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07-08-2008, 04:34 AM
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#1 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 505
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Since Aeralik has pointed out that some classes have not updated their bugs/issues thread in a very long time, I am attempting to bring the warden one up to date, so we can get some much needed attention. Bugs Tranquility Line The heal on Tranquility is being treated like a HoT, and all +heal mods are only applied to the first heal. This needs to be fixed as +heal should apply to all the heal triggers. Warden Cure AA end line ability Shatter Infection does not trigger as stated. It should trigger a cure all once any group member drop below 50% health, but in its current state it does nothing. The entire Warden cure AA line needs to be reworked. I recommend making the Shatter Infection end line ability change the Tranquility line into a group wide spell. I also suggest that any cure bonuses apply to Tranquility as well as our single target cures. Faery Ally The Faery currently gets stuck on attempting to heal dead people. This is particularly annoying during raids.Another thing I have noticed is that the Faery will waste time trying to move to the person with the lowest hps, cutting down the amount of healing it does. I suggest that the Faery heal becomes zonewide, so the Faery does not actually have to move about. Mythical weapon The stoneskin clicky buff expires after 3 hits. It should last 12 seconds. The stoneskin effect drops once the Infuriating Thorns damage shield procs 3x. Clicky buff cannot be cast on the warden themselves Cast time on Clicky needs to be 1 second or insta cast as it is a save that you use in an emergency, making the current cast time too long AE Root agility debuff Since the agility debuff is on our AE root line, we cannot use this ability on epic mobs. Please allow wardens to cast the root on epic mobs and just allow the debuff portion to apply. Spore heal proc line The warden 2 set VP bonus increases the proc chance on our Spores heal line. The problem is we currently have an AA line which also does this, and Spores proc chance is capped at 16%. The VP 2 set bonus is currently wasted as we cannot go over the max proc rate. Suggest that the VP set bonus be changed to increasing the heal amount on Spores instead. Healing GroveThe tree dies from AEs and is therefore very limited in application. Please make the tree AE immune. The size of the tree is also a problem in a raid setting. Please give wardens the option to reduce it to shrub size, even if it is via a fun spell of some sort. The tree heal should also be made raidwide. Tunare's Watch The spell somehow missed a T8 upgrade. Please allow it to scale with level like our emergency heals if there are no upgrades intended for it. Nature's Renewal The second deathsave trigger does not appear to be healing for the correct amount, and is not taking +heal into account. Furthermore there is some indication that it is actually healing for below the minimum non modified value of the spell on the second death save trigger. Nature's Pack The wolf pack should be treated as a dot and not a dumbfire. Having the wolves die instantly on AE, or on a mobs damage shield is just not worth the power cost of casting this spell during a raid. End game viability The main problem wardens face is a lack of end game raid viability due to buff issues. Please refer to this thread for a more detailed discussion as to why this is so. http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=421872 Suggestions for buff fixes: Sandstorm line: Lack of usefulness on raids due to defence being capped/diminishing returns and the secondary kb/stun not being applicable to epic mobs.Suggestions for a fix are to change the buff to +parry/block, which is uncontested avoidance and will always be useful in a raid setting. Thorns/Damage shield. The damage provided by thorns is minimal and only applies to one mob. Suggest that this buff be changed to add a hate/dps modifier. Increase haste of target by 20. Hate gain by 10. Another option is to have thorns reflect damage based on a fixed percentage of what the mob is attacking for. Something like 10% of any melee hit is reflected back on the mob. Armour of the seasons. Buffing a measly 300 to all resists is hardly useful given diminishing returns. Compare the secondary effect of the warden mit buff to defilers who get a 600hp regenerating magical ward, or templars who get +groupwide hps, and it certainly does not stack up. Suggest that this changes to increases the effect of worn armour by 10% for the entire group. Aspect of the Hawk Wis/power once again has limited usefulness in end game raiding, given that power pool size and resists mean very little. Suggest this changes to a wis/str/power buff, which at least gives melee wardens some better suited buffs. Instinct. Without the VP set bonus, this buff has very little application, due to +skills being subject to diminishing returns, and orange con epic mobs ignoring player skill stats. The VP set bonus is definitely a start to improving this buff, but it is still limited in that the warden can only apply it to one person. Suggest making this buff a conc slot buff, so the warden can choose to buff multiple people. VP set discussion 2 set bonus is currently not useful due to the proc cap on spores (see above)4 set Good6 set Good The one thing wardens request is for the +heal on the pants being moved to the BP, and the BP effect moved to the legs. The reason being is that most wardens would prefer to equip the Abomination Leggings from Leviathan in the leg slot, which means we then give up the extra healing the set legs provide. Moving the healing bonus to the BP gives wardens more flexibility, as we can then equip a pure healing set, or a dps set.
