SK Raiding Ideas: AAs

Darkc · 05-21-2008, 05:20 PM

AAs: Some of our AAs are outdated, especially the WIS Line.

Specifics: Other Fighters get some pretty hefty bonuses from their AA Lines. You can't really justify not giving us similar melee bonuses because they're doing as much (or more) Auto Attack AND CA Damage. We're especially light in the DPS / Double Attack department. Unless there is a revamp of our spell cast times / recast / and damage (Not to mention Interupts being eliminated and more 3+ Link encounters), Auto Attack remains our main source of DPS Improvement.

Nef Caress AA - Should increase Damage done as well as taunt
Wis Line - Increase Gains, add stats that help a Crusader (DA, Block%, Riposte, Spell DA, DPS mod, etc)
Wis Line - Add extra immunities to the end ability such as Interrupt Immunity
Agi Line - Remove Horse Mount Restriction, add bonus for single target (AoE Auto attack + DA for example)
Bonuses for using 2h weapons - Though imo 2h'ers should get a DA, DPS, and Hitrate bonus just to compete with Duel Wield.

Tiberuis · 05-21-2008, 05:56 PM

Good idea to split the catagories to dedicated thread posts DarkC... SMILEY

Here are my AA Line Enhacement Ideas :

Some AA Line suggestions for helping raiding SK's :

Crusader AA Line - Wisdom Line. Add Immunity to Spell Interrupts along with the Immunity to Fear modifier, to help Crusaders and Group Members that are Casters.

Warriors don't need to worry about thier CA's constantly being interrupted, this would help to balance SK's vs. the other Plate Tank classes a bit.

Members of a Caster Group in a Raid would love this as well, making SK's slightly more attractive to Raids.

Crusader AA Line - Strength or Agility Line. Add a +Damage/+Avoidance modifier Bonus for using a 2 Handed Weapon. Like a Knight! Perfect for the SK/Crusader mythos.

Crusader AA Line - Stamina Line. Add a + Block modifier Bonus for using a Kite Shield. Like a Knight! Perfect for the SK/Crusader mythos.

These suggestions are to help balance the SK vs. the other Plate Tank classes, that all have superior tanking and DPS abilities.

HentaiB · 05-21-2008, 08:50 PM

This concerns all crusaders and should be discussed in the AA area of the forums. DO NOT LEAVE THE PALADINS OUT OF THIS.

Tiberuis · 05-22-2008, 01:00 PM

Dekeon@Guk wrote:

This concerns all crusaders and should be discussed in the AA area of the forums. DO NOT LEAVE THE PALADINS OUT OF THIS.

I agree Dekeon. I posted up my suggestions in the AA forums under 2 separate threads.

I think it is super important for Crusaders to have an AA focus that enhances our Kite Shield (like warriors have bucklers), and 2 Handed Weapon abilities.

This would especially help SK's balance up to the other Plate Tank classes a bit, and it will further solidify our core identity values as Crusading Knights.

Paladins have better defensive and aggro tanking abilites than SK's do right now, for sure, but it does not make sense to exclude then from the AA discussion, as it affects thier class as well SMILEY

Darkc · 05-22-2008, 01:31 PM

Yes, there already exists a few threads on that subject in the Achievements forums... not to mention, SKs and Paladins play very differently so what we would choose AA wise or would like changed will differ as well.

Nole · 05-23-2008, 08:17 PM

Personally I find it wrong that there should ever be a single correct answer to which AA lines should I take. In an ideal world which line is best would at least depend on playstyle even if they weren't all 100% balanced.

In this regard it looks like almost all people go 4-4-8 in int, some combination in strength, then many people go down the sta line. AGI/WIS lines need some help, and even the end of the int line needs something.

I personally think they should combine the heal and damage spell crits into a single ability that just improves spell crits, then make the 4th ability in int either a cast speed boost, damage/heal increase, or maybe a big bonus to focus (so that crusader tanks don't lose too much cast time). As our int line is set up now only pallies really want to go past the third ability. In an ideal world the crusader AAs would all benefit all crusaders.

