General Fighter Suggestions (from a zerker OT perspective)

victer · 01-16-2009, 01:59 PM

Stances:

When I am off tanking I am required to keep my hate high on the mobs list while also helping the raid DPS. For this it is obvious that I will need to be in offensive stance. What worrys me is that with the changes made to Ostance means that it will not be easy to do the DPS that my raid requires of me while also ensureing that I am high on the hate list. I forsee alot of switching back and forth from Ostance to Dstance to get the job done.

Suggestions:

An instant cast to the stances. They currently have a 1 sec cast that I would like to have them made instant.
Stances to overright the other. Currently to go from Ostance to Dstance we are required to turn off the current stance and then turn on the next stance. What im looking for is if I am in Dstance and I click my Ostance, it will automaticlly turn off Dstance and turn on Ostance. This saves me alot of clicking stances on and off.

DStance:

From a berserker perspective this whole idea makes me cringe. Wether you want to admit it or not the zerker class is meant to be the "offensive" tank. A big portion of zerker hate is supposed to be generated with attacks. This is again pointed out with the fact that the zerker Dstance gives 16% Hate Mod (which only generates hate with attacks) and the gaurdian Dstance gets 8% Hate Mod and 8% +taunts. This tells me that gaurds use taunts for agro and zerkers use DPS.

What really bothers me however is that if berserkers are supposed to use Hate Mod which is only usefull for generating hate with attacks then why are my melee attacks being downgraded by a 0.5 modifier? This makes the whole idea of giving zerkers Hate mod less effective. We also still have to deal with negative stats to our slash/crush/pierce which is even more reason for the Hate mod we have to become less effective.

I realize that the designers are trying to make it so that tanks do not do the DPS they currently are while tanking. What confuses me is why would they reduce our dammage and also make it so that hate mod does not effect taunts.

Suggestions:

Hate Mod in Dstance should effects taunts.
Change the 0.5 negetive melee modifier to something more reasonable... 0.25 instead?
Remove the negative +skills.

Ostance:

The taunts turning into detaunts seems to be the biggest issue everyone has from Duoing-Raiding. People are complaining that they are loosing agro while duoing in offensive stance and raiders are complaining that with Ostance will be very hard to get your hate possition up to the top of the list for backup to the MT.

I realize that the devs are trying to make sure that people do not consistently tank in offensive stance. I think they are fine with people doing heroic/solo content in Ostance but want people to stop useing Ostance to tank raids.

Suggestions: (these are only if they decide to remove the detaunts effect)

Change it so that taunts are 1/4 effective. (If a taunt is usually 1000 then Ostance taunt = 250) and ALL possitional taunts turn to 0 possitions.
Increase the dammage taken by the fighter by greater then 5%.
Decrease mitigation of worn items to rival that of cloth (terrible idea dont know what i was thinking)

LygerT · 01-16-2009, 02:35 PM

just throw a few dps classes at the mob while you swap to defensive stance and hit your snaps.

you do have a point that the zerk defensive stance does need some work though. there's too many discrepencies between us and other fighters as we have always had a tough time with hit rates, procs, dps, well everything while in defensive stance to maintain aggro.

i still somewhat disagree with the offensive stance taunting simply being lowered. taunts in offensive stance pre patch were a joke and offtanks still peeled aggro without using taunts at all(even with 0 hate transfers, at least the way you're making it sound), that wouldn't change. a simple fix would be lower the resist rate of cry of the warrior(force target) or it not lasting its full duration even against memwiping mobs. if you can't work back up to the top of the hate list in 8 seconds then you have other issues you need to work out.

if you can't accept that a few dps will die during transitions then you will have to accept lower dps as consolation for managing your hate to be able to pickup a mob quickly and your raid will have to accept that as well. there is a number of ways i can see to adapt to the offensive changes coming up but overall tanks who WILL be tanking will have to get used to doing less DPS as a result.

the negatives of the offensive stance to mitigation, you don't want my opinion on that because i don't think you will like what i have to say. ever really played a wizard? you know they can still have decent avoidance but if you get hit, you pretty much evaporate. besides, we really don't need to be stepping on brawlers big toes more than we already have.

Junaru · 01-16-2009, 02:43 PM

I think the over all raid wide DPS is going to stay close to the same but the MT and OT/ST DPS is going to be lower. Sorry but I think the idea of a DPS/OT is out the window. The good news is fighters in the raid should be able to do more DPS without fear of getting hate which might make up for some of the DPS lost by the OT/ST.

If you snap aggro abilties aren't up then you will need to be in defencive stand or no stance.

Elanjar · 01-16-2009, 02:54 PM

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

just throw a few dps classes at the mob while you swap to defensive stance and hit your snaps.
you do have a point that the zerk defensive stance does need some work though. there's too many discrepencies between us and other fighters as we have always had a tough time with hit rates, procs, dps, well everything while in defensive stance to maintain aggro.
i still somewhat disagree with the offensive stance taunting simply being lowered. taunts in offensive stance pre patch were a joke and offtanks still peeled aggro without using taunts at all(even with 0 hate transfers), that wouldn't change. a simple fix would be lower the resist rate of cry of the warrior(force target) or it not lasting its full duration even against memwiping mobs. if you can't work back up to the top of the hate list in 8 seconds then you have other issues you need to work out.

Sounds like plate tanks need a 3rd stance to me.

Offensive stance- (I agree with Victer although i think armor = cloth would make it overly ineffective) Make taunts worth 1/4 of their amounts, dps stays as is, no positionals, increase the extra damage taken to like 10% or somethin. (thats a lot if you think about it).

Defensive stance - needs work for zerkers but close enough i suppose (taunt crit to berserk? add 25% taunt crit to juggernaut, 10% hate gain to hold rage)

3rd stance (ill call it OT stance) - No dps reduction, no effect on +skills (or -skills), no extra defense/parry or visa versa, all taunts are detaunts.

