EQOA and todays lore

[Deablo]

Does anyone have any knowledge of Norrath during this games time line? (500 years before EQ1)Is it even part of the lore?

[Cusashorn]

Most of it isn't, but EQ2 still references small things like a cat named Telethin in Willowwood or the Spring-something Healer in Commonlands. Amana is more knowledgable at EQOA than I am, as I've never played it.

[Rezikai]

Deab, as Cusa said, alot of it is up in the air. Some things i could point out would be the Wegadas/Lycanthropy story arc, while EQ1/EQ2 recognize Wegadas was the great Druid of the Unkept and his Daughter and Sons made civil war to claim the rights of his power after his death, they dont use the arc of the Lycanthropy spreading throughout Norrath infecting people.

 As for the Springview Sanitarium Healer in Commonlands, I had only ever known them being associated with the Plain of Disease in EQoA so an assumption would be they are keeping that version of the Plains lore. (which btw was an awesome story told by a Grand Unkempt Druid who ventured to Surefall Glade when the evil Healers first came upon EQoA's Norrath)

The other refrences are plausible but not set in stone, an adventurer in EQ2 is searching for any remains of the city of Telethin/Fayspire, (hes in willow wood as well i think) and most would assum w/ the Elf lore that they made that city for EQoA and as a way to fit it in , called it a refugee city for the elves after being pushed back out of Takish Hiz, (nearly every quest giver in Telethin/Fay will talk about "the great burning" )

Deablo, I'd say its safe to say "some" of EQoA's lore is in todays EQ2's lore timeline, similar to EQ1's "some" since not all of EQ1's will fit into the timeline here either. They even had a beta city in EQ2 named "Highbourne" same name as our starter city for Erudites, but they scrapped it.

The better question is, Who wrote EQoA's Lore?... I played EQoA from Release until just a few month ago.. and they never had a dedicated "lore" Dev (the team there is much smaller then here) and its unclear where much of the lore the Devs use there is coming from. Vhalen has said before he doesnt speak for EQoA's Lore... so ..... the question would be who did/does?

[Ama]

Cusashorn wrote:

Most of it isn't, but EQ2 still references small things like a cat named Telethin in Willowwood or the Spring-something Healer in Commonlands. Amana is more knowledgable at EQOA than I am, as I've never played it.

Truth be told I have some knowledge about EQOA, but not enough to make me a Guru.  Problem is some of EQOA lore is controversial and some consider it non-cannon.  The biggest one is out in the Desert past the old town of Freeport where you have the destroyed ruins of Takish'Hiz (if I remember correctly).  Problem is the destruction was supposed to occur a long time ago yet you have elves that remember it which is a bit of a problem due to elven life-span. 

In EQOA Lady Vox was in the icy stronghold of Permafrost with ice giants roaming everywhere.  One thing that was quite different is Permafrost was out in the open with the front part showing.  In EQ2 it is encased in that huge cave possibly due to the shattering.

With the main EQOA world there are 4 dragons and with the expansion came 2-4 more.  The dragon in the Toxxulia Forest is one we will know of or from a developers post (I think) we know its offspring. 

I did find an interesting piece on wikipedia though that some may want to take a look at: "Respectively the three factions are: Soldiers of Rallos Zek, whose deity is Rallos Zek, the Honor Guard, followers of Mithaniel Marr, and the Akessan, mysterious, dimensionless beings whom worship an unknown deity."

[Nocturnal Aby]

Amana wrote:

In EQOA Lady Vox was in the icy stronghold of Permafrost with ice giants roaming everywhere.  One thing that was quite different is Permafrost was out in the open with the front part showing.  In EQ2 it is encased in that huge cave possibly due to the shattering.

With the main EQOA world there are 4 dragons and with the expansion came 2-4 more.  The dragon in the Toxxulia Forest is one we will know of or from a developers post (I think) we know its offspring. 

Permafrost Keep was covered up long before EQ2.  In EQ, an entrance to the Keep barely stuck it's head out of a large mountain (glacier?).  I can tell you one thing, though, it looks much different than it did in EQ.  Looks like the ice giants have done some renovations!  The Keep was originally built by the giants, prior to the curse of the Rathe.  Some say that the Keep is the epicenter of the curse, with those who were caught there turned to ice (the ice giants of EQ looked like giants...carved out of ice, while all the other giants looked more..well, normal...for giants.  Possible exceptions being the fire giants of Solesek's Eye, who were under Nagafen's control).  Whatever it's history, it has been ruled over by Lady Vox for longer than any mortal can recall, and even in undeath, we see that she still calls it her own.

The dragon named Toxxulia (at least, I believe that was it's name) is, at current, assumed to be one of the parents for Venekor, but this is assumed by some of the lore community, and has not been actually referenced by the devs.  Toxxulia never appeared in the game in EQ, so my personal knowledge on that dragon is what I've stated here, with the addition of the dragon's home being on Odus.  That's all I know of Toxxulia.

