Aint Broke, dont fix it? GARBAGE

DarkLegacy2005 · 08-03-2005, 11:02 AM

Ya, if we followed the 'Aint broke dont fix it' mentality throughout history we would still be sitting in our caves amused by fire. Thats a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] philosophy. There are a multitude of inventions made through out our history which added to and encouraged something greater then themselves... and they fixed something that wasnt 'broken'. Examples?

How about the cotton gin?

Or the rifle? Lot better then bow and arrow, but you know that worked just fine...

How about dynamite? Ya, we could always move tons of dirt through shovels I guess.

Maybe the train? No, you're right, traveling by horse and buggy wasnt broken then... why did they need a train?

My point is, do not attack the things SOE patches with the mentality of 'If it aint broke, dont fix it' because no business which got anywhere followed that mentality, and if you find one that has, show me and I will prove to you where it didnt follow that method. Embrace change and enjoy the challenge. Refuse to remain in your pool of comfort and never see the ocean of beauty. You may say change is bad, but every dark has a light. Dynamite for example made headway on lessening the work of many throughout the world, but it also heralded a new way of warfare... both good and bad.

I would rather SOE changed something about this game everyday then sit back and let it rot. The day they announce no new changes or patches, I know this game has died.

Moontayle · 08-03-2005, 11:25 AM

Good message, bad examples. Very bad examples. 'Cept the train one.

DarkLegacy2005 · 08-03-2005, 11:39 AM

Its 2 in the morning here... cut me some slack, lol.

Gardvo · 08-03-2005, 04:42 PM

I've played too many dying MMORPG's. It's the same as always, devs keep "fixing" their game until it's not remotely similar to the same product anyone paid for. Bad developers always ignore the problems the community wants fixed and "fix" things nobody wanted changed.What is really going on is that the developers play their own game and when they find something they don't like they change it according to how they like it based on their perspective. A perspective not based on how hundreds of thousands of paying customers want to use their purchased product, but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game.If they had fully published their planned changes, let the community test them for a long period of time to gather feedback and make alterations, this wouldn't be the case.(ARE WE LEARNING YET?)SoE Corporate should consider firing anyone who would make such a brash marketing decision. Unfortunately the suits don't seem to know how things like this all add up and destroy MMO's. They really need to take a more active role in how their products are maintained. This could be the beginning of the end for EQ2.Heed my words. You can't revive a dying game, but you can easily break a thriving one.

Message Edited by Gardvord on 08-03-2005 07:04 AM

Gardvo · 08-12-2005, 01:17 AM

told ya so.

slx · 08-12-2005, 02:57 AM

This is an interesting analogy. However, there are a few details that make all the difference. Human psychology is very important when it comes to changes.

For example, lets use the automobile.

When Ford released the first automobile, there was not a mandate that everyone would have to replace their horse drawn carriage. In fact, for quite a while the two technologies coexisted while people had a chance to get used to it. In the end it was the people who accepted the technology. The distinction here is that most successful and lasting changes are those that are accepted not forced.

From what I have been reading, and my personal impression of the community, it seems that the community does not feel that they actually have a say in the matter and the SoE will do what ever it wants. The community sees the changes forced upon them, not as an automobile, but a carriage with square wheels.

Message Edited by slxty on 08-11-2005 03:59 PM

DarkFire9020 · 08-12-2005, 10:01 PM

Reading posts of if it's not broke don't fix it always confuses me from UO, SWG, FFXI, WoW, etc... if they don't try and make the game more stable and somewhat balanced we would have nothing to play but lagfest and uber mages. Over the years I have became friends with various developers of different games. The EQ2 Devs have to do what SOE tells them to do wether they may like it or not, no matter how the community feels about it. I learned the hard way with SWG being a bounty hunter at the time and being nerfed to heck and back. I cussed, complained, called Devs ignorant, and said the same thing if it is not broke don't fix it well that all falls on deaf ears. Over time I learned that yeah the Devs don't like the changes anymore than the playebase does but SOE or what ever game says change it. MMO's in general can not grow with out change, if there is no change then they can never learn from there mistakes or make things better. The don't fix it if it's not broke terminology should be thrown out the door and constructive posts about how to make the game better would be listened to.

