Many MT raid guild Mystics left out there?

ecoskii · 03-02-2007, 12:36 PM

How many of the Top-3 raiding guilds on any server still have a mystic as there normal MT shammie? I'm still winning the argument at the moment (Ancestry for Temp procs + melee ward + 'who cares about a mere 200 hp' + 'defilers have attitude problems' SMILEY ) versus average-geared defilers. I really think that the balance between a good fully fabled & mastered mystic/defiler is too small to notice but too many people still focus on pre-eof and pre-aa HP numbers.

Thunderthyze · 03-06-2007, 12:08 PM

Totally agree with you OP. Some guilds will play a defiler in the MT group "just because he's a defiler". Some raid guilds take defilers with pretty poor stats and gear "just because they're a defiler".

Personally I don't take it as an insult as I quite like being in sole charge of the MA melee group. When I play the MT group I am always being compared on the parse with the Templar which will ignore the damage avoided as well as the cures and the debuffs. I have kept the MA up solo, when the MT group wiped, long enough for them to rezz up and avoid the wipe.

If the defilers wants to brag on about just how uber they are and how the raid will fall apart without them then let them. I've never met a self effacing defiler truth be told. I'm sure they're out there somewhere though.

Jatofyr324 · 03-06-2007, 05:31 PM

I wish my guild was top 3 on Oasis SMILEY

. Well, the only time I'm in the MT group is when our Defiler is out. Oh well, I get to DPS more, and still get 2nd on the heal parse, so I'm not complaining.

LadyKahlan · 03-07-2007, 01:04 PM

I am a MT mystic on AB server, in one of the top raiding guilds.

There isn't much difference btw the two classes, and it should come down to the best geared/skill of player.

I've been in the mt group for a long time and thru many expansions. I normally parse top or second on parse. My guild has tried defilers but always come back to a mystic..ancestry is just one of our tricks we can use in MT group. But reality is this, with the shaman class it comes down to the skill of the player. My guild had many server first in past expansions and I was always in the MT group.

LadyKahlan · 03-07-2007, 01:10 PM

Sorry another thought Pls don't take the parse as a gauge of your abilities, it doesn't record debuffs etc. If i'm the only mystic on a raid, the defiler and I have to both debuff, our debuffs don't show how much damage we prevented. Making a parse isnt a true recording of what we do in a raid. Shamans are the backbone of a raid. A smart guild should know this, we are the unsung heros of raids. My guild will not raid without shamans. Depending on what we are fighting, dictates how many shamans we take.

DevilDi · 03-07-2007, 01:16 PM

LadyKahlan wrote:

Sorry another thought Pls don't take the parse as a gauge of your abilities, it doesn't record debuffs etc. If i'm the only mystic on a raid, the defiler and I have to both debuff, our debuffs don't show how much damage we prevented. Making a parse isnt a true recording of what we do in a raid. Shamans are the backbone of a raid. A smart guild should know this, we are the unsung heros of raids. My guild will not raid without shamans. Depending on what we are fighting, dictates how many shamans we take.

I don't see it being possible to successfully raid (consistantly) without a Shaman.

Jatofyr324 · 03-07-2007, 05:48 PM

Defiler IS better suited for the MT groups b/c of buffs. Thats what it comes down too, unless the defiler has an app2 Gward than a Defiler should be in a MT group. I dunno why you would complain though, since you're not in the MT group you don't have to cast Gwards which = more time to DPS which = more fun (for me at least.)

ScurvyTRatt · 03-07-2007, 06:12 PM

Ah the beauty of being on a PvP server. No Defilers on the Qeynos side to put into MT groups! And if any Defilers show up we can kill them... or more commonly pound on them until we get bored or someone else shows up to finish the job.

I honestly do not know which would be better. I would assume go with the one that gives the best numbers. And regardless, picking up the insta-cast cures makes Mystics great for non MT groups when fighting area DoT-ing monsters. And putting those good group melee buffs on a group of swashies makes for some great DPS for the raid.

Zeliedog · 03-09-2007, 01:07 PM

LadyKahlan wrote:

Sorry another thought Pls don't take the parse as a gauge of your abilities, it doesn't record debuffs etc. If i'm the only mystic on a raid, the defiler and I have to both debuff, our debuffs don't show how much damage we prevented. Making a parse isnt a true recording of what we do in a raid. Shamans are the backbone of a raid. A smart guild should know this, we are the unsung heros of raids. My guild will not raid without shamans. Depending on what we are fighting, dictates how many shamans we take.

