Dual Wield, 1 hand w/Shield, or 2 hand

[Bulbnoz]

I noticed that this has been asked before but I couldn't find any recent postings regarding this and was curious if things had changed. What is the best set up for a zerker? Dual wield, 1 hand and shield, or a 2 hander? I've been using 2 hander this whole time (i'm 27 now).

[Xalmat]

1 hand + Buckler. But to really capitalize on it you need to invest points into the STA line of Achievements.STA 4-4-8-8 to be exact.

[LygerT]

even with some of the best gear available to me, dual wield and 2 handed still doesn't hold a candle to buckler/1handed.

[Bulbnoz]

Thanks for the info guys.

[Halato]

When you guys say "1 handed and a buckler," are you being literal, or can we use kite shields and larger with shield reversal? 

[Xalmat]

Literal. With the STA tree, your only shield option becomes a buckler, or you lose the benefits of the entire STA tree.

[Oceaarea]

Xalmat wrote:

Literal. With the STA tree, your only shield option becomes a buckler, or you lose the benefits of the entire STA tree.

This drives me crazy! ...the lore rationale  is sound, A tower shield is just much to heavy  to effectively wield as a weapon....but come on, at least let us use the Round shield which has stats more appropriate to a zerk !

[Uwopo]

From a purely DPS point of view, I've found that Dual Wield was the best route.  I've got enough survivability to tank any of the RoK instances and my guild doesn't need me to OT on raids.  In the event I do end up tanking, I macro in a tower shield and Adrenaline and I can usually survive until the MT or OT is back up.Now, 1H + Buckler is clearly the best combination of DPS + survivability, but am I missing something as far as DW being the best single target DPS?WIS: 4-4-8-8-1INT: 4-5-8-8-1STR: 4-4-8Wielding Battleaxe of Venom and Nox Noctis.  I realize the Nox Noctis is fast, but since most of the CAs cast in under 1 second, I don't feel like I'm losing melee DPS unless I use an AE, which I just avoid.  I bagged the Fabled Epic for the Battleaxe because DPS seemed higher in the limited testing I did.  The 5 DA, 7 DPS and superior damage rating on the Nox Noctis seemed to outweigh the low delay.Opinions?

[Nembutal]

From purely a DPS standpoint dual wield might be the best by a small margin... if you have very high dbl attack where the STA spec might make some of yoru dbl attack to go past 100% then dual wield would start to shine even more.But if you get the RIGHT buckler like Harbinger of Malcontent... it helps compensate... and you get the survivability.Ironically with my toon when I want to do max DPS I have to put on some defensive gear... something I want you to stop and think about.I have the Mythical... I am a master of AoE combat... you ever tank large amounts of mobs?  The key is living... you WILL have aggro in these cases on MOST of the mobs... so you have to be able to mitigate and avoid it.

[Zhonata]

Skoshi@Guk wrote:

From purely a DPS standpoint dual wield might be the best by a small margin... if you have very high dbl attack where the STA spec might make some of yoru dbl attack to go past 100% then dual wield would start to shine even more.But if you get the RIGHT buckler like Harbinger of Malcontent... it helps compensate... and you get the survivability.Ironically with my toon when I want to do max DPS I have to put on some defensive gear... something I want you to stop and think about.I have the Mythical... I am a master of AoE combat... you ever tank large amounts of mobs?  The key is living... you WILL have aggro in these cases on MOST of the mobs... so you have to be able to mitigate and avoid it.

/agree

Unlike scouts we dont have deaggro parsing 6-7k = Gank on MT alot and if you are duel wielding you splat, heck you splat a lot with buckler. This is just for single target mobs start factoring in our AOE dps and if you are going to be tanking something whether you like it or not.

[LygerT]

plus, i have never seen much more than 5% gains while dual wielding, yet you give up so much survivability it's not even funny. i may test it on occasion when i have about 160% double attack with my buckler equipped because i hate to see it go to waste but honestly, if you want to dual wield, roll a freaking scout.. as i sit, i need 75%+ double attack WHILE dual wielding to surpass the DPS of a buckler and 1 hander, of course gear does factor into the equation but only so much, so if you got that and more, go for it but i seriously doubt you will be pushing those numbers anytime soon.

[Slayer505]

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

/agree

Unlike scouts we dont have deaggro parsing 6-7k = Gank on MT alot and if you are duel wielding you splat, heck you splat a lot with buckler. This is just for single target mobs start factoring in our AOE dps and if you are going to be tanking something whether you like it or not.

lol That's why I love being MT.  I was OT back through EoF and I used to HATE holding back on my DPS so I didn't rip aggro.  As MT I can just go to town!  In fact, that's the best way to hold aggro.  It's not hard to hold aggro on a tier 1 DPS class that's doing close to 10k DPS when I'm doing 6-7k on the same mob with capped hate gain and a transfer from my coercer who is also doing 6k+.