We know Fayspire is actually still in existance, thanks to the ramblings of a sole surviving sailor, who is now a gust at the Freeport Infirmary and Asylum.  Vhalen made reference to the poor dreg's fate here.

We also know that Highbourne was originally going to be in-game, but was left out due to mechanical reasons, as mentioned here by Moorgard.  The pertinent information being as follows:

On a side note, we almost had a land mass in our game named Highbourne. Unfortunately, like Marr or Busheldown, it was an early zone that was built inefficiently and we decided not to use it. Too bad, because it had these cool bone bridges going across huge chasms. It was fun to run around in back in the day.

My own opinion? Though rich with lore, the creators of EQOA tried to cram too much into a single time period.  Doing this made it conflict with the known lore in EQ.  We have the exodus of the Elves still occurring, while at the same time, the Erudites have not left Antonica.  Moreover, they are already divided, which we don't see occuring until sometime after they've built their haven of Erudin, when in EQ, we have the human interactions with elves and dwarves being a novelty only told by sailors who have traveled to Faydwer.  In this reference, told by Erud himself, it was this interaction which was human kinds first major steps to true knowledge of the arcane, and it was scrolls given the human by the elves that the Erudites stole, wanting it for their own higher pursuits.

We have ogres that are pretty much unheard of, even though the elves would have experienced first hand the 1st Rallosian Empire, and Dwarven and Gnomish settlements in Antonica that are not even whispered about in EQ.  And the icing on the cake, no differentiation between Wood Elves and High Elves.

The biggest problem with all of this?  It all occured only 500 years prior to EQ...which means that elves, and possibly a few dwarves and gnomes, would have been alive during the time period of EQOA, and be able to give account to the goings of that time to the people in EQ.  Moreover, with the lifespan of the elves, it would be very difficult to have two distinct races in such a short period of time. I have the same problem with the Renda'Dal in EQ2...not enough time for a race to degrade, unless they somehow pulled a Quelithule, and cast some big spell that altered the physiology of the race.  We know from a witness in Castleview Hamlet, and even Willow Wood, that the Koada'Dal were still Koada'Dal at the end of the War of the Fay, which was less than 500 years ago.  We also know that Lenya Thex was the daughter of Tearis Thex (there were quests involving her in EQ...hmm, wonder how she feels about seafood..), King Tearis being the king who was assassinated during the War of the Fay.  So out of an entire city of Koada'Dal....we have one who is still alive from 500 years ago..the rest of the population being afflicted with the longevity of a human (80-90 years on average?)....

Anyways, my apologies for the tangent.  Some of the lore from EQOA is used in some form, though if it is actually considered to be from the same time period as it was in EQOA, is left for the developers to decide.

[Mary the Prophetess]

Something has troubled me for a very long time, and perhaps this may be an appropriate place to bring it up.

In EQoA, Oasis is located in the central part of the desert which gradually overtook and buried the Elddar Forest.  It had the spectre tower  situated there as well.

By EQ Live the spectre tower was still there, but Oasis is by then called the Oasis OF MARR.  I have never understood this association.

Now in EQ2, it is simply Oasis again, and still the spectres remain at the Rosethorn Spire.

South of the Southern Deserts of Ro, once stood Ardathium, the first stronghold for the followers of Marr.  It was a sentinel against the Trolls of Innothule.  It existed at the same period of time as Takish 'His which lay to the north in the Elddar Forest.  As the Elddar forest withered and turned to sand, so too was Ardathium eventually abandoned and buried, and never seen again.

To the North of the Elddar Forest, along the border with the open spaces of the Commonlands, was another stronghold for the worshipers of the Divine Twins.  It's name is not known, but is now called Befallen.  As a stronghold for the worshipers of Marr, it was established long after Ardathium, perhaps by refugees from that place?  Eventually, it too was abandoned when the Paladins of Marr found Gynok Moltar wandering about the Commonlands, mad as a hatter and raving, and brought him, (and the curse of  Oppala), back into their stronghold.

My real question though is what link is there between the Marr Twins and Oasis? 

To the south, yes.  To the north too.  But nothing to connect they or their followers to Oasis, Takish 'Hiz, the Elddar Forest, or the Aros`Thalinor in the center.  Was it a place of succor for refugees fleeing Ardathium to the south on their exodus to the north?  The lore, so far as I can tell, (in EQoA, EQ Live, and EQ2), is silent on this matter.

Any enlightenment on this issue would be much appreciated. 

[Rainmare]

It could be that with Marr strongholds north and south, in a great desert, that the followers of the marr twins had to use the oasis regularly in order to supply thier strongholds with water and supplies. hence, it became known at the Oasis of Marr, due to the high amount of marr worshipers one might find there at any given time?

