Convince A MT Group - Go Mystic!

[Alexandrea]

Now that the new AA line has come out, I have seen a topic with the usual battle of who is better...a Mystic or Defiler with some mention of the new AA line making a Mystic finally be seen as MT group material.  Is this true?  I do not know enough about Defilers to really come to a good conclusion.  Can someone help me convince my guild's MT that a Mystic should be in the MT group over a Defiler?  Instead of being put in the "leftover" group as I call it, with all of the last minute adds and pure casters.

Before anyone get's their panties in a bunch, I don't have hate for Defilers and know I'm great at my class even when I am not in the main tank group but I'd like a shot.  Can anyone give me a detailed reason why a Mystic with the new AA line might be better served in the Main Tank group over a Defiler?  Thanks in advance.

[Miss_Jackie]

Whenever I attended raids with my Mystic, I was always placed into the MT's group. Always. And that was with other defiler's and healers too. It's actually a preference with some.

[Idako]

I always loved MT healing ... I think that if you have one defiler and one mystic with equal gear and skill go with the defiler in the MT still. Not because mystics lack in healing or HP buffs per say, but because they offer a lot more raid utility then a defiler (DPS, Bolster, Sentry, double attack proc, ect.). But anyone who doesn't put their best healers in the MT group  is foolish. Also I still feel defilers are SLIGHTLY better for MT position (still a bit more buffed health, and quicker debuffs between heals).

Dare I say shamen are decently balanced?

That said if you want a MT group chance, i'd just ask the raid leader before a raid. If you are on an even level with defiler as far as skill goes he'd probably be willing to do some kind of rotation, since rotating shammys would make about 1% difference in surivabilty of the raid. If he refuses even on easy content then he's either a power hungry dictator style leader, an idiot, or is dating the defiler who happens to be his girlfriends ebay toon.

Also Shamen are not the best choice for a 4th scrap group imho, clerics/druids trump us in quick HP recovery; not that we won't do in a pinch. You should be with the OT or MT...unless you are a 3rd shaman then you are kinda screwed.

[Banditman]

This is exactly it.  You don't need to convince any good raid that a Mystic is an acceptable choice as the MT group Shaman.

Given two equal players, a Defiler and a Mystic, the Mystic is a more flexible class and can do things from outside the MT group that the Defiler cannot.  Therefore, given equal players / gear / etc, the Mystic is the best choice to go somewhere besides the MT group.  It's not a case where a Mystic cannot do the job equally well.

Now, on the other hand, if there is a noticeable difference between the two players, put the better player, be it Defiler or Mystic, in the MT group.

[KatrinaDeath]

When I raided about 6 months ago I was often placed in out OT/melee dps group. Being in a group with a zerker and dirge added to my melee dps greatly. I gave them all STR adding to theirs. I was in that group for 2 reasons. 1- I could keep them all alive from the AE's which were rare on non named. And 2- I could push upwards of 3k dps 6 months ago. It's the same reason Furies go in a Mage group. An Inquisitor is also a great chouce for a OT/melee dps group for this same reason.

Defilers and Templars get into MT groups becasue they are "more" healing based (Less dps would make them more healing based, not trying to say they are better healers or have more abilities) than we are and we usually have far better dps.

But there are those raids where the Inq and Mystic get to hop into the MT group. And usually we do just fine. At least dogdog always gets to dps...

[Rayche]

I played as a Mystic for years (Mostly in the MT group) then recently changed to Defiler because I felt the speed of my debuffs and ability to strip stuns/fears while stunned was important. I also wanted the emergency abilities that defilers have... I feel I serve the MT group better in my current setup.

I am however one MASSIVE wussbag when it comes to trying to do DPS. (And with TSO out, god forbid I try to solo stuff... I bore them to death more than do DPS...

I also started to REALLY feel the pain of my slow cast times. (Defilers have more spells that cast slow overall than Mystics do.. so I started trying to pickup spell haste items.

As a Mystic I was soooooo much more versatile! I could DPS, heal, buff Tanks, scouts.. knock stuff over. It was awesome.

As a defiler I feel I can heal, debuff and cure better.

If you raid force isn't struggling terribly against the content you are facing, there's no reason you can't do a great job as MT shaman. If it starts getting real tough (Think Druushk or Nexona) that's when I went Defiler. (Oh, and Cannibalize is yummy)

Honestly.. I wish they would remove the Defiler/Mystic thing and make the class difference simply a choice of AA's. Give them both Avatar, Bolster, Canni, Torpor... this is an area where I've never felt the move to EQ2 was not an upgrade.

