What to make from Ebon Cluster?

sysop · 05-06-2005, 09:12 PM

Hi everyone,

If i have an Ebon Cluster what should i make from it as first choice? Weapon or Armor?

Is this Pristine Imbued Ebon Sai any good? Or should i pick any other better or skip this weapon and go for Ebon armor?
Is these dropped/quest weapons you can get better then this Ebon Sai?

Thx all who answer!

Kizee · 05-06-2005, 10:27 PM

Sai is a nice weapon.

I weild 2 of them and I love it. SMILEY

It is up to you on the armor or weapon choice tho. I decided not to get ebon armor for my assassin and instead had a rare t5 leather set made up for fraction of the cost. (Looks 1000x better than the chain armor too)

scivias · 05-06-2005, 10:54 PM

afaic an ebon leafblade is the best thing since slicing throat

Putka · 05-06-2005, 11:07 PM

yeah Sai and augmented leather are great SMILEY (the tunic gives +12 str compared to +8 str from ebon chain, which is another reason to get it SMILEY )

leafblade? heh.. well, to me wielding a spear just looks dumb SMILEY

Kizee · 05-06-2005, 11:50 PM

Putka wrote:

yeah Sai and augmented leather are great (the tunic gives +12 str compared to +8 str from ebon chain, which is another reason to get it )

leafblade? heh.. well, to me wielding a spear just looks dumb

Aye, I hate the way the spears look to hence why I got the Sai's... plus I am a str nut too and the sai had the most str on it.

Off topic... I had 369 str last night in my exp group with a troub and mystic. I was shocked since I am a weak little woodelf. SMILEY

Vladdax · 05-06-2005, 11:50 PM

I'd have to say weapons first, they'd make more difference in day to day fighting than armour. Personally i've got a imbued ebon leafblade and cresent axe, both are great imho SMILEY

sysop · 05-07-2005, 07:23 AM

Thx alot for the input!

Ok weapon sounds the first thing to aim for then SMILEY

The prismatic weapon you can get is it any good or is these Ebon weapons better? Or should i aim for Example: 1 Ebon Sai and then prismatic, is that the best setup?

Che · 05-07-2005, 08:22 PM

I would say sai's are good, but at higher levels, when you have 5-6 types of haste (self buff, fbss, slayer ring, dmorte spell, group buffs, etc.) the slower the weapon the better. When you have two sais that are what, 1.7 spd, compared to two leafblades that are 2.1... with so much haste, both will be hitting at the same speed but the leafblades will do far more damage. It's just my opinion, but I always look to get the slowest DW weapons possible, I'm currently using a ebon leafblade with polished granite axe for long fights when I need power, and another leafblade when I don't.

Also, I've heard a lot of assassins say that weapons don't matter much for dps in the long run, that our CA are what give us the high DPS, however, after a few nights of parcing, I've noticed that my basic, auto-attack damage really builds up over time, my point is just that weapons are important, and don't let anyone give you the idea they aren't.

Kizee · 05-07-2005, 10:38 PM

Cheno wrote:

I would say sai's are good, but at higher levels, when you have 5-6 types of haste (self buff, fbss, slayer ring, dmorte spell, group buffs, etc.) the slower the weapon the better. When you have two sais that are what, 1.7 spd, compared to two leafblades that are 2.1... with so much haste, both will be hitting at the same speed but the leafblades will do far more damage. It's just my opinion, but I always look to get the slowest DW weapons possible, I'm currently using a ebon leafblade with polished granite axe for long fights when I need power, and another leafblade when I don't.

Also, I've heard a lot of assassins say that weapons don't matter much for dps in the long run, that our CA are what give us the high DPS, however, after a few nights of parcing, I've noticed that my basic, auto-attack damage really builds up over time, my point is just that weapons are important, and don't let anyone give you the idea they aren't.

You would be suprised how many traditional rogues are out there that think that weilding a spear is not very rougish. :p

I went with sai's because I hated the way the spear looked and I went with leather armor because I hated the way the chain looked. After all.... looking good is everything. SMILEY

ag · 05-09-2005, 08:39 PM

Cheno wrote:
... When you have two sais that are what, 1.7 spd, compared to two leafblades that are 2.1... with so much haste, both will be hitting at the same speed but the leafblades will do far more damage. ...

Can you back this up with hard numbers? Or a dev post? Everything I've read to date has NOT indicated a minimum attack speed rate. As far as I know, haste scales linearly for all weapons, and there is no minimum attack rate cap, as it were.I'm not trying to be confrontational by asking this, but if there's new info out there that I missed, I'd like to see it.A 2.4 weapon should haste down to 1.2A 1.6 weapon should haste down to 0.8etc.

Putka · 05-09-2005, 09:04 PM

/em eyes pop out

It's a brigand!! Get her!