I'm a MT shaman in a successful multi-guild raid alliance on Lucan. Actually, debuffs go a long way to keeping me at the top of the healing parse because reducing DPS and attack speed make it easier for my wards to keep up with the damage. If my wards keep up then the other healers are healing relatively less. So although you can't "see" how much damage your debuffs prevented, they still are directly responsible for keeping you at the top of the parse. Still, being at the top of the parse doesn't mean I'm a "better" healer than the druids and clerics. We should be at the top of the parse because wards absorb damage first. The higher I am above the other healers just indicates how easy the fight was (and that there weren't many big AoEs hitting the DPS groups). Lualua Bloodmoss, Mystic of TEMPEST

Munter78 · 03-09-2007, 06:45 PM

Sorry to say, but most that say there is a slim difference between the two classes are far, far off.

Defilers can heal much more then a mystic. Spiritual Circle OWNS. They add more HP then the mystic, by a good amount. Sure we add alot more STA, but in the higher end level of the game, most have already reached the point of where diminishing returns has already kicked in.

There is no reason to have a mystic in the MT group unless a competent defiler isnt present. Place the mystic in the melee group let him heal them with a druid if needed. Focus the mystic on debuffs since they are much better then a defilers.

Not to mention with all the new canni and upgrades for the defiler....they have unlimited power to easily keep over 1000hps if needed on certain mobs. (IS raids for example)

Triyton · 03-14-2007, 03:47 PM

Our guild got a defiler and he has an attitude, but he is well geared, and is a friend of the MT.

I can understand not raiding without a Shaman, but then raid content may be limited without a Brigand, and even the lack of a Dirge or mezzers can change raid plans sometimes.

Debuffing isn't an argument, both can and should debuff, if anything you are more free to keep up debuffs outside the MT group.

Ancestry (the proc increaser) is huge, but hard to quantify. For instance, a single spell or piece of gear going off a couple extra times on the MT could mean the difference between keeping or losing aggro, which could keep one or more raid members alive, ultimately making the difference between a kill and a wipe. Multiply that by twenty various spells and items on the MT.

Defilers have this Soul Ward thing which seems to be new so I guess it is a new AA, and probably also useable only within the group. That seems to be used for pulls, but most pulls go okay anyway, Ancestry lasts all fight every fight.

Thatdumbg · 03-14-2007, 04:03 PM

With the coming of EoF I betrayed to Defiler to better serve my MT group. I don't regret it, although I occasionally miss torpor and prophetic aegis.

Jatofyr324 · 03-14-2007, 08:17 PM

The only reason I don't betray is because defilers are overdue for a nerf; if not the Mystic needs some serious upgrades.

Munter78 · 03-18-2007, 03:17 AM

Defilers Soul Ward is actually raid wide. Which I feel is unfair due to Oberon line being group only SMILEY

Not to mention their limited pet (spiritual circle) is like 10000x better then our attendant.

Zeliedog · 03-22-2007, 10:00 AM

Munter78 wrote:

Defilers Soul Ward is actually raid wide. Which I feel is unfair due to Oberon line being group only Not to mention their limited pet (spiritual circle) is like 10000x better then our attendant.

Actually it has been commented to me that Soul Ward was made raid-wide so that Mystics would still be viable in MT groups...dunno.

olo · 03-25-2007, 04:35 PM

The main reason that our guild has a defiler in the MT group instead of a Mystic is for more HPs. My STA can't really comepete with a Defilers raw health. However, they are missing out on oberron, which i think is a shame.

Boli32 · 03-28-2007, 08:16 PM

We choose our Guild MT shammy on pure skill alone, defiler speced for debuffing takes his spot in the MA group and our exceptional Mystic in the MT group working his little dwarven [Removed for Content] off. Why have stats when you cna have skill SMILEY

Rayche · 04-04-2007, 07:25 PM

On our raids I'm MT Shammy 90% of the time (Except when I raid with a force that doesn't know me.) It's true about skill. (Or at least about paying attention and doing your job) I'm loving my Mystic even more than ever now that I'm spending most of my time raiding. We really make a difference.