[Banditman]

I was in the MT group for our first kill on Druushk.  The biggest difference in healers on that fight comes down to one item:  The Shield of Rainbow Hues.  Healers who have it are at a significant advantage over those who do not.

I have not seen any content where a Defiler has any noticeable advantage over a Mystic.  I've raided everything short of Avatars.

[Ceolus]

Alexandrea wrote:

Can someone help me convince my guild's MT that a Mystic should be in the MT group over a Defiler?  Instead of being put in the "leftover" group as I call it, with all of the last minute adds and pure casters.

By giving mystics a better MT role than defilers, Mystics will be better at all roles than us (save fast debuffs)..DPS group healing, OT group healing, MT group healing, DPSing, buffing, utility. It looks like that's the direction it's taking

Imagine being your guild's MT defiler and being demoted =. I'd say just convince them you're a good healer and you won't be put in leftover groups, but don't expect them to swap you out into the MT group immediately; eventually you'll get there if you prove to be better than the other shamans. When your guild realizes they don't need druids for raids anymore you'll probably be given a better role anyway x)

Mystics as is are better for OT and DPS groups anyways, why is being in MT group so important?

[Antryg Mistrose]

Banditman wrote:

I have not seen any content where a Defiler has any noticeable advantage over a Mystic.  I've raided everything short of Avatars.

Lack of a "Hostile Group Cure" (cure while stunned/stifled) is the only thing I notice when we have a mystic rather than a defiler in the MT Group.  That is a defiler only AA I think?

[caeler]

Anyone tried an Erudite? Sounds like a good race with the decreased cast time, increased power regen, and hover ability, but how well do they really play out?

[tebion]

imo the way it is now is the way it should be ... there is no huge difference if you put a mystic or defiler (of similar skill and gear) in the MT group but its more or less a matter of preference of the raidleader (and that additional versatility banditman mentioned)

[ecoskii]

Our clerics are expected to have steadfast stance, so defilers 'cure when stunned' isn't used much anymore :0

[Darkt0wer]

Ceolus wrote:

By giving mystics a better MT role than defilers, Mystics will be better at all roles than us (save fast debuffs)..DPS group healing, OT group healing, MT group healing, DPSing, buffing, utility. It looks like that's the direction it's taking

Defilers are not really needed for MT group anymore.  The Mystic is now the best shaman to use in most all situation.

[Ceolus]

Not really. I used to play a Mystic, exiled defiler, and just took a look at the Mystic spells for a refresher. They don't really have anything that gives them a big advantage over defiler other than..DPS. Bolster is nice. VP 4-set is obviously avantageous but not every mystic has that.

Everyone mentions scout buffing, but unless I missed something I only saw STR/AGI/STA types of buffs. Most scouts should have STR pretty maxed.

[Banditman]

Mystic epic procs a group double attack buff on beneficial spells.  That plus STR buffing = great for melee DPS.

[Ceolus]

So they should be left to scout groups and let the poor defilers keep their role =

[Banditman]

Why?  Because Defilers need a bit more flexibility?  Perhaps try spending more time championing the causes of your own class than you spend trying to deep six the causes of other classes and you'll find a great deal more satisfaction.

Spend your time working toward the betterment of your class.  It goes a lot farther.  Trust me.

[flowercivicsi]

You do realize your topic is called "Convience A MT - Go Mystic", and you want the defilers to leave when your clearly taking a jab at our class?

[Banditman]

Alaocia@Guk wrote:

You do realize your topic is called "Convience A MT - Go Mystic", and you want the defilers to leave when your clearly taking a jab at our class?

First, it's not my topic.

Second, it's not jab at Defilers at all.  It's simply a need to educate raid leaders and tanks everywhere that Mystics are, finally, on par with Defilers when it comes to being a MT capable healer.  That has not been the case in quite some time.

For the longest time, Defilers had a decided advantage over Mystics.  Finally, it seems that with only a couple noteable points of exception, the Shaman are on relatively equal footing when it comes to healing a MT.  This is all Mystics ever wanted, to be capable of doing the job, without hearing "but Defilers can . . . "

The fact that you feel this is a jab at Defilers leads me to believe that you should be working dilligently to get more utility added to your class.  I don't play a Defiler, so I don't  know.  That's up to you to decide, and work toward should you feel the need.