:smileyvery-happy:

Ok, your theory sounds simple enough SMILEY with a 50% haste you would hit at 1.0 with a 2.0 weapon. But seriously that's just pretty hard to beleive due to a number of reasons. It's very easy to get over 100% haste at tier5, does this mean we hit infinitely fast?

Take for example good ole Gleaming Strike with its misleading description of "5% on every hit". Turned out it was 5% every 3 seconds.. ugh. The truth is we have no clue about haste mechanics (well, at least I don't since I've never seen an official post about it). But I imagine there's probably a soft cap with deminishing returns in place somewhere. Maybe in the vicinity of 0.5 delay? Because any lower than that would exponentially increase your attack rate.

In any case I'm almost certain that slower weapons will always have an advantage over fast ones when you're highly hasted. But I still wouldn't trade my looks for it, a spear is ugly, period.

You like to parse a lot Agra, why don't you make some tests for us SMILEY Say.. 5 minutes of meleeing with 0 haste, then repeat with 50% haste and finally, get some utility to help you get to 150% and do it again. Maybe throw in a variety of weapons SMILEY short sword Vs. leafblade.. thanks SMILEY

Putka · 05-09-2005, 09:16 PM

Hm.. actually, maybe there isn't a cap after all. We shouldn't look at our attack speed in terms of "delay".

Let's suppose the "default" attack speed of your character is 2 hits every 1 second. Using a dagger with 1.0 delay would make you hit 1 time every 1 second. Now, adding to that a 150% increase in attack speed would make you hit 2.5 times every 1 second. Yes! I've got it! SMILEY God, I can't beleive all the misconceptions I've had concerning attack speed :smileyindifferent: What a revelation! <.< Yay no deminishing returns! Yay no leafblade advantage other than proc rate on CAs! No need to be ugly to be effective! Gogo ebon shortsword next! SMILEY

rofl.. ok, now parse please SMILEY

Message Edited by Putka on 05-09-2005 10:31 AM

ag · 05-09-2005, 09:49 PM

I swear, the next name I make is going to end in a consonant..In any case, all the parsing to date shows no difference in imbued/intrinsic proc rate, auto attack damage, HO speed, pioson proc rate, or anything else relevant from weapon to weapon.. exceeeept...The only difference the weapon makes is with respect to your to-hit chance, given it's tier.Of course, the above is only true if you're comparing apples to apples (all fulginate crafted, for example, or all dropped normal steel)As well, the ebon weapons are all basically identical with respect to delay and damage, if you actually divide it out for average. This is not co-incidental.

pristine forged ebon spatha - agi 10, str 10, health 35, power 33, dmg 22-66, dly 1.2, min/dly 18.3, max/dly 55, avg/dly 36.7pristine forged ebon falchion - agi 10, str 10, health 37, power 31, dmg 22-66, dly 1.2, min/dly 18.3, max/dly 55, avg/dly 36.7pristine forged ebon short sword - agi 9, str 11, health 34, power 33, dmg 22-66, dly 1.2, min/dly 18.3, max/dly 55, avg/dly 36.7pristine forged ebon dagger - agi 11, str 9, health 35, power 33, dmg 23-69, dly 1.3, min/dly 17.7, max/dly 53.1, avg/dly 35.4pristine forged ebon rapier - agi 7, str 13, health 37, power 31, dmg 23-69, dly 1.3, min/dly 17.7, max/dly 53.1, avg/dly 35.4pristine forged ebon kris - agi 13, str 7, health 29, power 39, dmg 26-77, dly 1.4, min/dly 18.6, max/dly 55, avg/dly 36.8pristine forged ebon hand axe - agi 10, str 10, health 34, power 34, dmg 26-77, dly 1.4, min/dly 18.6, max/dly 55, avg/dly 36.8pristine forged ebon stiletto - agi 13, str 7, health 33, power 35, dmg 27-80, dly 1.5, min/dly 18, max/dly 53.3, avg/dly 35.7pristine forged ebon crescent axe - agi 10, str 10, health 33, power 35, dmg 28-83, dly 1.5, min/dly 18.7, max/dly 55.3, avg/dly 37pristine forged ebon sabre - agi 10, str 10, health 38, power 30, dmg 30-91, dly 1.6, min/dly 18.8, max/dly 56.9, avg/dly 37.81pristine forged ebon short spear - agi 12, str 8, health 37, power 31, dmg 31-94, dly 1.7, min/dly 18.2, max/dly 55.3, avg/dly 36.8pristine forged ebon sai - agi 7, str 13, health 25, power 44, dmg 31-94, dly 1.7, min/dly 18.2, max/dly 55.3, avg/dly 36.8pristine forged ebon leafblade - agi 8, str 12, health 31, power 38, dmg 39-116, dly 2.1, min/dly 18.6, max/dly 55.2, avg/dly 36.9

I'd be more than happy to parse if I think it would reveal anything, or if I percieved a disparity. But I will stand by my statement that haste continues linearly down to ooh, probably something like 0.1 (not 1.0) delay, until corrected by a developer.The above presume haste works thusly:2.4 delay is 1.2 at 100%, and 0.6 at 200%, and 0.3 at 300%So i'd say the ebon leafblade is superioer at 400-500% haste. When you can sustain that haste >50% of your fighting time, I will admit defeat. Until then, long live the kris/hand-axe combo! SMILEY

Putka · 05-09-2005, 11:31 PM

agra wrote:
I swear, the next name I make is going to end in a consonant..