Judist · 04-06-2007, 01:45 PM

One of the Defiler buffs not mentioned is a tank-buff that proc's DPS/Haste debuffs on mobs that hit him. Proc amount can be upgraded in the Defiler AA line. It's main use is seen on multi-mob encounters which will cross debuff every mob hitting the MT. On single encounters it may not be noticed.

Some top guilds out there swear by Mystics on high intensity encounters if they also have a dirge. Supposedly Mystics helping a Dirge proc stoneskin for the MT can make a big difference when tackling certain mobs. Works like a successful avoidance check by mitigating damage outright.

Helpful if your MT is taking slow but very big hits. Not so helpful on fast/medium hitting mob or mobs with light adds where stoneskin can wasted mitigating small hits.

Having a Defiler in the MT group is perfectionism. While the skills of the player matter most, fact is Defiler/Templar/Warden/Dirge/Coercer each have better buffs than their counterpart for the MT group. You can switch each class out and still be successful, but with all the "perfect group" preaching on the forums most MT's will choose these classes first. Only if the player fails horribly will they be replaced.

knightofround · 04-14-2007, 03:20 AM

Don't get me wrong, Mystics can be great Shamans. Yes, ancestry+dirge stoneskin+templar stoneskin can make a wicked combo. But the problem is opportunity cost. Ancestry and Bolster are useful in *any* type of group. However, the defiler reverse -haste -dps proc debuff is only effective in the main tank group In addition, the defiler's superior hp buffs and superior healing power are rather wasted in an off-tank group. Whereas a Mystic can contribute so much more in the form of ancestry, bolster, and CAs. In addition, the Mystic stat buffs will probably be more useful in off tank groups instead of the MT group, which should be throughly geared. So when I'm in the MT group, I'm glad I'm a defiler. But when I'm in an OT group, I wish I was a Mystic.

03-02-2007, 12:36 PM	#1
ecoskii Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 157	How many of the Top-3 raiding guilds on any server still have a mystic as there normal MT shammie? I'm still winning the argument at the moment (Ancestry for Temp procs + melee ward + 'who cares about a mere 200 hp' + 'defilers have attitude problems' ) versus average-geared defilers. I really think that the balance between a good fully fabled & mastered mystic/defiler is too small to notice but too many people still focus on pre-eof and pre-aa HP numbers.

03-06-2007, 12:08 PM	#2
Thunderthyze Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 2,050	Totally agree with you OP. Some guilds will play a defiler in the MT group "just because he's a defiler". Some raid guilds take defilers with pretty poor stats and gear "just because they're a defiler". Personally I don't take it as an insult as I quite like being in sole charge of the MA melee group. When I play the MT group I am always being compared on the parse with the Templar which will ignore the damage avoided as well as the cures and the debuffs. I have kept the MA up solo, when the MT group wiped, long enough for them to rezz up and avoid the wipe. If the defilers wants to brag on about just how uber they are and how the raid will fall apart without them then let them. I've never met a self effacing defiler truth be told. I'm sure they're out there somewhere though. __________________

03-06-2007, 05:31 PM	#3
Jatofyr324 Lord Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 58	I wish my guild was top 3 on Oasis . Well, the only time I'm in the MT group is when our Defiler is out. Oh well, I get to DPS more, and still get 2nd on the heal parse, so I'm not complaining.

03-07-2007, 01:16 PM	#6
DevilDi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 55	LadyKahlan wrote: Sorry another thought Pls don't take the parse as a gauge of your abilities, it doesn't record debuffs etc. If i'm the only mystic on a raid, the defiler and I have to both debuff, our debuffs don't show how much damage we prevented. Making a parse isnt a true recording of what we do in a raid. Shamans are the backbone of a raid. A smart guild should know this, we are the unsung heros of raids. My guild will not raid without shamans. Depending on what we are fighting, dictates how many shamans we take. I don't see it being possible to successfully raid (consistantly) without a Shaman. __________________ Panthera Leo Fury...Alchemist The Tranquil Order Befallen

03-07-2007, 06:12 PM	#8
ScurvyTRatt Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	Ah the beauty of being on a PvP server. No Defilers on the Qeynos side to put into MT groups! And if any Defilers show up we can kill them... or more commonly pound on them until we get bored or someone else shows up to finish the job. I honestly do not know which would be better. I would assume go with the one that gives the best numbers. And regardless, picking up the insta-cast cures makes Mystics great for non MT groups when fighting area DoT-ing monsters. And putting those good group melee buffs on a group of swashies makes for some great DPS for the raid. __________________

03-07-2007, 01:04 PM	#4
LadyKahlan Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 12	I am a MT mystic on AB server, in one of the top raiding guilds. There isn't much difference btw the two classes, and it should come down to the best geared/skill of player. I've been in the mt group for a long time and thru many expansions. I normally parse top or second on parse. My guild has tried defilers but always come back to a mystic..ancestry is just one of our tricks we can use in MT group. But reality is this, with the shaman class it comes down to the skill of the player. My guild had many server first in past expansions and I was always in the MT group.