Razlath · 05-27-2008, 02:16 PM

So I recently respecced out of the WIS line (full run to end abil 4-4-8-6-end) to the STA line.

In short, I hate it. My aggro control has gone down significantly, and my regular group has started noticing a lot more resists than previously. I am also noticing a LOT of resists. Healing seems like more of a problem too, though that might very well just be perception. Below are my thoughts on the WIS line, and what might help to improve it (I think some things could be changed, but will instead focus on improvements to what is already there).

First bubble - WIS pump, doesn't matter as much for us, so the amount given is really just the gateholder to the rest of the line (no change). Obviously it matters more to the pallies.

Second Bubble - Combat Leadership: This ability as it stands is kind of pointless. It takes you WAY longer to put the reactive buff up than it does to trigger and the damage is abysmal. This ability should gain a number of procs equal to the points invested or preferably double the points invested. Also if it does not currently do so, the dps (and thus hate) needs to be assigned to the Crusader (I will check log parses once I respec back to confirm if it does right now). Damage could stand to be increased as well, though with extra procs this might not be necessary.

Third Bubble - Battle Leadership: Simply put this one is great. I don't know if raiders care as much as they may naturally be so high in offensive abilities, but if they are not capped (if there is even a cap to + skill adds) it would be useful. This Group Buff increases all offensive skills including physical and spell casting skills by a pretty good amount. I believe it is the loss of this buff that is increasing the number of resists my normal group is seeing as it started immediately after I respecced. The resists I am getting now are causing me to slip on aggro control as well. I don't really have any suggestions for this skill, as I think it is really good the way it is. Also this one helps us if we are forced into defensive stance (ie off tanking with little to no support). With this ability you actually end up with a positive weapon skill insead of a negative even in defensive.

Fourth Bubble - Aura of Leadership: This seems kind of lack-luster when you look at it. I believe the real gains don't come with this ability until T8. The amount of health regen it directly seems a little low. However, it also contains a % in combat health regen component. With all the In-combat regen gear out there, a percent increase starts to become worth a lot more. The numbers for this ability could be reviewed I think to be sure they are in line with intentions of amount of "free" healing that is handed out, they might need to be increased, I am not sure.

Final Ability - Fearless Morale: Very nice Spell. When the big scary mob fears the group I don't go running and thus the mob doesn't eat my friends. Seems like a win-win. However, this is a raid thread, and frankly from a raid standpoint I am not sure this is too incredibly useful. I don't know how many raid mobs fear, but it seems like someone will get it cured nearly instantly even if they do. The second half of the spell adds 2% to all group damage and heals. Also a pretty weak bonus all things considered. To make it truly viable I think the crusader should be immune to fear as written, but that it should provide a 50% immunity to fear for your group as well. Full fear immunity might trivalize too many encounters and be unbalanced, but if SoE would be cool with giving the whole group full immunity I would not complain. The % increase should be raised to 5%(at least) and should applied to base damage of spells / CAs / and heals so they can benefit from an increased cap on +spell and +heal gear.

In my opinion this is the quintesential group buff line. This is the line that might just bring back a little bit of raid desireability to the class. Who wouldn't want their casters hitting better with fewer resists? Who wouldn't want their melee group proccing a reactive a few times while hitting better against those higher lvl raid mobs? Who wouldn't want whatever group they cram the SK into getting a 5% increase in everything they do? Does it alone compete with buffs other classes can bring? I am not sure, as I am not sure if those functions are easily covered by a different class. But I think those of us who are realistic are saying we are not going to MT raids often if at all. We need buffs to get a slot. Repair a few of the flaws in this line (without changing it completely or doing away with it and replacing it with something else) and you will take one more step in that direction.

