. When you pull a mob, stampede, start dps and if you or the tank starts dipping: oberon and you have god mode for that duration. This gives you time to unload all of your CAs and then get some wards going. Huge, huge differentiator. The same goes for Torpor which I use every time it's up even on my self in solo situations as this very consistent means for keeping you protected and refreshing dips in hp allows you to apply more dps and completely negates the hit to haste (which if you have a red adorn especially this is practically nothing).Tribal frenzy in shadows is questionably useful at this point. Unless you are regularly grouped with squishies, the likelihood that the extra HP will make or break your encounter is unlikely. In this xpac, positioning is 90% of what it takes to win. If you or your group is in the wrong spot, you're going to die, but if you and your group are in the right spot, the damage done is a joke.Here's an AA Spec that will get you some win DPS:Gahnand DoV AA Spec

Also, with reuse, I find rabies to be a waste if you have our new Heroic endline. You just won't have enough important DPS abilities down to warrant the use.

Lastly about AA mirrors. They are great for testing and trying things, but I strongly suggest you find a hybrid spec that works for you. Having a max heal or dps spec is just going to have you questioning which spec you brought or holding up your raid, group or heck even just you solo every time you go to change.

[Wilin]

I dunno about the lack of melee gear. I suspect that argument is coming from melee priests who do not have access to a fabled 2h nor a full set of red adorned gear where the red adorns offset the lack of blue melee bonuses.

On your spec, I've never had much use for immunities. Are you just macroing it to cast on yourself everytime it's up for the extra immunity? I'm always wearing stun/stifle blocking procs and I'm usually grouped with an inq who has steadfast+epic. And if all that fails, I have the standard pots + bristlebane blessing. I could layer an immunities spam on that too, but it seems like overkill.

[Gahnand]

Immunities + AB is god mode for a lot of solo content. Click immunities, run into a heavy stun encounter, and chain AB for infinite stun free lulz. For raiding, immunity is fantastic for fights with interval stuns. XYZ is a perfect example. Any stun/stifle that might also come with a KB is even more easy to vanquish with AB. While the procs you listed will undoubtedly give you that benefit, a blessing is only up max every 30 minutes, procs can't be relied upon to be up constantly, and in DoV wearing two earrings one for stifle and one for stun is going to hurt your stats. Overall, you have to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze. While Immunity is not going to make or break 99% of pulls, it can add some peace of mind AND for most people, it is going to have a higher value that spirit dance. Depends on your personal preference and raid setup though. Just w/e you do, don't overlook the 5 points in Cure Curse. That's just plain stupidity.

[Wilin]

Ya, not questioning the decision on Spirit Dance. The only time it has seemed remotely valuable was on RT where all the corpses were auto stacked in a neat pile.

I didn't consider the solo possibilities on immunities. I'll swing some points around and try it out though.

I have the new red adorn that prevents stun and stifle on one adorn. But, it has shorter duration than the SF procs. So, I haven't decided how things will look after I get the full set of dov. I'm still planning/playing with the new red adorns.

[Gahnand]

If you aren't specced spirit dance, how are you going to reach mystic endlines without speccing immunities? Don't tell me you dumped a bunch of points into one of the trees w/o taking the endline...

[Wilin]

Gahnand@Unrest wrote:

If you aren't specced spirit dance, how are you going to reach mystic endlines without speccing immunities? Don't tell me you dumped a bunch of points into one of the trees w/o taking the endline...

Yep, since Spirit Dance and Immunities were considered marginally useful, there was no point in getting either one at the time. So, I have a few points in rez just to speed up casting time and the rest in cures just to get the 70 that you need. I'm also only sitting at 290AA atm. After I got the heroic endline, there was no point in grinding them out to fill out a marginally useful endline when another couple weeks of normal play will top them off. In other words, I now have a plan for those last 10AA.

That was the only real difference between our specs.

[Gahnand]

putting points in the left side of the rez line is FAR greater than any of the points in cures (except Cure Curse which trumps everything). As for the endline, you might as well choose one. Even if you're not capped on AA you still need 3 trees worth of points to gain access to the mystic SF tree.

[Banditman]

Gahnand@Unrest wrote:

Crit Bonus:When was this ever proposed to be "fixed"?

It was said in beta that they "wanted to do something about the problem" when we brought it up.  I can't remember which dev said it.

In regards to some of the replies:

The crit modifier on wards is perfectly fin at .15 as opposed to .3 and it always has been. I'm honestly opposed to pushing this at all, let alone as hard as some of the people ITT.

Ok, that's not the crit bonus problem at all.  The problem is that crit bonus is applied at HALF it's value, including our innate bonus.

So, if you take our ST Ward, with no potency and only the 336 from heroic for mod, also turning off the myth buff, I show a value of 3118, non crit.  I have no gear on, no stance, no anything that affects crit bonus aside from the AA in the Shadows tree which adds 10% Potency and Crit Bonus to the Ward.

