About Transmuted Item : Fragments

MirageKnight · 07-27-2007, 06:04 PM

Fragments of each tier have became too cheap in broker. Right now, T7 fragments are cheaper than cheapest treasure item sold to vendor. This means, if trasmuter get fragments hurt his pocket which can't be used later on. As for example, I have 4-5 powder while I have 500+ fragments which I got while trying to get powders from T7 items. And the WORST part is I have to sell cheaper than vendor could have bought the item before transmuting. Listing up couple possible solutions :

Fix ratio of fragment vs powder chance. Dice is pretty bad as is.
Allow fragments be sold to vendors
Allow fragments to be used on Deity relics

BigChiefJJ · 07-27-2007, 06:24 PM

This is actually just the opposite for T4, T5, & T6. Usually the powders are fairly cheap and the fragments are expensive as transmuters are still leveling up and you need more fragments to make treasured adornments than you need powders. However once you get to T7 people are actually making adornments for their gear and are using the legendary / fabled adornments that use just as many powders as fragments. You also don't have transmuters grinding on treasured items so there is not much of a market for the fragments.

Looking at fragments in T1, T2 & T3 we could say the same thing - those are usually selling for a few copper as you only need a couple for each combine.

I'd actually like to see some kind of house item or such that would be player crafted that you could put in X Fragments/powders/infusions and get out 1 powder/infusion/mana or put in 1 mana/infusion/powder and get X infusions/powders/framgents.

MirageKnight · 07-27-2007, 06:54 PM

Think missing crital point of this. Harvests = free from nodes (can discard if too many) Tramsuted item = not free (treasures can be sold as $$ to vendors, thus this is trading) For my server T4-7 are pretty much same. Fragments sold at cheaper than actually treasured items of that tier sold. But main point is that extra fragments (or any trasmuted items) need some use if extra. Transmuter won't get at best ratio at any time given. When some of tramsuted item became extra, those can't be sold to vendor and destroying them are same as throwing $$ that could have worth.

Siogai · 07-27-2007, 07:21 PM

Tramsuted item = not free (treasures can be sold as $$ to vendors, thus this is trading

Free if you farm it yourself or crush quest-reward treasured items. Transmuting only costs anything if you make it cost anything, apart from your fuels to craft adornments. Since it doesn't cost you anything (or doesn't have to, if you don't make it) to make the powders, fragments, etc. then destroying it isn't actually losing you any coin. You're, maybe, losing the unrealised potential to make some money at re-selling these items, which means you're losing profit, which is not the same thing as throwing money away.

MirageKnight · 07-27-2007, 07:47 PM

Harvests = have no value unless sold to broker Items = have value to vendor (and to broker) After tramsuting Fragments = no value (almost none to broker too now) Starting point is totally different with 2. "free if you farm it yoursle" isnt right point when trasmuting is actually changing value of item.

Calthine · 07-27-2007, 08:58 PM

Just for the discussion, extensive testing during beta and right after EOF went live gave the following ratios for any transmute: 75% - common result (fragments for Treasured) 20% - rare result (powders for Treasured) 5% - both results. (I'd link the numbers and ensuing discussion, but they were on the old forum.)

Deson · 07-28-2007, 12:20 AM

If viable, I'd like to go with the latter suggestion in this thread/post. Combine-up could be a great raw management tool for transmuters to better respond to their markets and remove the current over-reliance on the RNG.

Lasai · 07-28-2007, 03:28 AM

Siogai wrote:

Tramsuted item = not free (treasures can be sold as $$ to vendors, thus this is trading
Free if you farm it yourself or crush quest-reward treasured items. Transmuting only costs anything if you make it cost anything, apart from your fuels to craft adornments. Since it doesn't cost you anything (or doesn't have to, if you don't make it) to make the powders, fragments, etc. then destroying it isn't actually losing you any coin. You're, maybe, losing the unrealised potential to make some money at re-selling these items, which means you're losing profit, which is not the same thing as throwing money away.

Ok I hate this mindset. Its not about COST, it is about VALUE, and LOST VALUE.

Harvestables.. look at the tag. NO VALUE. No NPC broker will even look at them.

Fuel has value. Fuel + Harvestables = Product worth FUEL COST to vendor. That IS the inherent VALUE of a crafted item.