This line makes your group better and more self reliant. Maybe the SKs could take thier places next to their clothy mage counterparts and actually provide something useful from there. Not only are we making everything the group does better, we are also keeping things from eating them while they do it. It seems like a natural fit for the SK on a raid if we can just get a few changes to make it really work.

I have mostly stayed out of these threads because I don't raid right now even though I really really want to. I am still trying to build our raid force up. I have been reading up on raids, and the suggestions above seem sound to provide a better raid place for SKs, but I could be way off base. Feel free to tell me so if I am. I just wanted to provide some feedback from someone who has truly used the WIS line and seen the benefits it does bring a party first hand. It is a tricky line, and looks kinda weak at first, but I promise my normal group felt it when I dropped in exchange for STA. And they complained before I went digging and fully understood the complex effects of what I had given up. The effects were noticeable even if they didn't change my place in the parse, or buff stats that show up on the front page of the Persona window.

Darkc · 05-27-2008, 02:33 PM

I agree 100% with the need of the Wis Line revamp... the only bad thing is then what do we take points out of to get the Wis Line? I love the Str, Sta, Agi (25% trample), Int (Max Crit) set-up.

Razlath · 05-27-2008, 04:52 PM

Darkc wrote:

I agree 100% with the need of the Wis Line revamp... the only bad thing is then what do we take points out of to get the Wis Line? I love the Str, Sta, Agi (25% trample), Int (Max Crit) set-up.

LOL well I will gladly be giving up my STA line for the WIS line. I wish I could get the melee crits, but I will just have to wait for the next expansion I guess and pray the increase the number of AAs we can claim on each page. To me though that is when the AA lines are balanced. When I am agonizing over which line to take that is when you know you have good lines. Right now I am not quite at that point as the only thing I really care about out of the STA line is the melee crits and I am not willing to pay an entire line for it.

If the line could be changed to be even more group buff worthy I think it would be a viable alternative for SKs who will never be getting MT raid positions too. After all, if you aren't being asked to off tank much (as I hear is the case), and you aren't main tanking you won't need the STA line for anything but melee crits for raids (please correct me if I am wrong there as I need to know). The WIS line at almost every level is making those you are grouped with better, and if we could get something like the changes proposed would be doing so at every level.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of hate to see a SK turned into a buff bot. But we won't get the MT position unless they severely overpower us. The guardians had that deal sealed day 1 just due to standard MMO prejudice. It is seriously doubtful even if they fix our DPS that we will ever touch a raid spot on DPS alone. We are going to have to have something to bring. Something we can show the raid leaders matters. I just don't see what that will be other than buffs (and some DPS once they fix us there!).

evilgamer · 06-12-2008, 10:55 AM

Agi line > Change it into a tanking AA line that requires a sheild or possibly 2 hander aa line

Wis line > change aura of leadership from +hp regen to + power regen

Razlath · 06-12-2008, 05:59 PM

evilgamer wrote:

Agi line > Change it into a tanking AA line that requires a sheild or possibly 2 hander aa line
Wis line > change aura of leadership from +hp regen to + power regen

Aura of Leadership has 2 pieces. One is a percent increase to HP regen, the other is a direct increase to HP regen. I can't see that the % increase actually does anything (my regen goes up by exactly how much the direct add says no more).

I would say make it regen both health and power. If the percent really isn't doing anything, then drop it in favor of this dual regen mode. If it is doing something, tell us what it is. ;} I wouldn't want to lose the direct health regen, but adding some power regen would make the line even more solid for what it appears to be for, buffing the spell caster group.

