Do I expect too much?

[Xaile]

First of all, let me say that I am not a ranger. I have not played a DPS class to level 80. My main is a level 80 Mystic, and I have played Swashy and Bruiser to the mid-50's.

That said, I group with a level 80 Ranger on a fairly regular basis, usually with a druid, a tank (usually berserker, sometimes sk/pally), with a couple other random DPS classes thrown in. This ranger is pretty well equipped (not raid dropped gear, but has good equip, adorned, epic bow, etc). We usually are doing instances like Chelsith, and other such similairly leveled instances.

This ranger puts out a lot of DPS in a group. He pulls aggro off of our tank on a fairly regular basis. It's a pain to keep him alive during these situations, and I've been starting to tell him he should try to rein in the DPS a bit so he wouldn't pull aggro. He does use ignorant bliss poisons (sometimes), but I don't know how often he hits his deaggro moves. The tanks we have don't have too much trouble holding aggro off the other members (once and a while, someone else will pull aggro, but not nearly as often as this one ranger).

I know he runs a parser, and I'm concerned his attention is on getting the biggest numbers on the parser, and is using bigger attacks early in the fight to maximize his parse, but I don't run a parser, so I can't say for certain.

His counter argument was that I don't play a level 80 DPS class, and that I don't know how hard it is to manage hate. So, I'm asking the ranger forums. Am I wrong to exepect a ranger not to peel aggros off the tanks in the majority of fights? Or, is managing hate for a DPS class a lot harder than I give them credit for?

[Timt]

Well without knowing his equipment and setup it's hard to be sure what the cause it. But if he's ripping aggro on a regular basis it is either:a) his fault because he is so uberb) the tanks fault for sucking so muchEither way, it's always the DPS's job to adjust their aggro so that they don't rip aggro. It might take a few encounters to adjust, but a DPS who just goes full on when the group isn't setup to cope for it is a liability.To manage aggro, he should have Ignorant Bliss poison, 2 deaggro CAs, Attack Hawk, plus Blame Arrow CA too. Oh, and there's always ghetto deaggro i.e. stop attacking Next time I'd try to run a parse and see what the numbers are. If he's pulling 1500 DPS and he's still getting aggro, then it's not his fault. You need a new tank.

[Alenna]

Xaile wrote:

First of all, let me say that I am not a ranger. I have not played a DPS class to level 80. My main is a level 80 Mystic, and I have played Swashy and Bruiser to the mid-50's.

That said, I group with a level 80 Ranger on a fairly regular basis, usually with a druid, a tank (usually berserker, sometimes sk/pally), with a couple other random DPS classes thrown in. This ranger is pretty well equipped (not raid dropped gear, but has good equip, adorned, epic bow, etc). We usually are doing instances like Chelsith, and other such similairly leveled instances.

This ranger puts out a lot of DPS in a group. He pulls aggro off of our tank on a fairly regular basis. It's a pain to keep him alive during these situations, and I've been starting to tell him he should try to rein in the DPS a bit so he wouldn't pull aggro. He does use ignorant bliss poisons (sometimes), but I don't know how often he hits his deaggro moves. The tanks we have don't have too much trouble holding aggro off the other members (once and a while, someone else will pull aggro, but not nearly as often as this one ranger).

I know he runs a parser, and I'm concerned his attention is on getting the biggest numbers on the parser, and is using bigger attacks early in the fight to maximize his parse, but I don't run a parser, so I can't say for certain.

His counter argument was that I don't play a level 80 DPS class, and that I don't know how hard it is to manage hate. So, I'm asking the ranger forums. Am I wrong to exepect a ranger not to peel aggros off the tanks in the majority of fights? Or, is managing hate for a DPS class a lot harder than I give them credit for?

As a fairly new player started last August I'd like an answer also. Having recently switched my main to be my Ranger alt(as my brother who plays with me says I think more like a ranger then a tank) I"m trying to figure out what works best. I basically am trying to keep my Ranger as more of a ranged DPS with the ability to defend herself  in melee when soloing but mostly ranged with as much damage as possible when grouping. Any help in how best to build her (I'm at level 27 now) with the achievements tree what Abilities and spells should be master or adept, best type of macros etc. I want to be an asset not hindrance to the group.