And the stance cast time needs to be changed to instant I agree. As for the having to cancel then cast I agree its annoying, I just made a seperate macro that casts said stance 2x. So if i hit the defensive one while it offensive it "casts defensive" which cancels the o-stance then casts "defensive" again which pretty much has me instantly in defensive.

LygerT · 01-16-2009, 02:56 PM

i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking, you get no bonuses for no stance but detaunts are much less. basically not allowing you to hold aggro against a high DPS class.

for offensive stance you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react.

victer · 01-16-2009, 03:09 PM

More Zerker Specific Issues:

The 8% added to our CA dammage in OStance is actaully quite terrible for dps purposes because all of the zerker CA's are low damage. Maybe change this to 5%+ Crit Bonus instead?
Bloodbath should be turned from 1.5 sec cast to at the MOST 1 sec. Especially now that it has a taunt component.
Jeering Onslaught (zerker TSO final ability) requires a target when it shouldnt. This is a blue AE that should have a target of "self" much like Gibe and Bloodbath. I know of no other "blue AE" that requires a target.
The proc rate of our "auto-hate" effect on the Dstance needs adjustment. Ours procs on 30% of a incomming melee attacks. Other fighters have thiers proccing on 50% of ANY incomming attack. That is a HUGE difference.

Warrior AA Line Thoughts:

STR 2 could have a crit taunt or a normal taunt effect on it.
STR 4 should have slightly higher gains for hate.
STR Final Ability needs to be looked at since it does nothing right now when you are playing with a healer.

Junaru · 01-16-2009, 03:09 PM

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking.
you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example, but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react.

I'm hoping when they put that stance in they give me an AA so I can wear plate. Sorry for the bitterness but you guys "want" EVERYTHING. Plate tanks already have more then the Brawlers and now you want a thrid stance too? I think at this point it's not even about balance, you guys are just being greedy. You want to DPS and still be an OT. Geez why not give yourself heals and buffs too.

The one thing the 3rd stance does for a Brawler is give them the chance to step into the OT/ST position.

LygerT · 01-16-2009, 03:27 PM

i already have tons of self/group/raid buffs, i'm fine with that.

but seriously, this is in mind more for those who duo with a healer. i personally can live with 2 stances and i should be able to offtank fine with whether i choose to dps or roll in defensive. i will work with whatever they give me but i don't see any problem in working out issues i see in other areas with my class, but i guess that is greedy.

Junaru · 01-16-2009, 03:50 PM

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

i already have tons of self/group/raid buffs, i'm fine with that.
but seriously, this is in mind more for those who duo with a healer. i personally can live with 2 stances and i should be able to offtank fine with whether i choose to dps or roll in defensive. i will work with whatever they give me but i don't see any problem in working out issues i see in other areas with my class, but i guess that is greedy.

I suggested a much better fix for duo and small groups. Have the amount of damage taken and damage reduction mades of the amount of players you are group with. So if you duo then you only lose 0.1 damage in defencive stance and take 0.1 more damage in offencive stance. Taunts can work the same way. Once a group is more then 1/2 full taunts become detaunts. So you and two others means you can use offencive stance. Add another player and you use defencive stance.

RafaelSmith · 01-16-2009, 04:14 PM

Junaru wrote:

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:
i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking.
you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example, but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react.
I'm hoping when they put that stance in they give me an AA so I can wear plate. Sorry for the bitterness but you guys "want" EVERYTHING. Plate tanks already have more then the Brawlers and now you want a thrid stance too? I think at this point it's not even about balance, you guys are just being greedy. You want to DPS and still be an OT. Geez why not give yourself heals and buffs too.
The one thing the 3rd stance does for a Brawler is give them the chance to step into the OT/ST position.

At this point sure....give brawlers plate....what does it matter anymore? I mean with each "fix" to fighter balance they make they make all the fighters more and more the same. The fighters that actually have somethign else they can offer a group besides soaking up DMG come out ahead.

With GU#51 we no longer do our job of holding aggro differently...we just cycle taunts while doing crap DPS.

They might as well just merge all 6 fighters into one class...call it TANK and be done with it.

chainsaw · 01-16-2009, 04:49 PM

Detaunts are not the answere to fighter balance!!!! If the devs are going to make us a scout while in O stance we should get a huge bonus to our dps to get aggro. Remove detaunts and remove the -.5 from D stance. Tanks are going to retire from this game if devs dont listen to what we want! We pay the bills, make the game play how we want it!!!

Junaru · 01-16-2009, 05:35 PM

Cylock@Butcherblock wrote:

Detaunts are not the answere to fighter balance!!!! If the devs are going to make us a scout while in O stance we should get a huge bonus to our dps to get aggro. Remove detaunts and remove the -.5 from D stance. Tanks are going to retire from this game if devs dont listen to what we want! We pay the bills, make the game play how we want it!!!

And then every tank would go back to tanking in o-stance. If you can hold aggro in d-stance what is the big deal? The big deal is people are so hung up on DPS numbers. It's not like SOE isn't giving you the ability to tank.

The ONLY thing you are losing is when you are tanking YOU ARE NOT A DPS CLASS. And guess what? When you are DPSing you GAIN DPS.

victer · 01-16-2009, 07:06 PM

Junaru wrote:

And then every tank would go back to tanking in o-stance. If you can hold aggro in d-stance what is the big deal? The big deal is people are so hung up on DPS numbers. It's not like SOE isn't giving you the ability to tank.
The ONLY thing you are losing is when you are tanking YOU ARE NOT A DPS CLASS. And guess what? When you are DPSing you GAIN DPS.