[Uwopo]

I suppose I'll have to give 1H+Buckler another chance now that I picked up Virtue's Guard, but I think the gear difference between me and top end Berserkers is making DW seem more attractive for me.If I take the STA line, I lose either WIS +DPS/Mit/Stance Mastery or INT +Haste/Parry/Reuse Speed.  My guild's raid force is far from optimal, so I am rarely, if ever capped in DPS or Haste and never capped in Crit or DA.  I have a tower shield macro'd to Body Check, which is the first thing I hit if I pull aggro.For me, pro's of DW are the following, assuming two equal quality weapons:75% more autoattack damage from Dual Wield (actually more for me, since my offhand has a higher damage rating)Benefit of either INT or WIS line, one of which I'd have to give up for STAHigher overall mitigation and avoidance at the push of a button (may not still be the case since I got VG)DA over 40% isn't wastedCons of course are that until I get my shield macro'd in, I'm gonna get clobbered.1H+Buckler:60% more autoattack damage from DA (potentially less, since with bard/illu, I will be over 100%)Higher riposte damage when tanking and additional damage from buckler reversal (good for groups, but I rarely tank on raids)Always ready to tankNow, I realize I'm raiding my Berserker like a scout, but my guild is far from hardcore and I regularly parse 1st or 2nd.  I'm sure I could DPS more as a scout, but I also wouldn't have the option of macroing in my tower shield and popping adrenaline when the MT drops.

[Xalmat]

Uwopo@Antonia Bayle wrote:

For me, pro's of DW are the following, assuming two equal quality weapons:75% more autoattack damage from Dual Wield (actually more for me, since my offhand has a higher damage rating)

50%, not 75%, assuming two equal weapons. Your delay on your weapons when dual wielding is increased by 33% (ie, a 3 delay weapon becomes 4 delay, a 4 delay weapon becomes 5.33 delay), which reduces each weapon's effectiveness by 25%. However, two 75% effective weapons equals 50% gain over single wield.

[Uwopo]

Yeah, my bad, 50%.  I think I had one of those math moments.I respec'd last night and dumped the WIS line in favor of STA.  I haven't done enough testing to really compare DPS to dual wield, but I definitely miss Stance Mastery and the ~17 DPS from the WIS line.  I'm tempted to ditch INT, because so little of my DPS comes CAs anyway that I don't think I'll miss the reuse decrease as much.I'm thinking I might respec to:STR 4-4-8STA 4-4-8-5WIS 4-4-8INT 4-4-8In order to maximize my DPS.  In my current build, even with the VG and full STA line, I don't have as much mitigation and avoidance as I did when I was macroing in my Penitent Greatshield.  Instance tanking was never an issue even with offensive stance and dual wield though, so if I can muster more DPS out of 1H+buckler while gaining the extra avoidance over DW, it can only help.  I'm still going to need to switch stances on raids if I pull aggro and my overall mitigation and avoidance will be significantly lower than it was with the Penitent Greatshield and the mitigation and parry from INT and WIS lines.  If I can pick up a Harbinger of Malcontent, that will help offset some of the combat mods and damage I lost by switching out my Nox Noctis for a shield.

[Zhonata]

In terms of DPS I have tested both lines up and while I hate math so forget seeing any percentages, I can tell you this. If you are Duel wielding you are are getting as stated the 33% delay reduction on your Off Hand which mean your timing on your weapon is going to be off and issue considering that Timing our AA is crucial. Running the Buckler Line you Hit 2 times on the same Delay for around the same amount of DMG. The only reason to choose Duel Wield over the Buckler Line is For procs rate which if you have a dirge or templar should not be and issue, outside of this the dmg diffrence is minimal, In fact in my test I did less overall dmg. On top of this the DA and Melee Crit is up to a 100% chance to hit a Con mob. That percent chance is reduced as you go over your level I.E. I am pretty much always well over 100% DA/Crit and only DA and Crit 86-92% of the time. There are people that are pushing 140+ DA/Crit and still do not hit DA/Crit 100% of the time so there is a point in going over 100%.