Are you trying to say you're not female then? Eew :smileyvery-happy:

In any case, all the parsing to date shows no difference in imbued/intrinsic proc rate

I said it only makes a difference in proc rate on combat arts. And you can't possibly deny the truth of that, since it's quite obvious even without any sort of parsing- 7.0 delay bows proc almost every time (wether it's poison, gleaming strike, swipe.. something is almost sure to go off on every CA, regardless how fast you chain them It's a stupid mechanic though, I would've done it differently).

The only difference the weapon makes is with respect to your to-hit chance, given it's tier.

What? First time I heard that.. I suppose this will be one of the things I will parse tonight.

As well, the ebon weapons are all basically identical with respect to delay and damage, if you actually divide it out for average. This is not co-incidental.

I think there are more things to consider here than just damage/delay, namely your base attack speed without weapons, and at which point the haste bonus is actually applied (before or after weapon delay? maybe it even affects only the delay itself?)

I'd be more than happy to parse if I think it would reveal anything, or if I percieved a disparity. But I will stand by my statement that haste continues linearly down to ooh, probably something like 0.1 (not 1.0) delay, until corrected by a developer.

Ok I'll do it tonight, since it's bugging me to no end now

The above presume haste works thusly:

2.4 delay is 1.2 at 100%, and 0.6 at 200%, and 0.3 at 300%

So i'd say the ebon leafblade is superioer at 400-500% haste. When you can sustain that haste >50% of your fighting time, I will admit defeat. Until then, long live the kris/hand-axe combo!

I still think you're perceiving weapon delay in the wrong way.. I assume this delay simply presents a speed penalty to your base attack speed without an equipped weapon. And if that's true, then faster weapons actually have an increasing advantage over slower ones, the higher your haste %. I promise to test all of this . Oh.. and it's sai/short-sword

Message Edited by Putka on 05-09-2005 12:33 PM

Putka · 05-10-2005, 01:40 AM

Ok here we go, didn't have much time but this is what I parsed..

1) No weapons, no haste

100 attacks in 100 seconds. This is what I'll call base attack speed.

Now, as I assumed, the displayed delay on each weapon means the ratio between base attack speed and weapon speed.

2) Sai (1.7), no haste

62 attacks in 100 seconds. As you can see my attack speed was now- base/1.7

3) PGT (1.2), no haste

85 attacks in 100 seconds. (base/1.2)

4) PGT (1.2), 63% haste

138 attacks in 100 seconds.

The ratio between PGT (63%) and PGT (0%) is 1.6235.

So, clearly the haste buff is applied after base/delay, which pretty much means you'll be getting the same damage with a short sword (1.2) and leafblade (2.1), regardless if your haste is 50% or 200%.

Yeah.. it's pretty linear and boring SMILEY

I was hoping a fast weapon would be either more or less effective under certain conditions than a slow weapon. But still, who knows, maybe there is a cap at some point.. if you'll parse some extreme haste, let me know the results SMILEY

Brianf · 05-12-2005, 09:08 PM

I thought the same thing about whips....

For now it is PGT and Imbued Feysteel stilletto for me...

Vuron · 05-13-2005, 12:13 AM

I'm going to have to go against the grain and say "Armor".

If you're talking about ebon, then you are getting to the point where you will probably start raiding, or at least doing some of the bigger quests. There are plenty of heritage rewards, quest rewards, and fabled weapons that are much better than any imbued weapon you can get.

There seem to be very few fabled or rare medium armor pieces in the game that are better than imbued ebon.

Putka · 05-13-2005, 05:30 AM

There may be more fabled dw weapons than medium pieces, but you need a spare pierce and slash poker anyway SMILEY

Getting 4 fabled ones, 2 pierce, 2 slash isn't going to happen very soon SMILEY

Vuron · 05-13-2005, 07:01 PM

Yea, 4 fabled weapons may be a stretch. But you should still have SBD and SSOY to use if needed and would only need 1 slashing and 1 piercing after that. Getting the Heart of Fear weapon used to be preferred until it was nerfed, but it is still an OK weapon as a spare. I'd also be worried about the effects of the upcoming combat changes. It's in the test server patch notes that the quality of a weapon is going to start having an impact on combat, and player made weapons are pretty low on their list of quality.