03-07-2007, 01:10 PM	#5
LadyKahlan Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 12	Sorry another thought Pls don't take the parse as a gauge of your abilities, it doesn't record debuffs etc. If i'm the only mystic on a raid, the defiler and I have to both debuff, our debuffs don't show how much damage we prevented. Making a parse isnt a true recording of what we do in a raid. Shamans are the backbone of a raid. A smart guild should know this, we are the unsung heros of raids. My guild will not raid without shamans. Depending on what we are fighting, dictates how many shamans we take.

03-07-2007, 05:48 PM	#7
Jatofyr324 Lord Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 58	Defiler IS better suited for the MT groups b/c of buffs. Thats what it comes down too, unless the defiler has an app2 Gward than a Defiler should be in a MT group. I dunno why you would complain though, since you're not in the MT group you don't have to cast Gwards which = more time to DPS which = more fun (for me at least.)

03-09-2007, 01:07 PM	#9
Zeliedog Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 33	LadyKahlan wrote: Sorry another thought Pls don't take the parse as a gauge of your abilities, it doesn't record debuffs etc. If i'm the only mystic on a raid, the defiler and I have to both debuff, our debuffs don't show how much damage we prevented. Making a parse isnt a true recording of what we do in a raid. Shamans are the backbone of a raid. A smart guild should know this, we are the unsung heros of raids. My guild will not raid without shamans. Depending on what we are fighting, dictates how many shamans we take. I'm a MT shaman in a successful multi-guild raid alliance on Lucan. Actually, debuffs go a long way to keeping me at the top of the healing parse because reducing DPS and attack speed make it easier for my wards to keep up with the damage. If my wards keep up then the other healers are healing relatively less. So although you can't "see" how much damage your debuffs prevented, they still are directly responsible for keeping you at the top of the parse. Still, being at the top of the parse doesn't mean I'm a "better" healer than the druids and clerics. We should be at the top of the parse because wards absorb damage first. The higher I am above the other healers just indicates how easy the fight was (and that there weren't many big AoEs hitting the DPS groups). Lualua Bloodmoss, Mystic of TEMPEST

03-09-2007, 06:45 PM	#10
Munter78 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 108	Sorry to say, but most that say there is a slim difference between the two classes are far, far off. Defilers can heal much more then a mystic. Spiritual Circle OWNS. They add more HP then the mystic, by a good amount. Sure we add alot more STA, but in the higher end level of the game, most have already reached the point of where diminishing returns has already kicked in. There is no reason to have a mystic in the MT group unless a competent defiler isnt present. Place the mystic in the melee group let him heal them with a druid if needed. Focus the mystic on debuffs since they are much better then a defilers. Not to mention with all the new canni and upgrades for the defiler....they have unlimited power to easily keep over 1000hps if needed on certain mobs. (IS raids for example)

03-14-2007, 03:47 PM	#11
Triyton Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 170	Our guild got a defiler and he has an attitude, but he is well geared, and is a friend of the MT. I can understand not raiding without a Shaman, but then raid content may be limited without a Brigand, and even the lack of a Dirge or mezzers can change raid plans sometimes. Debuffing isn't an argument, both can and should debuff, if anything you are more free to keep up debuffs outside the MT group. Ancestry (the proc increaser) is huge, but hard to quantify. For instance, a single spell or piece of gear going off a couple extra times on the MT could mean the difference between keeping or losing aggro, which could keep one or more raid members alive, ultimately making the difference between a kill and a wipe. Multiply that by twenty various spells and items on the MT. Defilers have this Soul Ward thing which seems to be new so I guess it is a new AA, and probably also useable only within the group. That seems to be used for pulls, but most pulls go okay anyway, Ancestry lasts all fight every fight. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------ÂÂÂ* Â* There is truth in your fiction, and fiction in your truth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