[Zarafein]

---

 The biggest problem with all of this?  It all occured only 500 years prior to EQ...which means that elves, and possibly a few dwarves and gnomes, would have been alive during the time period of EQOA, and be able to give account to the goings of that time to the people in EQ.  Moreover, with the lifespan of the elves, it would be very difficult to have two distinct races in such a short period of time. I have the same problem with the Renda'Dal in EQ2...not enough time for a race to degrade, unless they somehow pulled a Quelithule, and cast some big spell that altered the physiology of the race.  We know from a witness in Castleview Hamlet, and even Willow Wood, that the Koada'Dal were still Koada'Dal at the end of the War of the Fay, which was less than 500 years ago.  We also know that Lenya Thex was the daughter of Tearis Thex (there were quests involving her in EQ...hmm, wonder how she feels about seafood..), King Tearis being the king who was assassinated during the War of the Fay.  So out of an entire city of Koada'Dal....we have one who is still alive from 500 years ago..the rest of the population being afflicted with the longevity of a human (80-90 years on average?)....

---

Thats actually the most interessting part of eqoa lore for me , but it seems like they are indeed able to alter themself drasticaly, as far as i remeber an everquest 2 player article mentions the use of magic(and selective breeding after shortend livespan) to change koada'dal into renda'dal, same could be the case for the first split ....or they are just so  different from humans and don't even need another generation to adapt.. so an Elf would change his appearance(+other stuff) after 100-200 years if he maintains a completly different life style than he did before... they are magical creatures, maybe not as much as fae but this could still be the case.

[Kamimura]

Mary the Prophetess wrote:

My real question though is what link is there between the Marr Twins and Oasis? 

Not the Marr twins, Tarew Marr.

[Josgar]

OMG!Fayspire exists. If we cannot reclaim felwithe.. we should reclaim fayspire! And too bad Firiona Vie is a lost cause " />

[Dragowulf]

Josgar wrote:

OMG!Fayspire exists. If we cannot reclaim fayspire.. we should reclaim fayspire! And too bad Firiona Vie is a lost cause " />

Wait...what?How's Josgar suppose to be the "greatest high elf in norrath" if he can't even get things right?!drago.

[Josgar]

Dragowulf2 wrote:

Josgar wrote:

OMG!Fayspire exists. If we cannot reclaim fayspire.. we should reclaim fayspire! And too bad Firiona Vie is a lost cause " />

Wait...what?How's Josgar suppose to be the "greatest high elf in norrath" if he can't even get things right?!drago.

Not my fault that you humans have a pathetic language! I prefer elvish myself...And guess what... I never said i don't make mistakes >.> I said im the best High Elf Ever... therefore all elves make more mistakes than me.

[Hagran]

Yup, I'd agree that its named after Tarew Marr, i actually give respect to all three of the Marr gods with my Froglok.

[Mary the Prophetess]

I am still confused. 

Other than the fact that Oasis is a lake, (in EQoA it was a large pool in the center of a river which flowed through the desert to the sea), and that lakes contain water, I see even less of a direct connection between Tarew Marr and an oasis in the middle of a desert than there is between the Marr Twins and that location.

Maybe there is simply less here than meet's the eye, and it's just a name after all, with no connection to be found.

[Hagran]

i think that because back in the old EQoA and EQ1 days it was bang smack in the middle of the Desert it was a blessing from the god of water and therefore named in his honor, its likely just coincedence that the other Marr god had outpost etc in that area and they probably even gathered there but thats my ten cents!

[Kamimura]

Mary the Prophetess wrote:

Other than the fact that Oasis is a lake, (in EQoA it was a large pool in the center of a river which flowed through the desert to the sea), and that lakes contain water, I see even less of a direct connection between Tarew Marr and an oasis in the middle of a desert than there is between the Marr Twins and that location.

I'd say the fact that it is a lake in a desert gives more meaning to it than the twins. As Hagran said, an oasis in the middle of a desert is a pretty blessed thing.. but even beyond that when doing the cleric epic in EQL, you learn that the Triumvirate of Water and Solusek Ro are rival forces, the Triumvirate spends a lot of time defending the waters from Ro, apparently. So, an oasis created/sustained by Tarew in the desert created by Ro.

[Ama]

There are alot of interesting spots some will see within EQOA.  One that has been mentioned before is Jethal Castle *sp* with those unusual creatures.  To me another interesting spot is Castle Lightwolf deep in the Snowy Fields of Norrath. 

[Ealan]

I dont know why so many want to push aside the EQOA lore.  I think its a bias really since it wasnt a PC game.  EQOA lore is actually surprisingly tight (tighter than EQ1) and meshes with the larger storyline quite well.  It gives detail to events that by EQ1 are "historic" and referred to vaguely.  I think it would be the equivalent of going back and LIVING during the Renaissance vs reading about it.

