Aggro management

moonba · 08-13-2008, 09:23 AM

Well to start this out i have a lvl 63 zerker on the crushbone server, i also have a 72 zerker on the nektulos server.I usually always get compliments on my tanking saying "Your an awesome tank" or " We need more tanks like yourself ",i can hold aggro very well usually never loose aggro even against brigands and warlocks, sometimes wizards but thatspretty rare, and all of my CA, taunts, and buffs are adept I or app IV with hand crafted weapons, yes i understand thati need to upgrade my weapons and abilities but being new to the server i dont have much money and i dont want to rely on the guild to help me get money.But one thing i do have a probelm is when im tanking would be Bruiser/Monk i swear almost every time i group with a brawler they would get aggro every couple fights, i say to myself well maybe they have adept III plus masters or something,but one of my friends told me that their taunt stance procs x2 faster than a guards or a zerker. So immediatly i check if theyhave it up and tell them to turn it off, it helps but it didnt really solve the issue of me loosing aggro to them because i wouldstill loose aggro to them. So im really confused on how i can keep aggro off all the other DPS classes but not bruiser/monks.

Aull · 08-13-2008, 10:10 AM

Well monks have an ability that has a chance to proc a taunt every time they hit the mob that has a proc rating of 10.0 procs per min. Take into account that monks have such high self haste that makes them consistantly hands and fists above any other melee class in the game when it comes to auto attack. A monk will possibly be hitting a mob two times to every one of the other melee classes unless those other melee classes are hasted just as high. That is one reason why monks on single targets ripp aggro so much.

Bruisers have a similar proc that has a 4.9 ppm rating, but bruisers cannot haste auto attack. This ability not only procs a taunt but also procs a small direct damage along with it. Not to mention that some of the bruiser's combat arts hit very hard even more so if these combat arts critical. Most players have no concept of letting the mt generate some hate before attacking and that is most of the problem.

The mages that you have grouped with my understand to let you generate aggro first before they lay into the damage heavily. Consistant dps doesn't ripp aggro like spike dps does. That is why so many mages get into trouble fast. No taunt currently in game can compair to a wizzies 20k critical only 7 seconds after the pull is made. Paladins can hold aggro better than any fighter I have seen with amends but that is a whole different thread.

Anyway just watch these monks and bruisers when you make the pull. If they are swinging the second the mob is at the group and you have only one taunt and two hits in then aggro will be theirs. Also brawlers get aa choices to have a detaunting stance that helps alot if they have chosen that path. Most bruisers will not use this stance becuase they feel they are lossing dps if not using their manhandle line that procs threat and damage, but the dps loss is minor on short 30 sec or less fights.

Obadiah · 08-13-2008, 10:15 AM

The same problem would exist if the bruiser/monk tried to tank and you were DPS. You would probably take aggro from them every few fights - for example, when Rampage was up. It's more a function of Fighters not having de-aggro abilities than anything else. Obviously Adept 3s and Masters will help, but I wouldn't worry about it if it's just briefly every few fights.

JAFO74 · 08-18-2008, 06:48 AM

They rip aggro every couple fights.. The issue is likely Dev fist, nothing more. I wouldnt worry about it, brawlers have the best de aggro ability in the game. It is hard to keep aggro off of other fighters in general. I have noticed the same problem from time to time with brawlers.

I was running RE2 with a bruiser the other day and he kept wiping my healers by using dev fist while behind the mob. The mob would turn and ae the group, dead healers. I had to tell him to come to my side of the mob when he was going to fire that off until i got aggro back or the mob was dead, whichever came first.

Fighters don't play well with other fighters as a rule.

LygerT · 08-18-2008, 11:54 AM

dps is aggro and brawlers should be doing more dps than zerkers, the others you grouped with either likely sucked or you had classes that transferred hate to you as tanks(bard). brawlers are tanks, any tank in the same group is probably going to give you aggro issues from time to time.

einar4 · 08-18-2008, 01:06 PM

Agree with Lyger. The brawlers are going to pull aggro, but don't stress it. I've played a bruiser also and have pulled agro from everyone but a guardian. The thing is, the brawler knows what (s)he's doing (or should know).

