Cleric Wisdom line - I think it is about time for a revamp

[Orthureon]

The title says it all. The Cleric's wisdom line could be changed quite easily. My idea is to change all of the procs and spells that you receive from the line to act as "Undead Bane" and how all of the other bane gear works. For example if attacking Undead you do far more damage, anything else you do about half damage. The endline immunity would have to be changed completely. Whatever change that is implemented would most likely be far superior to the current line that is used by such a small percentage of people... if at all.

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Some ideas I came up with, that I posted later on in this thread. I felt I should just add them here.

If they didn't adhere to just changing all of the procs to bane type procs. They could then possibly add in something like (note: some of these might be way too op lol, they are just ideas):

IDEA 1:

• 1st Ability: Self buff: until cancelled, consumes power while active, 0.5% proc chance per rank (max 5%): On a beneficial spell cast it has a x% chance to heal for x to x and dispel x levels of hostile effects on the targeted group member.
• 2nd Ability: Increases potency by either 0.5%-1% per rank (max 5-10%)
• 3rd Ability: Increases crit bonus by either 0.5%-1% per rank (max 5-10%)
• Endline: Self buff, until cancelled, either 5-10%: Has x% chance to make the Cleric immune to: Mez, Daze, Stun, Knockback and Charm for 5 seconds on any incoming damage, outgoing damage, or successful spell cast.

IDEA 2:

• 1st Ability: Group buff, until cancelled, consumes power while active, 0.5% per rank (max 5%): Decreases all incoming damage by x% while active.
• 2nd Ability: Increases defense by 5-10 per rank (max 50-100). (may need to be 5 but what the heck lol).
• 3rd Ability: Increases physical mitigation and all resists by 50 per point (max 500)
• Endline: Group buff, until cancelled, 5-10% proc chance: On any incoming damage the target has x% chance  to absorb the next two incoming attacks if the damage is less than 25% (50% if fighting undead) of the targets health.

IDEA 3:

• 1st Ability: Single target, 1 second cast, 30 second recast: On a friendly target will heal x-x and place a 1 trigger stoneskin on them. On a hostile target  will do x-x divine damage and stuns the target for 4 seconds.
• 2nd Ability: Would remain nearly the same as Blessed Armament, except lower damage and proc percentage of 50%. 100% chance to proc on undead and the damage would be doubled.
• 3rd Ability: Same as it currently is.
• Endline: Self buff, until cancelled, consumes power while active: Radiates heals every 2 seconds to all group members within 7 meters of the Cleric, sometimes curing hostile effects on group members (5% chance). Heals for x to x. If undead are within 7 meters of the effect they will continuously take divine damage every 2 seconds, with a 10% chance to stun them for 2 seconds.

Again these ideas may be very overpowered. But they are just baseline ideas.

[Helmarf]

I totaly agre with you.

[Mikai]

I just gave up on any hope for the wisdom line. lol....  I'd love to see it turned into something useful, but i'm not going to hold my breath.

[DrkVsr]

What exactely is wrong with the Wis branch? Mah temp chose that as one of her 2 branches and haven't noticed anything wrong with it

[Seiffil]

The abilities are really only good when there's a significant amount of undead around.  While leveling up there might be some areas where that can be useful, by and large the undead restriction makes the entire line wasted AAs when you go into areas with no undead.

As the OP said, making it so that the abilities have even some usefulness against mobs that aren't undead would help.  I'm still not sure that it would necessarily be enough to make people spec for the wisdom line when compared against any of the other 4 lines.

[EQPrime]

DrkVsr wrote:

What exactely is wrong with the Wis branch? Mah temp chose that as one of her 2 branches and haven't noticed anything wrong with it

It's a useless line.  "Yah" templar chose poorly.

[DrkVsr]

Pretty sure it just gave a bonus when fighting undead, and not just a vs Undead attack, as in you do normal damage when fighting living mobs and do additional damage if the mob is undead

[Rhadamanth]

If we are to be so limited in what we can fight with these AA, I don't think they do enough damage.  So, pretty much if they acted similar to divine strike where it does extra damage on undead would be nice.