 Now as another poster pointed out, the *timelines* are problematic.  Probably the best way to handle that would have been for the writers to have stretched those windows out a bit more (say 1000 years instead of 500) and shortened the lifespan of non-humans.  There's no law that demands that everything must follow Tolkien.  Just make it that Norrathian elves have maybe 2 or 3x the lifespan of a human and dwarves somewhere in between.  Keep it that no mortal creature lives beyond 300 or so, lengthen the windows of time to near 1000 years, and remove or explain the few EQ2 NPCs that have first hand knowledge of the time before the shattering (perhaps magical life extension or something) and we'd have a tighter foundation.  The EQOA lore should definitely be included in the canon though.  Ive dabbled in that game JUST to see the lore and it's quite cool for a true fan of the larger game.

[Nocturnal Aby]

I'd like to think I don't have a bias towards to EQOA.  My opinions are based entirely on the state of the lore of the game.  I'm not saying that the lore for the game is crap, I'm quite certain I never said as much.  In fact, for never playing the game, I'd like to think that I know quite a bit of the lore for it, though I imagine there are some finer points that I am quite oblivious to.

That said, my problems with it, as I stated previously, are not with the existance of the content, but the time frame in which it all exists, and the inconsistancies between it and EQ (EQ being the original that all expansion/spinoffs are based off).  I will willingly admit there are a few inconsistancies with the EQ lore, but the majority of that, I attribute to the game having changed hands too many times.  Each time someone else was put in charge, they took the game a different direction, and lore had to bridge the gap (sometimes, it looks like they were building a bridge across the Pacific). I guess it frustrates me that so little care was taken when designing the EQOA lore in regards to the timeline.  As stated, it places Erud on Antonica (Tunaria) at the same time as the elves, where in EQ, we read journal exerts from his first visit to Freeport (not much more than a tent city), and the only people who've even heard of elves, dwarve, and only rumors of gnomes, are people who've been to Faydwer.

Moreover, we have no reference of Moradhim (Unless it's Blackburrow), Highbourne, Klick'Anon (Unless it was the gnomish outpost in Solusek's what was it? B?  A?).  And the opening up of the Unkempt Wood.  As I had stated before, my problem isn't with the lore that they have so much as the timespan in which it all exists.  If they had made EQOA span a millenia and set it a millenia in the past, then it would be more plausible.  The problem I have is with who they put as contemporaries.

[Ama]

Nocturnal Abyss wrote:

I'd like to think I don't have a bias towards to EQOA.  My opinions are based entirely on the state of the lore of the game.  I'm not saying that the lore for the game is crap, I'm quite certain I never said as much.  In fact, for never playing the game, I'd like to think that I know quite a bit of the lore for it, though I imagine there are some finer points that I am quite oblivious to.

That said, my problems with it, as I stated previously, are not with the existance of the content, but the time frame in which it all exists, and the inconsistancies between it and EQ (EQ being the original that all expansion/spinoffs are based off).  I will willingly admit there are a few inconsistancies with the EQ lore, but the majority of that, I attribute to the game having changed hands too many times.  Each time someone else was put in charge, they took the game a different direction, and lore had to bridge the gap (sometimes, it looks like they were building a bridge across the Pacific). I guess it frustrates me that so little care was taken when designing the EQOA lore in regards to the timeline.  As stated, it places Erud on Antonica (Tunaria) at the same time as the elves, where in EQ, we read journal exerts from his first visit to Freeport (not much more than a tent city), and the only people who've even heard of elves, dwarve, and only rumors of gnomes, are people who've been to Faydwer.

Moreover, we have no reference of Moradhim (Unless it's Blackburrow), Highbourne, Klick'Anon (Unless it was the gnomish outpost in Solusek's what was it? B?  A?).  And the opening up of the Unkempt Wood.  As I had stated before, my problem isn't with the lore that they have so much as the timespan in which it all exists.  If they had made EQOA span a millenia and set it a millenia in the past, then it would be more plausible.  The problem I have is with who they put as contemporaries.

I'll have to check about Moradhim cause I don't remember hearing about that.  Highbourne *I think* was the lands occupied by the Erudites which was a lush Savana style area.  There's actually a mission from Qeynos where you have to talk on behalf of one of the Bayles ruling Qeynos.  Klick'Anon was and is the city of the gnomes in EQOA where they built vast hordes of tinkered minions.  Still remember venturing into that clockwork clogged city and seeing those weird little gnomes runnin about.  Klick'Anon was located close to the HighElven city where the Fayspire was. 

Another thing is with the EQOA:Frontiers expansion the Erudites were preparing to leave Highbourne venturing to the newly discovered continent they called Arcadin.  In Arcadin you will find "Erud" who talks about the newly discovered continent and why they named their city Prexus.  I believe it is after Erud's death that they name the city of the Erudites Erudin. 