[Rodahn]

TimTim brings up some good points, although to expound on them a bit:I'd say aggro management is a 50/50 split -- half the tank's job, half the DPS's.  If you are ripping aggro that frequently and only using de-aggro poisons SOME of the time, then you are not using them enough.  Nor are you likely using your de-aggro CAs as much as you should.  There's a lovely little de-aggro maintained buff we have called Primal Agility -- get it as maxed as possible and slap it on all the time when grouped.  Also, slap the "Spy" line of CAs on if the mob starts coming to you -- if you are quick enough with it, it will be a short trip.Another suggestion may be not so much to cut back on DPS, as to spread it out.  Timing your CA attacks with your auto attack can help aggro management and DPS at the same time.But yeah, a good tank helps tremendously in that area as well.

[Balerius]

All things considered, especially in a single group setup fighting group mobs, the tank should be able to hold agro 90% of the time from a ranger.

Now this assumes:

1) The Ranger is using Ignorant Bliss poison.  If he's not, well he's just stupid and the agro issue is his fault.

2) He's using his own deagro self buff and periodically casting his hate decreasers.  If he's not, well he's just stupid and the agro issue is his fault.

3) He's not popping off a bow attack 1 nanosecond after the tank pulls, especially if the tank is body-pulling.  If he is doing that, well he's just stupid and the agro issue is his fault.

Now assuming that he is doing 1-3 correctly, if he is constantly pulling agro, then it's the tank's fault.

[Runewind]

Also noticing that you're usually having a berserker tank, that might be part of the problem. I have noticed that I never lose hate to Guardians, hardly ever lose hate to Paladins but lose hate FREQUENTLY to berserkers. Berserkers need some new hate management skills because the way that they hold hate (which is primarily through damage) is just not sufficient anymore. If your ranger friend is losing hate frequently to a guardian than it's his fault. If it's just to a berserker then it's somewhat understandable. Have him throw his hawk after he's out of stealth shots to lower his hate gain some and make sure he waits a bit for the berserker to get hate. Zerkers just aren't the tanks they used to be though, sadly.

[TeflonS7]

Gonna play devil's advocate here.  Imo, a good ranger should never be REQUIRED to use iggy bliss poisons to manage agro.  I've done my fair share of pickup groups and with many diff. types of tanks.  I fire off my dehates whenever they're up, and exercise discretion on when to start going all out aside from some minor debuffs.  Done properly a ranger will still top the parse AND stay alive in a group situation.

[Xaile]

Rodahn wrote:

I'd say aggro management is a 50/50 split -- half the tank's job, half the DPS's. 

Everyone's insight is much appreciated. That's similair to the view I've had for a long time, as a healer. I believe it's the tanks job to generate as much hate as they can, but it's also the duty of the DPS classes to try to keep their hate in line, of the capacities of the tank. After telling this specific ranger that, that's when I was fed the line that I haven't leveled a DPS class to 80.

We do usually group with a zerker or a crusader of either flavor, so that may be part of it. It seems to me that the zerker holds aggro pretty well except from the ranger, but that's coming from the view of a healer and not a DPS class. However, in the case of the wizard(s) and swashy we group with, while they do peel aggro every once and a while, it's not nearly as consistent.

He pulls aggro usually about 7-8 seconds into a fight (about long enough for me to cast Stoicism, ST Ward and Group Ward), and it's fairly regular. I wouldn't be too concerned if he wasn't so consistent about peeling aggro.

I'm going to start running my parser more so that I can see exactly how things are unraveling over the course of fights. I don't want to assume he's to blame (doing a poor job at not assuming it, though ) Perhaps it is that the tanks we have just can't quite hold aggro as well as needed.

I really do appreciate the perspective on this. Since I don't have a level 80 ranger, much less any DPS class, the insight helps me get a slightly better understanding on the mindset of the class.

[Sinful One]

If hes going all out at the start to get a high parse, its his fault. Ask him to run Bliss, Deagro and only start with low CAs and use bigger ones later in the fight. Sometimes the tanks just suck and you cant do much (Berserkers are getting to this stage unless your really well equiped)

[Amenti]

I'm a Ranger with good isntance gear and a few raid drops, and I have this problem some of the time as well.  Usually, the problem only occurs with Berserkers who have lower DPS output.  The reason is that that Berserkers don't have a Guardian's Moderate to reduce my threat-generation or a Paladin's Amends to siphon some of my hate.  Still, it's true that aggro-management is a two-way street and it's the job of the DPS and Tank to work together to manage aggro while maximizing DPS.