Truth is they could realease it the way it is and it would work. If I have to tank im in Dstance and if im not tanking im in Ostance... simple. Its alot easier for geared tanks but its still feasable the way it is and i will roll with the punches.

But heres my problem... One post from aerilk really scared me where he said that if tanks did 1 dps and still held hate with reduced damage then they are fullfulling thier roll. Ok i get it and in a sence i agree. The dps of the tank should not matter as long as he tanks. But what i have to say to that is wow that seems so [Removed for Content] fun! /sarcasm off. Also this doesnt completely sit well with me because they seem to be giving zerkers alot of +hate gain and hate gain works off attacks only. So it puts us at a disadvantage when in Dstance since were doing lower attacks.

Third Stance? No thanks i dont think its nessessary. Everyone pretty much has a 3rd sance without any turned on.

Am I gaining dps in my new Ostance? Yep +8% to my CA's. But ummm zerkers have one of the lowest damage tables of all the melee classes. Even gaurds trump us.

Oh and btw i dont think im "asking for everything"... everything that i suggested in the OP was keeping everyone in mind and was suggesting changes for everyone. Unless it was something zerker specific. And i dont think Ive asked for anything game breaking.

Bremer · 01-16-2009, 07:40 PM

I think you forgot that people play solo in off stance. With your proposed changes you could no longer do that. But I like the idea to replace the CA damage bonus with + max crit. What really bothers me more is the def stance and the skill penalty. Beserkers dealt with the skill penalty by simply tanking in off stance. The hit rate in def stance will take a severe drop versus orange mobs. So we'll generate less hate due to less dps, proc less Beserk and so have less time Adrenaline working. If +hate no longer affects taunt the def stance Beserk proc should not only proc +hate, but also +taunt amount. And something should be done with the melee hit rate. Replace the melee skill bonus from the 2 piece set bonus with striketrhough or a % based hit chance like the Warden buff gets one or add it directly to the def stance.

victer · 01-16-2009, 08:41 PM

i crossed out the whole cloth thingy cause it was pretty dumb lol. i meant for it to be added by itself if they gave us back taunts in o stance but even that is too much.

Kordran · 01-16-2009, 08:59 PM

Victer@Oasis wrote:

But heres my problem... One post from aerilk really scared me where he said that if tanks did 1 dps and still held hate with reduced damage then they are fullfulling thier roll. Ok i get it and in a sence i agree. The dps of the tank should not matter as long as he tanks. But what i have to say to that is wow that seems so [Removed for Content] fun! /sarcasm off.

I think that's really the core of the issue that a lot of fighters are having. They want to lead and protect their groups, but they also have fun smacking stuff around and enjoy seeing those big hits as a measurable part of their performance. For many, making it all about taunts and threat-per-second will turn tanking into more of a "job" and less fun. Conceptually, a lot people who play fighters think of themselves in the context of the class as being the valiant warrior or the crazed, death-dealing juggernaut... not as a punching bag. And regardless of the specific combat mechanics changed, that conceptual change is going to drive away a fair number of players who want to be something more than a meatshield.

Edit: I wrote this in another post, but I think it bears repeating here. There's anecdotal evidence that the number of good, solid fighters available and willing to tank instances (outside of their own guild) is fairly low. I regularly see pickup groups begging for tanks. By making changes that either cause those players to want to switch to another class, or leave the game entirely, has a ripple effect on everyone. Everyone in the game is affected by these changes, not just fighters. And because 90% of the content in TSO is group oriented, if players can't find reliable tanks, and therefore can't get into good groups that can actually complete content, they're going to stop playing. Any kind of exodus of tanks from this game would have very far reaching, and very negative, implications.

LygerT · 01-16-2009, 11:11 PM

i've yet to see sony do anything with a buff or stance or skill check that sees how many people are in a group or how many mobs are attacking you, i doubt you will see it in the near future either.

i really have to disagree with the whole tank and DPS argument. so long as a group is killing at a decent rate i think tanks will still enjoy parsing their aggro as well as their dps. so long as i have something to measure i am going to keep pushing myself to increase the figures i am pushing out.

ever wonder how much hate exactly you are putting out on some of those AE fights as a zerker? you will soon find out..

Jurmoon · 01-17-2009, 10:32 AM

I've read all the notes and comments, I've tested the changes, and I sincerely believe this change is bad for the game. I also don't think anything is going to stop it from happening.

Offstance is now essentially useless. If you are fortunate enough to be invited along to a raid or group as a dps fighter, then great, but that isn't going to be the case for most people.

Tanking in no stance at all is certainly an option, but its going to be at the cost of a lot of stat boosts previously enjoyed in either off or def stance, and the loss of two important buffs. Overall this is probably the way to go, since its better than the alternatives. Particulary if you are in a small group or duo.

Defensive Stance is crippling to dps, and will make it hard for groups to defeat a lot of TSO encounters that require heavy dps. If the tank isn't able to contribute to killing the mob, that missing DPS has to come from somewhere, and i think a lot of lesser geared folks are going to find themselves no longer welcome in groups. It also is less effective at generating hate than tanking in offstance is now.

I don't know what to do at this point. After LU 13, I left the game for two years. Maybe its time to go again. SMILEY

Jrral · 01-17-2009, 03:31 PM

Kordran wrote:

I think that's really the core of the issue that a lot of fighters are having. They want to lead and protect their groups, but they also have fun smacking stuff around and enjoy seeing those big hits as a measurable part of their performance. For many, making it all about taunts and threat-per-second will turn tanking into more of a "job" and less fun.