[Mary the Prophetess]

http://macsingz.tripod.com/imagelib...w&title=Tunaria

http://macsingz.tripod.com/id72.html

[teddyboy4]

Amana wrote:

Nocturnal Abyss wrote:

I'd like to think I don't have a bias towards to EQOA.  My opinions are based entirely on the state of the lore of the game.  I'm not saying that the lore for the game is crap, I'm quite certain I never said as much.  In fact, for never playing the game, I'd like to think that I know quite a bit of the lore for it, though I imagine there are some finer points that I am quite oblivious to.

That said, my problems with it, as I stated previously, are not with the existance of the content, but the time frame in which it all exists, and the inconsistancies between it and EQ (EQ being the original that all expansion/spinoffs are based off).  I will willingly admit there are a few inconsistancies with the EQ lore, but the majority of that, I attribute to the game having changed hands too many times.  Each time someone else was put in charge, they took the game a different direction, and lore had to bridge the gap (sometimes, it looks like they were building a bridge across the Pacific). I guess it frustrates me that so little care was taken when designing the EQOA lore in regards to the timeline.  As stated, it places Erud on Antonica (Tunaria) at the same time as the elves, where in EQ, we read journal exerts from his first visit to Freeport (not much more than a tent city), and the only people who've even heard of elves, dwarve, and only rumors of gnomes, are people who've been to Faydwer.

Moreover, we have no reference of Moradhim (Unless it's Blackburrow), Highbourne, Klick'Anon (Unless it was the gnomish outpost in Solusek's what was it? B?  A?).  And the opening up of the Unkempt Wood.  As I had stated before, my problem isn't with the lore that they have so much as the timespan in which it all exists.  If they had made EQOA span a millenia and set it a millenia in the past, then it would be more plausible.  The problem I have is with who they put as contemporaries.

I'll have to check about Moradhim cause I don't remember hearing about that.  Highbourne *I think* was the lands occupied by the Erudites which was a lush Savana style area.  There's actually a mission from Qeynos where you have to talk on behalf of one of the Bayles ruling Qeynos.  Klick'Anon was and is the city of the gnomes in EQOA where they built vast hordes of tinkered minions.  Still remember venturing into that clockwork clogged city and seeing those weird little gnomes runnin about.  Klick'Anon was located close to the HighElven city where the Fayspire was. 

Another thing is with the EQOA:Frontiers expansion the Erudites were preparing to leave Highbourne venturing to the newly discovered continent they called Arcadin.  In Arcadin you will find "Erud" who talks about the newly discovered continent and why they named their city Prexus.  I believe it is after Erud's death that they name the city of the Erudites Erudin. 

Actually, Klik'anon was on the southern border of Lavastorm, and the city was eventually destroyed. Moradhim was an outpost of the Dwarves, if I remember it was a mine that they built into a small city so that they could have an outpost on Tunaria (what later came to be named Antonica), it wasn't Blackburrow as Blackburrow was Blackburrow in EQoA. As for the Darklight Woods, they have always been there, and I recall hearing that they were one of those zones that were in the original design documents for EQ but never made it into the game, much like the zone that linked Blackburrow's Northern entrance and Everfrost. Also, Highbourne wasn't so much a city as it was a staging area for the Erudites trek to the newly discovered land of Odus where they planned to build their city Arcadin. The city was never going to be named in honor of Prexus, although the Erudites did ask Prexus for his blessing on their journey, and built a shrine underwater to honor him. And it is correct, Erud was alive at this time, and it wasn't until after his death that they renamed Arcadin to Erudin. Also, the Erudites were NOT split into the two factions at this time, they were still whole, although the practices of Necromancy were looked down upon and thus were practiced in secret. It wasn't until they moved to Odus that is was outlawed and the Erudites split.The Elves, b/c there weren't really distinct races of High and Wood Elf yet, were still living on Tunaria in the cities of Fayspire and Telethin. We were starting to see the division that would eventually cause the Elves to evolve into two separate and distinct races, but at that time they were still one. The two Elven cities were located in what is now known as Everfrost, but at that time the ice had not claimed the area yet and it was still green and warm, although the ice was encroaching upon the area.The biggest mistake they made w/ EQoA was saying that it was set, firmly, 500 years before EQlive. That threw off the known time-lines and history and totally invalidated the game, and everything in it, for alot of people and it's quite understandable. What they should have done was say that it was set in Norrath's past and left it at that. If it wasn't for that one proclamation, everything else could have been made to fit, but what can ya do? I enjoyed playing EQoA, it was a neat look into Norrath as it existed before EQlive, and it matters not to me if everyone doesn't take it as canon.

[Nocturnal Aby]

My question wasn't regarding the existance of those places and the like, it was the absence of their existance in EQ, (and equally as confusing, the fact that some stuff they decided to put in EQ2).  If there had been clockwork creations, malfunctioning or not, much less an entire city of them, why would there not have been evidence of them in EQ?  What HAPPENED to Moradhim and Klik'Anon?  Why would the dwarves not still have that outpost, or at least one of the nearby civilizations, or even their own civilization, have record of its existance?  Same with Klik'Anon.