03-14-2007, 04:03 PM	#12
Thatdumbg General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Worldwide Posts: 314	With the coming of EoF I betrayed to Defiler to better serve my MT group. I don't regret it, although I occasionally miss torpor and prophetic aegis. __________________ Ulfgar Sjelkriger Shaman-At-Large (and retired?) Officer, Eidolon Antonia Bayle (Old Forum Handle: Thatdumbguy)

03-14-2007, 08:17 PM	#13
Jatofyr324 Lord Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 58	The only reason I don't betray is because defilers are overdue for a nerf; if not the Mystic needs some serious upgrades.

03-18-2007, 03:17 AM	#14
Munter78 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 108	Defilers Soul Ward is actually raid wide. Which I feel is unfair due to Oberon line being group only Not to mention their limited pet (spiritual circle) is like 10000x better then our attendant.

03-22-2007, 10:00 AM	#15
Zeliedog Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 33	Munter78 wrote: Defilers Soul Ward is actually raid wide. Which I feel is unfair due to Oberon line being group only Not to mention their limited pet (spiritual circle) is like 10000x better then our attendant. Actually it has been commented to me that Soul Ward was made raid-wide so that Mystics would still be viable in MT groups...dunno.

03-25-2007, 04:35 PM	#16
olo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 33	The main reason that our guild has a defiler in the MT group instead of a Mystic is for more HPs. My STA can't really comepete with a Defilers raw health. However, they are missing out on oberron, which i think is a shame.

03-28-2007, 08:16 PM	#17
Boli32 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,425	We choose our Guild MT shammy on pure skill alone, defiler speced for debuffing takes his spot in the MA group and our exceptional Mystic in the MT group working his little dwarven [Removed for Content] off. Why have stats when you cna have skill

04-04-2007, 07:25 PM	#18
Rayche Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Mayhem Rank: Alts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 519	On our raids I'm MT Shammy 90% of the time (Except when I raid with a force that doesn't know me.) It's true about skill. (Or at least about paying attention and doing your job) I'm loving my Mystic even more than ever now that I'm spending most of my time raiding. We really make a difference. __________________ Rhandy Rhoades ~ 90 Troubador Kasey ~ 90 Bruiser Cometus ~ 82 Conjuror / 90 Master Sage Rayche ~ 81 Mystic / 90 Master Alchemist / 450 Adorning Tungar ~ 64 Necromancer / 80 Master Tailor Antonia Bayle Server

04-06-2007, 01:45 PM	#19
Judist Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 432	One of the Defiler buffs not mentioned is a tank-buff that proc's DPS/Haste debuffs on mobs that hit him. Proc amount can be upgraded in the Defiler AA line. It's main use is seen on multi-mob encounters which will cross debuff every mob hitting the MT. On single encounters it may not be noticed. Some top guilds out there swear by Mystics on high intensity encounters if they also have a dirge. Supposedly Mystics helping a Dirge proc stoneskin for the MT can make a big difference when tackling certain mobs. Works like a successful avoidance check by mitigating damage outright. Helpful if your MT is taking slow but very big hits. Not so helpful on fast/medium hitting mob or mobs with light adds where stoneskin can wasted mitigating small hits. Having a Defiler in the MT group is perfectionism. While the skills of the player matter most, fact is Defiler/Templar/Warden/Dirge/Coercer each have better buffs than their counterpart for the MT group. You can switch each class out and still be successful, but with all the "perfect group" preaching on the forums most MT's will choose these classes first. Only if the player fails horribly will they be replaced.

04-14-2007, 03:20 AM	#20
knightofround Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 289	Don't get me wrong, Mystics can be great Shamans. Yes, ancestry+dirge stoneskin+templar stoneskin can make a wicked combo. But the problem is opportunity cost. Ancestry and Bolster are useful in any type of group. However, the defiler reverse -haste -dps proc debuff is only effective in the main tank group In addition, the defiler's superior hp buffs and superior healing power are rather wasted in an off-tank group. Whereas a Mystic can contribute so much more in the form of ancestry, bolster, and CAs. In addition, the Mystic stat buffs will probably be more useful in off tank groups instead of the MT group, which should be throughly geared. So when I'm in the MT group, I'm glad I'm a defiler. But when I'm in an OT group, I wish I was a Mystic.