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07-08-2008, 05:47 AM
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#2 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,727
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-- Edit: Elyssa is keeping a running tally of salient issues suggested in the rest of this thread in the post above...(FYI) --- Awesome post, Elyssa, thank you. Here are a couple of my thoughts: If Nature's Walk is spec'd and the buff is applied, no cure should ever remove a 'root' effect. Those should just be ignored and should never 'land' as a DoT on any group member, correct? (ie, if I have it spec'd and applied I don't want to spend a moment of time 'curing' something that isn't there.) T8 Nature's Pack (at least in adept 3) die as easily as the tree to AoE with mobs over about level 80. Please fix them to be more durable since they are the visual manifestation of a DoT, not a pet. An AoE shouldn't destroy them, a cure possibly might? The reuse timer on Nature's Renewal is not accurate if spec'd with max Reformation line AA's, it's not reduced. (Tunare's Watch, however, seems to work as promised) There is nowhere (except the promise of the Reformation AA) that states that 2 triggers of either death intervention will happen, and I am not convinced that those 2 promised triggers consistently happen. (yeah, yeah, no empirical data...just 'seems like' (which is over half your player base, btw ::grin:: ) ) Cures are (as stated above) a problem. AAs support the old cure setup (4 cure 'types' Agree - I've never seen Shatter Infections actually work, and I do use it often to see what situational thing I might be missing, or if it truly doesn't work. I second Elyssa's request to either let Tunare's Watch scale like our emergency heals (/sigh...there goes a hard-won M1 of it), or an update to the ability. Also Seconding Elyssa's request to allow the debuff portion of our roots to be used on epic mobs. I absolutely support the "end game viability" section in the above post. Please give us some raid usefulness, since at this stage of the game's development and content, it's an important activity to many players. No one wants anyone to lose anything - we'd just like to be brought up to par with the raid usefulness of other healers. If you think that the usefulness is there and nothing needs to be added or changed, I'd like to point out that min/maxing raid leaders don't agree - and they often see things in player classes that developers either didn't notice or didnt' think of. We need to bring more to the table than minorly useful group buffs, argueably useful single target buffs and heals that are counted 'last' by game mechanics. |
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07-08-2008, 08:11 AM
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 17
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This really needs a sticky!!!
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07-08-2008, 09:46 AM
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#4 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,554
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The DI double trigger is reflected in the effects list. If you look at it, the spell will say:When target dies this spell will cast Nature's Touch on target. Lasts for 24.0 seconds. When target dies this spell will cast Nature's Touch on target. Lasts for 24.0 seconds
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07-08-2008, 09:50 AM
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#5 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,554
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Actually looking at my heal numbers there, the spell's healing for LESS than its original value because that's a m1 spell so the original should be in the 800s, not the 600s. So I have no clue what's going on with it but something's definately messed up imo.
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07-08-2008, 12:37 PM
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#6 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,441
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Nice post. One thing added is that our ability to do damage and the equipment to support the CA line is too far below the other druid. Some druids may not care but as one that plays all 3 play styles, I should be able do to a druids damage and not be out damaged in a group or solo by any other healer class then a fury (when not much healing is required). Even with using our fast small nukes we do subpar damage if int specced. That is not a big issue to wardens that only raid/nuke and dont want to do anything else but for the rest of the wardens it is probably more important to contibute something worthwhile to their group when the group is mowing down trash and not much if any healing is required, especially if their are 2 healers in the group and the tank is well geared.
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07-08-2008, 02:20 PM
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#7 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,554
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I was actually just thinking about the itemization issue today at work (cuz pulling weeds is SOO brain-intensive =x). I came up with an interesting idea for a fix to it; what if we had an AA (or even add it onto an existing AA) that made it so that any int/spell damage/spell crit on gear that we equipped was converted into its melee counterpart? Even go further and make that AA be a toggle buff so that if you NEED to nuke for whatever reason, you're not stuck with baseline damage. Seems like an easier fix than making druid gear for both specs.
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07-08-2008, 05:29 PM
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#8 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,727
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Dragonrealms wrote:
Actually looking at my heal numbers there, the spell's healing for LESS than its original value because that's a m1 spell so the original should be in the 800s, not the 600s. So I have no clue what's going on with it but something's definately messed up imo. Thanks for checking it out Ryala - all I know is: It's not working the way the AA's say it should...it 'seemed like' the second trigger wasn't working, but with your data, the reality is: yes, it's triggering, but for not as much as it should. I'll buy that |
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07-09-2008, 05:48 AM
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#9 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 505
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Have modified the post to incorporate Ryala's data on the seond death save trigger and Arielle's suggestion on the wolf pack.
