Tanks breaking mez to gain agro? lol

[Cpt.Harlo]

Ive had a couple of tanks pull this stunt on me now.I found AoE mez - amazing skill but it shows how stupid people are. Tanks keep waking all the mobs up to 'gain agro' (Hello! Its asleep? Are you a glutton for punishment?)Its getting to the point where I can mez an encounter that would have whiped us but it whipes us anyway because the tanks wake them all up again.To clarify - theyre not waking one mob up now and then. When stupid healers gain agro before the mez kicks in the tanks dont notice the mez (theres a good 2-3 second gap where the mob isnt moving clearly lol) and then they hit the sleeping mob and keep going til they wake them ALL up and im sat watching the party die trying desperately to mez the odd one.Any advice? " />

[wullailhuit]

Mark the tank on your ignore list and don't group with them again...

[Oriax]

Or you stop all your DPS totally, let the mobs beat down the group and start mezzing as soon as the tank goes down. Once everyone is dead and your standing juggling mezz on a few mobs start charm/suicide your pet then charm the next on till you got one mob left. Then tell the fool that they can try and finish the zone without you and leave. Let their jawls hit the floor in amazement that you even survived what just wiped the whole group. Maybe that'll teach him a lesson on rely on your abilities. 

[Freydinessa]

Being a tank i can tell you I personally love adventuring with Coercers. It is however a completely different combat strategy that i play when i'm with them. Generally AOE's go out the window, and i tell everyone is is IMPERATIVE that they all attack through me. I remove my AOE auto-attacks etc.. though - i'm not sure what level it is - this becomes obsolete, when your mezzes only break on direct attacks.I think the best thing to do is to tell all your members of your group at the beginning that you'll group mez in battle, and what that actually is. For some insane reason there is common belief that coercers are not desirable to have in groups etc... But i put this down to people just being scared of what they don't know. This results in hardly any players knowing what coercers are actually capable of.Mind you, you do get the ego tanks that will not listen to anything and think they know better. In that situation, the advice of post 3 and 2 should be followed i think " />.

[Cpt.Harlo]

Ehe seems theres no easy way round it by the sounds of it. I'll start macroing messages but then i risk annoying everyone with macro messages.The irony is that a tank that doesnt talk or taunt and just kills is usually the easiest to group with caus I can mez all adds and keep stunning the current mob.

[Xochipilli]

ive always found the best bet is to rely more on your stuns than your mezzes...  if the tank pulls a lot of encounters start with your aoe stun, then while everything is stunned find the biggest baddest encounter of the bunch and time your in encounter group stun to hit when the aoe stun wears off..  keep your eye on mobs that are not targetting your tank, single target stun and even mind bend...  i find generally by the time you're out of stuns the mobs are reduced to a manageable amount..the best thing about stunning is that the mobs still gets beaten down by aoe dmg from your group..you can also throw in a few mezzes in the mix, if the tank really pulled a lot theres no way he's gonna break em all...

[Davalin]

I have two boxed a Guardian/Illusionist.  My guardian has two types of taunts.  One of them only increases threat.  The other does some damage and threat.  If the guardian only used the non damage taunt he does not break mez.  The tank in question should use his group taunt that does not do damage.  That way he can keep argo on a mezed monster.

[Azubi]

sounds like fun, especially when things go wrong fast

[Aule]

Well we have 4 stuns and a daze so I don't find myself needing to mez all that often.  But in situations where it is likely to be necessary to stun, you need to make sure that the tank does not have any trample effect turned on, as this happily wakes mez on everything when it fires.  There is also a druid spell (fury I think) that does reactive encounter damage, that breaks mez too.  There's a swashie debuff that wakes the whole encounter also, forget which one that is.

Having played a tank and having a brother who I frequently group with who does currently play a tank, it gets reflexive to tab to the new mob / mob beating down someone else and beat it a little and then go back to low mob/whatever.  If the fights are hard enough that your group needs to be single killing then yeah, you need to communicate this with them and playstyles need to change accordingly. 