He is a tank and should be able to handle a few hits, he should know to hold off at first and know when to tone it down to let you get aggro back. He can throw his heal on himself if he gets hit hard, and worse case can feign to shed hate and pass the aggro back to you as a last resort. One of the reasons that aggro for tanks has been so heavily nerfed over time was to force DPS classes to watch their own hate and not just button mash. Unfortunately, it often makes the tanks look bad, as the perception is still that the tank is 100% responsible for holding aggro (rather than 99.1% SMILEY )

Just observe, if you are holding aggro with warlocks, wizards, brigands, and other dps, but losing it to a brawler... well... it's probably not you

Aull · 08-18-2008, 06:46 PM

Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:

Agree with Lyger. The brawlers are going to pull aggro, but don't stress it. I've played a bruiser also and have pulled agro from everyone but a guardian. The thing is, the brawler knows what (s)he's doing (or should know).
He is a tank and should be able to handle a few hits, he should know to hold off at first and know when to tone it down to let you get aggro back. He can throw his heal on himself if he gets hit hard, and worse case can feign to shed hate and pass the aggro back to you as a last resort. One of the reasons that aggro for tanks has been so heavily nerfed over time was to force DPS classes to watch their own hate and not just button mash. Unfortunately, it often makes the tanks look bad, as the perception is still that the tank is 100% responsible for holding aggro (rather than 99.1% )
Just observe, if you are holding aggro with warlocks, wizards, brigands, and other dps, but losing it to a brawler... well... it's probably not you

Well stated!

Lordsguard · 08-27-2008, 01:45 PM

First off back in days of yore...we started this game as fighters. You then had to pick a sub-class at level 10 you had to go warrior, and then at 20 you chose whether to go Guardian or Berserker. According to SOE's descriptions, "Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies," while "The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies." If you have ever played with a Guardian most time you will see that they tend to focus all their attention on one mob in an encounter and trust that their Hold the Line and Guard (encounter taunt) will keep aggro on the encounter. Zerkers on the other hand, tend to hit, tab, taunt, and generally hit every thing they can. The point is Zerkers are made to play very aggressively as tanks. That's how we tank. Tanking is mostly about attitude. The "Hell no, that mobs is mine" attitude goes a long way. However, like so many others have said another tank will give you aggro issues, as they are a tank and should be dps'ing the mob and riding that line of taking aggro. Occasionally they will pull aggro, just the nature of the game. However, I do recommend grouping with other tank classes in the game from time to time as it will help keep your skills sharp.

Just a little tip that I use is I macro Goading Gesture (the Splitpaw taunt) to my Autoattack. It doesn't generate the same base number of threat as say Mock, but with the 10% proc to apply a second taunt at its termination, it goes a long way. It is a two for one sort of deal. By looking through ACT I have noticed it procs a bit more than the listed 10% in the CA's description, so it pulls its weight. Also with the ability to Macro CA's now, I tend to link my taunts with the CA's that have the same recast time. So while I press the CA, taunt goes off while waiting for the double attack on my autoattacks, and then I lay in again.

Also dps = hate, debuffs = hate. On the pull I like to chain Invasion, Head Crush, Dismember, and Body Check. The reason being is your doing burst damage which is what RoK is all about, and the added debuffs to the mob will add to the hate, for single targets. Group encounters I go Open Wounds, Turmoil, hit the Instant Berserk for our EoF tree, Juggernaut and Adrenaline, say a few things about the monsters mothers and let the spike damage ensure they pretty much want me dead. What works for me may not work for you, so play around with things a bit.

Thing to remember is this game changes all the time, and what worked yesterday may not be true today. From simple updates, live updates, and expansions I've seen quite a few changes that have needed revisions in tanking style. From pouring through the forums a lot of what I see in the various threads is people refusing to adapt to changes and relying on what used to work. Chances are in November when the next expansion hits, it'll be time to find new methods again.

Ultimately the Zerker is an aggressive dps tank, and should be played that way. Now go out kill everything, because it needs to die.