The problem that I have with armor, is that there are only about 2 medium chest pieces worth having that are better than imbued ebon. I guess we could go to light or a robe for raids, but that doesn't really help during normal play.

Putka · 05-13-2005, 07:17 PM

The problem is though, I consider the weapons you mentioned a little below my standards :smileyvery-happy: I really wouldn't want to be seen with them equipped, lol SMILEY

Vuron · 05-13-2005, 09:49 PM

I agree, but I meant that they would be the backups that you would carry around in your inventory to switch out on piercing/slashing raid mobs. I think it would be a huge waste to get an ebon weapon made to carry around in your backpack as a spare. Considering that pure melee only accounts for about 30% of your damage, and even less on raid mobs, I still think you're better off with armor that you can benefit from 100% of the time.

I just think my main point is that once you start raiding, you will get weapons better than imbued ebon. There is a very good chance that you will not get a chest piece or legs better than imbued ebon (medium armor). Of course, if you've got Robe of the Invoker, you can disregard this argument unless you plan to solo.

And I don't want to steal this thread, but has anyone else noticed that poisons seem to be hitting more on epics? Did Drayek and Zalak the other night and my poison proc'd constantly.

ZaranilShadowfie · 05-14-2005, 01:34 AM

I'm going to have to agree with Putka in a very big way. Weapon quality already makes a difference right now. Imbued ebon weapons are legendary and they are much better than the things you have listed. If your getting into raiding then you need to have 2 slashers and 2 pierce. You don't NOT have them and then wait until you win them from a raid lol. And like Putka said, I wouldn't be caught dead using a herritage weapon or a bone razor. SMILEY

The fact is, ebon armor isn't even very good and it costs a lot of money. 4 ebon weapons are going to make a big difference in what you can do espically while raiding. 4 pieces of ebon armor is just going to make you look silly and rich. If you are taking hits, your doing something wrong, and if your taking hits ebon armor isn't going to save you. Rare leather has better stats than ebon does for a small reduction in ac and it is a fraction of the cost. Not to mention it looks a lot better. If your talking about ebons distributed through out a guild just getting into raiding, ebon given to scouts for armor is a total waste. And if it's just your ebon we are talking about, selling it for cash to buy masters is a much better idea. Bottom line: If you don't have 4 ebon weapons or better ( herirtage is not better ) you have no buisness buying ebon armor which isn't better than leather to begin with. Your weapons make a big difference in your dps despite what the above poster has stated. If you don't believe me try comparing yourself to a better equipped character on a raid parse.

Triccer · 05-15-2005, 06:43 PM

What's wrong with heritage weapons? Comparing them with the PIEStuff I fail to see the huge difference. Pristine Imbued Ebon Short Sword - Tier: Legendary Damage Rating:24.6 Stats:+11 Strength +9 Agility +35 Health +33 Power Proc: Gleaming Strike Short Sword of the Ykesha - Tier: Legendary Damage Rating:24.6 Stats:+5 Strength +5 Intelligence +10 Agility +35 Health +35 Power Proc: Ykesha's Wrath Serrated Bone Dirk - Tier: Legendary Damage Rating:25.0 Stats:+6 Strength +7 Stamina +9 Agility +40 Health +32 Power Proc: No Proc So taking a look the damage ratio on the weapons is the same, the stats are insignificantly better on the PIESS, especially taking into account being raidbuffed. The proc is better on the PIESS. Still a proc that has a 5% base chance to go off every 3 seconds can't make all the difference. Heritage isn't better but it isnt much worse (if noticeable at all) either. So where's the point in saying "I wouldn't be caught dead using a heritage weapon"? That statement sounds slightly wannabe hardcore to me, but that might be a mistake in perception on my part. If there's some hidden extra rule rendering heritage weapons useless in certain circumstances, feel free to enlighten me.

Putka · 05-15-2005, 08:47 PM

The problem with SBD is no proc. If you say that's insignificant.. you've got to be joking SMILEY . In any case, it's surely more significant than the boost between crafted ebon armor and whatever you were wearing before it.

The problem with SSOY is low STR and a rather weak proc.

Triccer wrote:
So where's the point in saying "I wouldn't be caught dead using a heritage weapon"? That statement sounds slightly wannabe hardcore to me, but that might be a mistake in perception on my part.

Nothing wrong with being ambitious and wanting only the best you can get. Thats what seperates the most successful guilds from the rest I suppose.