I also find having thought snap is handy, and some dispersion items 

[Meleania]

Well, I play a tank and I do this occasionally, usually because I forgot there was a chanter in the grp and only at the beginning

[jb-]

Oriax@Runnyeye wrote:

Or you stop all your DPS totally, let the mobs beat down the group and start mezzing as soon as the tank goes down. Once everyone is dead and your standing juggling mezz on a few mobs start charm/suicide your pet then charm the next on till you got one mob left. Then tell the fool that they can try and finish the zone without you and leave. Let their jawls hit the floor in amazement that you even survived what just wiped the whole group. Maybe that'll teach him a lesson on rely on your abilities. 

That's what I like doing.  Everybody laying on the ground watching me solo everything makes me smile/laugh.

[Antryg Mistrose]

Davalin wrote:

I have two boxed a Guardian/Illusionist.  My guardian has two types of taunts.  One of them only increases threat.  The other does some damage and threat.  If the guardian only used the non damage taunt he does not break mez.  The tank in question should use his group taunt that does not do damage.  That way he can keep argo on a mezed monster.

That doesn't work.Anyone targeting or assisting the tank will break mezz if the tank changes target to do a non-damage taunt (which not all have btw - my SK doesn't unless you count "Rescue" ), thats assuming the tank also turns autoattack off first.  Those kind of tactics work fine in a small coorcinated group (e.g. duo/trio without a priest).  You COULD do this in larger groups if you were also using an MA, but any group that competent/organised won't be using Mezz anyway.The original poster would hate to group with me when I play a SK - 7 blue AoEs including DoTs, and I'm not going to stop using them because some control freak enchanter thinks mezz is useful.  You want to be useful - give those stun/stifle/daze spells a workout.  If you MUSt mess, then mezz the adds BEFORE they get to the group.  A competent tank grouped with an enchanter won't target adds unless they start beating on the priests, and if the enchanter has left it that late, then you can't rely on them anyway.At higher levels it does get better, as both tanks and enchanters have improved in competence (generally, hopefully, sometimes .... )

[Davalin]

So long as the monsters are part of one encounter you do not need to change targets to use group taunts.

[Taharn]

If you're only fighting 1 encounter, there shouldnt be any need to mez...I know it's tempting to, but the way the game is designed, a yellow encounter is a yellow encounter, whether its one ^^^ mob, or a whole bunch of little ones. It really goes a lot faster if you just let people use their aoes..

 Now if you're talking about mezzing encounter adds, well then disregard my last statement and hit the tank for being such a fool.

[Anjin]

I'd love a way of easily breaking a mezzed encounter without targetting individual mobs!  Playing my berserker, there is nothing worse than an enchanter mezzing mobs that don't need to be mezzed.  Needlessly mezzing has a DRASTIC effect on the DPS of the group and for berserkers especially, a drastic affect on their ability to keep aggro.

Fair enough, this might not be your point, but the above does happen a lot and in those situations invariably the enchanter takes it as a personal slight that the tank and other DPS get [Removed for Content] off.

In reality, apart from specific encounters, unlucky respawns of tough mobs, bad multi encounter pulls (notice the bad there - multi encounter pull are certainly not always bad) and/or your group is fighting mobs way above your lvl/ability, there's no need to mezz at all.

Mezzing should only be used in specific circumstances, just because you have the ability doesn't make it a skill that is used in every/most multi mob encounters.

Lastly, if you do mezz a mob, communicate that you've done so.  It does take time to appreciate the ability of the tank & healers in a PU group (especially healers) so it's best to just see how things go before using your skills in a set manner.

[Cpt.Harlo]

Anjin wrote:

I'd love a way of easily breaking a mezzed encounter without targetting individual mobs!  Playing my berserker, there is nothing worse than an enchanter mezzing mobs that don't need to be mezzed.  Needlessly mezzing has a DRASTIC effect on the DPS of the group and for berserkers especially, a drastic affect on their ability to keep aggro.

Coercer is also a dps class so when theres nothing to do i will switch to debuffing and dpsing. Suffice to say the dungeon I was in was RoV where half the time you'd whipe if you AoEd.Im a bit lost as to how it affects your ability to keep agro. You agro, mob gets mezzed and remembers who he was agro on.

[Antryg Mistrose]

Cpt.Harlock wrote:

Coercer is also a dps class so when theres nothing to do i will switch to debuffing and dpsing. Suffice to say the dungeon I was in was RoV where half the time you'd whipe if you AoEd.Im a bit lost as to how it affects your ability to keep agro. You agro, mob gets mezzed and remembers who he was agro on.