[Seiffil]

DrkVsr wrote:

Pretty sure it just gave a bonus when fighting undead, and not just a vs Undead attack, as in you do normal damage when fighting living mobs and do additional damage if the mob is undead

In its current form, the first 2 abilities on the wisdom tree only work when fighting undead mobs.  The 3rd ability is the only ability that could actually have an impact since it increases casting skills, unfortunately, even if it was worth getting, that means wasting 8 AA just so you have the ability to purchase those AAs.  The 4th ability protect undead is also just like the first 2 in that it only works against undead mobs.

What you suggested in this last post is what the OP was suggesting could be done, with how they could be reworded to work similarly to the "bane" type procs, where the proc does more damage against undead, but still does something against anything else.  Even if they did change it to work that way, it would probably still not be enough when you consider everything that the other AA lines can actually provide.

[DrkVsr]

Ah was actually thinking of Divine Strike that does additional dmg if the mob is undead

Re-read the branches and ah have no regrets with picking Wis as one of mah templars 2 branches

[EQPrime]

DrkVsr wrote:

Ah was actually thinking of Divine Strike that does additional dmg if the mob is undead

Re-read the branches and ah have no regrets with picking Wis as one of mah templars 2 branches

Perhaps if you hang out in RoV and Nek Castle all day it might come in handy.  Considering that your templar appears to be level 30 from what I can make out from that signature, maybe that's where you're playing.

For those clerics doing end-game content it is useless.  Heck, at low level even if all you do is fight undead you should still probably go mostly str and sta with the 50 points you can spend and throw any extras in turn undead.

[DrkVsr]

Actually, apart from the special events haven't played any of mah characters for ages

[Rick777]

DrkVsr wrote:

Ah was actually thinking of Divine Strike that does additional dmg if the mob is undead

Re-read the branches and ah have no regrets with picking Wis as one of mah templars 2 branches

Just curious why are you talking like Cartman?  The only time I ever used the WIS line was the good old days of grey shard runs in TSO, the undead blue AOE was pretty insane in those undead zones, otherwise the WIS line is completely worthless and I feel bad for the groups you heal if you have points wasted in there.

[DrkVsr]

Cartman was modeled after me, the voice part anyway

Apart from the special events that require mah characters to group/duo to complete ah tend to solo (and when ah do group, ah focus more on keeping them alive)

[Artalis the Elder]

DrkVsr wrote:

Actually, apart from the special events haven't played any of mah characters for ages

Then why are you posting in a thread, arguing with people who DO play their clerics for real?

And of course you don't regret selecting the wisdom line on your cleric that sits and gathers dust or does a random world event super-easy quest once in a blue moon.

Really. I love people who jump into a discussion and cloud it with irrelevant viewpoints. As if it isn't hard enough to be heard on these forums, we get awesome people like you, who barely play the game but who feel the need to derail threads about things that serious players care about.

Bottom line Wisdom line is a little TOO specialized. Having a base effect for all abilities that is ENHANCED against undead is a fine idea. +1 to that.

[LardLord]

It would be nice to get a revamp on this one.  It's the only Cleric line that's obviously out of balance, and adding a legitimate fifth option for us would make AA specs more interesting.

Just removing the undead req on the endline would be probably be overpowered, but giving a limited number of groupwide stoneskin triggers (like the Conj AA? not sure) might be nice.

[Aurorrae]

Last time I checked, most clerics heal first, buff and debuff a close second, and dps a far third, and even then, only if they can without hurting the group/raid.  Why anyone in a non-solo spec (or super uber folks who have tanks that dont need heals)  would spend any aas on a offensive line like that - and a very specialized offensive line to boot - when they could be spending them on heals, buffs or debuffs is beyond me. 

If you are in a solo spec.. at level 30 .. maybe, but even still...

The thing that makes this line so horrible is that WIS is the healer stat... normally one would think going down that line makes sense.  It doesn't make that huge a difference for end game players because I'm pretty much at a point of diminishing returns on WIS.

[Laiina]

Let's face it - pretty much every class has issues like this, with totally worthless AA lines, wasted AA to get the one at the bottom, AA that don't really seem to do anything, etc.