Triccer · 05-15-2005, 09:14 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong there, getting the best you can get is totally fine with me. SMILEY

I'd agree with getting Masters on my skills first though, and not get me a PFE just for the sake of having it and not being labeled a noob when wielding heritage weapons. As for the stats, there was a nice post on the same boards comparing them and with the diminishing returns you get, I dont think there's much of a difference if any at all between 300 and 305 strength. Let me take a look at the proc... I didn't do parses, but I think what developers said were that there's not a certain chance to proc per hit, but a chance to proc every 3 seconds of fighting. I'm not completely sure how CAs affect that procrate but taken the most basic assumption of having a 5% chance of a proc every 3 seconds you will get about 175 : 20 : 3 = 3 damage per second (175 average damage on the proc with zero mitigation, 5% chance ro proc, 3 seconds between chances)from the proc on an PIE. 3 damage per second isn't neglectable, but compared to the overall dps of an assassin (I'm not an assassin so Im just assuming you are hitting rather hard) it's not that huge. And I'm pretty sure you can upgrade your dps better by investing into a Master CA. Yeah, every bit helps and if I had the choice between a heritage and a PIE I wouldn't hesitate a milisecond, but I'd set my priorities differently. SMILEY

Edit: Oh and what sets the best guilds apart from the rest are great determination and insane amounts of playtime. At least that was what I observed in EQ1... SMILEY

Message Edited by Triccer on 05-15-2005 10:21 AM

ZaranilShadowfie · 05-17-2005, 06:25 PM

A swashie said I was "wannabe hardcore".... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] does that even mean?Stuff on ebon weapons by Ahlspiess

dparker7 · 05-17-2005, 11:18 PM

Ok, I try to find higher delay weapons not because of a haste floor/ceiling, but because of spamming CAs. If my 1.5 weapon and my 1.2 weapon are both hasted below 1second, when the autoattack goes off between my 2 CAs, I want the higher damage from the 1.5, because the lower delay is going to waste.

05-06-2005, 09:12 PM	#1
sysop Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	Hi everyone, If i have an Ebon Cluster what should i make from it as first choice? Weapon or Armor? Is this Pristine Imbued Ebon Sai any good? Or should i pick any other better or skip this weapon and go for Ebon armor? Is these dropped/quest weapons you can get better then this Ebon Sai? Thx all who answer! __________________

05-06-2005, 10:27 PM	#2
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Sai is a nice weapon. I weild 2 of them and I love it. It is up to you on the armor or weapon choice tho. I decided not to get ebon armor for my assassin and instead had a rare t5 leather set made up for fraction of the cost. (Looks 1000x better than the chain armor too)

05-06-2005, 10:54 PM	#3
scivias Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	afaic an ebon leafblade is the best thing since slicing throat __________________

05-06-2005, 11:07 PM	#4
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	yeah Sai and augmented leather are great (the tunic gives +12 str compared to +8 str from ebon chain, which is another reason to get it ) leafblade? heh.. well, to me wielding a spear just looks dumb

05-06-2005, 11:50 PM	#5
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Putka wrote: yeah Sai and augmented leather are great (the tunic gives +12 str compared to +8 str from ebon chain, which is another reason to get it ) leafblade? heh.. well, to me wielding a spear just looks dumb Aye, I hate the way the spears look to hence why I got the Sai's... plus I am a str nut too and the sai had the most str on it. Off topic... I had 369 str last night in my exp group with a troub and mystic. I was shocked since I am a weak little woodelf.

05-06-2005, 11:50 PM	#6
Vladdax Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 66	I'd have to say weapons first, they'd make more difference in day to day fighting than armour. Personally i've got a imbued ebon leafblade and cresent axe, both are great imho __________________ Vladdax - Evolution Guild 51 Rat Assassin - Splitpaw http://www.splitpaw.net

05-07-2005, 07:23 AM	#7
sysop Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	Thx alot for the input! Ok weapon sounds the first thing to aim for then The prismatic weapon you can get is it any good or is these Ebon weapons better? Or should i aim for Example: 1 Ebon Sai and then prismatic, is that the best setup? __________________

05-07-2005, 08:22 PM	#8
Che Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	I would say sai's are good, but at higher levels, when you have 5-6 types of haste (self buff, fbss, slayer ring, dmorte spell, group buffs, etc.) the slower the weapon the better. When you have two sais that are what, 1.7 spd, compared to two leafblades that are 2.1... with so much haste, both will be hitting at the same speed but the leafblades will do far more damage. It's just my opinion, but I always look to get the slowest DW weapons possible, I'm currently using a ebon leafblade with polished granite axe for long fights when I need power, and another leafblade when I don't. Also, I've heard a lot of assassins say that weapons don't matter much for dps in the long run, that our CA are what give us the high DPS, however, after a few nights of parcing, I've noticed that my basic, auto-attack damage really builds up over time, my point is just that weapons are important, and don't let anyone give you the idea they aren't. __________________ ____________ Captain Ombre Meurtrier 70 Assassin Mistmoore

