Raid MT setup - 6th member?

[cs01bw]

The situation:

Im on a PvP server Qeynos side -- so no freep characters

Our MT group is currently - Mystic Templar Warden Guardian Dirge Illusionist

Now the 1st 5 will stay the same..

But im interested in bringing in a pally or a zerker, as the 6th member instead of Illu and having 3 dps groups instead of OT grp and 2 dps

Which of pally or zerker would have better buffs for the MT group (HATE is ok so dont need swash for transfer)and be able to then take up MT role if it goes down? -- LvL 80 specials important here also

any advice / comments welcome

Bazman

[Kaleyen]

You're going to need some hate transfer in there if you want your DPS to throw up some numbers.  Toss a Swashy in there for the 6th man.

[cs01bw]

Bazman@Venekor wrote:

Which of pally or zerker would have better buffs for the MT group (HATE is ok so dont need swash for transfer)and be able to then take up MT role if it goes down? -- LvL 80 specials important here also

There isnt any problems holding hate.... atm. The swash therefore isnt bringing much to the MT group.

 When / If the dps gets high enough that hate is a problem again.. then this will be done ofc... but untill then any other suggestions?

[Rast]

I'll be honest (and I'm a paladin) I'd stick with the swashy there regardless.  You are better off with a Zerker/Paladin in the OT group to pick up if you get dropped as it is likely either will need specific buffs to function in that roll that they can't get in the MT group (dirge hate, hate transfer, tank buffs from healers, etc).  If you don't want a swashy, I'd go with Illusionist or Coercer.

Even if you don't need the hate, you would be depriving your OT of valuable buffs by forcing them to work from that group.

[Wilin]

Bazman@Venekor wrote:

Bazman@Venekor wrote:

 There isnt any problems holding hate.... atm. The swash therefore isnt bringing much to the MT group.

 When / If the dps gets high enough that hate is a problem again.. then this will be done ofc... but untill then any other suggestions?

That may be true now. Have you considered the hate that you are losing by dropping the Illy out? Haste, illusory arm, etc. Neither pally nor zerker will make up for that hate loss from the removal of the illy. So, I'd still recommend a swashie to replace the illy unless you are so far ahead of all of your DPS generators that you don't even need the hate you have now.

[Mhedic]

I have to say Berzerker in this case.  It would benifit the tank the most.  Although i am not sure what buffs the Pally would bring, but i have to imagine the Berzerkers would be more benificial. 

[cs01bw]

Wilin wrote:

That may be true now. Have you considered the hate that you are losing by dropping the Illy out? Haste, illusory arm, etc. Neither pally nor zerker will make up for that hate loss from the removal of the illy. So, I'd still recommend a swashie to replace the illy unless you are so far ahead of all of your DPS generators that you don't even need the hate you have now.

This is true.. so if i keep the Illu

-- how can i Tune/Turn the OT group into almost as efficient at dmg, as a DPS group.. yet retain its ability to OT??

[MaCloud1032]

Bazman@Venekor wrote:

Wilin wrote:

That may be true now. Have you considered the hate that you are losing by dropping the Illy out? Haste, illusory arm, etc. Neither pally nor zerker will make up for that hate loss from the removal of the illy. So, I'd still recommend a swashie to replace the illy unless you are so far ahead of all of your DPS generators that you don't even need the hate you have now.

This is true.. so if i keep the Illu

-- how can i Tune/Turn the OT group into almost as efficient at dmg, as a DPS group.. yet retain its ability to OT??

Being Q only i would goZerkerDirgeTemplarWardenRangerSwashHave the warden melee specked and the templar as a battle mage.  Will get the most dps out of them and can still heal.  The dirge will buff the entire group very well as its all melee and the zerker will also buff the melee of the group.  Have the templar keep his group reactive up for the O crud moment when the MT goes down.  The zerker also have a few good o [Removed for Content] spells including a auto rez that wont kill them.