08-13-2008, 10:15 AM	#3
Obadiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,154	The same problem would exist if the bruiser/monk tried to tank and you were DPS. You would probably take aggro from them every few fights - for example, when Rampage was up. It's more a function of Fighters not having de-aggro abilities than anything else. Obviously Adept 3s and Masters will help, but I wouldn't worry about it if it's just briefly every few fights. __________________

08-18-2008, 01:06 PM	#6
einar4 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Agree with Lyger. The brawlers are going to pull aggro, but don't stress it. I've played a bruiser also and have pulled agro from everyone but a guardian. The thing is, the brawler knows what (s)he's doing (or should know). He is a tank and should be able to handle a few hits, he should know to hold off at first and know when to tone it down to let you get aggro back. He can throw his heal on himself if he gets hit hard, and worse case can feign to shed hate and pass the aggro back to you as a last resort. One of the reasons that aggro for tanks has been so heavily nerfed over time was to force DPS classes to watch their own hate and not just button mash. Unfortunately, it often makes the tanks look bad, as the perception is still that the tank is 100% responsible for holding aggro (rather than 99.1% ) Just observe, if you are holding aggro with warlocks, wizards, brigands, and other dps, but losing it to a brawler... well... it's probably not you __________________ Pagris, Jhervais etc. "Sage, did I err?" Groo the Wanderer.

08-18-2008, 06:46 PM	#7
Aull Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,429	Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote: Agree with Lyger. The brawlers are going to pull aggro, but don't stress it. I've played a bruiser also and have pulled agro from everyone but a guardian. The thing is, the brawler knows what (s)he's doing (or should know). He is a tank and should be able to handle a few hits, he should know to hold off at first and know when to tone it down to let you get aggro back. He can throw his heal on himself if he gets hit hard, and worse case can feign to shed hate and pass the aggro back to you as a last resort. One of the reasons that aggro for tanks has been so heavily nerfed over time was to force DPS classes to watch their own hate and not just button mash. Unfortunately, it often makes the tanks look bad, as the perception is still that the tank is 100% responsible for holding aggro (rather than 99.1% ) Just observe, if you are holding aggro with warlocks, wizards, brigands, and other dps, but losing it to a brawler... well... it's probably not you Well stated!

08-27-2008, 01:45 PM	#8
Lordsguard Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 19	First off back in days of yore...we started this game as fighters. You then had to pick a sub-class at level 10 you had to go warrior, and then at 20 you chose whether to go Guardian or Berserker. According to SOE's descriptions, "Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies," while "The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies." If you have ever played with a Guardian most time you will see that they tend to focus all their attention on one mob in an encounter and trust that their Hold the Line and Guard (encounter taunt) will keep aggro on the encounter. Zerkers on the other hand, tend to hit, tab, taunt, and generally hit every thing they can. The point is Zerkers are made to play very aggressively as tanks. That's how we tank. Tanking is mostly about attitude. The "Hell no, that mobs is mine" attitude goes a long way. However, like so many others have said another tank will give you aggro issues, as they are a tank and should be dps'ing the mob and riding that line of taking aggro. Occasionally they will pull aggro, just the nature of the game. However, I do recommend grouping with other tank classes in the game from time to time as it will help keep your skills sharp. Just a little tip that I use is I macro Goading Gesture (the Splitpaw taunt) to my Autoattack. It doesn't generate the same base number of threat as say Mock, but with the 10% proc to apply a second taunt at its termination, it goes a long way. It is a two for one sort of deal. By looking through ACT I have noticed it procs a bit more than the listed 10% in the CA's description, so it pulls its weight. Also with the ability to Macro CA's now, I tend to link my taunts with the CA's that have the same recast time. So while I press the CA, taunt goes off while waiting for the double attack on my autoattacks, and then I lay in again. Also dps = hate, debuffs = hate. On the pull I like to chain Invasion, Head Crush, Dismember, and Body Check. The reason being is your doing burst damage which is what RoK is all about, and the added debuffs to the mob will add to the hate, for single targets. Group encounters I go Open Wounds, Turmoil, hit the Instant Berserk for our EoF tree, Juggernaut and Adrenaline, say a few things about the monsters mothers and let the spike damage ensure they pretty much want me dead. What works for me may not work for you, so play around with things a bit. Thing to remember is this game changes all the time, and what worked yesterday may not be true today. From simple updates, live updates, and expansions I've seen quite a few changes that have needed revisions in tanking style. From pouring through the forums a lot of what I see in the various threads is people refusing to adapt to changes and relying on what used to work. Chances are in November when the next expansion hits, it'll be time to find new methods again. Ultimately the Zerker is an aggressive dps tank, and should be played that way. Now go out kill everything, because it needs to die. __________________