05-07-2005, 10:38 PM	#9
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Cheno wrote: I would say sai's are good, but at higher levels, when you have 5-6 types of haste (self buff, fbss, slayer ring, dmorte spell, group buffs, etc.) the slower the weapon the better. When you have two sais that are what, 1.7 spd, compared to two leafblades that are 2.1... with so much haste, both will be hitting at the same speed but the leafblades will do far more damage. It's just my opinion, but I always look to get the slowest DW weapons possible, I'm currently using a ebon leafblade with polished granite axe for long fights when I need power, and another leafblade when I don't. Also, I've heard a lot of assassins say that weapons don't matter much for dps in the long run, that our CA are what give us the high DPS, however, after a few nights of parcing, I've noticed that my basic, auto-attack damage really builds up over time, my point is just that weapons are important, and don't let anyone give you the idea they aren't. You would be suprised how many traditional rogues are out there that think that weilding a spear is not very rougish. :p I went with sai's because I hated the way the spear looked and I went with leather armor because I hated the way the chain looked. After all.... looking good is everything.

05-09-2005, 08:39 PM	#10
ag General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 851	Cheno wrote: ... When you have two sais that are what, 1.7 spd, compared to two leafblades that are 2.1... with so much haste, both will be hitting at the same speed but the leafblades will do far more damage. ... Can you back this up with hard numbers? Or a dev post? Everything I've read to date has NOT indicated a minimum attack speed rate. As far as I know, haste scales linearly for all weapons, and there is no minimum attack rate cap, as it were.I'm not trying to be confrontational by asking this, but if there's new info out there that I missed, I'd like to see it.A 2.4 weapon should haste down to 1.2A 1.6 weapon should haste down to 0.8etc. __________________ 70 Brigand, 70 Coercer, 60 Bruiser, 50 Inquisitor 70 Alchemist, 70 Armorer, 70 Carpenter, 70 Provisioner, 40 Jeweler, 350 Tinkerer

05-09-2005, 09:04 PM	#11
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	/em eyes pop out It's a brigand!! Get her! :smileyvery-happy: Ok, your theory sounds simple enough with a 50% haste you would hit at 1.0 with a 2.0 weapon. But seriously that's just pretty hard to beleive due to a number of reasons. It's very easy to get over 100% haste at tier5, does this mean we hit infinitely fast? Take for example good ole Gleaming Strike with its misleading description of "5% on every hit". Turned out it was 5% every 3 seconds.. ugh. The truth is we have no clue about haste mechanics (well, at least I don't since I've never seen an official post about it). But I imagine there's probably a soft cap with deminishing returns in place somewhere. Maybe in the vicinity of 0.5 delay? Because any lower than that would exponentially increase your attack rate. In any case I'm almost certain that slower weapons will always have an advantage over fast ones when you're highly hasted. But I still wouldn't trade my looks for it, a spear is ugly, period. You like to parse a lot Agra, why don't you make some tests for us Say.. 5 minutes of meleeing with 0 haste, then repeat with 50% haste and finally, get some utility to help you get to 150% and do it again. Maybe throw in a variety of weapons short sword Vs. leafblade.. thanks

05-09-2005, 09:16 PM	#12
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	Hm.. actually, maybe there isn't a cap after all. We shouldn't look at our attack speed in terms of "delay". Let's suppose the "default" attack speed of your character is 2 hits every 1 second. Using a dagger with 1.0 delay would make you hit 1 time every 1 second. Now, adding to that a 150% increase in attack speed would make you hit 2.5 times every 1 second. Yes! I've got it! God, I can't beleive all the misconceptions I've had concerning attack speed :smileyindifferent: What a revelation! <.< Yay no deminishing returns! Yay no leafblade advantage other than proc rate on CAs! No need to be ugly to be effective! Gogo ebon shortsword next! rofl.. ok, now parse please Message Edited by Putka on 05-09-2005 10:31 AM

05-09-2005, 11:31 PM	#14
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	agra wrote: I swear, the next name I make is going to end in a consonant.. Are you trying to say you're not female then? Eew :smileyvery-happy: In any case, all the parsing to date shows no difference in imbued/intrinsic proc rate I said it only makes a difference in proc rate on combat arts. And you can't possibly deny the truth of that, since it's quite obvious even without any sort of parsing- 7.0 delay bows proc almost every time (wether it's poison, gleaming strike, swipe.. something is almost sure to go off on every CA, regardless how fast you chain them It's a stupid mechanic though, I would've done it differently). The only difference the weapon makes is with respect to your to-hit chance, given it's tier. What? First time I heard that.. I suppose this will be one of the things I will parse tonight. As well, the ebon weapons are all basically identical with respect to delay and damage, if you actually divide it out for average. This is not co-incidental. I think there are more things to consider here than just damage/delay, namely your base attack speed without weapons, and at which point the haste bonus is actually applied (before or after weapon delay? maybe it even affects only the delay itself?) I'd be more than happy to parse if I think it would reveal anything, or if I percieved a disparity. But I will stand by my statement that haste continues linearly down to ooh, probably something like 0.1 (not 1.0) delay, until corrected by a developer. Ok I'll do it tonight, since it's bugging me to no end now The above presume haste works thusly: 2.4 delay is 1.2 at 100%, and 0.6 at 200%, and 0.3 at 300% So i'd say the ebon leafblade is superioer at 400-500% haste. When you can sustain that haste >50% of your fighting time, I will admit defeat. Until then, long live the kris/hand-axe combo! I still think you're perceiving weapon delay in the wrong way.. I assume this delay simply presents a speed penalty to your base attack speed without an equipped weapon. And if that's true, then faster weapons actually have an increasing advantage over slower ones, the higher your haste %. I promise to test all of this . Oh.. and it's sai/short-sword Message Edited by Putka on 05-09-2005 12:33 PM