05-21-2008, 05:20 PM	#1
Darkc Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 89	AAs: Some of our AAs are outdated, especially the WIS Line. Specifics: Other Fighters get some pretty hefty bonuses from their AA Lines. You can't really justify not giving us similar melee bonuses because they're doing as much (or more) Auto Attack AND CA Damage. We're especially light in the DPS / Double Attack department. Unless there is a revamp of our spell cast times / recast / and damage (Not to mention Interupts being eliminated and more 3+ Link encounters), Auto Attack remains our main source of DPS Improvement. Nef Caress AA - Should increase Damage done as well as taunt Wis Line - Increase Gains, add stats that help a Crusader (DA, Block%, Riposte, Spell DA, DPS mod, etc) Wis Line - Add extra immunities to the end ability such as Interrupt Immunity Agi Line - Remove Horse Mount Restriction, add bonus for single target (AoE Auto attack + DA for example) Bonuses for using 2h weapons - Though imo 2h'ers should get a DA, DPS, and Hitrate bonus just to compete with Duel Wield. __________________ Fearlis / Darkc Conquest 90 / 300aa Templar / SK Ne Plus Ultra Guk Server

05-21-2008, 05:56 PM	#2
Tiberuis Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 205	Good idea to split the catagories to dedicated thread posts DarkC... Here are my AA Line Enhacement Ideas : Some AA Line suggestions for helping raiding SK's : Crusader AA Line - Wisdom Line. Add Immunity to Spell Interrupts along with the Immunity to Fear modifier, to help Crusaders and Group Members that are Casters. Warriors don't need to worry about thier CA's constantly being interrupted, this would help to balance SK's vs. the other Plate Tank classes a bit. Members of a Caster Group in a Raid would love this as well, making SK's slightly more attractive to Raids. Crusader AA Line - Strength or Agility Line. Add a +Damage/+Avoidance modifier Bonus for using a 2 Handed Weapon. Like a Knight! Perfect for the SK/Crusader mythos. Crusader AA Line - Stamina Line. Add a + Block modifier Bonus for using a Kite Shield. Like a Knight! Perfect for the SK/Crusader mythos. These suggestions are to help balance the SK vs. the other Plate Tank classes, that all have superior tanking and DPS abilities.

05-21-2008, 08:50 PM	#3
HentaiB General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 119	This concerns all crusaders and should be discussed in the AA area of the forums. DO NOT LEAVE THE PALADINS OUT OF THIS. __________________ The only thing you truely own is yourself.

05-22-2008, 01:00 PM	#4
Tiberuis Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 205	Dekeon@Guk wrote: This concerns all crusaders and should be discussed in the AA area of the forums. DO NOT LEAVE THE PALADINS OUT OF THIS. I agree Dekeon. I posted up my suggestions in the AA forums under 2 separate threads. I think it is super important for Crusaders to have an AA focus that enhances our Kite Shield (like warriors have bucklers), and 2 Handed Weapon abilities. This would especially help SK's balance up to the other Plate Tank classes a bit, and it will further solidify our core identity values as Crusading Knights. Paladins have better defensive and aggro tanking abilites than SK's do right now, for sure, but it does not make sense to exclude then from the AA discussion, as it affects thier class as well

05-22-2008, 01:31 PM	#5
Darkc Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 89	Yes, there already exists a few threads on that subject in the Achievements forums... not to mention, SKs and Paladins play very differently so what we would choose AA wise or would like changed will differ as well. __________________ Fearlis / Darkc Conquest 90 / 300aa Templar / SK Ne Plus Ultra Guk Server

05-23-2008, 08:17 PM	#6
Nole Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 222	Personally I find it wrong that there should ever be a single correct answer to which AA lines should I take. In an ideal world which line is best would at least depend on playstyle even if they weren't all 100% balanced. In this regard it looks like almost all people go 4-4-8 in int, some combination in strength, then many people go down the sta line. AGI/WIS lines need some help, and even the end of the int line needs something. I personally think they should combine the heal and damage spell crits into a single ability that just improves spell crits, then make the 4th ability in int either a cast speed boost, damage/heal increase, or maybe a big bonus to focus (so that crusader tanks don't lose too much cast time). As our int line is set up now only pallies really want to go past the third ability. In an ideal world the crusader AAs would all benefit all crusaders.