[flowercivicsi]

In no way fashion or form would I be able to deliver same amount of DPS of a mystic mystic simply because the defiler was intended to be a more defensive class whereas Mystics were intended to be an offensive class, and you were provided with the tools you needed to get there.  I don't want to do the same amount of damage as a mystic as that would be encroaching on that aspect of your class. 

You were never in jeapordy of losing a spot on raids as you have always had tools available to you that make you a great class regardless of the expansion that was released.  Granted I am in the clear as I bust my rump to keep my spot

I have never once wanted to trump on the good points of your class, and what benefits you are able to offer those outside of the MT group.  As you know Defilers do not have a whole lot of utility outside of the MT group as our buffs are more intended for raw HP and one our single target (no concentration) buffs are intended for purley for the individual that is taking the damage.

Actually I do work on our class forums to get some of the changes we need for our class, and explain what area's we are weak in.  I just tend to visit here to see what issues your class may be facing to see if perhaps we are looking at the same types of issues.  Defilers tried to explain it in the beta forums, but were being bashed by mystic's saying we were overpowered...  Now you are talking about "educating" your MT group to think about having a mystic instead of a defiler in the MT group... hmmm

[Banditman]

Alaocia@Guk wrote:

In no way fashion or form would I be able to deliver same amount of DPS of a mystic mystic simply because the defiler was intended to be a more defensive class whereas Mystics were intended to be an offensive class, and you were provided with the tools you needed to get there. I don't want to do the same amount of damage as a mystic as that would be encroaching on that aspect of your class.

What does damage output have to do with the healing capability of a class?  Uh . . . nothing?  In fact, if you go back to the original genesis of the two classes, Defilers were actually the superior damage dealer.  Up until EoF, Defilers held that title.  It wasn't until relatively recently that Mystics were able to generate more burst DPS.  Further, that DPS is a choice requiring a substantial commitment of AA points to achieve.

You were never in jeapordy of losing a spot on raids as you have always had tools available to you that make you a great class regardless of the expansion that was released. Granted I am in the clear as I bust my rump to keep my spot

In fact, Mystics were very much in jeopardy of losing a raid spot prior to RoK.  Why would you bring one?  You didn't need or want one for a MT position unless there was no Defiler available.  There was very little off tanking to be done.  Furies could heal a group MUCH more effectively while generating substantial DPS when Healing wasn't required.  No, we have not "always" had the tools.  It's been a very, very recent development that has put Mystics on somewhat equal footing with Defilers.

I have never once wanted to trump on the good points of your class, and what benefits you are able to offer those outside of the MT group. As you know Defilers do not have a whole lot of utility outside of the MT group as our buffs are more intended for raw HP and one our single target (no concentration) buffs are intended for purley for the individual that is taking the damage.

Never once has anyone asked for anything to be taken from Defilers.  I mean sure, I'd love to have VotA or Cannibalize, but not at the expense of Defilers losing it.  If you have a problem with your utility outside the MT group, you need to define it, discuss it and work toward getting it corrected, instead of wasting your time debating whether Mystics should or should not be used in a MT group.  It looks like you're well on your way to defining it, but the Mystic forums are not the place to discuss it.

Actually I do work on our class forums to get some of the changes we need for our class, and explain what area's we are weak in. I just tend to visit here to see what issues your class may be facing to see if perhaps we are looking at the same types of issues. Defilers tried to explain it in the beta forums, but were being bashed by mystic's saying we were overpowered... Now you are talking about "educating" your MT group to think about having a mystic instead of a defiler in the MT group... hmmm

Absolutely, I am definitely all about educating raid leaders and group leaders alike that Mystics can in fact fill the MT / MH role that was previously thought to be only the purview of Defilers.  Mystics can do it.  In a perfect world, sure, every guild would have one of every class.  That isn't the case.  Many guilds can't find a Defiler, or suffer with a bad one while a good Mystic rots.

I am a strong backer of this class, Mystics.  I waste absolutely no time in the Defiler forums.  I know nothing about the class.  I am not ashamed of it.  My focus is this class (and the other classes that I play regularly and know well).  How can I be a voice for the Mystic class if I'm more concerned about what Defilers may be doing to encroach on our "territory"?