[Wilin]

Or if you'd rather build around the pally for the OT group

PallyTroubWarlockConjTemplarFury

Pally amends on warlock. Fury agitates Pally. Conj mit on the pally. Very good snap aggro since the pally can easily stay near the top of the hate list and when not tanking, everyone in the group is nuking like crazy. This is basically a great caster dps group with a templar instead of an illy. Temp specs for Divine recovery and all that jazz.

[Daalilama]

Taking into accout your current MT setup...I'd go

Guardian

Mystic

Templar

Warden

Dirge

Swashy

If no dirge is available then I'd swap in an Illusy and have his double attk and haste on swashy otherwise your good to go.

[Rast]

Wilin wrote:

Or if you'd rather build around the pally for the OT group

PallyTroubWarlockConjTemplarFury

Pally amends on warlock. Fury agitates Pally. Conj mit on the pally. Very good snap aggro since the pally can easily stay near the top of the hate list and when not tanking, everyone in the group is nuking like crazy. This is basically a great caster dps group with a templar instead of an illy. Temp specs for Divine recovery and all that jazz.

To be honest, as a pally, I don't like that group much.  Would be better as

Pally, Dirge, Brigand, Inquisitor, Shaman (either Defiler or Mystic) Illusionist.

This gives the pally his hate generator (the brigand), A solid healing duo that can dps natually if needed (defiler/inquisitor), good hate and dps buffs (dirge) and good damage buffs (illusionist).  I know some of my best MTing has been done with a similiar group (Paladin, templar, mystic, dirge, illusionist, ranger) but it was a bit more defensive spec'd than what you'd want for an OT group.

[Kaleyen]

Keep in mind he's Qeynos and can only be grouped with Good/Neutral.Paladin, Illusionist, Warlock, Mystic, Fury, Swashy/Dirge/TroubI've OT'd a lot as a Paladin...a lot.  The two greatest things facing an OT is getting quick aggro and survivability with this setup when the MT goes down hitting Sigil and having the Warlock unload will be an easy pickup, then with the wards and the quick heals from the Fury the Pally should be able to lock down the encounter until the Guard is back up.

[Rast]

bah, I missed that part, sorry.

I'd still go with the above, just swap out the brigand for a swashy, the inquisitor for a templar and a defiler for a mystic.  It is still a far better group than building it as a mage group or pulling a warlock out of the mage group.  Yes, the warlock MAY be able to outdps the swashy, but the swashy has other means to generate agro that the warlock doesn't have (taunts, debuffs built into their CAs, etc).  To be honest, if I want snap agro, I wouldn't be looking to a warlock for it (a wizard maybe, but not a warlock).  Plus right now, the paladin has a very, very good snap agro ability at 80 (Holy Ground)

As an off tank (I MT more than I OT, so take that for what it is worth, but I am a raid leader) I would want to be sure that the OT had the right buffs and solid healing.  DPS is nice, but that group would still be a solid DPS group (templar's extra chance to proc with a melee majority group and the paladin's procs), expecially with the dirge there for CoB.  The illusionist imo, is a must in that group as it would be providing alot of buffs (double attacks, haste, and even the occasional temporary int buff).

And Am I to assume you've got back to playing Liluk there Kayelen?

[Kaleyen]

I'm actually playing a Guardian and MT'ing for RoK raids

[Rast]

Kaleyen wrote:

I'm actually playing a Guardian and MT'ing for RoK raids " width="15" height="15" />

pbbbbbt!

I'm still a paladin and I'm MTing T7 stuff and will be doing some T8 stuff eventually (once my guild gets enough people leveled to do it, inlcuding myself).

[Wilin]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

bah, I missed that part, sorry.