In order to deal with situations like that, I usually start with low damage ranged attacks then use Surveillance to drop the initial hate and execute a stealth attack (probably Fittest Survival since it's lower damage), followed by another stealth ranged attack using Coverage between auto-attacks (Stealth Fire), then my second hate-drop Elude.  That gives me a little breathing room to follow up with Blame Arrow to help the tanks threat generation, then higher damage attacks and gives time for ignorant bliss to proc a few times.  If the Ranger has a Voracious Shield of Striking or Buckler of the Howler equipped, then ripping aggro isn't a critical problem even in RoK instances, since they can drop into Defensive Stance and break 10K avoidance, light up the mob with cheap shot and point blank shot, and give the tank time to taunt it back.  A well equipped Ranger could tank VoES or CoA if he had to.

If all else fails and your Ranger is simply too much hate for the tank to handle, then he can simply switch to Fettering Poison and kite the trash mobs for the majority of fights or until the Tank can pull aggro back.

Hate transfer from an Assassin and hate increase from a Dirge or Coercer ( as well as Magnetic Note and Thought Snap ) help immensely to control aggro in group and raid settings as well.  Anyone in the group can use what tools they have at their disposal to help control the mob, even if aggro is running wild.

[Beldin_]

Amenti wrote:

Hate transfer from an Assassin and hate increase from a Dirge or Coercer ( as well as Magnetic Note and Thought Snap ) help immensely to control aggro in group and raid settings as well. 

Yeah, that has become much more important in T8 since the damge most DD classes has gone up for 50-100% while taunts had an upgrade for 2-5% or whatever. Also the differnce between the damage from tanks and DDs is bigger now. In old KoS instances my SK could do over 1200 zonewide and seldom any DD did more. In EoF zones it was mostly something like SK 8-900, DD 11-1200. Now however my SK does 1000-1300 in CoA while Wizzy, Assassins and Swashy can do 2-2600.

[JAFO74]

I play an 80 ranger as a main for raiding and a 80 zerker as an alt for instances. My zerker actually gets more play time now than my ranger as he is all geared up from instances and his fabled epic is done.

 Something to keep in mind is , If you don't have either a warden or a dirge in your normal group setup, your zerker will not be able to consistently hold aggro off a ranger if he is tanking in defensive, unless the ranger [Removed for Content] himself by going to a weaker bow. This may be necessary depending on how well geared the tank is, how hard the zone is. The group is just not set up for it. Your tank will not be able to hit the mobs and his dps(hate generation) will suffer immensely.

Try having your berserker tank in offensive(if he is not already). They have plenty of tools to make up for the hit they take in avoidance with adrenaline and their short duration mit/defense buffs. It will make things a little harder on the healer(you) but things will die faster and aggro control will be more solid. Berserkers aren't built to tank in defensive stance without a combat skill buffing class such as a warden(primitive instinct) or a dirge(can't remember what that buff is called). Paladins have amends, SK's have do ton's of spell damage, Guardians have moderate, reinforcement  and a + crushing/slashing/piercing group buff.

Edit, I just reread and noted that you have a druid you play with as well. If he is a warden you should be good as long as primitive instinct is on tank, if he is a fury, make sure agitate goes on the tank instead of another dpser if you are having problems(this spell does little good to a ranger if it is getting put on him). Also with 2 healers it should be no problem to tank any instance in offensive stance.

 Iago

[Solvantis]

I play a ranger as my main, i have alot of raid gear and some instance stuff still. I Don''t use Ig bliss.. I manage my agro.... I can still top the parse and keep from pulling agro. Its all about knowing your tank and his/her tanking style. And knowing your toon..

[voxranger]

I only use ignorant bliss when I find myself grouped with a tank who simply cannot hold aggro. I group with an 80 zerker almost nightly who is not raid gear, but is equiped in adorned class gear and has to maintain an offensive stance to hold aggro.