Actually I don't have a lot of problem with the tank's focus being on taunts and hate-per-second. At the top end that really should be the tank's focus by the classical definition of "tank". I've always thought of my job as main tank in a full group as being 1) stay alive and 2) keep the mobs' attention on me (I put staying alive first because dead tanks don't hold aggro at all). My problem is that "main tank in a full group" isn't the only type of tanking there is. Duos are obvious, with only two characters you don't have enough people to cleaning divide responsibilities into the traditional tank, healer and damage. At least one of the characters will have to take on 2 roles. Even in trios, a lot of the time you're trioing specifically because the classes you have don't lend themselves to the holy tank/healer/damage triumvirate. And you've got roles like off-tank that're defined by their alternating between two of the primary roles during a fight.

I don't mind being told I need to concentrate more on my job when I'm main tank in a full group. I expect to have to do that. But these changes also seem to be saying "There's no tanking except as main tank in a full group.". And that makes me go "Huh?" because there's so much content in this game that isn't aimed at full groups.

Elanjar · 01-17-2009, 05:03 PM

Junaru wrote:

Cylock@Butcherblock wrote:
Detaunts are not the answere to fighter balance!!!! If the devs are going to make us a scout while in O stance we should get a huge bonus to our dps to get aggro. Remove detaunts and remove the -.5 from D stance. Tanks are going to retire from this game if devs dont listen to what we want! We pay the bills, make the game play how we want it!!!
And then every tank would go back to tanking in o-stance. If you can hold aggro in d-stance what is the big deal? The big deal is people are so hung up on DPS numbers. It's not like SOE isn't giving you the ability to tank.
The ONLY thing you are losing is when you are tanking YOU ARE NOT A DPS CLASS. And guess what? When you are DPSing you GAIN DPS.

I think everyone is confused about why we tank in offensive. I'm sure most of us would love to be in defensive for yellow+ mobs but we tank in offensive so we can hit the mob to generate hate. I'm sure some zerkers have gotten attached to their parses (can anyone honestly tell me they dont like appearing on the parse?), but the majority of us stand in offensive to DO OUR JOB. The new hate changes will still require some hate from damage and we still wont be able to hit the mobs since they havent fixed the -skills in defensive. I think thats the biggest issue.

The seperate issue that I have, is they are removing the variety of tanking styles. I don't want to see all the classes merged, I rolled a zerker cause I wanted to tank like a zerker did. I feel like I'm being turned into a guard.

Elanjar · 01-17-2009, 05:07 PM

Kordran wrote:

Victer@Oasis wrote:
But heres my problem... One post from aerilk really scared me where he said that if tanks did 1 dps and still held hate with reduced damage then they are fullfulling thier roll. Ok i get it and in a sence i agree. The dps of the tank should not matter as long as he tanks. But what i have to say to that is wow that seems so [Removed for Content] fun! /sarcasm off.
I think that's really the core of the issue that a lot of fighters are having. They want to lead and protect their groups, but they also have fun smacking stuff around and enjoy seeing those big hits as a measurable part of their performance. For many, making it all about taunts and threat-per-second will turn tanking into more of a "job" and less fun. Conceptually, a lot people who play fighters think of themselves in the context of the class as being the valiant warrior or the crazed, death-dealing juggernaut... not as a punching bag. And regardless of the specific combat mechanics changed, that conceptual change is going to drive away a fair number of players who want to be something more than a meatshield.
Edit: I wrote this in another post, but I think it bears repeating here. There's anecdotal evidence that the number of good, solid fighters available and willing to tank instances (outside of their own guild) is fairly low. I regularly see pickup groups begging for tanks. By making changes that either cause those players to want to switch to another class, or leave the game entirely, has a ripple effect on everyone. Everyone in the game is affected by these changes, not just fighters. And because 90% of the content in TSO is group oriented, if players can't find reliable tanks, and therefore can't get into good groups that can actually complete content, they're going to stop playing. Any kind of exodus of tanks from this game would have very far reaching, and very negative, implications.

QFE

PS. death dealing juggernaut. hahaha i love it

Terron · 01-19-2009, 08:25 AM

Victer@Oasis wrote:

STR Final Ability needs to be looked at since it does nothing right now when you are playing with a healer.

But it is great when soloing with a guard.

Having one end line ability specifically for soloing seems good to me.

Elanjar · 01-20-2009, 04:50 PM

So although I still hate pretty much everything about these changes I've given up on them being reversed. The dev's seem very stubborn about forcing people to tank a certain way, so in light of my reisgnation to this fate I'd like to see some improvements to my dps in offensive stance, as well as a little more group utility to make zerkers wanted as dps.

I'd like to see flurry added to our berserk procs.

Offensive stance: Add 5% flurry to berserk proc, so when berserk we have just a 5% chance to flurry. we had hate gain added to our defensive proc, why not have some sort of new dps thing added to our offensive proc. I think flurry makes perfect sense since we are "berserk"

Rouse: Add 3% chance flurry, (possibly make it if class is not berserker as to not give us to much chance to flurry since it is a powerful mechanic) Also for the rangers sake I'd like to see it give ranged flurry but i doubt they will since rangers have been askin for that since flurry came out.

Lethe5683 · 01-20-2009, 08:05 PM

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking, you get no bonuses for no stance but detaunts are much less. basically not allowing you to hold aggro against a high DPS class.
for offensive stance you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react.

Ill trade you my balanced stance for your ability to use shields.

LygerT · 01-20-2009, 10:03 PM

Lethe5683 wrote:

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:
i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking, you get no bonuses for no stance but detaunts are much less. basically not allowing you to hold aggro against a high DPS class.
for offensive stance you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react.
Ill trade you my balanced stance for your ability to use shields.

stance for stance, sure. if you want to tank full time, the create character tab is over there ->.