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07-09-2008, 04:45 PM
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#10 |
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General
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 12
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Thanks for taking this on Elyssa. I'm not sure how much I have to add, but here I go.I need to go back and pull out my numbers, but it appears that several of our spells are not getting the full benefit of +heals at least if the numbers in the "knowledge" book are refelecting what's actually getting healed (which is hard to tell in a controlled experiment especially with any meaningful crit rate). When I get home tonight I'll dig up my notes and post them. Might be happening to other classes as well, but I only have the char/gear to speak for us.As for Tranquility, while I like the idea behind what they did, I personally don't find it terribly useful in a raid setting. Solo'ers and Group Healers might find it more useful, but in a raid setting healers have "whack-a-cure" beat into them at an early age. The amount of time I can get Tranquility off prior to someone else curing is rare unless everyone is frantically healing to patch up wards or reactives. For the same reason the every 15 seconds is nice, but doesn't do as much in my situation. Don't get me wrong, I always have it up on the MT, you play every card in the deck, but with the cure all change I feel it has lost a bit of usefullness.If AA's were revaluated I'd much rather see it shorten the casting time so we can get it off as fast as a standard cure. But that's just me. Regardless, the entire Cure Line needs to be reevaluated in my humble opinion.
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07-09-2008, 07:21 PM
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#11 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,554
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Tuple wrote:
If AA's were revaluated I'd much rather see it shorten the casting time so we can get it off as fast a standard cure. But that's just me. Regardless, the entire Cure Line needs to be reevaluated in my humble opinion.This! I honestly don't see the point of having tranquility's recast time reduced by any less than 30s and even then.. meh. The effect lasts as long as the duration so really there's no reason to give it a lesser recast imo. Would be much better to have its cast time reduced to make it more valuable as an actual cure. And the cure tree REALLY needs redoing.. even if the tranquility AA was changed for reduced cast time, I still don't think I'd get it just because the only access to it is through the cures and those AAs just aren't worth the investment at all. |
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07-09-2008, 08:04 PM
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#12 |
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General
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 12
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Bah, looks like my file got deleted in a fit of overzealous cleaning. I'll start reconstructing, but if I remember correctly some of our single targets were fine, none of our group targets were not (and that's taking into account the divide by 3 not 2 rule) and our "special" heals (Tranquility, DI, Hierophantic Prov, Emergency Heals) were all over the board.
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07-09-2008, 08:11 PM
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#13 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,552
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Dragonrealms wrote:
Tuple wrote:Tuple said cast time. Not recast. I agree with Tuple. Tranquility's long cast time means I can't get the full benifit from this spell if I'm in a group with another healer. So far the only thing its been good for is casting it on me when I know we're fighting mobs that group stiffle.If AA's were revaluated I'd much rather see it shorten the casting time so we can get it off as fast a standard cure. But that's just me. Regardless, the entire Cure Line needs to be reevaluated in my humble opinion.This! I honestly don't see the point of having tranquility's recast time reduced by any less than 30s and even then.. meh. The effect lasts as long as the duration so really there's no reason to give it a lesser recast imo. Would be much better to have its cast time reduced to make it more valuable as an actual cure. And the cure tree REALLY needs redoing.. even if the tranquility AA was changed for reduced cast time, I still don't think I'd get it just because the only access to it is through the cures and those AAs just aren't worth the investment at all. |
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07-09-2008, 09:05 PM
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#14 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,554
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yes he said cast time.. and I agree that cast time reduction is what's needed. What I was saying is that they need to change the current AA that reduces the REcast time and make it reduce cast time instead.
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07-17-2008, 10:52 PM
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#15 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 505
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Tranquility/Purity is a strange one. I think they originally made it a 1.5 second cast due to it removing 4 effects at once, but now that all priests can do that, it should drop to a 1 second cast time. There is also another problem with the Tranquility line. You cast it and then cannot cast it again for 1 min (45 secs if AA specced). Of course it is then going to tick every 15 seconds during that minute, but since detrimentals randomly hit, you cannot guarantee that the cure is going to tick at exactly the right time to be effective. In fact it's a 1 in 15 chance that it will, which is rather tiny. The majority of the time it is just wasted as you cannot afford to wait for it to cure. I have even tested it out on the drakes in VP. I put it on myself and stood in range to get hit with the trauma stun. Purity rarely ticked in time to clear the trauma before it dropped off on its own. I believe the main issue is that a 15 second interval is just too long. I think it needs to be a 10 second window. That is still going to mean that there is only a 1 in 10 chance that it is going to tick at the right time, but I think it will improve the spell from its current state. I have also seen the changes to the Inquisitor mythical clicky. They get group wide Tranquility (cure+heal) that they can cast every 15 seconds. Whenever they choose to.