And as I said, in EQ, we have exerts of Erud's Journal saying that it wasn't until people made it across the Ocean of Tears that anyone from that time period had even heard of elves, dwarves, and the like.

I know it's long, but here is the documentation we have of Erud's first trip to Faydwer from EQ:

Volume I

Journal Excerpt One

    The company with which I travel has reached the settlement of Freeport, little more than a collection of tents and wooden huts guarded by ruffians and crawling with brigands and men of a most scrupulous nature. Despite the filth and seediness of the settlement, I must admire there are wonders to be found here unlike any I have laid eyes on in all of Antonica. Tradesmen peddle these strange wares gather from across the Ocean of Tears on a continent said to be filled with lush forests and strange humanoids, some of which are fairly hospitable to visiting foreigners. I can only assume that we humans are as strange to them as they are to us. My companions and I will attempt to charter passage on one of the trading vessels as soon as we have secured the necessary provisions for the journey.

Journal Excerpt Two

    Never have I dreamt of a body of water so vast as the Ocean of Tears, although my home city of Qeynos rests against the western coast of Antonica I have never voyaged upon a ship for such great distances and so far from any visible coastline. The traders that we have purchased passage from recount tales of several islands that have been visible in the distance through the ocean mist and fog. They spoke of an island of elven women that slay any man who sets foot on their sacred shores, of goblins that live in the shallows and underwater caverns, and of one-eyed giants that hunt sharks like our fishermen hunt fish. There are even tales of lost ships that haunt the ocean, manned by crews of the dead. How much truth there is to any of the tales is questionable but if anything, they make for entertaining stories to pass the time at sea.

Journal Excerpt Three

    The ship that carries my companions and I has docked on the shore of a region called the Butcherblock Mountains. Apparently this is the homeland of the Dwarves, a race of short, stocky, gruff, and hairy people with a fondness for battle and beer. I'm afraid I have not much in common with the dwarven folk but the warriors of my company seem to have taken a liking to them. There are none among us who speak their language but a few of the dwarves that reside near the docks have learned enough of our human tongue to answer basic questions we have presented to them, and beneath their gruff and rugged mannerisms they seem to possess a great deal of patience.

Volume II

Journal Excerpt Four

    The dwarves have been kind enough to invite us to their home city of Kaladim, a rather stuffy and cramped subterranean city built into one of the taller mountains of the Butcherblock range. The most impressive sight so far has been the enormous statue that has been carved into the very side of the mountain. Apparently it is the visage of the great dwarven king. Some of our company has taken a liking to the strong brews of the Dwarves. I fear it may be time to move on before their minds get dulled by the intoxicating substances, and the oppressiveness of being constantly surrounded by stone and the clatter of the mines echoing through out the caverns is wearing on my sanity.

Journal Excerpt Five

    My company has left the dwarven capitol of Kaladim and now journeys into the deep forests of the Faydark, home of the elves. We have had the fortune of hiring a scout and translator for our journey into the land of the elves. It seems this odd individual, Tolsarian, is a Half-Elf, I had heard union between an elf and human but have never before actually had the opportunity to meet one. I found Tolsarian to be a very intelligent individual and he possessed a vast knowledge of the Faydarks and its many inhabitants. Tolsarian spoke little however of his heritage, he spoke of the humans and elves as if neither were his people, and I sensed a deep sadness in his demeanor. Tolsarians spirits did seem to lift a bit when we reached the tree city of the wood elves, the Fier'Dal I believe it was that Tolsarian called them, and were greeted by an elven maiden that appeared before us as if she had stepped forth from the very bark of the tree before us.

Journal Excerpt Six

    I've found my stay in the tree city of Kelethin much more pleasing than my stay in the stifling halls of Kaladim. Some of my company do not agree with my pleasure, they find the wine of the elves to be far less enjoyable than the rich brews of the dwarves. These drunkards in my company have such simple minds to base so much of their enjoyment off the imbibing of intoxicating beverages. These Fier'Dal are a strange people, even stranger to me than the dwarves. The dwarves are blunt of speech and manner and their simple ways are easy for even the weakest minded of my companions to understand. The Fier'Dal however are puzzling. I have no doubt that they are an intelligent people but they are uninterested in scholastics and conventional knowledge. Instead these aptly named Wood Elves are frivolous and mysterious, spending all their time sneaking about the forests, caring for its wild beasts, and singing and dancing in their tree top city. Their history and lore seems to be told mostly in folklore and poetry, though they have a written language, which according to Tolsarian, is shared with their relatives the High Elves. They are however, a good people, and there is wisdom in their poetry and song.

