What about Zerkers without the Mythical Epic.

[Gisallo]

Does anyone feel it odd that they are trying to fix a class primarily by adjuments to the Epic?

I'll admit I am a bit of a Zerker neophyte (mine is only lvl 54) but this is what I see.  Zerkers were at one point supposed to be viable MT, at least in groups.  This being said Guardians are tougher than Zerkers, have an easier time getting and holding aggro and now dps almost as high as Zerkers.

Now it looks like Zerks will have some sort of snap aggro ability, but if I read things right it only applies when you have your epic, and this only addresses one balance issue.  Hopefully it is true snap aggro and doesn't create a situation where we swipe aggro from the MT or we can have issues, time will tell.  Ultimately though it looks like one Zerker issue is fixed, but only when you get to 80 and only if you manage to have the time and support to get your Mythical, not Fabled, Epic.  So basically only 10% of the class will see even a partial fix of the class, or am I missing something?   

[Obadiah]

It's a band-aid, to be sure. But I also don't think said snap-aggro is even remotely an issue unless you're raiding. Nor does the general class imbalance stand out so much until then.

[Gisallo]

Okay, that makes sense.  I raid, but when I raid its currently T1 and T2 with a Ranger (I know glutton for punishment) so I wasn't sure.  I have noticed in groups that the healers are spending far more time keeping me standing than Guardians.  I guess thats what annoys me the most.  If I was helping to burn down the mob faster in relation to the Guardians tougher skin I wouldn't be as annoyed, and dps is something I know how to do.

[LygerT]

yes, snap aggro was never really needed in T7, in T8 with all the control effects that mobs have now it is something we couldn't put off any longer.

[DasanW]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

yes, snap aggro was never really needed in T7, in T8 with all the control effects that mobs have now it is something we couldn't put off any longer.

So attach a snap agro ability to our wepon in which we have to kill Leviathan (T3), Thugga (T1), and Ashenclaw (T4)? So those of us, who are casual raiders and working T1/T2 are left out?  I understand this is changes to the Mythical, however this change needs to be on the Fabled!

[Bremer]

5 positions every 3 minutes (or 2.4 minutes) is hardly better than Rescue, so without Mythical you will have almost the same snap aggro ability as with...

[Elanjar]

Pretty sure its less than 10% of the zerker's that have their mythical but thats beside the point. 1. I'm not a hardcore raider but I do raid. 2. I'm on a pvp server which means the chances I'll get my mythical before the lvl cap is 90 are slim.Right now the raids i'm running are mostly the high KOS stuff and the EOF stuff. Snap agro is not a huge deal in most of those places but there are times where I need to grab up a mob and i hit rescue and guess what all the healers still die. And thats just right now. Once my raid force has geared up were going to start on the ROK stuff and its just gonna get worse.I'm happy the zerkers are getting a little love but it wish the love was directed at more then single digit percentages of the population. All the fixes to the class are on gear that requires you to be able to take VP. What about for all of us that can't go there?

[LygerT]

Dasan@Najena wrote:

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

yes, snap aggro was never really needed in T7, in T8 with all the control effects that mobs have now it is something we couldn't put off any longer.

So attach a snap agro ability to our wepon in which we have to kill Leviathan (T3), Thugga (T1), and Ashenclaw (T4)? So those of us, who are casual raiders and working T1/T2 are left out?  I understand this is changes to the Mythical, however this change needs to be on the Fabled!

it would help for Tiariza and overking, thats about it, the rest is for avatars or just another single target snap aggro.

[DasanW]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

Dasan@Najena wrote:

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

yes, snap aggro was never really needed in T7, in T8 with all the control effects that mobs have now it is something we couldn't put off any longer.

So attach a snap agro ability to our wepon in which we have to kill Leviathan (T3), Thugga (T1), and Ashenclaw (T4)? So those of us, who are casual raiders and working T1/T2 are left out?  I understand this is changes to the Mythical, however this change needs to be on the Fabled!

it would help for Tiariza and overking, thats about it, the rest is for avatars or just another single target snap aggro.

I disagree.  The more I think about it, I would even say that the positional increse should be attached to the CA, and not an added ability on the mythical. 

[LygerT]

be careful what you wish for, if that is the case you would never be able to use gibe at all in some situations.

[DasanW]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

be careful what you wish for, if that is the case you would never be able to use gibe at all in some situations.

Its not about the Gibe, its about the positional hate.  Take into consideration what they are proposing, that is attaching the positional portion on our Mythical, provides the benifit to less than 10% of the entire zerker population, and then to less than 1% of the entire areas of the game.  We, the zerker community (you included) have asked for a positional hate tool for how long? And through what expansions?  I know I have had the need for a very long time, now when it seems SOE sees the issue, the fix is unattainable for the majority of the class. Another thought, how many times is Gibe unuseable now due to the 10% radius incease in AA for fear of pulling mobs from outside the fight?  Ideally, it would be attached to war pledge which aleady has a hate increase but not enough to do much as well as a weak melee CA.  Increase the reuse, increase the CA and attach a positional increaser.