Launceal · 08-12-2005, 10:05 PM

Gardvord wrote:
but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game.

The only pompous, selfish vibe I get from people regarding these changes is from know-it-all posters like you. I haven't seen a single post from a dev that wasn't a sincere attempt to get honest feedback and discussion about really improving the game. The problem is everyone has a different idea of how to improve it, and they aren't all compatible. Its a tough problem they are trying to solve.

borg0 · 08-13-2005, 04:40 AM

Gardvord wrote:

I've played too many dying MMORPG's.

Please list these MMORPG's that you've played, which no longer have paying customers, i'm quite curious.

It's the same as always, devs keep "fixing" their game until it's not remotely similar to the same product anyone paid for. Bad developers always ignore the problems the community wants fixed and "fix" things nobody wanted changed.

We, as players, do not know precisely how the game works. All we can do, is share our experiences amongst ourselves, perhaps parse some of the data the game gives back to us during play, and work out answers for ourselves through a lot of experimentation and trial-and-error techniques.

Also keep in mind that the community-at-large will rarely want something changed if that something makes the game easier, even if they know it really shouldn't be so easy.

Also keep in mind that the community-at-large will continually be spewing a litany of things they want changed, even though they have no idea how the change they want will affect the overall game.

What is really going on is that the developers play their own game and when they find something they don't like they change it according to how they like it based on their perspective. A perspective not based on how hundreds of thousands of paying customers want to use their purchased product, but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game.

OMG!!! QUICK!!! SOMEONE GET ME MY A.F.D.B. BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!! OMG!!!

Are you being serious here? Do you seriously think a company like Sony is going to pay a bunch of geeks to sit around, design, develop, and administer a game that should only be entertaining and satisfying to themselves? i mean, really now, that's like saying Kroger only stocks their shelves with the groceries that their employees want to buy. Do you really think the people running Sony are THAT stupid? That they'd just shovel out tons of money so a bunch of geeks can get their jollies by tormenting their paying customers? If you're so convinced that this is Sony's goal, and if Sony is in business to profit, then i'm sure you're completely prepared to explain how this sort of behavior would profit Sony, right? You can explain how tormenting their customers is going to boost their profit margin, can't you?

If they had fully published their planned changes, let the community test them for a long period of time to gather feedback and make alterations, this wouldn't be the case.
(ARE WE LEARNING YET?)

The only thing i'm learning is that a vast majority of people who play this game need to read a story entitled: Chicken Little. Be brave, wait for the change, and revel in the adventure of learning something new, rather than being a Chicken Little. If it changes to something you don't like, and remains that way, then speak the language of capitalism -- walk away, and take your wallet with you. It's really quite simple.

SoE Corporate should consider firing anyone who would make such a brash marketing decision.

How has their marketing changed? Sony's marketing is still using all the same tried and true marketing techniques that everyone else in this market uses.

... oh wait, i forgot you don't know anything about business ... did you maybe mean to say "anyone who would make such a brash design and development decision?"

Unfortunately the suits don't seem to know how things like this all add up and destroy MMO's. They really need to take a more active role in how their products are maintained.

And i suppose these "suits," as you call them, became the "suits" that they are by letting their company's products be destroyed by their own employees, and by ignoring what their employees are doing to the company's product?

This could be the beginning of the end for EQ2.

Oh yes, Sony wants EQ2 to die a quick death after only being live for barely a year. SURELY this was their plan all along. How could Sony have possibly wanted it any other way? The mind boggles...

Heed my words. You can't revive a dying game, but you can easily break a thriving one.