What is needed is a complete revamp (again) but I have my doubts that will happen soon. I would be a lot of work, but I am hoping that for Velious that they at least fix some of big issues.

[Gungo]

It would be cool if these were made into group buffs/utility stuff.  DD divine atk w double damage vs undead, Group proc(w Extra dam vs undead), Spell shield (self only regenerating magical ward/reactive),  self immunity vs all magical damage 3 min recast 20 sec duration or 100% magic damage reduction (think of it as a short term spell based avoid buff)

[Gennyfer]

YES!!! Please make the WIS line much more viable. But...keep the Exorcist title That's the coolest thing about it.

[DrkVsr]

Kiki@Guk wrote:

DrkVsr wrote:

Actually, apart from the special events haven't played any of mah characters for ages

Then why are you posting in a thread, arguing with people who DO play their clerics for real?

And of course you don't regret selecting the wisdom line on your cleric that sits and gathers dust or does a random world event super-easy quest once in a blue moon.

Really. I love people who jump into a discussion and cloud it with irrelevant viewpoints. As if it isn't hard enough to be heard on these forums, we get awesome people like you, who barely play the game but who feel the need to derail threads about things that serious players care about.

Bottom line Wisdom line is a little TOO specialized. Having a base effect for all abilities that is ENHANCED against undead is a fine idea. +1 to that.

Ah'm not the one arguing, ah'm posting mah opinion about it, something ah figured everyone was entitled to (even if it conflicted with yours)

Ah chose the Wisdom line specifically for the undead angle. Unlike a lot of people (not everyone, but a lot) ah took the time when these were first introduced to read all the abilities and decide which lines ah wanted based on mah plans or each character (mah main assassin has 1 line that is different than mah frog assassin because ah play them differently, ah even decided on what lines mah zerk and warden would be going down before ah even created them)

Ah understand that people play this game differently than me and have different goals they are striving for, roles they want to play, do you?

[Darkor]

For trolls like DrkVsr i would love an ignore button.

[Stubbswick]

Laiina wrote:

Let's face it - pretty much every class has issues like this, with totally worthless AA lines, wasted AA to get the one at the bottom, AA that don't really seem to do anything, etc.

What is needed is a complete revamp (again) but I have my doubts that will happen soon. I would be a lot of work, but I am hoping that for Velious that they at least fix some of big issues.

Not necessarily.  I know during SF they revamped the Brawler AA lines, so now all 5 lines are very viable, depending on the situation.  Just recently, they went back and addressed a useless Rogue WIS AA line.

So I don't think it's ok to just go "well, everybody has a sucky AA line so we should just accept that".  But yeah, we probably won't see it until Velious (or later).

[Kunaak]

Honestly, the Wisdom Line should be the clerics DPS line - as is, its only a weakline with OK stuff.

redoing it,so its more versatile, and clear what that line is intended to be, would be a good thing.

[Gungo]

Kunaak wrote:

Honestly, the Wisdom Line should be the clerics DPS line - as is, its only a weakline with OK stuff.

redoing it,so its more versatile, and clear what that line is intended to be, would be a good thing.

I think you have several other dps lines. If anything it should be a defensive line but not restircted to just undead. If anything more magical defensive adjustments.

RANK 1=DD divine atk w double damage vs undead, RANK 2= Group DD divine proc(w Extra dam vs undead),RANK 3= self only regenerating spell ward/reactive),RANK 4= self immunity vs all spell damage 20 sec duration/3 min recast (think of it as a short term spell based avoid buff)or "Divine Light" a short range buff centered on the cleric that reduces all damage to group by 50% 20sec duration /3min recast, graphic would be the avatar of health pillar of light centered on cleric. 5m radius

[Crismorn]

I like all the ideas put forth so far, some seem a little too powerful but all look good

[Orthureon]

Crismorn wrote:

I like all the ideas put forth so far, some seem a little too powerful but all look good

Now we just sit back and hope the developers take notice. This is not a huge deal, but what better time to revamp an AA line than with an expansion. Something a little extra.