[Elanjar]

I'd like to see gut roar become a positional hate tool. it would make a useless aa tree useful. and give a larger percentage of the class access to it. plus then the devs dont have to go changing up the classes abilities since I imagine that is a much larger hassle. (IE why they are fixing us via gear)

[Bremer]

Don't know why people think this is a fix for the class. Every other fighter class has either a "instant place 1 on hate list" spell or shorttime 100 % proc that brings you up for every hit and all are on lower timer than Insolence.If you think this is a snap aggro fix don't wonder if Aerlika will come here soon and announce that Beserkers will also get a awesome new spell with lvl 25 that increases hate position by 3...

[Gisallo]

I don't know.  Maybe its just me but I think all of this goes beyond snap aggro and when you need it when it comes to our class.  When I tank I need more healing than a guardian but I now longer have a clear DPS advantage over a guardian to makie up for it, nor does out "regeneration" make up for it clearly else my health wouldn't be dropping.  This was with me being in the regen boost part of the Zerker tree even so I speced out of it to get a little better dps.

On top of that I watch my Power go through the  floor while tanking big things.  Heck I sometimes go through more power than a Fury who is healing and nuking, thats a freakin achievement.  Again this does not happen with guardians.

Can I do my job?  Yeah I can.  But grouping and raiding is all about power management/efficiency.  Now My Zerker is in a new guild where it appears I am the only game in town currently at my Tier so when the guild needs a tank in that tier they will often ask me, unless one of the higher ups isn't tied up and doesn't mind mentoring down.  If not for that dynamic though I'll be entirely honest, I would expect them to bring a Guardian along and if I was there be relegated to dps in group.  I haven't seen them raid yet, but I would expect looking at the break down that a Pally would be first choice for OT for the same power management reasons.

I just think that Snap aggro is an issue that only comes around come end game raiding, that it is only 1 of a number of issues that need to be addressed AND it is insane to only address it for the vast minority of the Population that will ever see it.  Aeralik has again changed 1 small thing and then tried to sell it like its the panacea so that he can say he has done his job, between bouts of making sure that Assassins are top of the parse and have the coolest gear.

[Ep]

GrandMasterUb wrote:

Pretty sure its less than 10% of the zerker's that have their mythical but thats beside the point. 1. I'm not a hardcore raider but I do raid. 2. I'm on a pvp server which means the chances I'll get my mythical before the lvl cap is 90 are slim.Right now the raids i'm running are mostly the high KOS stuff and the EOF stuff. Snap agro is not a huge deal in most of those places but there are times where I need to grab up a mob and i hit rescue and guess what all the healers still die. And thats just right now. Once my raid force has geared up were going to start on the ROK stuff and its just gonna get worse.I'm happy the zerkers are getting a little love but it wish the love was directed at more then single digit percentages of the population. All the fixes to the class are on gear that requires you to be able to take VP. What about for all of us that can't go there?

very rudamentary math assumptions here25servers,lets say at most there are 4guilds that can clear vp per server, lets say some servers even have only 1, so an avg of 3 vp clearing guilds per server(to be safe)thats about only 75 mythical wielding zerkers, maybe 90 if some guilds have 2 zerker mains for some reason, maybe 110-120 counting zerker alts in those guilds maybe 150-160 counting ppl who have paid other guilds to get them their mythicals. (this probably holds true for most any fighter class tbh, you can substitute zerker for guard/pally/sk/monk/bruiser and it'd prolly work as well).are you suggesting there are only 1600 zerkers that are lvl 80? i would guess that the percentage is more in line w/ 1%

[Elanjar]

Auron@Befallen wrote:

GrandMasterUb wrote:

Pretty sure its less than 10% of the zerker's that have their mythical but thats beside the point. 1. I'm not a hardcore raider but I do raid. 2. I'm on a pvp server which means the chances I'll get my mythical before the lvl cap is 90 are slim.Right now the raids i'm running are mostly the high KOS stuff and the EOF stuff. Snap agro is not a huge deal in most of those places but there are times where I need to grab up a mob and i hit rescue and guess what all the healers still die. And thats just right now. Once my raid force has geared up were going to start on the ROK stuff and its just gonna get worse.I'm happy the zerkers are getting a little love but it wish the love was directed at more then single digit percentages of the population. All the fixes to the class are on gear that requires you to be able to take VP. What about for all of us that can't go there?

very rudamentary math assumptions here25servers,lets say at most there are 4guilds that can clear vp per server, lets say some servers even have only 1, so an avg of 3 vp clearing guilds per server(to be safe)thats about only 75 mythical wielding zerkers, maybe 90 if some guilds have 2 zerker mains for some reason, maybe 110-120 counting zerker alts in those guilds maybe 150-160 counting ppl who have paid other guilds to get them their mythicals. (this probably holds true for most any fighter class tbh, you can substitute zerker for guard/pally/sk/monk/bruiser and it'd prolly work as well).are you suggesting there are only 1600 zerkers that are lvl 80? i would guess that the percentage is more in line w/ 1%

...I'm pretty sure thats waht I said?? Anway thats not even counting the zerkers that are NOT lvl 80. Zerkers have issues including snap agro from pretty much 50 on up.