Treasured loots have VALUE. The hard number of coin assigned to that item by the NPC broker IS its base value. I don't care how you aquire them, they have a hard coded VALUE.

Now, take that item with VALUE and transmute it. You now have lost an item with VALUE and replaced it with an item tagged NO VALUE.

By any logic at all, converting an item of value into an item of no value is LOSS.

MirageKnight · 07-28-2007, 10:11 AM

To help those who are having problem picturing this point of this issue: Player A and B got exact same treasure 10 items. Player A sold 10 of them to vendor : 10gp (say sold at 10gp to vendor) x 10 = 1pp benefit Player B trasmuted 10 of them and got 10 fragments : fragments can't be sold to vendor and market selling at 3gp = 3gp x 10 = 30gp possible benefit Player A ended with 100gp benefit without Trasmuting Player B ended with 30gp by Trasmuting (and cannot sold instantly for selling to player, price varies too depends on how other players selling) So can picture what's wrong? There is NO other use of fragments at moment but making adornments. But trying to make powder can make even more fragments and totally by own luck. If person like me ened up with extra 500+ fragments by now since EoF start, have to throw away 40pp because of transmuting item? Make this short; if transmuted item is extra = TRASH which can't even sold or used (with system we have on live at momemnt) For this reason, I would like to see other use of fragments or any transmuted items, especially when having "extra" of these.

MirageKnight · 07-28-2007, 10:25 AM

Calthine wrote:

Just for the discussion, extensive testing during beta and right after EOF went live gave the following ratios for any transmute: 75% - common result (fragments for Treasured) 20% - rare result (powders for Treasured) 5% - both results. (I'd link the numbers and ensuing discussion, but they were on the old forum.)

Along with this ratio subject, EQ2 won't track if one transmuter's last transmuting was common or rare. 10 transmuting is very possibly ended up with 10 fragments as 75% is chance. Either case, any "extra" would suffer transmuter's pocket (or wheover asked transmuter to transmute item) at this point.

07-27-2007, 06:04 PM	#1
MirageKnight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	Fragments of each tier have became too cheap in broker. Right now, T7 fragments are cheaper than cheapest treasure item sold to vendor. This means, if trasmuter get fragments hurt his pocket which can't be used later on. As for example, I have 4-5 powder while I have 500+ fragments which I got while trying to get powders from T7 items. And the WORST part is I have to sell cheaper than vendor could have bought the item before transmuting. Listing up couple possible solutions : Fix ratio of fragment vs powder chance. Dice is pretty bad as is. Allow fragments be sold to vendors Allow fragments to be used on Deity relics

07-27-2007, 08:58 PM	#6
Calthine ZAM EQII Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,439	Just for the discussion, extensive testing during beta and right after EOF went live gave the following ratios for any transmute: 75% - common result (fragments for Treasured) 20% - rare result (powders for Treasured) 5% - both results. (I'd link the numbers and ensuing discussion, but they were on the old forum.) __________________ Please visit my non-gaming Blog! or follow me on Twitter!

07-28-2007, 12:20 AM	#7
Deson Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	If viable, I'd like to go with the latter suggestion in this thread/post. Combine-up could be a great raw management tool for transmuters to better respond to their markets and remove the current over-reliance on the RNG. __________________ I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom. I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break...

07-28-2007, 03:28 AM	#8
Lasai Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: my own basement Posts: 1,295	Siogai wrote: Tramsuted item = not free (treasures can be sold as $$ to vendors, thus this is trading Free if you farm it yourself or crush quest-reward treasured items. Transmuting only costs anything if you make it cost anything, apart from your fuels to craft adornments. Since it doesn't cost you anything (or doesn't have to, if you don't make it) to make the powders, fragments, etc. then destroying it isn't actually losing you any coin. You're, maybe, losing the unrealised potential to make some money at re-selling these items, which means you're losing profit, which is not the same thing as throwing money away. Ok I hate this mindset. Its not about COST, it is about VALUE, and LOST VALUE. Harvestables.. look at the tag. NO VALUE. No NPC broker will even look at them. Fuel has value. Fuel + Harvestables = Product worth FUEL COST to vendor. That IS the inherent VALUE of a crafted item. Treasured loots have VALUE. The hard number of coin assigned to that item by the NPC broker IS its base value. I don't care how you aquire them, they have a hard coded VALUE. Now, take that item with VALUE and transmute it. You now have lost an item with VALUE and replaced it with an item tagged NO VALUE. By any logic at all, converting an item of value into an item of no value is LOSS. __________________ Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It only frustrates you and annoys the pig.