05-27-2008, 02:16 PM	#7
Razlath Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 444	So I recently respecced out of the WIS line (full run to end abil 4-4-8-6-end) to the STA line. In short, I hate it. My aggro control has gone down significantly, and my regular group has started noticing a lot more resists than previously. I am also noticing a LOT of resists. Healing seems like more of a problem too, though that might very well just be perception. Below are my thoughts on the WIS line, and what might help to improve it (I think some things could be changed, but will instead focus on improvements to what is already there). First bubble - WIS pump, doesn't matter as much for us, so the amount given is really just the gateholder to the rest of the line (no change). Obviously it matters more to the pallies. Second Bubble - Combat Leadership: This ability as it stands is kind of pointless. It takes you WAY longer to put the reactive buff up than it does to trigger and the damage is abysmal. This ability should gain a number of procs equal to the points invested or preferably double the points invested. Also if it does not currently do so, the dps (and thus hate) needs to be assigned to the Crusader (I will check log parses once I respec back to confirm if it does right now). Damage could stand to be increased as well, though with extra procs this might not be necessary. Third Bubble - Battle Leadership: Simply put this one is great. I don't know if raiders care as much as they may naturally be so high in offensive abilities, but if they are not capped (if there is even a cap to + skill adds) it would be useful. This Group Buff increases all offensive skills including physical and spell casting skills by a pretty good amount. I believe it is the loss of this buff that is increasing the number of resists my normal group is seeing as it started immediately after I respecced. The resists I am getting now are causing me to slip on aggro control as well. I don't really have any suggestions for this skill, as I think it is really good the way it is. Also this one helps us if we are forced into defensive stance (ie off tanking with little to no support). With this ability you actually end up with a positive weapon skill insead of a negative even in defensive. Fourth Bubble - Aura of Leadership: This seems kind of lack-luster when you look at it. I believe the real gains don't come with this ability until T8. The amount of health regen it directly seems a little low. However, it also contains a % in combat health regen component. With all the In-combat regen gear out there, a percent increase starts to become worth a lot more. The numbers for this ability could be reviewed I think to be sure they are in line with intentions of amount of "free" healing that is handed out, they might need to be increased, I am not sure. Final Ability - Fearless Morale: Very nice Spell. When the big scary mob fears the group I don't go running and thus the mob doesn't eat my friends. Seems like a win-win. However, this is a raid thread, and frankly from a raid standpoint I am not sure this is too incredibly useful. I don't know how many raid mobs fear, but it seems like someone will get it cured nearly instantly even if they do. The second half of the spell adds 2% to all group damage and heals. Also a pretty weak bonus all things considered. To make it truly viable I think the crusader should be immune to fear as written, but that it should provide a 50% immunity to fear for your group as well. Full fear immunity might trivalize too many encounters and be unbalanced, but if SoE would be cool with giving the whole group full immunity I would not complain. The % increase should be raised to 5%(at least) and should applied to base damage of spells / CAs / and heals so they can benefit from an increased cap on +spell and +heal gear. In my opinion this is the quintesential group buff line. This is the line that might just bring back a little bit of raid desireability to the class. Who wouldn't want their casters hitting better with fewer resists? Who wouldn't want their melee group proccing a reactive a few times while hitting better against those higher lvl raid mobs? Who wouldn't want whatever group they cram the SK into getting a 5% increase in everything they do? Does it alone compete with buffs other classes can bring? I am not sure, as I am not sure if those functions are easily covered by a different class. But I think those of us who are realistic are saying we are not going to MT raids often if at all. We need buffs to get a slot. Repair a few of the flaws in this line (without changing it completely or doing away with it and replacing it with something else) and you will take one more step in that direction. This line makes your group better and more self reliant. Maybe the SKs could take thier places next to their clothy mage counterparts and actually provide something useful from there. Not only are we making everything the group does better, we are also keeping things from eating them while they do it. It seems like a natural fit for the SK on a raid if we can just get a few changes to make it really work. I have mostly stayed out of these threads because I don't raid right now even though I really really want to. I am still trying to build our raid force up. I have been reading up on raids, and the suggestions above seem sound to provide a better raid place for SKs, but I could be way off base. Feel free to tell me so if I am. I just wanted to provide some feedback from someone who has truly used the WIS line and seen the benefits it does bring a party first hand. It is a tricky line, and looks kinda weak at first, but I promise my normal group felt it when I dropped in exchange for STA. And they complained before I went digging and fully understood the complex effects of what I had given up. The effects were noticeable even if they didn't change my place in the parse, or buff stats that show up on the front page of the Persona window. __________________ -Razlath Player of Dartak, Darsjach, and Darmeanglur on Nektulos Guild Leader of Fist of the Overlord (Full Content Guild)