05-10-2005, 01:40 AM	#15
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	Ok here we go, didn't have much time but this is what I parsed.. 1) No weapons, no haste 100 attacks in 100 seconds. This is what I'll call base attack speed. Now, as I assumed, the displayed delay on each weapon means the ratio between base attack speed and weapon speed. 2) Sai (1.7), no haste 62 attacks in 100 seconds. As you can see my attack speed was now- base/1.7 3) PGT (1.2), no haste 85 attacks in 100 seconds. (base/1.2) 4) PGT (1.2), 63% haste 138 attacks in 100 seconds. The ratio between PGT (63%) and PGT (0%) is 1.6235. So, clearly the haste buff is applied after base/delay, which pretty much means you'll be getting the same damage with a short sword (1.2) and leafblade (2.1), regardless if your haste is 50% or 200%. Yeah.. it's pretty linear and boring I was hoping a fast weapon would be either more or less effective under certain conditions than a slow weapon. But still, who knows, maybe there is a cap at some point.. if you'll parse some extreme haste, let me know the results

05-12-2005, 09:08 PM	#16
Brianf Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 83	I thought the same thing about whips.... For now it is PGT and Imbued Feysteel stilletto for me... __________________ FurFang Clawtail- Ratonga 51 Assassin/29 Jeweler Legion of Qui Officer

05-13-2005, 12:13 AM	#17
Vuron Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57	I'm going to have to go against the grain and say "Armor". If you're talking about ebon, then you are getting to the point where you will probably start raiding, or at least doing some of the bigger quests. There are plenty of heritage rewards, quest rewards, and fabled weapons that are much better than any imbued weapon you can get. There seem to be very few fabled or rare medium armor pieces in the game that are better than imbued ebon.

05-13-2005, 05:30 AM	#18
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	There may be more fabled dw weapons than medium pieces, but you need a spare pierce and slash poker anyway Getting 4 fabled ones, 2 pierce, 2 slash isn't going to happen very soon

05-13-2005, 07:01 PM	#19
Vuron Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57	Yea, 4 fabled weapons may be a stretch. But you should still have SBD and SSOY to use if needed and would only need 1 slashing and 1 piercing after that. Getting the Heart of Fear weapon used to be preferred until it was nerfed, but it is still an OK weapon as a spare. I'd also be worried about the effects of the upcoming combat changes. It's in the test server patch notes that the quality of a weapon is going to start having an impact on combat, and player made weapons are pretty low on their list of quality. The problem that I have with armor, is that there are only about 2 medium chest pieces worth having that are better than imbued ebon. I guess we could go to light or a robe for raids, but that doesn't really help during normal play.

05-13-2005, 07:17 PM	#20
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	The problem is though, I consider the weapons you mentioned a little below my standards :smileyvery-happy: I really wouldn't want to be seen with them equipped, lol

05-13-2005, 09:49 PM	#21
Vuron Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57	I agree, but I meant that they would be the backups that you would carry around in your inventory to switch out on piercing/slashing raid mobs. I think it would be a huge waste to get an ebon weapon made to carry around in your backpack as a spare. Considering that pure melee only accounts for about 30% of your damage, and even less on raid mobs, I still think you're better off with armor that you can benefit from 100% of the time. I just think my main point is that once you start raiding, you will get weapons better than imbued ebon. There is a very good chance that you will not get a chest piece or legs better than imbued ebon (medium armor). Of course, if you've got Robe of the Invoker, you can disregard this argument unless you plan to solo. And I don't want to steal this thread, but has anyone else noticed that poisons seem to be hitting more on epics? Did Drayek and Zalak the other night and my poison proc'd constantly.