Cheap platitudes... great. You sure did sum it all up in one sentence or less. /pats Gardvord on the back for a job well done

Message Edited by Gardvord on 08-03-2005 07:04 AM

Mirac · 08-15-2005, 03:54 AM

-nm-

Message Edited by Mirac82 on 08-15-2005 02:15 AM

Beghard · 08-15-2005, 05:20 AM

"I've played too many dying MMORPG's. It's the same as always, devs keep "fixing" their game until it's not remotely similar to the same product anyone paid for. Bad developers always ignore the problems the community wants fixed and "fix" things nobody wanted changed.What is really going on is that the developers play their own game and when they find something they don't like they change it according to how they like it based on their perspective. A perspective not based on how hundreds of thousands of paying customers want to use their purchased product, but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game.If they had fully published their planned changes, let the community test them for a long period of time to gather feedback and make alterations, this wouldn't be the case.(ARE WE LEARNING YET?)SoE Corporate should consider firing anyone who would make such a brash marketing decision. Unfortunately the suits don't seem to know how things like this all add up and destroy MMO's. They really need to take a more active role in how their products are maintained. This could be the beginning of the end for EQ2.Heed my words. You can't revive a dying game, but you can easily break a thriving one."

I tend to think that if money is what it comes down to, SoE has the bigger stock in this seeing as how they have spen tens of millions more dalors and man hours on this game than you have. And it is their game, just so you know. An MMO such as this isnt as much of a product you own as it is a servis you recive, much like your cable telivision or gas.On top of all that, you dont even know what you want so who are you to talk. None of us know just exactly what it guna be like in the end or if we will like. Although your free to mAke an ill informed decision now and leave, bye.

Sokolov · 08-15-2005, 06:34 PM

Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT. In other words, the vocal on these boards are not necessarily correct and do not necessarily represent the majority opinion.

slx · 08-15-2005, 06:45 PM

Sokolov wrote:
Let's get one thing straight...

YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.

In other words, the vocal on these boards are not necessarily correct and do not necessarily represent the majority opinion.

The opinions expressed are, absolutely, a mirror of the majority opinion, a funhouse mirror, but a mirror none the less. The trick is to figure out what’s distorted and what isn’t. The job of the CM's is to figure out how to adjust the image to see the actual reality of the situation. To say that the boards should be ignored because they do not provide a pristine image of what the community wants is ignorant, self-serving and arrogant.

Message Edited by slxty on 08-15-2005 07:55 AM

EvilIguana9 · 08-15-2005, 08:29 PM

Sokolov wrote:Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.

What about posting in large letters and making copious use of obxoniously loud text colors?

Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on 08-15-2005 12:51 PM

Sokolov · 08-15-2005, 09:36 PM

EvilIguana966 wrote:
Sokolov wrote:Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.
What about posting in large letters and making copious use of obxoniously loud text colors?
Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on 08-15-2005 12:51 PM

*laughs and holds his hands up* okay okay you win SMILEY

Enlighten · 08-15-2005, 10:33 PM

Actually none of those are examples of not broken but fixed. Those were revolutions in their own field. An example with the rifle would be they made machine guns, semi auto matics. A canoe to a wooden ship into battle cruisers and submarines. A propeller plane to jets. You can even argue a modem to DSL/cable, but for us online all the time that would be a hard one to pull off lol. None of those things were broken but they fixed/improved them.