I dont have the Penitent Greatshield but I do have the Arcane Great Wall, Same Protection. With Virtue's Guard equiped I have 45.3% Avoidance in DPS gear and O-stance with Arcane Greatwall I have 42.9% Avoidance. THe reason for this is Gladiator's Revenge +8% chance to reposite there are only a couple shields like "Shield of the Green Dragon" and Shields from VP that willl give you Slighlty more avoidance at A huge hit to your DPS. As far as losing the DPS and mitigation from the Wisdom Line, Avoidance is King that mitigation is a drop in the bucket and Buckler Reversal Does far more overall dmg than 19 DPS boost, Put on the strength ring if you need dps. The end line abilty for Wisdom is nice but it isnt worth the loss in DPS/ Aggro from the STR,STA,INT line. I am able to Off tank Mobs in VP in Offensive stance without it so Like I said its nice, but not worth it IMO. The INT line gives more than just haste its give a couple things like Casting Speed, Recovery Speed, and Reuse Speed Reduction via Acceleration Strike/ Relentless Assault and +19 Parry *Avoidance is King*.

You Said that you dont play a scout because you like the option to OT if the MT goes down. I parse in the Top 3-4 in raid with a Ranger, Assasin, and Monk against single target mobs. If you really want to be able to OT if the tank goes down you are only hurting yourself by duelwielding. You arent going to do as much dmg, you arent going to have as much avoidance, and you arent going to be able to hold aggro with a tower shield equiped. Finally, no matter how you roll the Dice Zerkers Dmg is directly tied to our Grp buffs we see far more benifit from them vs. Scouts if you want to do dmg and OT you needs to have a well built grp. Hope This helps

Current Spec

Str - 4-4-8

Sta - 4 -4-8-8-1

Int- 4-5-8-8-1

[Airbornee]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

plus, i have never seen much more than 5% gains while dual wielding, yet you give up so much survivability it's not even funny. i may test it on occasion when i have about 160% double attack with my buckler equipped because i hate to see it go to waste but honestly, if you want to dual wield, roll a freaking scout.. as i sit, i need 75%+ double attack WHILE dual wielding to surpass the DPS of a buckler and 1 hander, of course gear does factor into the equation but only so much, so if you got that and more, go for it but i seriously doubt you will be pushing those numbers anytime soon.

Stopped reading this thread halfway through.. but.. dual wielding IS effective.  It is dependent on gear, the right buffs, and MOST important, the right weapons.. but it is very very viable.

 First off I'm the standard buckler zerker AA specs.. so don't even bother switching that.  I tried dual wielding my mythical and the blade from druushk.. and honestly it blew.  My dps stayed the same and some fights it was much lower.  But when I got the hammer of swirling energies off of Travern... man that weapon can hit. (NOTICE both my weapons are 3.5sec delay)

 If in any given group I can get my DA to 40-50.. then my dps goes from (avg in VP) lowest 4k and highest 5500... to a lowest 5k and high 5800.  NOW that's already an improvement that says DW does work.. but then if you add in ANY extra DA its all coasting from there.  One night I was running with 64 DA and I was doing a lowest 5200, average 6k, with semi frequent spikes to 7k/7.2k.

 Best part about it is on my worst parses I'm seeing the numbers I struggled to get with buckler.  Keep in mind there will be fights where you'll need the buckler so I suggest NOT changing your spec.  I've tanked SoH first 4 nameds and trash, all of PR, all of Korsha including OK, Ekron and all trash in VP with DW.. but obviously you'll need buckler for fights like Druushk and Nexona.

[LygerT]

i've hit over 8k single target in soh, 12k on multiples in TnT, all with buckler/1h. the difference you get from maxxing dual wield, still just doesn't show me any shining light on why it's worth the effort to even bother.

[Zhonata]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

i've hit over 8k single target in soh, 12k on multiples in TnT, all with buckler/1h. the difference you get from maxxing dual wield, still just doesn't show me any shining light on why it's worth the effort to even bother.

/agree

I can Auto attack for low 4k in raid.....

[Airbornee]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

i've hit over 8k single target in soh, 12k on multiples in TnT, all with buckler/1h. the difference you get from maxxing dual wield, still just doesn't show me any shining light on why it's worth the effort to even bother.

yeah but SoH and TnT(which I don't even do anymore) are easy hit rate zones.. not terribly hard to get numbers like that.  Either way you don't have to like it.. I just like that I went from being a few hundred dps over our guard, to close to 2k over most of the time while OTing.

 I like it.. and with adrenaline I never have to worry about tossing a shield on when I pull aggro real quick, so it feels like a good thing for this class.

[LygerT]

i was just using it as an example because of the hit rates, our auto attack is weakened on higher conning mobs, which will effect dual wielding as much if not more than our buckler spec.

i never said i don't like it but it's meh, the difference in dps for the huge loss to survivability just makes zerks look like fools who wear plate and trying to imitate a real dps class.

i like to play around with different things too like the choker and end strength ability but it's never a long term thing because at the end of the day i still have to remember i'm a tank and if i die then i'll have a handful of unhappy people asking me [Removed for Content] i was doing. i'm not saying it doesn't work, i'm just saying its a bad suggestion for anyone who bothers to ask the question in the first place.