08-13-2008, 09:23 AM	#1
moonba General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 5	Well to start this out i have a lvl 63 zerker on the crushbone server, i also have a 72 zerker on the nektulos server.I usually always get compliments on my tanking saying "Your an awesome tank" or " We need more tanks like yourself ",i can hold aggro very well usually never loose aggro even against brigands and warlocks, sometimes wizards but thatspretty rare, and all of my CA, taunts, and buffs are adept I or app IV with hand crafted weapons, yes i understand thati need to upgrade my weapons and abilities but being new to the server i dont have much money and i dont want to rely on the guild to help me get money.But one thing i do have a probelm is when im tanking would be Bruiser/Monk i swear almost every time i group with a brawler they would get aggro every couple fights, i say to myself well maybe they have adept III plus masters or something,but one of my friends told me that their taunt stance procs x2 faster than a guards or a zerker. So immediatly i check if theyhave it up and tell them to turn it off, it helps but it didnt really solve the issue of me loosing aggro to them because i wouldstill loose aggro to them. So im really confused on how i can keep aggro off all the other DPS classes but not bruiser/monks.

08-13-2008, 10:10 AM	#2
Aull Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,429	Well monks have an ability that has a chance to proc a taunt every time they hit the mob that has a proc rating of 10.0 procs per min. Take into account that monks have such high self haste that makes them consistantly hands and fists above any other melee class in the game when it comes to auto attack. A monk will possibly be hitting a mob two times to every one of the other melee classes unless those other melee classes are hasted just as high. That is one reason why monks on single targets ripp aggro so much. Bruisers have a similar proc that has a 4.9 ppm rating, but bruisers cannot haste auto attack. This ability not only procs a taunt but also procs a small direct damage along with it. Not to mention that some of the bruiser's combat arts hit very hard even more so if these combat arts critical. Most players have no concept of letting the mt generate some hate before attacking and that is most of the problem. The mages that you have grouped with my understand to let you generate aggro first before they lay into the damage heavily. Consistant dps doesn't ripp aggro like spike dps does. That is why so many mages get into trouble fast. No taunt currently in game can compair to a wizzies 20k critical only 7 seconds after the pull is made. Paladins can hold aggro better than any fighter I have seen with amends but that is a whole different thread. Anyway just watch these monks and bruisers when you make the pull. If they are swinging the second the mob is at the group and you have only one taunt and two hits in then aggro will be theirs. Also brawlers get aa choices to have a detaunting stance that helps alot if they have chosen that path. Most bruisers will not use this stance becuase they feel they are lossing dps if not using their manhandle line that procs threat and damage, but the dps loss is minor on short 30 sec or less fights.

08-18-2008, 06:48 AM	#4
JAFO74 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 79	They rip aggro every couple fights.. The issue is likely Dev fist, nothing more. I wouldnt worry about it, brawlers have the best de aggro ability in the game. It is hard to keep aggro off of other fighters in general. I have noticed the same problem from time to time with brawlers. I was running RE2 with a bruiser the other day and he kept wiping my healers by using dev fist while behind the mob. The mob would turn and ae the group, dead healers. I had to tell him to come to my side of the mob when he was going to fire that off until i got aggro back or the mob was dead, whichever came first. Fighters don't play well with other fighters as a rule.

08-18-2008, 11:54 AM	#5
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	dps is aggro and brawlers should be doing more dps than zerkers, the others you grouped with either likely sucked or you had classes that transferred hate to you as tanks(bard). brawlers are tanks, any tank in the same group is probably going to give you aggro issues from time to time.