08-03-2005, 11:02 AM	#1
DarkLegacy2005 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 152	Ya, if we followed the 'Aint broke dont fix it' mentality throughout history we would still be sitting in our caves amused by fire. Thats a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] philosophy. There are a multitude of inventions made through out our history which added to and encouraged something greater then themselves... and they fixed something that wasnt 'broken'. Examples? How about the cotton gin? Or the rifle? Lot better then bow and arrow, but you know that worked just fine... How about dynamite? Ya, we could always move tons of dirt through shovels I guess. Maybe the train? No, you're right, traveling by horse and buggy wasnt broken then... why did they need a train? My point is, do not attack the things SOE patches with the mentality of 'If it aint broke, dont fix it' because no business which got anywhere followed that mentality, and if you find one that has, show me and I will prove to you where it didnt follow that method. Embrace change and enjoy the challenge. Refuse to remain in your pool of comfort and never see the ocean of beauty. You may say change is bad, but every dark has a light. Dynamite for example made headway on lessening the work of many throughout the world, but it also heralded a new way of warfare... both good and bad. I would rather SOE changed something about this game everyday then sit back and let it rot. The day they announce no new changes or patches, I know this game has died. __________________

08-03-2005, 11:25 AM	#2
Moontayle Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 167	Good message, bad examples. Very bad examples. 'Cept the train one. __________________ Regards, Trayson, Guardian of Gnomish Marine Corps Writer in Progress Current Project: Daryn. 21k written out of 100k planned.

08-03-2005, 11:39 AM	#3
DarkLegacy2005 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 152	Its 2 in the morning here... cut me some slack, lol. __________________

08-03-2005, 04:42 PM	#4
Gardvo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	I've played too many dying MMORPG's. It's the same as always, devs keep "fixing" their game until it's not remotely similar to the same product anyone paid for. Bad developers always ignore the problems the community wants fixed and "fix" things nobody wanted changed.What is really going on is that the developers play their own game and when they find something they don't like they change it according to how they like it based on their perspective. A perspective not based on how hundreds of thousands of paying customers want to use their purchased product, but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game.If they had fully published their planned changes, let the community test them for a long period of time to gather feedback and make alterations, this wouldn't be the case.(ARE WE LEARNING YET?)SoE Corporate should consider firing anyone who would make such a brash marketing decision. Unfortunately the suits don't seem to know how things like this all add up and destroy MMO's. They really need to take a more active role in how their products are maintained. This could be the beginning of the end for EQ2.Heed my words. You can't revive a dying game, but you can easily break a thriving one. Message Edited by Gardvord on 08-03-2005 07:04 AM __________________ EQ is like your first kiss. You'll never get that feeling back again But with Vanguard, we're not stopping at first base. Here's to hoping we all score. -Brad McQuaid, CEO Sigil Games Online

08-12-2005, 01:17 AM	#5
Gardvo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	told ya so. __________________ EQ is like your first kiss. You'll never get that feeling back again But with Vanguard, we're not stopping at first base. Here's to hoping we all score. -Brad McQuaid, CEO Sigil Games Online

08-12-2005, 02:57 AM	#6
slx General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 35	This is an interesting analogy. However, there are a few details that make all the difference. Human psychology is very important when it comes to changes. For example, lets use the automobile. When Ford released the first automobile, there was not a mandate that everyone would have to replace their horse drawn carriage. In fact, for quite a while the two technologies coexisted while people had a chance to get used to it. In the end it was the people who accepted the technology. The distinction here is that most successful and lasting changes are those that are accepted not forced. From what I have been reading, and my personal impression of the community, it seems that the community does not feel that they actually have a say in the matter and the SoE will do what ever it wants. The community sees the changes forced upon them, not as an automobile, but a carriage with square wheels. Message Edited by slxty on 08-11-2005 03:59 PM

08-12-2005, 10:01 PM	#7
DarkFire9020 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	Reading posts of if it's not broke don't fix it always confuses me from UO, SWG, FFXI, WoW, etc... if they don't try and make the game more stable and somewhat balanced we would have nothing to play but lagfest and uber mages. Over the years I have became friends with various developers of different games. The EQ2 Devs have to do what SOE tells them to do wether they may like it or not, no matter how the community feels about it. I learned the hard way with SWG being a bounty hunter at the time and being nerfed to heck and back. I cussed, complained, called Devs ignorant, and said the same thing if it is not broke don't fix it well that all falls on deaf ears. Over time I learned that yeah the Devs don't like the changes anymore than the playebase does but SOE or what ever game says change it. MMO's in general can not grow with out change, if there is no change then they can never learn from there mistakes or make things better. The don't fix it if it's not broke terminology should be thrown out the door and constructive posts about how to make the game better would be listened to.