Mezz PROTECTS mobs from AoEs, both encounter (green) and area (blue), unless the mob is directly targeted or someone has something like an AoE autoattack ability.  So the tank cannot without directly targeting the mezzed mobs increase their position on the hate list, and every other player in the group (ALL players have AoEs) just got the mob protected from them.Congratulations, the group now hates you.RoV btw has nowhere where it is unsafe to AoE, so suffice to say you need a bit more experience.

[Trepan]

The group doesn't hate you if you prevented a wipe.   Groups hate chanters that aren't flexible enough to use stuns instead of mezzes.  Of course, groups hate players of any class that aren't flexible enough to use the right tool for the current situation.Often a simple mind-bend on an add is enough to drop their DPS to where they don't matter.   Group Encounter stun is awesome to give everyone time to blink and get their act together when the poo-fan fires up.If the mobs are big enough to require mez, I know very few good tanks who have problems with standing down and using their no damage taunts repeated times to get the mob on them, and then opening the can-o-whoop to wake the mob and further their position on the hate list.Its the group members who assist target and wail away and wake mobs that [Removed for Content] me off.If we needed to mez, the tank wakes the mob.  Anyone else who wakes the mob, gets to negotiate with it.  "You spank it you tank it" still carries true.   I've watched a tank stand back and let the waker get chewed up before they taunted again.  Needless to say, I like that tank and always accept group invites from him.Here's a great aphorism for EVERY class to learn:  No hammer is the right tool for every nail.No mez fits every encounter, no taunt fits every encounter, no DoT, No Nuke, No Heal, No debuff, No Buff is useful in 100% of the encounters out there.  Use your tools... wisely.

[Slashmon]

I have a question that I hope doesnt derail the thread.

 I am a noob, and have just rolled a Zerker.

I notice some of our abilities aer geared to whack multiple mobs around us.

 Does that mean if you have a zerker then you are always going to break mez, or is there something written into the game that deals with it?

 Appreciate your comments

[Signal9]

Slashmon wrote:

I have a question that I hope doesnt derail the thread.

 I am a noob, and have just rolled a Zerker.

I notice some of our abilities aer geared to whack multiple mobs around us.

 Does that mean if you have a zerker then you are always going to break mez, or is there something written into the game that deals with it?

 Appreciate your comments

Mez spells now block indirect AoE.  What that means is that the only mezzed target that will be hit by your AoE is the one you have targetted.

The bigger problem usually occurs when someone drops an AoE DoT at the beginning of the fight.  when that happens, I can only DPS and stun, as mezzes are broken in 1 tick, when the DoT pulse hits.

One thing to remember with mezzers in the group, though.  When cycling through multiple mezzed targets to taunt, if the group is targetted through you, their auto-attacks are going to wake the mob.  You have to think about this before the fight, and keep reminding folks, as normal behavior is to lock down the aggro in this way.

[Jeepned2]

Anjin wrote:

I'd love a way of easily breaking a mezzed encounter without targetting individual mobs!  Playing my berserker, there is nothing worse than an enchanter mezzing mobs that don't need to be mezzed.  Needlessly mezzing has a DRASTIC effect on the DPS of the group and for berserkers especially, a drastic affect on their ability to keep aggro. (To tell you the truth, I don't really care about your dps, I care about killing the mob on the first try without people dying. I'm to the point now that I won't group with Zerker's cause almost to the person, you all have this same attitude. Over half of my ignore list is zerkers. Can't wait to hear all the crying and boohooing once the zerkers turn comes for nerfing.)

Fair enough, this might not be your point, but the above does happen a lot and in those situations invariably the enchanter takes it as a personal slight that the tank and other DPS get [Removed for Content] off. (I wouldn't say I take it personally, but think I have been known to forget to cast a stun spell that would have stopped the tank from dying on a couple of occasions, although a mezz right after the death of the tank has saved the rest of the group)

In reality, apart from specific encounters, unlucky respawns of tough mobs, bad multi encounter pulls (notice the bad there - multi encounter pull are certainly not always bad) and/or your group is fighting mobs way above your lvl/ability, there's no need to mezz at all. (Fair enough, then don't bring a mezzer along, and good luck in Maiden's. Ignoring or irritating all the mezzers you know could get you on someones ignore list.)