[Ashmoda]

While I am not at all opposed to the snap agro being tied to something that would not require the obtention of the Mythical epic weapon, I cannot think of any situation where the snap agro would be required outside of high-end raiding with a very skilled raid force putting out extreme DPS, or on mobs with loads of control effects, which is almost solely end-game mobs.Classes are put under the microscope and under much more harsh scrutiny in endgame raiding situations, where raid and guild leaders tend to min/max their set of classes and available abilities as much as possible, and the content is much harder.  I am pretty sure that running T1-T2 and Runnyeye 2 would find you with very little need for 5 hate positions on Insolence.Auron:   Are you suggesting that there are 16000 level 80 berserkers?   I think that, actually, 1600 is quite a realistic figure.  Yes, actually there are only 1600 or so level 80 berserkers world-wide, that figure is pretty exact: I saw a recent data mining attempt which trawled eq2players and posted the breakdown of level 80 characters by class, and the rarest was Coercer with 500-600 or so, and the most popular were Guardians, Furies, and something else, with 2400-2800 or so.  Berserkers fell right around your listed figure, with 1500-1700 or somewhere therein.  There aren't hundreds of thousands of level 80 EQ2 players here, sir.  Just clarifying

[ZerkerDwarf]

Having to cast an OPEN ae taunt is not that usefull when you want to snap aggro of your current target? Am I missing something?

Probably 95% of all berserkers world wide do not have the mythical epic. The stupid hp reg should have been transformed into a usefull spell/buff for survivability or snapping aggro.

[LygerT]

i'll say it how i see it...

1) reinforcement is decent, but do we really need that sort of ability? we don't have anything to back it up so if you need a reinforcement type of ability for 10, maybe 20 seconds, you will still be having aggro issues in the downtimes between when it is up. that solves nothing.

2) zerks are fine tanks up until about T3 and beyond, where mobs can wipe the floor with us like a mop. BUT, this has been no real different than it ever was in the past, maybe a little more challenging now because the hits are slightly harder but this was never an easymode class to main tank.

3) we're an AE tank, why wouldn't an AE snap aggro suit us? again, not going to argue what snap aggro means because obviously it means different things to different people.

4) we still are one of the most promising plate tanks, regardless of what anyone may come and claim that a swashy can tank better than us, or a pally has better survivability, those are completely false. what it boils down to is we all need to play our class to the fullest to show those people wrong.

i don't know why we continue to argue, we are stuck with what we have so you work with what you are given. instead of saying the class is "broken" why not try to figure out how to play it like several others have, make your raid learn with you and try to have a little pride in the process.

[Bremer]

Reinforcement also procs on AEs, so Beserk-Reinforment + one of our 3 AEs = open/closed AE hate, but you could controll a lot better on which mobs you get hate positions. In terms of tanking the only thing that puts us ahed of SKs is DPS, if we were doing less DPS our class would be in the same state like the SK class. I wouldn't call that very promising. It doesn't seem like we can expect some fixes soon, let's see how this tank changed is supposed to work that should put non-Guards closer to Guard defense and afterwards what will be Aeralik plans to replace tank DPS with taunt hate, when most of the DPS comes from autoattack and not CAs

[JerronBlacksilver]

Okay, I've avoided comment in this thread for a while, but I've hammered out an opinion, and here's how I see it:The initial question asked was "Does anyone feel it odd that they are trying to fix a class primarily by adjuments to the Epic?"Now I'm no pro 'zerker (My main is a Dirge, but my Zerker is 80 and has his fabled epic, and has successfully tanked all heroic content excepting RE2, which I haven't tried yet-check him out here) but really, the (overstated) issues that zerkers have only become prominent in end game raiding. That being the case, it doesn't seem that odd to have some class issues addressed through the mythical epic. I know this idea has been stated previously in the thread, but this is a bit of an extended /signed.And when I'm Dirging, I'd rather have a Zerker tank any day, Guardians are just too careful, and therefore not as much fun (Also, Zerkers tend to need Hyran's less often!)

[LygerT]

Bremer wrote:

Reinforcement also procs on AEs, so Beserk-Reinforment + one of our 3 AEs = open/closed AE hate, but you could controll a lot better on which mobs you get hate positions.In terms of tanking the only thing that puts us ahed of SKs is DPS, if we were doing less DPS our class would be in the same state like the SK class. I wouldn't call that very promising.It doesn't seem like we can expect some fixes soon, let's see how this tank changed is supposed to work that should put non-Guards closer to Guard defense and afterwards what will be Aeralik plans to replace tank DPS with taunt hate, when most of the DPS comes from autoattack and not CAs

i really don't know why you remain a zerk, everything you seem to want is on the guardian side.

[Bremer]

My personal choice. If you just want snap aggro, why do still play a Zerker?