05-27-2008, 02:33 PM	#8
Darkc Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 89	I agree 100% with the need of the Wis Line revamp... the only bad thing is then what do we take points out of to get the Wis Line? I love the Str, Sta, Agi (25% trample), Int (Max Crit) set-up. __________________ Fearlis / Darkc Conquest 90 / 300aa Templar / SK Ne Plus Ultra Guk Server

05-27-2008, 04:52 PM	#9
Razlath Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 444	Darkc wrote: I agree 100% with the need of the Wis Line revamp... the only bad thing is then what do we take points out of to get the Wis Line? I love the Str, Sta, Agi (25% trample), Int (Max Crit) set-up. LOL well I will gladly be giving up my STA line for the WIS line. I wish I could get the melee crits, but I will just have to wait for the next expansion I guess and pray the increase the number of AAs we can claim on each page. To me though that is when the AA lines are balanced. When I am agonizing over which line to take that is when you know you have good lines. Right now I am not quite at that point as the only thing I really care about out of the STA line is the melee crits and I am not willing to pay an entire line for it. If the line could be changed to be even more group buff worthy I think it would be a viable alternative for SKs who will never be getting MT raid positions too. After all, if you aren't being asked to off tank much (as I hear is the case), and you aren't main tanking you won't need the STA line for anything but melee crits for raids (please correct me if I am wrong there as I need to know). The WIS line at almost every level is making those you are grouped with better, and if we could get something like the changes proposed would be doing so at every level. Don't get me wrong, I kind of hate to see a SK turned into a buff bot. But we won't get the MT position unless they severely overpower us. The guardians had that deal sealed day 1 just due to standard MMO prejudice. It is seriously doubtful even if they fix our DPS that we will ever touch a raid spot on DPS alone. We are going to have to have something to bring. Something we can show the raid leaders matters. I just don't see what that will be other than buffs (and some DPS once they fix us there!). __________________ -Razlath Player of Dartak, Darsjach, and Darmeanglur on Nektulos Guild Leader of Fist of the Overlord (Full Content Guild)

06-12-2008, 10:55 AM	#10
evilgamer Seer Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,287	Agi line > Change it into a tanking AA line that requires a sheild or possibly 2 hander aa line Wis line > change aura of leadership from +hp regen to + power regen

06-12-2008, 05:59 PM	#11
Razlath Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 444	evilgamer wrote: Agi line > Change it into a tanking AA line that requires a sheild or possibly 2 hander aa line Wis line > change aura of leadership from +hp regen to + power regen Aura of Leadership has 2 pieces. One is a percent increase to HP regen, the other is a direct increase to HP regen. I can't see that the % increase actually does anything (my regen goes up by exactly how much the direct add says no more). I would say make it regen both health and power. If the percent really isn't doing anything, then drop it in favor of this dual regen mode. If it is doing something, tell us what it is. ;} I wouldn't want to lose the direct health regen, but adding some power regen would make the line even more solid for what it appears to be for, buffing the spell caster group. __________________ -Razlath Player of Dartak, Darsjach, and Darmeanglur on Nektulos Guild Leader of Fist of the Overlord (Full Content Guild)