01-16-2009, 01:59 PM	#1
victer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 287	Stances: When I am off tanking I am required to keep my hate high on the mobs list while also helping the raid DPS. For this it is obvious that I will need to be in offensive stance. What worrys me is that with the changes made to Ostance means that it will not be easy to do the DPS that my raid requires of me while also ensureing that I am high on the hate list. I forsee alot of switching back and forth from Ostance to Dstance to get the job done. Suggestions: An instant cast to the stances. They currently have a 1 sec cast that I would like to have them made instant. Stances to overright the other. Currently to go from Ostance to Dstance we are required to turn off the current stance and then turn on the next stance. What im looking for is if I am in Dstance and I click my Ostance, it will automaticlly turn off Dstance and turn on Ostance. This saves me alot of clicking stances on and off. DStance: From a berserker perspective this whole idea makes me cringe. Wether you want to admit it or not the zerker class is meant to be the "offensive" tank. A big portion of zerker hate is supposed to be generated with attacks. This is again pointed out with the fact that the zerker Dstance gives 16% Hate Mod (which only generates hate with attacks) and the gaurdian Dstance gets 8% Hate Mod and 8% +taunts. This tells me that gaurds use taunts for agro and zerkers use DPS. What really bothers me however is that if berserkers are supposed to use Hate Mod which is only usefull for generating hate with attacks then why are my melee attacks being downgraded by a 0.5 modifier? This makes the whole idea of giving zerkers Hate mod less effective. We also still have to deal with negative stats to our slash/crush/pierce which is even more reason for the Hate mod we have to become less effective. I realize that the designers are trying to make it so that tanks do not do the DPS they currently are while tanking. What confuses me is why would they reduce our dammage and also make it so that hate mod does not effect taunts. Suggestions: Hate Mod in Dstance should effects taunts. Change the 0.5 negetive melee modifier to something more reasonable... 0.25 instead? Remove the negative +skills. Ostance: The taunts turning into detaunts seems to be the biggest issue everyone has from Duoing-Raiding. People are complaining that they are loosing agro while duoing in offensive stance and raiders are complaining that with Ostance will be very hard to get your hate possition up to the top of the list for backup to the MT. I realize that the devs are trying to make sure that people do not consistently tank in offensive stance. I think they are fine with people doing heroic/solo content in Ostance but want people to stop useing Ostance to tank raids. Suggestions: (these are only if they decide to remove the detaunts effect) Change it so that taunts are 1/4 effective. (If a taunt is usually 1000 then Ostance taunt = 250) and ALL possitional taunts turn to 0 possitions. Increase the dammage taken by the fighter by greater then 5%. Decrease mitigation of worn items to rival that of cloth (terrible idea dont know what i was thinking)

01-16-2009, 02:43 PM	#3
Junaru Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,471	I think the over all raid wide DPS is going to stay close to the same but the MT and OT/ST DPS is going to be lower. Sorry but I think the idea of a DPS/OT is out the window. The good news is fighters in the raid should be able to do more DPS without fear of getting hate which might make up for some of the DPS lost by the OT/ST. If you snap aggro abilties aren't up then you will need to be in defencive stand or no stance. __________________

01-16-2009, 02:54 PM	#4
Elanjar Server: Nagafen Guild: Gaeas Vigilance Rank: Avatar Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 600	Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: just throw a few dps classes at the mob while you swap to defensive stance and hit your snaps. you do have a point that the zerk defensive stance does need some work though. there's too many discrepencies between us and other fighters as we have always had a tough time with hit rates, procs, dps, well everything while in defensive stance to maintain aggro. i still somewhat disagree with the offensive stance taunting simply being lowered. taunts in offensive stance pre patch were a joke and offtanks still peeled aggro without using taunts at all(even with 0 hate transfers), that wouldn't change. a simple fix would be lower the resist rate of cry of the warrior(force target) or it not lasting its full duration even against memwiping mobs. if you can't work back up to the top of the hate list in 8 seconds then you have other issues you need to work out. Sounds like plate tanks need a 3rd stance to me. Offensive stance- (I agree with Victer although i think armor = cloth would make it overly ineffective) Make taunts worth 1/4 of their amounts, dps stays as is, no positionals, increase the extra damage taken to like 10% or somethin. (thats a lot if you think about it). Defensive stance - needs work for zerkers but close enough i suppose (taunt crit to berserk? add 25% taunt crit to juggernaut, 10% hate gain to hold rage) 3rd stance (ill call it OT stance) - No dps reduction, no effect on +skills (or -skills), no extra defense/parry or visa versa, all taunts are detaunts. And the stance cast time needs to be changed to instant I agree. As for the having to cancel then cast I agree its annoying, I just made a seperate macro that casts said stance 2x. So if i hit the defensive one while it offensive it "casts defensive" which cancels the o-stance then casts "defensive" again which pretty much has me instantly in defensive.

01-16-2009, 03:09 PM	#6
victer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 287	More Zerker Specific Issues: The 8% added to our CA dammage in OStance is actaully quite terrible for dps purposes because all of the zerker CA's are low damage. Maybe change this to 5%+ Crit Bonus instead? Bloodbath should be turned from 1.5 sec cast to at the MOST 1 sec. Especially now that it has a taunt component. Jeering Onslaught (zerker TSO final ability) requires a target when it shouldnt. This is a blue AE that should have a target of "self" much like Gibe and Bloodbath. I know of no other "blue AE" that requires a target. The proc rate of our "auto-hate" effect on the Dstance needs adjustment. Ours procs on 30% of a incomming melee attacks. Other fighters have thiers proccing on 50% of ANY incomming attack. That is a HUGE difference. Warrior AA Line Thoughts: STR 2 could have a crit taunt or a normal taunt effect on it. STR 4 should have slightly higher gains for hate. STR Final Ability needs to be looked at since it does nothing right now when you are playing with a healer.