07-28-2007, 10:25 AM	#10
MirageKnight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	Calthine wrote: Just for the discussion, extensive testing during beta and right after EOF went live gave the following ratios for any transmute: 75% - common result (fragments for Treasured) 20% - rare result (powders for Treasured) 5% - both results. (I'd link the numbers and ensuing discussion, but they were on the old forum.) Along with this ratio subject, EQ2 won't track if one transmuter's last transmuting was common or rare. 10 transmuting is very possibly ended up with 10 fragments as 75% is chance. Either case, any "extra" would suffer transmuter's pocket (or wheover asked transmuter to transmute item) at this point.

07-27-2007, 06:24 PM	#2
BigChiefJJ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 415	This is actually just the opposite for T4, T5, & T6. Usually the powders are fairly cheap and the fragments are expensive as transmuters are still leveling up and you need more fragments to make treasured adornments than you need powders. However once you get to T7 people are actually making adornments for their gear and are using the legendary / fabled adornments that use just as many powders as fragments. You also don't have transmuters grinding on treasured items so there is not much of a market for the fragments. Looking at fragments in T1, T2 & T3 we could say the same thing - those are usually selling for a few copper as you only need a couple for each combine. I'd actually like to see some kind of house item or such that would be player crafted that you could put in X Fragments/powders/infusions and get out 1 powder/infusion/mana or put in 1 mana/infusion/powder and get X infusions/powders/framgents.

07-27-2007, 06:54 PM	#3
MirageKnight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	Think missing crital point of this. Harvests = free from nodes (can discard if too many) Tramsuted item = not free (treasures can be sold as $$ to vendors, thus this is trading) For my server T4-7 are pretty much same. Fragments sold at cheaper than actually treasured items of that tier sold. But main point is that extra fragments (or any trasmuted items) need some use if extra. Transmuter won't get at best ratio at any time given. When some of tramsuted item became extra, those can't be sold to vendor and destroying them are same as throwing $$ that could have worth.

07-27-2007, 07:21 PM	#4
Siogai Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 247	Tramsuted item = not free (treasures can be sold as $$ to vendors, thus this is trading Free if you farm it yourself or crush quest-reward treasured items. Transmuting only costs anything if you make it cost anything, apart from your fuels to craft adornments. Since it doesn't cost you anything (or doesn't have to, if you don't make it) to make the powders, fragments, etc. then destroying it isn't actually losing you any coin. You're, maybe, losing the unrealised potential to make some money at re-selling these items, which means you're losing profit, which is not the same thing as throwing money away.

07-27-2007, 07:47 PM	#5
MirageKnight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	Harvests = have no value unless sold to broker Items = have value to vendor (and to broker) After tramsuting Fragments = no value (almost none to broker too now) Starting point is totally different with 2. "free if you farm it yoursle" isnt right point when trasmuting is actually changing value of item.

07-28-2007, 10:11 AM	#9
MirageKnight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	To help those who are having problem picturing this point of this issue: Player A and B got exact same treasure 10 items. Player A sold 10 of them to vendor : 10gp (say sold at 10gp to vendor) x 10 = 1pp benefit Player B trasmuted 10 of them and got 10 fragments : fragments can't be sold to vendor and market selling at 3gp = 3gp x 10 = 30gp possible benefit Player A ended with 100gp benefit without Trasmuting Player B ended with 30gp by Trasmuting (and cannot sold instantly for selling to player, price varies too depends on how other players selling) So can picture what's wrong? There is NO other use of fragments at moment but making adornments. But trying to make powder can make even more fragments and totally by own luck. If person like me ened up with extra 500+ fragments by now since EoF start, have to throw away 40pp because of transmuting item? Make this short; if transmuted item is extra = TRASH which can't even sold or used (with system we have on live at momemnt) For this reason, I would like to see other use of fragments or any transmuted items, especially when having "extra" of these.