Volume III

Journal Excerpt Seven

    Our friend Tolsarian has led us from Kelethin deeper into the Faydark to the High Elf, or Koada'Dal as they are called in their own tongue, city of Felwithe. I must say compared to the tree city of Kelethin, Felwithe is indeed a splendid sight to behold. It's white walls and palaces soaring high above the canopy of the forest. I am surprised to find that the Koada'Dal are much taller than their Fier'Dal relatives, their complexion is much paler and their hair and eyes the color of the stars and skies instead of the earth and trees. We received a far less hospitable welcome to the city of the High Elves than we had received in Kelethin. The guards at the cities gate questioned Tolsarian for quite some time and looked over each member of my company thoroughly before admitting us within the outer walls. Once inside the city proper it became apparent that while the Fier'Dal are wise, the Koada'Dal are the intelligent branch of the elven family. I have beheld wonders in this city beyond any I have imagined. In the northern quarter of the city is a tower where the elven sorcerers study and store their magical tomes. If only I coulg gain admittance to the tower and browse the texts myself.

Journal Excerpt Eight

    A member of my company has acquired a set of High Elven tomes that he claims have come from the tower of the Keepers of the Art, the name the Koada'Dal sorcerers have given to themselves. He has not mentioned how the books came to be in his possession and I dare not ask until we are far beyond the gates of this city. Tolsarian has agreed to take us through the Faydark to the borders of the Steamfont Mountains, home of the Gnomes, creatures of distant relation to the dwarves of Butcherblock. I do not look forward to another stay in a subterranean city but from what I have heard of the gnomes, the discomfort may be rewarded with knowledge pertaining to my interests. I am also eager to be away from the condescending nature of the Koada'Dal, despite the magnificence of their city and the wonders they possess. Some of my company find my reaction to the demeanor of the high elves to be amusing but I do not share in their humor.

Journal Excerpt Nine

    The Steamfont Mountains are unlike any mountain range I have beheld. Great geysers jettison steam and scalding water into the air and mist and fog blankets the ground and sky. Tolsarian has left our company for the time being and will await return at a small elven outpost in the Faydark no far from the borders of Steamfont. I have begun research to decipher the texts that were acquired in Felwithe but fear that what few tomes I have brought with me on the journey are not sufficient for proper study and I will not likely make much progress with the elven texts until I am able to return to my study in Qeynos.

Volume IV

Journal Excerpt Ten

    My company and I have arrived and been welcomed to the Gnomish city of Ak'Anon, and I must say, of all the things I have seen on this journey the city of the gnomes is the most perplexing. The gnomes seem to be equally adept at creating material marvels as well as magical ones. There are contraptions here far more mechanically complex than those built by any culture on Norrath, including the advanced human society from which I hail. Unlike the high elves of Felwithe, the gnomes are eager to show my companions and I the marvels they have created, and are far more curious about our past, stories, and belongings than any other peoples we have encountered here in Faydwer. I believe the gnomes attitude toward my company will allow me to inquire about their magical practices and perhaps even view the tomes they have catalogued in their sorcerers academy, The Library Mechanamagica.

Journal Excerpt Eleven

    A gnome magician of the Eldrich Collective, the name givento their arcane order, has allowed me entry to the Library Mechanamagica and given me quick instruction on the basics of the gnome language. In exchange for allowing the Eldrich Collective to examine the elven tomes I acquired in Felwithe they are giving me several copies of gnomish arcane books containing theories and practical applications of the magical arts. I am grateful that my journey has led me to the gnomish city despite my original apprehension and assumption that they would be more similar to their distant relatives the dwarves. It is apparent that the gnomes are highly civilized and extremely intelligent, but I fear they are a bit too trusting of outsiders and that congenial trait may one day cause them to suffer. In a few days time my company and I shall once again meet up with the half-breed Tolsarian and he shall escort us back through the Faydark and Butcherblock Mountains to the docks so that we may charter passage on a ship back to Antonica. That should give the drunkards among my companions sufficient time to recover from their comsumption of Gnomish Spirits. From Freeport we shall charter another ship to carry us around the coastline of Antonica and back to our homes in Qeynos. I am eager to return to my study and learn all I can of these elven and gnomish arcane tomes I have acquired.

[Nocturnal Aby]

We see from his journal, that the mechanations of the gnomes, the arcane prowess of the elves, and the existance of the races themselves are entirely new to the Antonicans of his day (and I call it Antonica, because from his writing, it seems the elves had left it some time ago).

What's more, in the story in EQ we recieve of Miragul, we learn that Miragul spent thousands of years aquiring knowledge, artifacts, and power.  This before his arcane abilities would no longer sustain his corporeal form.  The quote is from a scholar who studied the life of Miragul since he (the scholar) was young:

Ubzial Iyeaql says 'I have been so busy talking, that I've had no time to do research! Seeing as how I'm partial to you, I will take the time to continue the story. Miragul built fantastic laboratories where he experimented with all the magic he learned. He also practiced on the living, particularly creatures found in the Frigid Planes. You sometimes will see the results within the menagerie now. But, that's getting a little ahead of our story. For many years, thousands in fact, Miragul continued increasing his knowledge and power until he realized that his body was finally failing. He was becoming very old. Let's wait to continue this. I have to talk business with my friend Mannis McGuyett.'