01-16-2009, 03:09 PM	#7
Junaru Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,471	Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking. you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example, but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react. I'm hoping when they put that stance in they give me an AA so I can wear plate. Sorry for the bitterness but you guys "want" EVERYTHING. Plate tanks already have more then the Brawlers and now you want a thrid stance too? I think at this point it's not even about balance, you guys are just being greedy. You want to DPS and still be an OT. Geez why not give yourself heals and buffs too. The one thing the 3rd stance does for a Brawler is give them the chance to step into the OT/ST position. __________________

01-16-2009, 02:35 PM	#2
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	just throw a few dps classes at the mob while you swap to defensive stance and hit your snaps. you do have a point that the zerk defensive stance does need some work though. there's too many discrepencies between us and other fighters as we have always had a tough time with hit rates, procs, dps, well everything while in defensive stance to maintain aggro. i still somewhat disagree with the offensive stance taunting simply being lowered. taunts in offensive stance pre patch were a joke and offtanks still peeled aggro without using taunts at all(even with 0 hate transfers, at least the way you're making it sound), that wouldn't change. a simple fix would be lower the resist rate of cry of the warrior(force target) or it not lasting its full duration even against memwiping mobs. if you can't work back up to the top of the hate list in 8 seconds then you have other issues you need to work out. if you can't accept that a few dps will die during transitions then you will have to accept lower dps as consolation for managing your hate to be able to pickup a mob quickly and your raid will have to accept that as well. there is a number of ways i can see to adapt to the offensive changes coming up but overall tanks who WILL be tanking will have to get used to doing less DPS as a result. the negatives of the offensive stance to mitigation, you don't want my opinion on that because i don't think you will like what i have to say. ever really played a wizard? you know they can still have decent avoidance but if you get hit, you pretty much evaporate. besides, we really don't need to be stepping on brawlers big toes more than we already have.

01-16-2009, 02:56 PM	#5
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking, you get no bonuses for no stance but detaunts are much less. basically not allowing you to hold aggro against a high DPS class. for offensive stance you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react.

01-16-2009, 03:27 PM	#8
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	i already have tons of self/group/raid buffs, i'm fine with that. but seriously, this is in mind more for those who duo with a healer. i personally can live with 2 stances and i should be able to offtank fine with whether i choose to dps or roll in defensive. i will work with whatever they give me but i don't see any problem in working out issues i see in other areas with my class, but i guess that is greedy.

01-16-2009, 03:50 PM	#9
Junaru Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,471	Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: i already have tons of self/group/raid buffs, i'm fine with that. but seriously, this is in mind more for those who duo with a healer. i personally can live with 2 stances and i should be able to offtank fine with whether i choose to dps or roll in defensive. i will work with whatever they give me but i don't see any problem in working out issues i see in other areas with my class, but i guess that is greedy. I suggested a much better fix for duo and small groups. Have the amount of damage taken and damage reduction mades of the amount of players you are group with. So if you duo then you only lose 0.1 damage in defencive stance and take 0.1 more damage in offencive stance. Taunts can work the same way. Once a group is more then 1/2 full taunts become detaunts. So you and two others means you can use offencive stance. Add another player and you use defencive stance. __________________

01-16-2009, 04:14 PM	#10
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Junaru wrote: Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking. you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example, but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react. I'm hoping when they put that stance in they give me an AA so I can wear plate. Sorry for the bitterness but you guys "want" EVERYTHING. Plate tanks already have more then the Brawlers and now you want a thrid stance too? I think at this point it's not even about balance, you guys are just being greedy. You want to DPS and still be an OT. Geez why not give yourself heals and buffs too. The one thing the 3rd stance does for a Brawler is give them the chance to step into the OT/ST position. At this point sure....give brawlers plate....what does it matter anymore? I mean with each "fix" to fighter balance they make they make all the fighters more and more the same. The fighters that actually have somethign else they can offer a group besides soaking up DMG come out ahead. With GU#51 we no longer do our job of holding aggro differently...we just cycle taunts while doing crap DPS. They might as well just merge all 6 fighters into one class...call it TANK and be done with it. __________________

01-16-2009, 04:49 PM	#11
chainsaw Lord Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 41	Detaunts are not the answere to fighter balance!!!! If the devs are going to make us a scout while in O stance we should get a huge bonus to our dps to get aggro. Remove detaunts and remove the -.5 from D stance. Tanks are going to retire from this game if devs dont listen to what we want! We pay the bills, make the game play how we want it!!!

01-16-2009, 05:35 PM	#12
Junaru Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,471	Cylock@Butcherblock wrote: Detaunts are not the answere to fighter balance!!!! If the devs are going to make us a scout while in O stance we should get a huge bonus to our dps to get aggro. Remove detaunts and remove the -.5 from D stance. Tanks are going to retire from this game if devs dont listen to what we want! We pay the bills, make the game play how we want it!!! And then every tank would go back to tanking in o-stance. If you can hold aggro in d-stance what is the big deal? The big deal is people are so hung up on DPS numbers. It's not like SOE isn't giving you the ability to tank. The ONLY thing you are losing is when you are tanking YOU ARE NOT A DPS CLASS. And guess what? When you are DPSing you GAIN DPS. __________________

01-16-2009, 07:06 PM	#13
victer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 287	Junaru wrote: And then every tank would go back to tanking in o-stance. If you can hold aggro in d-stance what is the big deal? The big deal is people are so hung up on DPS numbers. It's not like SOE isn't giving you the ability to tank. The ONLY thing you are losing is when you are tanking YOU ARE NOT A DPS CLASS. And guess what? When you are DPSing you GAIN DPS. Truth is they could realease it the way it is and it would work. If I have to tank im in Dstance and if im not tanking im in Ostance... simple. Its alot easier for geared tanks but its still feasable the way it is and i will roll with the punches. But heres my problem... One post from aerilk really scared me where he said that if tanks did 1 dps and still held hate with reduced damage then they are fullfulling thier roll. Ok i get it and in a sence i agree. The dps of the tank should not matter as long as he tanks. But what i have to say to that is wow that seems so [Removed for Content] fun! /sarcasm off. Also this doesnt completely sit well with me because they seem to be giving zerkers alot of +hate gain and hate gain works off attacks only. So it puts us at a disadvantage when in Dstance since were doing lower attacks. Third Stance? No thanks i dont think its nessessary. Everyone pretty much has a 3rd sance without any turned on. Am I gaining dps in my new Ostance? Yep +8% to my CA's. But ummm zerkers have one of the lowest damage tables of all the melee classes. Even gaurds trump us. Oh and btw i dont think im "asking for everything"... everything that i suggested in the OP was keeping everyone in mind and was suggesting changes for everyone. Unless it was something zerker specific. And i dont think Ive asked for anything game breaking.