If the problem was simply a flat .15 off of Crit Bonus, I would expect a Crit Bonus of .15 + .10 or .25.  That is not at all what I get.  That would give me a Ward of 3898.  However, what I get is 3741.

Now, on the other hand, if you use the "half" number, then you would expect a Crit Bonus of .30 innate + .10 from the AA or .40 divided by two.  If you take 3118 x 1.20 you get 3741.  Exactly what shows up in game on the tooltip.

In fact, the AA in the Shadows tree is incredibly misleading at best, broken at worst.  It says that it increases the critical amount of the Ward by 10%, and it actually doesn't.  It increases the Crit Bonus by 10% . . . BEFORE the mechanics kick in and cut it in half.  So in fact, it is only giving 5% to the critical value of the Ward, not the 10% that it says it should give.

Now, when you extend that out to having 100+ Crit Bonus, you're only getting HALF of that value onto the healing spells that do most of your work.  We are effectively being screwed out of proper progression by the stupid mechanics of the game.

[Gahnand]

I will agree that the math on that is different than what I thought, but it wouldn't matter if it was 1/10 the amount (in its current state). Wards are considerably advantageous over hots and reactives, and I have yet to come into any circumstance in any expansion where there just wasn't enough ward to do the trick. On the other hand, I believe that the formula makes sense. If they intended to cut the base crit in half, then I can see how it was intended that all crit mod should be halved. In this case, I agree that some verbiage needs to change. Overall, I think you are too extremist about the issue. You're a leader among mystics, and people will follow your lead. Raising h*ll over something that is most certainly not stopping the game (or proper progression not sure what you meant by that) is unwarranted negativity IMO.

[Banditman]

I'm not sure I'm extreme enough about the issue.

Here's the problem.

At a very basic level, the formula for a Ward value is this:  [(base x potency) + abil mod] x crit bonus.

I know there is a lot more going on, but that serves to illustrate the point.  Crit Bonus is the last multiplier, after everything else has been considered.  For a Ward, this means that every other bonus we get . . . Potency, Ability Mod, whatever, those values are *also* getting only half their potential value.

I agree, right now, today, Mystics (and Defilers) are just fine.  Unfortunately, it's not today I'm worried about.  What will we be seeing in 12 months?  Crit Bonus / Potency of 300+?  I dunno, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Look at the difference you'd see then.

On a base of 1000, with 300 CB / Potency, a Cleric would see a crit of 16,000.  A Shaman would see 10,000.  Again, there's a lot more going on there that needs to be considered, and I certainly don't want to see Mystics (or Defilers) get whacked because they are overpowered.

However, the Ward casters need a sustainable, reasonable growth path.  Right now, they just don't have it.  It's exactly the same problem that Crusaders have right now with their heals not crit'ing.  It's exactly the same problem Summoners had when they introduced pet effects.  When you make an exception to the mechanics, you are forced to constantly juggle that exception until it becomes untenable to maintain, and you have to do some sort of major rebalance to fix it.

Right now, Wards are an exception to the mechanics, and the dialog about how to fix it needs to start now, not after it becomes grossly broken.

[Gahnand]

it doesn't matter what the amount is, it's still a percentage and therefore scales indefinitely. All these problems you are listing aren't really problems. They are just differences in how you think the game should work versus what the devs think, and I believe in the game having at least some challenge. And yes, I do say extremist because you guys literally scream bloody murder and sometimes even insult devs and managers with implications of incompetence or lack of interest in meeting your "needs" (although to me, they just sound like demands).

[Banditman]

Generalizations do not suit.  Saying "you guys" is a rabid generalization that doesn't even begin to address a legitimate concern about a problem that will only grow over time.

It is a long standing flaw with SOE.  They note a problem, but instead of addressing that problem at it's core, they instead make exceptions to the rule.  This brings them nothing but pain in the long run.  Their history of this is long and checkered, and yet they continue to do it.

Oh, look, that was a generalization.  Let me cite some specific examples.

Summoners knew, a long time ago, that pets needed to share stats.  SOE chose instead to work outside of the mechanics of the game, adding pet effects.  It worked for a while, but in the end created more issues than it solved, and was eventually backed out and pets were moved into the greater flow of mechanics within the game.

Consider the old Ward problem, Wards did not take mitigation into account.  Once again, something outside the general flow of mechanics became an issue - a huge one.  No one saw it as a problem, but Mystique and I saw it and went to bat for the changes that brought Wards back into the mainstream of game mechanics.

Consider the current situation with Crusaders.  They felt Crusaders were healing too much.  Well, ok, fine, perhaps they were, perhaps they weren't.  It was a lot more apparent in PvP than it was in PvE, but whatever.  Instead of adjusting the core values, they simply removed crit from them entirely.  Anyone can tell you that isn't going to be a sustainable solution in the long term.

Consider Brawlers.  Bards.  The list goes on and on and on and on.