Mezzing should only be used in specific circumstances, just because you have the ability doesn't make it a skill that is used in every/most multi mob encounters. (That is true, too bad you don't seem to follow that same statement.)

To me it sounds like you have very little or no use for mezzers. OK. But I'm not too to fond of those who would ignore my class abilities and get me killed a lot. That also goes for those who think they have to set a time speed record in every instance they enter. I have other things to spend my money on then repairs after grouping with tanks with your attitude.

[gandalfgray]

Foolish tanks that only know how to play with 2 healers and taunting everything in sight might want to learn how to actually play the game.  Mezing is certainly more than just a "savior" spell and can significinatly INCREASE the pace you take a dungeon if you had the brain power to actually use it properly.  Maybe instead of taking 5 minutes to get a perfect body pull on a fight you go ahead and bring two mobs and let the enchanter deal with it.  If you are going to DoT Every mob in the area, I will be more than happy to put you on ignore.

[Trepan]

Cpt.Harlock wrote:

m a bit lost as to how it affects your ability to keep agro. You agro, mob gets mezzed and remembers who he was agro on.

That raises a question I've never pondered before.  Its seems to me from experience, but not from analysis, that mezzed mobs are removed from the encounter completely.  I've never seen one switch target to a healer during a long fight, as thats the only agro I can imagine they'd get (unless someone was targetting them and debuffing - something I do all the time, as well as stealing power from them for the group but that has never, to my knowledge, caused them to switch tagets).Now, I can see the tank having precious little lead on agro if the chanter is quick on the draw for mez.. and then when mez breaks a single HoT tick can swing the mob to the healer, but that should be so fast that the mob doesn't take more than a step or a turn toward the healer because at the point, the tank should be swinging at it and firing taunts.SOoo... the only way I can see a mezzed mob switching targets is 1)  Thoughtsnap  or 2)  Tank and mezzer were tied for agro and mezz was enough to switch them to the 'chanter because they didn't have agro transfer up.Am I correct in this?  If I've had to mezz, I'm normally too busy to sit and stare at a mezzed mob and watch its targetting.

[Trepan]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

If you MUSt mess, then mezz the adds BEFORE they get to the group.  A competent tank grouped with an enchanter won't target adds unless they start beating on the priests, and if the enchanter has left it that late, then you can't rely on them anyway.

I need to address this.   There are several dungeons that make that tactic impossible.   Casting or damaging the mobs before they get to the groups "Safe" spot where they're fighting means more adds in a lot of cases.   Or, in case you haven't noticed, thats why you body pull a lot... and don't hit or taunt  the mob until it gets closer.  So close, in fact, that it has a very good chance of being able to reach out and touch you.Or should we not rely on tanks that do that either? 

[Snowbeard]

I had an interesting adventure on the weekend with my chanter...We were waiting for the healer in our group, and the leader (a zerker) was full of [Removed for Content] and vinegar to get into ROV.  So we went in anyway.He was pulling and AOEing as usual through the easy stuff.  So of course, no mezzing.Then it got to the moderately difficult stuff and his health bar was getting low pretty fast.  But he was a smart tank and didn't over-pull.  No problems.Then it got to the harder stuff, where I knew he would die.  But the mezzes I threw in bunged up the mobs enough so that his health only got to within slivers, instead to zero.  After a while he figured out that if he left the mezzed mobs alone, it got quite a bit easier.   This was like 20 mins into the dungeon!  At some point he became so amazed that he was doing so well without a healer.Of course it got pushed to the point of a wipe, but he did have a new appreciation for mez after that.  And it wasn't because I told him -- it was because he figured it out himself.Bottom line: inductive logic is priceless

[Turb]

Coercers have the wonderful ability to control fights through stuns.    It's quite subtle to the rest of the group.    Yet it makes challenging content very easy.

Some chanters like to feel they're important.   They want to mes, they want to be seen to mes.   They throw hissy fits if people break a mes.     I don't think these people do our class any favours.

I am quite happy that I make our group better without people noticing - well maybe except for the occassional thoughtsnap, but if that's not macro'd noone knows