Also, keep in mind that no matter what ca is fired first, the auto attack is gonna fire next, and if it procs with double attack, poison, quick fire, and even gear reactives, you can be looking at a lot of fast damage in the first few seconds of the fight and there is nothing one can do to manage this part aside from simply not fighting. This is why a lot of rangers wait a few seconds before lighting up, and it is also why a tank needs to be able to aquire hate quickly. If the ranger is forced to wait too long, his damage output will suffer significantly.

Lastly, tanks should not be losing aggro to a ranger parsing 2500 or less.

[ChodeNode1]

Also, if your MT is a pally, then its his fault for not putting Amends on the ranger. I had to keep reminding the pally I was with last night to put it on me.

[Beldin_]

voxranger wrote:

Also, keep in mind that no matter what ca is fired first, the auto attack is gonna fire next, and if it procs with double attack, poison, quick fire, and even gear reactives, you can be looking at a lot of fast damage in the first few seconds of the fight and there is nothing one can do to manage this part aside from simply not fighting. This is why a lot of rangers wait a few seconds before lighting up

Personally i always use the "normal" deaggro after the first shot, and i also use surveillance each fight even if veiled fire is not up, or before i use rain of arrows.

[HezakiaIsh]

Lol Rangers = Hate magnets with no Hate transfer. If the Tank is not getting hate put on him i.e. from a dirge, assasin,coercer, etc. Then most of the time you will pull aggro durring a fight. Rangers RDA and RC are just to un predictable and if you happen to catch a RDA while focus aim is up rofl you better be smashing that de-aggro!!

[Lightomen]

I play a Lv 80 Ranger with Some T8 Fabled gear, a RSB w/+12% DPS adorn, 8% Ranged DA and 40% Ranged Crit.  In group environs, I parse around 2000-2400.  Raid setups and I am doing 2500-3000.  Bruisers and Monks will have some trouble holding agro over me,  SKs and Beserkers will be ok 95% of the time, and Pallies and Guardians almost never lose agro.

I think VoxRanger put it best and here's why:

I always start every fight with Blame Arrow, Baffle, then debuffs as my lead in to DPSing.  On rare occasions, I HAVE to use Spy and Leaping Grace, yes I am Kerran, to shed agro.  As near as I can tell, when this happens, Blame Arrow gets followed by an Auto-Attack that Double Attacks and Crits, Quick Shot procs, Poison procs and Crits, and RSB Procs.  Those with an RSB knows the numbers:  3k, 5k auto (x2), 595, 1000, 501 are the average ones.  So try shedding @ 15k worth of damage agro from your first attack and the fun begins.

Other then these rare instances, every tank out there can hold agro over a ranger.  The better rangers know how to shed the agro once they have it, because every once in a while, regardless of how cautious we think we are being, the randoms catch us all.

Blame Arrow should always be our first attack.  The issues with Blame Arrow are two-fold:  1.  Watching who Blame lands on.  I use Profit Reborn and if Blame lands on anybody but the tank I cancel it immediately.  2.  Avoidance tanks often avoid the hits that would give them the Blame agro increase. 

Uber-DPS is good goal, but having fun and not ruining the game for others is a better goal.

[HezakiaIsh]

Lightomen wrote:

 Those with an RSB knows the numbers:  3k, 5k auto (x2), 595, 1000, 501 are the average ones.  So try shedding @ 15k worth of damage agro from your first attack and the fun begins.

In guild groups i dont have to worry about aggro issues, outside guild rofl dif. story. 42-51 RC, 20 RDA, 26DPS, 700+ str and RSB will get you in trouble=) I know how to walk the aggro line and do very well, but not all tanks are the same and not all play the same. Grouping with a tank your not use to will take sometime before you figure were/ how hard you can get on it (dps train=)

[BSbon]

the best way to deal with someone who cant manage their aggro is to not heal them. they'll learn or pay for the repairs.

[TeflonS7]

BSbongo wrote:

the best way to deal with someone who cant manage their aggro is to not heal them. they'll learn or pay for the repairs.

Heh heh, yeah That's what our guild's tank calls a "self-correcting aggro problem."  The offending dps'er kicks the bucket and proper aggro falls right back in to place.