08-12-2005, 10:05 PM	#8
Launceal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 43	Gardvord wrote: but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game. The only pompous, selfish vibe I get from people regarding these changes is from know-it-all posters like you. I haven't seen a single post from a dev that wasn't a sincere attempt to get honest feedback and discussion about really improving the game. The problem is everyone has a different idea of how to improve it, and they aren't all compatible. Its a tough problem they are trying to solve.

08-13-2005, 04:40 AM	#9
borg0 Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 46	Gardvord wrote: I've played too many dying MMORPG's. Please list these MMORPG's that you've played, which no longer have paying customers, i'm quite curious. It's the same as always, devs keep "fixing" their game until it's not remotely similar to the same product anyone paid for. Bad developers always ignore the problems the community wants fixed and "fix" things nobody wanted changed. We, as players, do not know precisely how the game works. All we can do, is share our experiences amongst ourselves, perhaps parse some of the data the game gives back to us during play, and work out answers for ourselves through a lot of experimentation and trial-and-error techniques. Also keep in mind that the community-at-large will rarely want something changed if that something makes the game easier, even if they know it really shouldn't be so easy. Also keep in mind that the community-at-large will continually be spewing a litany of things they want changed, even though they have no idea how the change they want will affect the overall game. What is really going on is that the developers play their own game and when they find something they don't like they change it according to how they like it based on their perspective. A perspective not based on how hundreds of thousands of paying customers want to use their purchased product, but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game. OMG!!! QUICK!!! SOMEONE GET ME MY A.F.D.B. BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!! OMG!!! Are you being serious here? Do you seriously think a company like Sony is going to pay a bunch of geeks to sit around, design, develop, and administer a game that should only be entertaining and satisfying to themselves? i mean, really now, that's like saying Kroger only stocks their shelves with the groceries that their employees want to buy. Do you really think the people running Sony are THAT stupid? That they'd just shovel out tons of money so a bunch of geeks can get their jollies by tormenting their paying customers? If you're so convinced that this is Sony's goal, and if Sony is in business to profit, then i'm sure you're completely prepared to explain how this sort of behavior would profit Sony, right? You can explain how tormenting their customers is going to boost their profit margin, can't you? If they had fully published their planned changes, let the community test them for a long period of time to gather feedback and make alterations, this wouldn't be the case. (ARE WE LEARNING YET?) The only thing i'm learning is that a vast majority of people who play this game need to read a story entitled: Chicken Little. Be brave, wait for the change, and revel in the adventure of learning something new, rather than being a Chicken Little. If it changes to something you don't like, and remains that way, then speak the language of capitalism -- walk away, and take your wallet with you. It's really quite simple. SoE Corporate should consider firing anyone who would make such a brash marketing decision. How has their marketing changed? Sony's marketing is still using all the same tried and true marketing techniques that everyone else in this market uses. ... oh wait, i forgot you don't know anything about business ... did you maybe mean to say "anyone who would make such a brash design and development decision?" Unfortunately the suits don't seem to know how things like this all add up and destroy MMO's. They really need to take a more active role in how their products are maintained. And i suppose these "suits," as you call them, became the "suits" that they are by letting their company's products be destroyed by their own employees, and by ignoring what their employees are doing to the company's product? This could be the beginning of the end for EQ2. Oh yes, Sony wants EQ2 to die a quick death after only being live for barely a year. SURELY this was their plan all along. How could Sony have possibly wanted it any other way? The mind boggles... Heed my words. You can't revive a dying game, but you can easily break a thriving one. Cheap platitudes... great. You sure did sum it all up in one sentence or less. /pats Gardvord on the back for a job well done Message Edited by Gardvord on 08-03-2005 07:04 AM