I'd still go with the above, just swap out the brigand for a swashy, the inquisitor for a templar and a defiler for a mystic.  It is still a far better group than building it as a mage group or pulling a warlock out of the mage group.  Yes, the warlock MAY be able to outdps the swashy, but the swashy has other means to generate agro that the warlock doesn't have (taunts, debuffs built into their CAs, etc).  To be honest, if I want snap agro, I wouldn't be looking to a warlock for it (a wizard maybe, but not a warlock).  Plus right now, the paladin has a very, very good snap agro ability at 80 (Holy Ground)

As an off tank (I MT more than I OT, so take that for what it is worth, but I am a raid leader) I would want to be sure that the OT had the right buffs and solid healing.  DPS is nice, but that group would still be a solid DPS group (templar's extra chance to proc with a melee majority group and the paladin's procs), expecially with the dirge there for CoB.  The illusionist imo, is a must in that group as it would be providing alot of buffs (double attacks, haste, and even the occasional temporary int buff).

And Am I to assume you've got back to playing Liluk there Kayelen?

You're obviously in the dirge camp. But there's an equal number of crusaders who are in the troub camp. (There's plenty of that over at the crusader boards) So I built it around the troub, therefore casters.

I considered putting an illy in there instead of the conj, but his illy was already in the MT group so I tried to pick something else that was a caster and did something for a tank.

[Rast]

Aye, I believe you get more out of the dirge/illusionist/swashy combo than you do with the warlock/troub/illusionist group.  Think the buffs work out a bit better and the illusionist (if I'm not mistaken) can still stick time compression on the warlock in the mage group.  Gives everyone slightly better buffs, IMO.

That being said, I've put in some decent dps parses with a troub/illusionist combo but for the OT, having a dirge there for hate buffs can make up for the lack of DPS for the paladin and the paladin is a bit more prepared to pick up adds or the encounter if the MT goes down.  Now, if you don't have an extra illusionist, and you have an extra troub, then I could see using a troub intead of the illusionist.  Don't like it as much, but think it would probably work.

I also like the extra survivability of a chain wearing hate transfer target, warlocks are great on multimob encounters (don't get me wrong) but they wear tissue paper around and if they pull agro, it is pretty much all over.

[Kaleyen]

Which Band Camp do you prefer?If you like the Troub stick a Warlock in there, if you like a Dirge stick a Ranger in there.  The key is to have a dangerously high parser in there so you can pick up aggro quickly when the MT goes down.  Personally I like the Dirge for PoS and Parry.

[Rast]

Kaleyen wrote:

Which Band Camp do you prefer?If you like the Troub stick a Warlock in there, if you like a Dirge stick a Ranger in there.  The key is to have a dangerously high parser in there so you can pick up aggro quickly when the MT goes down.  Personally I like the Dirge for PoS and Parry.

aye, that is about right   Alot of it is also going to depend on what you have available too.

[nat_lyte]

Bazman@Venekor wrote:

But im interested in bringing in a pally or a zerker, as the 6th member instead of Illu and having 3 dps groups instead of OT grp and 2 dps

 if ya build yer OT group properly its also a dps group, not quite a purest dps group but  solid try zerker illy swash fury dirge templar<( i put an inquis here but qeynos restriction=() swashy illy dont benefit as much as swashy coercer does or assassin illy, but its the best ya can do with qeynos only whats important is making sure your getting the dps ya should out of everyone, dont let yer dirge get away with a 300pt parse or your templar/fury get away at no parse( except  on specific fights) zerker 80 ability lets em survive a sudden shift in agro and not get flattened while healers pick up the heals, zerker also has the aoe agro to be great at scraping lots of adds off the MT without a great deal of difficulty and the buff setup should put everyone in the group parsing well except the illy who gets jack and #*$( except the + proc buffs from dirge and temp which properly geared can be enough to put em parsing decently

[cs01bw]

Thankyou all for your replies..

 we will be trying out both the zerker and pala options -- however we usually only have 1 or 2 dirge's and therefore have 1 in MT and 1 in the melee dps group.

 So - having a mage like OT group appeals to us more. -- but there were plenty of good opinions and ideas for us to try out.

 In the new year we will be trying T8 Raids -- and will update this post with what we find works best

(all depends on the right classes being available -- and over xmas that isnt happening lol)

cheers

Baz