01-16-2009, 07:40 PM	#14
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	I think you forgot that people play solo in off stance. With your proposed changes you could no longer do that. But I like the idea to replace the CA damage bonus with + max crit. What really bothers me more is the def stance and the skill penalty. Beserkers dealt with the skill penalty by simply tanking in off stance. The hit rate in def stance will take a severe drop versus orange mobs. So we'll generate less hate due to less dps, proc less Beserk and so have less time Adrenaline working. If +hate no longer affects taunt the def stance Beserk proc should not only proc +hate, but also +taunt amount. And something should be done with the melee hit rate. Replace the melee skill bonus from the 2 piece set bonus with striketrhough or a % based hit chance like the Warden buff gets one or add it directly to the def stance.

01-16-2009, 08:41 PM	#15
victer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 287	i crossed out the whole cloth thingy cause it was pretty dumb lol. i meant for it to be added by itself if they gave us back taunts in o stance but even that is too much.

01-16-2009, 08:59 PM	#16
Kordran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,484	Victer@Oasis wrote: But heres my problem... One post from aerilk really scared me where he said that if tanks did 1 dps and still held hate with reduced damage then they are fullfulling thier roll. Ok i get it and in a sence i agree. The dps of the tank should not matter as long as he tanks. But what i have to say to that is wow that seems so [Removed for Content] fun! /sarcasm off. I think that's really the core of the issue that a lot of fighters are having. They want to lead and protect their groups, but they also have fun smacking stuff around and enjoy seeing those big hits as a measurable part of their performance. For many, making it all about taunts and threat-per-second will turn tanking into more of a "job" and less fun. Conceptually, a lot people who play fighters think of themselves in the context of the class as being the valiant warrior or the crazed, death-dealing juggernaut... not as a punching bag. And regardless of the specific combat mechanics changed, that conceptual change is going to drive away a fair number of players who want to be something more than a meatshield. Edit: I wrote this in another post, but I think it bears repeating here. There's anecdotal evidence that the number of good, solid fighters available and willing to tank instances (outside of their own guild) is fairly low. I regularly see pickup groups begging for tanks. By making changes that either cause those players to want to switch to another class, or leave the game entirely, has a ripple effect on everyone. Everyone in the game is affected by these changes, not just fighters. And because 90% of the content in TSO is group oriented, if players can't find reliable tanks, and therefore can't get into good groups that can actually complete content, they're going to stop playing. Any kind of exodus of tanks from this game would have very far reaching, and very negative, implications. __________________

01-16-2009, 11:11 PM	#17
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	i've yet to see sony do anything with a buff or stance or skill check that sees how many people are in a group or how many mobs are attacking you, i doubt you will see it in the near future either. i really have to disagree with the whole tank and DPS argument. so long as a group is killing at a decent rate i think tanks will still enjoy parsing their aggro as well as their dps. so long as i have something to measure i am going to keep pushing myself to increase the figures i am pushing out. ever wonder how much hate exactly you are putting out on some of those AE fights as a zerker? you will soon find out..

01-17-2009, 10:32 AM	#18
Jurmoon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 66	I've read all the notes and comments, I've tested the changes, and I sincerely believe this change is bad for the game. I also don't think anything is going to stop it from happening. Offstance is now essentially useless. If you are fortunate enough to be invited along to a raid or group as a dps fighter, then great, but that isn't going to be the case for most people. Tanking in no stance at all is certainly an option, but its going to be at the cost of a lot of stat boosts previously enjoyed in either off or def stance, and the loss of two important buffs. Overall this is probably the way to go, since its better than the alternatives. Particulary if you are in a small group or duo. Defensive Stance is crippling to dps, and will make it hard for groups to defeat a lot of TSO encounters that require heavy dps. If the tank isn't able to contribute to killing the mob, that missing DPS has to come from somewhere, and i think a lot of lesser geared folks are going to find themselves no longer welcome in groups. It also is less effective at generating hate than tanking in offstance is now. I don't know what to do at this point. After LU 13, I left the game for two years. Maybe its time to go again.

01-17-2009, 03:31 PM	#19
Jrral Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,610	Kordran wrote: I think that's really the core of the issue that a lot of fighters are having. They want to lead and protect their groups, but they also have fun smacking stuff around and enjoy seeing those big hits as a measurable part of their performance. For many, making it all about taunts and threat-per-second will turn tanking into more of a "job" and less fun. Actually I don't have a lot of problem with the tank's focus being on taunts and hate-per-second. At the top end that really should be the tank's focus by the classical definition of "tank". I've always thought of my job as main tank in a full group as being 1) stay alive and 2) keep the mobs' attention on me (I put staying alive first because dead tanks don't hold aggro at all). My problem is that "main tank in a full group" isn't the only type of tanking there is. Duos are obvious, with only two characters you don't have enough people to cleaning divide responsibilities into the traditional tank, healer and damage. At least one of the characters will have to take on 2 roles. Even in trios, a lot of the time you're trioing specifically because the classes you have don't lend themselves to the holy tank/healer/damage triumvirate. And you've got roles like off-tank that're defined by their alternating between two of the primary roles during a fight. I don't mind being told I need to concentrate more on my job when I'm main tank in a full group. I expect to have to do that. But these changes also seem to be saying "There's no tanking except as main tank in a full group.". And that makes me go "Huh?" because there's so much content in this game that isn't aimed at full groups.