08-15-2005, 03:54 AM	#10
Mirac General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2	-nm- Message Edited by Mirac82 on 08-15-2005 02:15 AM

08-15-2005, 05:20 AM	#11
Beghard Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 363	"I've played too many dying MMORPG's. It's the same as always, devs keep "fixing" their game until it's not remotely similar to the same product anyone paid for. Bad developers always ignore the problems the community wants fixed and "fix" things nobody wanted changed.What is really going on is that the developers play their own game and when they find something they don't like they change it according to how they like it based on their perspective. A perspective not based on how hundreds of thousands of paying customers want to use their purchased product, but how some pompous, dozen of selfish designers want to play their own game.If they had fully published their planned changes, let the community test them for a long period of time to gather feedback and make alterations, this wouldn't be the case.(ARE WE LEARNING YET?)SoE Corporate should consider firing anyone who would make such a brash marketing decision. Unfortunately the suits don't seem to know how things like this all add up and destroy MMO's. They really need to take a more active role in how their products are maintained. This could be the beginning of the end for EQ2.Heed my words. You can't revive a dying game, but you can easily break a thriving one." I tend to think that if money is what it comes down to, SoE has the bigger stock in this seeing as how they have spen tens of millions more dalors and man hours on this game than you have. And it is their game, just so you know. An MMO such as this isnt as much of a product you own as it is a servis you recive, much like your cable telivision or gas.On top of all that, you dont even know what you want so who are you to talk. None of us know just exactly what it guna be like in the end or if we will like. Although your free to mAke an ill informed decision now and leave, bye. __________________

08-15-2005, 06:34 PM	#12
Sokolov Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,357	Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT. In other words, the vocal on these boards are not necessarily correct and do not necessarily represent the majority opinion. __________________ [] Sokolov - New Outriders [] [] Maridith(70 Defiler) Sokolov (70 Jeweler) Loklan(57 Zerker) Rebekah(47 Ranger) [] Healing Guide - Version 0.5 Fate has perfect wings

08-15-2005, 06:45 PM	#13
slx General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 35	Sokolov wrote: Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT. In other words, the vocal on these boards are not necessarily correct and do not necessarily represent the majority opinion. The opinions expressed are, absolutely, a mirror of the majority opinion, a funhouse mirror, but a mirror none the less. The trick is to figure out what’s distorted and what isn’t. The job of the CM's is to figure out how to adjust the image to see the actual reality of the situation. To say that the boards should be ignored because they do not provide a pristine image of what the community wants is ignorant, self-serving and arrogant. Message Edited by slxty on 08-15-2005 07:55 AM

08-15-2005, 08:29 PM	#14
EvilIguana9 General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 477	Sokolov wrote:Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT. What about posting in large letters and making copious use of obxoniously loud text colors? Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on 08-15-2005 12:51 PM

08-15-2005, 09:36 PM	#15
Sokolov Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,357	EvilIguana966 wrote: Sokolov wrote:Let's get one thing straight... YELLING LOUDER DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT. What about posting in large letters and making copious use of obxoniously loud text colors? Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on 08-15-2005 12:51 PM laughs and holds his hands up okay okay you win __________________ [] Sokolov - New Outriders [] [] Maridith(70 Defiler) Sokolov (70 Jeweler) Loklan(57 Zerker) Rebekah(47 Ranger) [] Healing Guide - Version 0.5 Fate has perfect wings

08-15-2005, 10:33 PM	#16
Enlighten Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A house? Posts: 5	Actually none of those are examples of not broken but fixed. Those were revolutions in their own field. An example with the rifle would be they made machine guns, semi auto matics. A canoe to a wooden ship into battle cruisers and submarines. A propeller plane to jets. You can even argue a modem to DSL/cable, but for us online all the time that would be a hard one to pull off lol. None of those things were broken but they fixed/improved them.