If they didn't adhere to just changing all of the procs to bane type procs. They could then possibly add in something like (note: some of these might be way too op lol, they are just ideas):

IDEA 1:

• 1st Ability: Self buff: until cancelled, consumes power while active, 0.5% proc chance per rank (max 5%): On a beneficial spell cast it has a x% chance to heal for x to x and dispel x levels of hostile effects on the targeted group member.
• 2nd Ability: Increases potency by either 0.5%-1% per rank (max 5-10%)
• 3rd Ability: Increases crit bonus by either 0.5%-1% per rank (max 5-10%)
• Endline: Self buff, until cancelled, either 5-10%: Has x% chance to make the Cleric immune to: Mez, Daze, Stun, Knockback and Charm for 5 seconds on any incoming damage, outgoing damage, or successful spell cast.

IDEA 2:

• 1st Ability: Group buff, until cancelled, consumes power while active, 0.5% per rank (max 5%): Decreases all incoming damage by x% while active.
• 2nd Ability: Increases defense by 5-10 per rank (max 50-100). (may need to be 5 but what the heck lol).
• 3rd Ability: Increases physical mitigation and all resists by 50 per point (max 500)
• Endline: Group buff, until cancelled, 5-10% proc chance: On any incoming damage the target has x% chance  to absorb the next two incoming attacks if the damage is less than 25% (50% if fighting undead) of the targets health.

IDEA 3:

• 1st Ability: Single target, 1 second cast, 30 second recast: On a friendly target will heal x-x and place a 1 trigger stoneskin on them. On a hostile target  will do x-x divine damage and stuns the target for 4 seconds.
• 2nd Ability: Would remain nearly the same as Blessed Armament, except lower damage and proc percentage of 50%. 100% chance to proc on undead and the damage would be doubled.
• 3rd Ability: Same as it currently is.
• Endline: Self buff, until cancelled, consumes power while active: Radiates heals every 2 seconds to all group members within 7 meters of the Cleric, sometimes curing hostile effects on group members (5% chance). Heals for x to x. If undead are within 7 meters of the effect they will continuously take divine damage every 2 seconds, with a 10% chance to stun them for 2 seconds.

Again these ideas may be very overpowered. But they are just baseline ideas.

[Rick777]

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

For trolls like DrkVsr i would love an ignore button.

Why is he a troll?  I think he brings some very good points to the discussion.  Seriously, the Wis line may have had some very SMALL utility once upon a time, there were a couple of undead dungeons in TSO for example.  But exploring the dichotomy of level 90 templars, whether they are casual soloers or raiders, versus creepy Cartman who doesn't really play, where in SF do you see any undead?  Basically the entire Wis line is useless for SF, specifically for SF, it's not a difficult concept to understand.

As for weird creepy Cartman, I think it's already been established he doesn't have a toon who is playing in SF, from what I gather his toon is maybe in his 70s?, and doesn't do much more than play special events occasionally and even then "not in ages" he has said.  I think it just annoys Templars who would love to see something done with this AA line when someone not remotely qualified says there is nothing wrong with the line.  Let me repeat this, if creepy Cartman leveled his toon and went to SF what kind of "utility" would he find from the undead line?  Which mobs would he be killing?  How would he be helping his group out?  It's these questions SOE should be considering.

[Rick777]

What they need to do IMO is offer trade offs between DPS and healing, kind of like they do with the smite wrath line and with our stances.  The WIS line should be similar, it should offer significant DPS but at the expense of healing ability, I don't think it would be too overpowering to just convert the existing WIS line to just be versus anything, but balance it out by giving us healing penalties.  Just food for thought.

[DrkVsr]

Ah never said "there is nothing wrong with the line", ah said "ah haven't noticed anything wrong with it" and "ah've never regretted taking that branch"

Adding more functionallity to it (for those who chop and change all the time) would be fine, as long as they keep it's undead basis: allow the attacks (apart from the Turn Undead) to work on all mobs with undead getting extra damage like Divine Strike does

IMO, the AP's define who your character is, what their role is going to be, specialising in a certain area if you will, and it should not be an easy thing to change