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07-23-2008, 06:14 PM
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#16 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 545
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Just change tranquillity so that it has 4 ticks. Anytime an effect is on the target, within the 1 minute duration, as long as ticks are available, it will proc, removing the effect(s) and healing. Then you could keep the AAs in tranquillity as they are- the reuse would actually be useful, and it wouldn't matter as much if other healers cure before you finish casting...tranquillity will be up and it's guaranteed to proc next time the target gets an effect on them. |
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08-12-2008, 04:11 PM
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#17 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,441
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If making the Faerie not target dead group/raid members is too hard to fix, they could just make it give a 30% health and power rez. EDIT: Since its been stickied, its obvious that a Forum mod seen the thread, too bad we will never know if a dev who can fix our problems has actually seen it like the other classes got responses from.
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08-12-2008, 11:02 PM
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#18 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 505
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How hard is it to make sure that negative hitpoints or hp values less than 0 are ignored by the Faery. Yes that will mean that people on unconsious health are not healed, but I will take that anyday over the useless camping of dead toons.
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08-24-2008, 12:34 PM
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#19 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 59
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I sort of reminesce about the old Nature's walk AA ability. I think the ol' Knockback protection can be far more useful than root immunity. Even if it only reduces the KB distance a significant percentage but, then why can't it do it both. My understanding at the time this was changed was because of PVP balance issues. Imagine the drakes in VP as an example no crazy long pulls or booting from the bridge the warden's group can stand toe to toe and stick to that mob while other groups have to line up and hope they don't get knocked in a bad direction. Just a thought. It's a great list of issues though. I tend to feel that way with alot of them (especially the messed up AA abilities we seem to have atm) I've often wondered as well did Tort shell suffer some serious typo when it was created when you look at other AE immunity abilities they have superior effect range and don't sacrifice the ability to cast while in effect. |
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09-05-2008, 04:14 PM
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#20 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,441
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tendo2 wrote:
They were probably worried about overpowering fury's and the effects on wardens were just collateral damage and wardens are expendable anyway, or at least that is what it seems like
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10-17-2008, 04:48 AM
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#21 |
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Server: Storms
Guild: Eternitalis
Rank: Cavalier
Loremaster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,422
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I kind of double posted since i started a t8 newbie thread. Funny to see that my concerns are almost all shared by high end raiders. Is there anyone in charge of the warden class? I see no official answer there, do i need to roll an assassin and post a threadin the general forum about how warden are overpowered to get an immediate official answer stating that yes the nerf is coming?
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07-16-2009, 05:02 PM
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#22 |
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Developer
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 672
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I just fixed Shatter Infections to work properly and cure the person who falls below 50%. While I was at it I also factored out the dead people from the Faerie Ally script. |
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07-16-2009, 05:07 PM
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#23 |
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Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Mayhem
Rank: Officers
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Manors of Mithaniel, New Halas
Posts: 3,480
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Aeralik wrote:
Hurrah, no more Faerie Ally desperately trying to heal the corpse. It's nice that Shatter Infections will now work... for those burning all those AAs to get to it Is this going in with the reuglar tuesday hotfix, or the next GU? |
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07-16-2009, 05:28 PM
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#24 |
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Server: Guk
Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
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Lol, it only took a year.
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guk.Aule - 90 coercer | Troops of Doom | 90 bruiser - guk.Krindi |
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09-02-2009, 06:32 AM
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#25 |
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General
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 571
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Level 80 spells should be something you are excited about, they should be an asset to the class and give a feeling of achievement to reach. They should either be regularly useful, or situationally excellant. The Warden 80 spell fails on all front by my estimation. It dies almost instantly to aoe damage. Fairy should be AOE immune. It never usefully heals anyone in practise because it spends all it's time trying to decide who to start flying towards this second, and rarely actually does any healing because of constantly flying towards places it won't be needed by the time it eventually arrives. Fairy should heal zonewide while it's moving (moving faster too), moving/travelling should not prevent it from healing. It's not even worth casting to maybe heal you up while travelling while questing for example, as it's only ever flying to where you used to be never actually healing, and it doesn't do enough healing to make any real difference to success or failure in combat. Our level 80 spell isn't really much more use than a fluff pet, and it's not worth casting in combat because all our other spells are nearly always more useful.