I will continue to work toward having Mystics recognized as a viable, strong option as a MT Healer.  As I've said, many times, both in this thread and elsewhere, given two Shaman, Mystic and Defiler, put the best player in the MT group.  Given equal players, put the Defiler in the MT group.  I still believe that, because I believe that's how it works best.  However, I also recognize that there are far more situations that don't fall so neatly into the "two competent, equal shaman" catagory.  In that case, I want to be sure that everyone has all the facts in order to make decisions which benefit everyone.

[Ceolus]

I feel the need to defend my class and its raid spot due to the nature of the original post. He's asking how to convince his raid leader to kick the defiler out of his position because mystics are now better in MT group (and everywhere else). I'm guessing he doesn't realize that without being in MT group, a defiler can't do much else..but the replies went on.

Before ROK, changes were needed and when they came they were well-balanced (where Mystics were finally given a different, suitable, and equally important role in a raid setup: OT/scout group healing and utility and a bonus of DPS..vesatility), though the VP set balance was way askew. Illusionists do not complain that they are never in MT group instead of the coercer (honestly, who cares which group you are in if you are playing an important role?) Their buffs work better for DPS groups, and the coercer's buffs work better for the MT group and that's just how it is. I'm all for the different raid group roles that classes have, and I don't feel that each class should be suited for just any group. Saying that Mystics just have to be able to fit MT position is greedy. They fit more positions than Defiler does (and are not any less needed), so leave Defilers to their single MT group.

It is absolutely a concern that the Mystic class' is "encroaching upon our territory" because this means, well....NO RAID SPOT. I play the game to raid, and I love the Defiler class. I do not come to the Mystic forum to whine about nerfing the class. There are often useful shaman-in-general posts, but when I happen upon a thread with a title like "Convince A MT Group - Go Mystic!" of course I'm going to click it.

The defiler community certainly certainly is working to convince devs to fix these problems, and I'm definitely not blaming Mystics for the recent changes, but posts like these are just aggitating. I'd prefer that Defilers were kept best for MT, and Mystics were kept best for off-MT groups, but I'm going to have to settle for hoping that Defilers can have some sort of use/versatility.

[Anadorn]

Ceolus wrote:

I feel the need to defend my class and its raid spot due to the nature of the original post. He's asking how to convince his raid leader to kick the defiler out of his position because mystics are now better in MT group (and everywhere else). I'm guessing he doesn't realize that without being in MT group, a defiler can't do much else..but the replies went on.

Before ROK, changes were needed and when they came they were well-balanced (where Mystics were finally given a different, suitable, and equally important role in a raid setup: OT/scout group healing and utility and a bonus of DPS..vesatility), though the VP set balance was way askew. Illusionists do not complain that they are never in MT group instead of the coercer (honestly, who cares which group you are in if you are playing an important role?) Their buffs work better for DPS groups, and the coercer's buffs work better for the MT group and that's just how it is. I'm all for the different raid group roles that classes have, and I don't feel that each class should be suited for just any group. Saying that Mystics just have to be able to fit MT position is greedy. They fit more positions than Defiler does (and are not any less needed), so leave Defilers to their single MT group.

It is absolutely a concern that the Mystic class' is "encroaching upon our territory" because this means, well....NO RAID SPOT. I play the game to raid, and I love the Defiler class. I do not come to the Mystic forum to whine about nerfing the class. There are often useful shaman-in-general posts, but when I happen upon a thread with a title like "Convince A MT Group - Go Mystic!" of course I'm going to click it.

The defiler community certainly certainly is working to convince devs to fix these problems, and I'm definitely not blaming Mystics for the recent changes, but posts like these are just aggitating. I'd prefer that Defilers were kept best for MT, and Mystics were kept best for off-MT groups, but I'm going to have to settle for hoping that Defilers can have some sort of use/versatility.

This type of mentality is what we've been trying to correct with our changes.  It's not YOUR position in mt spot it's A spot in a raid and we as mystics felt that we should be just as beneficial in that position as a defiler.  What if a change came out that did a complete switch that gave defilers more benefit for being in OT/scout group and mystics a standard MT role.  Would you still me mad because it's YOUR spot?  It does seem that yes the original poster of the message is or was trying to make justifications that we should be the sole retainers of that position but if you've read through the posts you can see it's changed directions and evolved into a more broad conversation.  Banditman has more than once explained the fact that, as of now, we still fit more in an OT or scout position in a raid than MT and is where we will still find ourselves most of the time, but it seems like defilers have a problem with us even being an option.  I agree defilers were looked over in this expanion and it seems that you should be working more to try and make your class more diverse than being argumentative and trying to change our class. 