05-14-2005, 01:34 AM	#22
ZaranilShadowfie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 110	I'm going to have to agree with Putka in a very big way. Weapon quality already makes a difference right now. Imbued ebon weapons are legendary and they are much better than the things you have listed. If your getting into raiding then you need to have 2 slashers and 2 pierce. You don't NOT have them and then wait until you win them from a raid lol. And like Putka said, I wouldn't be caught dead using a herritage weapon or a bone razor. The fact is, ebon armor isn't even very good and it costs a lot of money. 4 ebon weapons are going to make a big difference in what you can do espically while raiding. 4 pieces of ebon armor is just going to make you look silly and rich. If you are taking hits, your doing something wrong, and if your taking hits ebon armor isn't going to save you. Rare leather has better stats than ebon does for a small reduction in ac and it is a fraction of the cost. Not to mention it looks a lot better. If your talking about ebons distributed through out a guild just getting into raiding, ebon given to scouts for armor is a total waste. And if it's just your ebon we are talking about, selling it for cash to buy masters is a much better idea. Bottom line: If you don't have 4 ebon weapons or better ( herirtage is not better ) you have no buisness buying ebon armor which isn't better than leather to begin with. Your weapons make a big difference in your dps despite what the above poster has stated. If you don't believe me try comparing yourself to a better equipped character on a raid parse. __________________

05-15-2005, 06:43 PM	#23
Triccer Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 135	What's wrong with heritage weapons? Comparing them with the PIEStuff I fail to see the huge difference. Pristine Imbued Ebon Short Sword - Tier: Legendary Damage Rating:24.6 Stats:+11 Strength +9 Agility +35 Health +33 Power Proc: Gleaming Strike Short Sword of the Ykesha - Tier: Legendary Damage Rating:24.6 Stats:+5 Strength +5 Intelligence +10 Agility +35 Health +35 Power Proc: Ykesha's Wrath Serrated Bone Dirk - Tier: Legendary Damage Rating:25.0 Stats:+6 Strength +7 Stamina +9 Agility +40 Health +32 Power Proc: No Proc So taking a look the damage ratio on the weapons is the same, the stats are insignificantly better on the PIESS, especially taking into account being raidbuffed. The proc is better on the PIESS. Still a proc that has a 5% base chance to go off every 3 seconds can't make all the difference. Heritage isn't better but it isnt much worse (if noticeable at all) either. So where's the point in saying "I wouldn't be caught dead using a heritage weapon"? That statement sounds slightly wannabe hardcore to me, but that might be a mistake in perception on my part. If there's some hidden extra rule rendering heritage weapons useless in certain circumstances, feel free to enlighten me.

05-15-2005, 08:47 PM	#24
Putka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 315	The problem with SBD is no proc. If you say that's insignificant.. you've got to be joking . In any case, it's surely more significant than the boost between crafted ebon armor and whatever you were wearing before it. The problem with SSOY is low STR and a rather weak proc. Triccer wrote: So where's the point in saying "I wouldn't be caught dead using a heritage weapon"? That statement sounds slightly wannabe hardcore to me, but that might be a mistake in perception on my part. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and wanting only the best you can get. Thats what seperates the most successful guilds from the rest I suppose.

05-15-2005, 09:14 PM	#25
Triccer Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 135	Oh, don't get me wrong there, getting the best you can get is totally fine with me. I'd agree with getting Masters on my skills first though, and not get me a PFE just for the sake of having it and not being labeled a noob when wielding heritage weapons. As for the stats, there was a nice post on the same boards comparing them and with the diminishing returns you get, I dont think there's much of a difference if any at all between 300 and 305 strength. Let me take a look at the proc... I didn't do parses, but I think what developers said were that there's not a certain chance to proc per hit, but a chance to proc every 3 seconds of fighting. I'm not completely sure how CAs affect that procrate but taken the most basic assumption of having a 5% chance of a proc every 3 seconds you will get about 175 : 20 : 3 = 3 damage per second (175 average damage on the proc with zero mitigation, 5% chance ro proc, 3 seconds between chances)from the proc on an PIE. 3 damage per second isn't neglectable, but compared to the overall dps of an assassin (I'm not an assassin so Im just assuming you are hitting rather hard) it's not that huge. And I'm pretty sure you can upgrade your dps better by investing into a Master CA. Yeah, every bit helps and if I had the choice between a heritage and a PIE I wouldn't hesitate a milisecond, but I'd set my priorities differently. Edit: Oh and what sets the best guilds apart from the rest are great determination and insane amounts of playtime. At least that was what I observed in EQ1... Message Edited by Triccer on 05-15-2005 10:21 AM

05-17-2005, 06:25 PM	#26
ZaranilShadowfie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 110	A swashie said I was "wannabe hardcore".... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] does that even mean?Stuff on ebon weapons by Ahlspiess __________________

05-17-2005, 11:18 PM	#27
dparker7 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 204	Ok, I try to find higher delay weapons not because of a haste floor/ceiling, but because of spamming CAs. If my 1.5 weapon and my 1.2 weapon are both hasted below 1second, when the autoattack goes off between my 2 CAs, I want the higher damage from the 1.5, because the lower delay is going to waste.