[Airbornee]

If you die even while dw then you either put it on during too hard of a fight(know your mobs!!), you were already in the red, or your healers suck.

 My healers have said that its almost 0 change compared to me tanking in the harbinger.. and adrenaline makes it even better.  Either way if you don't like it.. play the way you do like.  Some people can make some specs shine where others could only dream.  I think you do alot better than I do with buckler.. and it looks like I might be doing a little better than you do with DW.  Just have fun man.

[LygerT]

but i'm not talking about us, i'm answering in regard to new zerkers(who started this thread) who probably won't be having the best healers or the best fabled endgame gear, duel wield is something you have to work into, not start out with. yes, we start out dual wielding but its hardly optimal after you start getting AAs to put into stamina, then it is only optimal if you can self buff 75% or more double attack while dual wielding while having haste and dps mods capped.

[Airbornee]

Fair enough.. I'll admit I only jumped in to make sure they knew that it didn't need to be completely ruled out forever.  It CAN be very viable.. but if you can't get into VP and get the only 2 real weapons that match up with our mythical.. don't even bother with it at all.

[Slayer505]

Airbornee@Crushbone wrote:

Fair enough.. I'll admit I only jumped in to make sure they knew that it didn't need to be completely ruled out forever.  It CAN be very viable.. but if you can't get into VP and get the only 2 real weapons that match up with our mythical.. don't even bother with it at all.

Just out of curiosity since dual wielding would not really be an option for me... which weapons are you referring to?  I'm guessing Hammer of Swirling Constellations and what.... Ekron's Blade?  Those are the only two with 3.0 delay that I can see.

[LygerT]

i doubt you would want to give up the crit and procs from our mythical, a secondary 3.0 delay weapon would match the dragons tempers 4.0 delay after its speed reduction in the offhand to time CAs(if you even are).

one thing i noticed while dual wielding is if your weapons speeds are slightly off then spamming your CAs will only hurt your DPS, even if you have them matched you can't go overboard with them because their timing apart is almost never 100% equal.

[Slayer505]

Hmm.. I thought dual wielding slowed the delay on both weapons.  It only slows the main hand?  If so then yea, I guess a 4.0 delay would be what you want.  But yeah, there's not any weapon in the game right now that I'd swap out my Mythical for.

[Airbornee]

Yeah I was referring to Ekron's Blade and the Hammer of Swirling Constellations.

 I use my Dragon's Temper in the mainhand with my Hammer of Swirling Constellations in offhand.  When hasted, etc, BOTH my weapons hit at the exact same time, which is either 2.2 or 1.8 seconds or something.  Not sure entirely what you're going on about Lyger, tbh its a tad confusing.  I'm not sure if you're saying that our mythical has a 4.0 second speed and so a reduced speed 3.0 second weapon will then match it, or...  if its a typo or what..?

 Yes you have to time your CA's rather than spam them.. but I find a simple spam 2 CA's, pause, rinse repeat, works very well.

[Xalmat]

If you really want to see the difference, parse them on the training wall.My guild guardian did just that, and between wielding his mythical + whatever weapon in a dual wield spec, and mythical in a buckler spec, the difference was negligible enough to not be worth mentioning. You might have a slight edge against buckler spec with dual wielding, especially with higher +Double Attack, but you sacrifice a lot of survivability to do so.

[Airbornee]

Well yeah self buffed its a very very small improvement.. I'm at 19% DA self, 26% with pot and temporary adorn.  It still PWNS when my jewel of animosity procs, but you can't rely on that to be consistant.

 But.. it shines extremely well even if you're just in a group with a bard.. the 10% added DA goes a long way.  Add onto that either another bard(rare but has happened) or a mystic's temp proc, and it goes up even further.  In my case I have a dirge and a mystic.. so generally I roll with 55-60% DA up for a good portion of the time.. with spikes to over 80% DA when procs go off.

 In the rare case I get a dirge, mystic, and an illus(the 10% groupwide from mythical)... my dps soars.

 You do lose survivability... but you're all making it out to more than it really is.  If by survivability you mean do I get hit more? then yes I lost some.  But if you mean do I die now? No.. I haven't died once while DW unless I do something stupid that I deserved to die.  I had lengthy conversations with my healers and they have told me that its not hard at all to heal me while I'm DWing.. in fact they like it because normally they fall asleep because its so boring.

 Its okay I don't need to convince you all of the greatness of DW... I'll keep it for myself and enjoy the parses. 

 Peace out.  -Airbornee