A raid is a group effort on all parties and if you've contributed to your guild or raid and can accomplish what you need done why does it matter where they put you as long as your successful or had fun doing it.  Just b/c mystics can equally fill the spot in MT doesn't mean that is where we belong.

[LardLord]

I guess Inquisitors should be as good as Templars in the MT group, too!  Defilers need some buffs or something to be as good as Mystics in the non-tank groups.  Furies need some death saves or something, and Wardens need to be able to DPS as well as Furies. 

That way every priest can fit equally well in every group! Hurray!

Or maybe it'd be better to have more defined roles?

[Banditman]

We've cleared VP with an Inquisitor as our MT Cleric.  I've cleared Lower Corridors of Guk, Ravenscale Repository and Atrebe's Lab with an Inquisitor as the only healer.  Sure, Templars have some very significant tools that Inquisitors don't have and perhaps they could use some help, but Inquisitors are not "gimped" by any means.

Furies are a very, very special case and I'm sure that entire community is quaking in it's collective boots waiting for the nerf bat to fall.  It's coming.  I know it, you know it and they know it.

Yes, I'd love to see Priests flexible enough to bring something to every group.

Oh wait!  They already do!   Healing!

[lstead]

In no way fashion or form would I be able to deliver same amount of DPS of a mystic mystic simply because the defiler was intended to be a more defensive class whereas Mystics were intended to be an offensive class, and you were provided with the tools you needed to get there.

Don't argue original intent, it has nothing to do with today and was actually quite the opposite. Defilers were the offensive debuffers and Mystics were the defensive buffers. Both were healers because all healers can heal. Even though it has been quite some time since that was the case in reality, the descriptions on the current page still show the original intent to be opposite of what has been reality in recent times:

The Defiler is a shaman of corruption and spiritual enslavement.  A powerful ally, Defilers are able to mend wounds and remove ailments from the afflicted.  Fearsome in battle, Defilers employ ancient rituals of dark power to sicken, harm and reduce the fighting prowess of the enemy.

The Mystic is a shaman of spiritual preservation and enlightenment.  Mystics are known for their poverty warding spells that protect allies from harm.  The Mystic can enhance the party’s attributes and provide magical protection in combat while inflicting debilitating weakness upon the enemy.

[Khrunk]

ecoskii wrote:

Our clerics are expected to have steadfast stance, so defilers 'cure when stunned' isn't used much anymore :0

steadfast doesn't work on stuns tbh.

[Hendu]

I give my raid leader a hard time about not putting me in the MT group all of the time, but his reasons for choosing defiler are simple.  He likes the self cure. I see a lot of reasoning behind that and accept it.  Instead, I get OT group, usually solo.  My parse is high, and it's a lot of fun. 

IMO, whatever is best for the raid.  I'll get the MT spot occasionally, but when the leader moves 2 healers into another group because someone can't keep up and leaves me solo in OT group, I take a lot of pride in his confidence in me and can't be upset about not being in MT group at that time.

[Apos]

The differences are pretty marginal when you get down to it. I'm a raidleader and mystic, and usually put myself in an OT group since it's more effective. I mean it matters but the differences are small enough where it'd almost never make or break things. A defiler can solo heal trak or byzola in MT group, I can too. Who cares really.

[LardLord]

Banditman wrote:

We've cleared VP with an Inquisitor as our MT Cleric. 

And we've cleared VP (before TSO) without an MT Cleric at all 

I was apparently in an unpleasant mood when I first replied to this thread, but I was just saying that I don't think all the classes need to be able to fill every role well.  Templars and Mystics are currently optimal (or close to it) in each group in a raid...MT, OT, or any type of DPS group.  Some people think that's fine and that the other four priests should all have such versatility.  I disagree.  I think having classes with defined roles in raids adds to the game and makes it better. It's difficult for me to explain why, but, to me, it adds to the feeling that you're working as a team.  If one player can fill any role, there is less of a "team" feeling for me...I like having to rely on my guild's Templar to be the MT Cleric (though obviously I can fill in as an Inquisitor, it's not nearly as nice of fit).  I wish I could explain it better...

And by the way, I didn't say anything about Inquisitors being [Removed for Content].  We got several subtle (and some not-so-subtle) boosts with TSO and are doing quite well in our role (which is outside of the MT group on raids).