Mark my words, this is the same thing.  Wards need to benefit from the full value of Crit Bonus.  If that means that the core values need to be adjusted, great, let's get it done.

[Gahnand]

if what you're saying is true, then it appears you have been wrong for several years since this mechanic has been this way since before the internet AND people have been complaining about it just as long.

[Hene]

Gahnand@Unrest wrote:

it doesn't matter what the amount is, it's still a percentage and therefore scales indefinitely. All these problems you are listing aren't really problems. They are just differences in how you think the game should work versus what the devs think, and I believe in the game having at least some challenge. And yes, I do say extremist because you guys literally scream bloody murder and sometimes even insult devs and managers with implications of incompetence or lack of interest in meeting your "needs" (although to me, they just sound like demands).

Btw, the base value on wards was scaled long ago to adjust for the difference in ward efficiency versus other heals.  This scaling affected the base, which all other ward increasing stats in turn are affected by.

So, this base scaling, in turn, affects the percentage of all other modifiers we get (to a degree, and I say this to take into acount abil mod).  But to illustrate this point, a long time ago I posted this:

Hene wrote:

Here is a more clear illustration, using shaman versus druid single target heals (for simplicity I am using the average value of a warden's HOT as its actual value, and ignoring the MIN_CRIT_VALUE=MAX_NON_CRIT_VALUE+1):

With 0% crit chance and 0 ability mod.

A druid's lv 78 master single target HoT heals for 583.5 per tick for up to 6 ticks.  This means, it can heal for a maximum of 3501 hp assuming complete utilization.

A shaman's lv 78 master single target ward can prevent up to 2100 damage.

Because HoTs are less efficient, the druid's heal does 67% more.  This means that HoTs are less efficient and gain an extra 67% in maximum healing power to offset this. 

Now consider two equally geared healers who have 100% crit chance and 0% crit bonus:

A druid's lv 78 master single target HoT heals for 583.5 per tick for up to 6 ticks, multiplied by 1.300 for a crit, this is 758.55 per tick for 6 ticks.  This means, it can heal for a maximum of 4551.3 hp assuming complete utilization.

A shaman's lv 78 master single target ward can prevent up to 2100*1.150 = 2415 damage.

Now, for some reason, a druid heal does 88.5% more.  Okay, so with the introduction of criticals, druids gained a little edge over shamans heal wise, okay, I guess that is fine and dandy, but it would make sense to preserve the previous ratio, or at least introduce a new, consistent one.

Now, with the addition of crit bonus, consider equally geared healers with 100% crit chance and 100% crit bonus:

A druid's lv 78 master single target HoT heals for 583.5 per tick for up to 6 ticks, multiplied by 2.300 for a crit, this is 1342 per tick for 6 ticks.  This means, it can heal for a maximum of 8052 hp assuming complete utilization.

A shaman's lv 78 master single target ward can prevent up to 2100*(1.150+0.500) = 3465 damage.

Now, with 100% crit bonus, a druid heal does 132% more. As you can see, as crit bonus increases,  shamans become less and less effective with respect to druids.  So as their heal ability increases, shamans get practically nothing.

As you can see, with the introduction of crits, the bonus percentage of a druid's heals gets significantly bolstered.  And with crit bonus, it truly blows away wards.

So the base value of our ST ward is significantly lower than for example a warden's ST HoT, making the warden's HoT do 67% more than a shaman's ST ward to account for efficiency.  After crit is added in, with no crit bonus, the warden's HoT does ~89% more, still to account for efficiency.

Finally, with 100% CB, this is "still a percentage and therefore scales indefinitely," (like you said) but the problem is, it does not scale linearly and the 50% of CB is a percentage of the already applied base percentage.... The 100% CB increases the gap even more by making warden ST HoT now do 132% more, and this gap keeps growing as CB climbs

[Gahnand]

My point still stands. We have PLENTY of healing power many times over to do everything we want to in this game. Take the other classes out of the picture, and you have no argument. I'm sorry you don't think it's fair, but seriously, this complaint has no purpose.

[Felshades]

Gahnand@Unrest wrote:

Immunities + AB is god mode for a lot of solo content. Click immunities, run into a heavy stun encounter, and chain AB for infinite stun free lulz. For raiding, immunity is fantastic for fights with interval stuns. XYZ is a perfect example. Any stun/stifle that might also come with a KB is even more easy to vanquish with AB. While the procs you listed will undoubtedly give you that benefit, a blessing is only up max every 30 minutes, procs can't be relied upon to be up constantly, and in DoV wearing two earrings one for stifle and one for stun is going to hurt your stats. Overall, you have to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze. While Immunity is not going to make or break 99% of pulls, it can add some peace of mind AND for most people, it is going to have a higher value that spirit dance. Depends on your personal preference and raid setup though. Just w/e you do, don't overlook the 5 points in Cure Curse. That's just plain stupidity.

"AB"?

Sorry, new around here. >.>