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09-02-2009, 11:41 AM
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#26 |
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Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Mayhem
Rank: Officers
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Manors of Mithaniel, New Halas
Posts: 3,480
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snowline wrote:
I find the only times I really cast it is when I'm soloing (to let it heal while I melee) or right before pulls. Rarely ever do I feel the desire to cast it mid-fight... like you said, it spends more time running around looking for someone to heal that it seems to actually spend healing. It's AE heal on death is basically a small AE heal the first time the mob AEs, since (like you said) the faerie tends to die rather easily. |
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09-05-2009, 11:24 AM
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#27 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 32
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I agree the Cure line needs to be fixed. It should clear all harmful effects not just 1 of each type. When the Vespids pets in KJ are unleashed upon you the Nox hits add up too fast to be cured since the possible cure only clears the one nox. But you may not even get the one cure since the spell is interruptable. Dayanara and it's pet's do the mega-stacking of Nox as well. Verdjious Journey Warden AA Line - the upgrades of Dawnstrike, Icefall Strike, Frostbite Slice, and Whirl of Permafrost all need to be on separate timers than the orignal spells; otherwise they are 20 wasted AA points just to get Force of nature. Force of nature also seems to be a complete waste since we do so little DPS. Dust cloud used to have a 10% easier to target enemy - now it's a useless identify a friend spell like Rebo's Encircling Runes. Serenity should have a recast time of 1 minute or less or be instacast when dealing with multiple Nox hits. Verdant Whisper (Enhanced Rank 5) and Expert original - All damage should be equal at 1050 or more, not split with one mitigating 530 damage and the others 1050. I also think the 3 hit's should be changed to a higher level since pet's and add's usually never come out as a group of three. Tunare's Diety Pet - Oboy, I get 16 WIS and AGI. How does this pet compare to other Diety pets? There is a bug with this pet - when you cast the Fairy healing pet your Diety pet goes away and if you try to recast your diety pet the healer goes away.
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Mosco 92 Warden/65 Sage Guk I want my Masters BACK! |
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09-06-2009, 04:52 AM
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#28 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 51
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Well shoot it wasn't mentioned so I'm posting it up here. Take a peek at Frostbite Slice (CA) and compare it to the spell Frostbite it fails in nearly every aspect. I'm used to the whole rank 5 CA vs. master spell and understand why its setup that way. The duration difference on the CA in and by itself makes it less desireable as an ability. However, to further add insult to injury the reduced duration also ended up completely removing 2 ticks of damage when comparing the two. I suggest as a solution to either extend the duration up to 24 secs but that may also require re-evualting the recast time. I'm open to extending the duration to say 18 seconds and have the ticks land every 3 seconds instead of 4. If not perhaps, boosting the Initial damage or the tick damage to make up for the missing 2 ticks. Only I feel leaving it at 4 ticks might throw off some folks expectations if they don't read carefully. Ultimately, it's your call but the 2 things that are of concern is. First, the length of the debuff duration, as well as it's relation to it's recast time. Second, the loss of the damage from the missing ticks. In any case I always thought it was fairly well known that this CA fell way short of the mark and surprised to not see any mention of it after I expressed my hopes of a Frostbite being a M2 choice in another thread (the only nuke I won't melee because this little issue.) |
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09-06-2009, 10:32 PM
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#29 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15
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BUG Tranquility not curing correctly. If I cast it on person without a effect it doesn't come-up in my maintained window so dont think it is casting on person. also if i cast it on a person with an effect it cures the first time on cast but doesnt stay up finishing its cycle. If i cast it on myself it does come up on maintained but as soon as it cures a effect it stops working. Have bugged in game
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09-07-2009, 09:04 PM
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#30 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 51
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I dunno about how well it works on other ppl but i know it does indeed fact work when casted on myself. I use this when I solo all the time. The reason you may not notice it is because you'll have to look for it in their effects window. Then the cure thing really only triggers every 15 secs so if there is nothing to cure at exactly that point it doesn't do anything. It was seldom likely an effect is on someone is still on at that exact second especially when more and more healers are thrown into the mix. If they can give this the rollover heal treatment when they change HoTs that would be beyond great. In its current form it's like hitting the lottery sometimes.
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" width="15" height="15" />, and have not changed in any way to reflect the new single 'cure all' update. Since our Aa's offer an resist to the type of damage cured, it seems backwards to be able to apply the resist AFTER the damage has occurred. True, it's preventive of the next possible dot that might land - but it also seems that this resistance isn't working for that next DoT, either. 
All I know is: it is not working as advertised, and I have a lot of AA into that line.