01-17-2009, 05:03 PM	#20
Elanjar Server: Nagafen Guild: Gaeas Vigilance Rank: Avatar Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 600	Junaru wrote: Cylock@Butcherblock wrote: Detaunts are not the answere to fighter balance!!!! If the devs are going to make us a scout while in O stance we should get a huge bonus to our dps to get aggro. Remove detaunts and remove the -.5 from D stance. Tanks are going to retire from this game if devs dont listen to what we want! We pay the bills, make the game play how we want it!!! And then every tank would go back to tanking in o-stance. If you can hold aggro in d-stance what is the big deal? The big deal is people are so hung up on DPS numbers. It's not like SOE isn't giving you the ability to tank. The ONLY thing you are losing is when you are tanking YOU ARE NOT A DPS CLASS. And guess what? When you are DPSing you GAIN DPS. I think everyone is confused about why we tank in offensive. I'm sure most of us would love to be in defensive for yellow+ mobs but we tank in offensive so we can hit the mob to generate hate. I'm sure some zerkers have gotten attached to their parses (can anyone honestly tell me they dont like appearing on the parse?), but the majority of us stand in offensive to DO OUR JOB. The new hate changes will still require some hate from damage and we still wont be able to hit the mobs since they havent fixed the -skills in defensive. I think thats the biggest issue. The seperate issue that I have, is they are removing the variety of tanking styles. I don't want to see all the classes merged, I rolled a zerker cause I wanted to tank like a zerker did. I feel like I'm being turned into a guard.

01-17-2009, 05:07 PM	#21
Elanjar Server: Nagafen Guild: Gaeas Vigilance Rank: Avatar Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 600	Kordran wrote: Victer@Oasis wrote: But heres my problem... One post from aerilk really scared me where he said that if tanks did 1 dps and still held hate with reduced damage then they are fullfulling thier roll. Ok i get it and in a sence i agree. The dps of the tank should not matter as long as he tanks. But what i have to say to that is wow that seems so [Removed for Content] fun! /sarcasm off. I think that's really the core of the issue that a lot of fighters are having. They want to lead and protect their groups, but they also have fun smacking stuff around and enjoy seeing those big hits as a measurable part of their performance. For many, making it all about taunts and threat-per-second will turn tanking into more of a "job" and less fun. Conceptually, a lot people who play fighters think of themselves in the context of the class as being the valiant warrior or the crazed, death-dealing juggernaut... not as a punching bag. And regardless of the specific combat mechanics changed, that conceptual change is going to drive away a fair number of players who want to be something more than a meatshield. Edit: I wrote this in another post, but I think it bears repeating here. There's anecdotal evidence that the number of good, solid fighters available and willing to tank instances (outside of their own guild) is fairly low. I regularly see pickup groups begging for tanks. By making changes that either cause those players to want to switch to another class, or leave the game entirely, has a ripple effect on everyone. Everyone in the game is affected by these changes, not just fighters. And because 90% of the content in TSO is group oriented, if players can't find reliable tanks, and therefore can't get into good groups that can actually complete content, they're going to stop playing. Any kind of exodus of tanks from this game would have very far reaching, and very negative, implications. QFE PS. death dealing juggernaut. hahaha i love it

01-19-2009, 08:25 AM	#22
Terron Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, England Posts: 2,309	Victer@Oasis wrote: STR Final Ability needs to be looked at since it does nothing right now when you are playing with a healer. But it is great when soloing with a guard. Having one end line ability specifically for soloing seems good to me. __________________

01-20-2009, 04:50 PM	#23
Elanjar Server: Nagafen Guild: Gaeas Vigilance Rank: Avatar Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 600	So although I still hate pretty much everything about these changes I've given up on them being reversed. The dev's seem very stubborn about forcing people to tank a certain way, so in light of my reisgnation to this fate I'd like to see some improvements to my dps in offensive stance, as well as a little more group utility to make zerkers wanted as dps. I'd like to see flurry added to our berserk procs. Offensive stance: Add 5% flurry to berserk proc, so when berserk we have just a 5% chance to flurry. we had hate gain added to our defensive proc, why not have some sort of new dps thing added to our offensive proc. I think flurry makes perfect sense since we are "berserk" Rouse: Add 3% chance flurry, (possibly make it if class is not berserker as to not give us to much chance to flurry since it is a powerful mechanic) Also for the rangers sake I'd like to see it give ranged flurry but i doubt they will since rangers have been askin for that since flurry came out.

01-20-2009, 08:05 PM	#24
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking, you get no bonuses for no stance but detaunts are much less. basically not allowing you to hold aggro against a high DPS class. for offensive stance you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react. Ill trade you my balanced stance for your ability to use shields.

01-20-2009, 10:03 PM	#25
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	Lethe5683 wrote: Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: i've been saying we need a third stance since this hit test, it will help solve a number of issues with duoing and offtanking, you get no bonuses for no stance but detaunts are much less. basically not allowing you to hold aggro against a high DPS class. for offensive stance you can up the damage taken and take out detaunts for example but how much is too much? some of us still like to solo. 10% would borderline breaking our ability to solo half decently. i feel the 5% through all of my temporaries already and can barely manage on mobs i used to do fairly easily. i would rather not see the whole class change completely but it might be inevitable. a DPSing offtank taking 10% more damage against TSO epics, even trash, won't be very effective no matter how quick you are to react. Ill trade you my balanced stance for your ability to use shields. stance for stance, sure. if you want to tank full time, the create character tab is over there ->.