Earlier in the account, it states that Miragul was born in Erudin, before the civil war, and before the Council of Erudin had found out that some were practicing Necromancy, and had branded it Heresy (total tangent, ironic that Erudites view necromancy as heresy, and the Iksar viewed all arcane form BUT necromancy as heresy..)

This would put the time the elves left Antonica several thousands of years before EQ, and would give proper time for them to develop into distinct races.

I wish a developer, anywhere, really, could address these descrepencies.  Tell us, "Yeah, we screwed up" or "That was the original plan, but we decided to go a different direction," or stuff like that.  What would be GREAT is to see a timeline of events (including rough idea of the years during and inbetween certain events) that the developers try to hold to.  We know that races like the Elves, gnomes, and Erudites would have such things, shoot, even the human cities would have records of history, though we all know the History books in Freeport are a different story than the reality.

I'm not trying to say EQOA lore is invalid, only when in the timeline it happened.  Did the elves live in Fayspire before leaving Antonica?  Sure!  Did the Erudites have a staging area in Highbourne while the prepared to move to Odus?  Undoubtedly, I'm sure they couldn't stand the ineptitude of the humans then any more than they could now, though at the time of Highbourne, I'd imagine they still looked pretty much like humans, as it would have taken quite a few generations (depending on the number of people who decided to go to Odus) before distinct physical characteristics would have began to develop.

Was Erudin Arcadia before it was Erudin?  Why not?  Was the Order of Marr's Fist the fist bastion of the Marr twin in the Commonlands?  Why not?

But were all these things contemporaries?  Not nearly as likely..

[Zarafein]

The tousend of years story of miragul must be a mistake by the scholar, since erudin itself is by eq2(attack on nexus is before eruds 800 birthday) and as far as i know even by eq1 lore not this old. Imo the odus stuff is just too early for eqoa,while  the beginning split of the elddar elves into wood and high elves is nice.

[Mary the Prophetess]

One need look only as far as our own real life history to find rationales and reasons why timelines are askew in Norrath.

The example of the 'historical' King Arthur quickly comes to mind:  Was Arthur really Lucius Artorius Castus the leader of a Samatian feoderati cavalry unit stationed in Britain during the Second Century?  Or was he the great warrior leader, Riothamus, who died fighting the Visigoths in Gaul during the Fifth Century? Perhaps he was Arthwyr ap Pedr ap Cyngar, King of Dyfed of the Deisi during the late Sixth Century?  Perhaps he is a composite of several of these or others?  No one knows with certainty.

The point being that in real life it was not at all uncommon for scholars to simply 'fill-in-the-blanks' when confronted with incomplete information.  Additionally, if they were writing about events far removed from their own time, they felt nothing of simply putting their own 'spin' on the story to meet the political realities of their day.

If such is true in the real world, how much more so in Norrath?

The time lines may indeed be misaligned.  The facts may be contradictory.  There are many rationalizations which may be brought forward to explain these inconsistencies.  

[Rezikai]

The time lines may indeed be misaligned.  The facts may be contradictory.  There are many rationalizations which may be brought forward to explain these inconsistencies. 

---

/agree w/Mary....

Also as for KlickAnon, if i remember right.. and Cusa may remeber this better then myself, the characters in Champions of Norrath (and/or Return to Arms) talk about Klick Anon being destroyed (by a mining accident involving Lavastorm, b/c they were so close to it) and the gnome refugees moving somewhere esle. I know I remember hearing it in that game.

 I do agree with most.. that the only real issue is that the Timeline to EQoA is set not far back enough, but I'll give the Devs some leeway. Odus was still named oduse (eyes Amana) hehe. Antonius BayleII renamed much of the lands under Qeynosian rule after his father and named in Antonica. While many of the evil races in game trolls/ogres/Darkelfs especially still refer to it as Tunaria.

As for Moradahim (dwarf starting city) it was tiny.. an outpost basically. Might be they wrote the lore for them to fit EQoA so that game could include those races,

[Cusashorn]

Rezikai@Najena wrote:

Also as for KlickAnon, if i remember right.. and Cusa may remeber this better then myself, the characters in Champions of Norrath (and/or Return to Arms) talk about Klick Anon being destroyed (by a mining accident involving Lavastorm, b/c they were so close to it) and the gnome refugees moving somewhere esle. I know I remember hearing it in that game.

I don't. There was no mention of any cities that ever existed anywhere on Antonica in Champions of Norrath. I know you eventually travel to a dark elven city (not Neriak), and the PIT of Ill Omen (not associated with the Lake of Ill Omen), and one area up north that isn't Everfrost or there-about.

[DrkVsr]

Return to Arms has you travel to GFay and Kelethin (or at least a village/city in the trees)

It starts out as a Pit, but you pull the plug and flood it