Parse data from 1000(ish) encounters

[ryan]

Every time I see this up on my screen it irritates me just a little bit more. Since the Original post of it was burried as a reply in a thread with an unrelated topic I figured I'd copy paste it to what would seem to be the appropriate place. The long awaited results:You all ready for this. . . .1st the group. . . We consisted of (at start of this xp grind session) 1 zerc 1 necro 1 warlock 1 me (ranger) 1 defiler 1 templar (and 1 necro's pet). Lvl 60 Since we're the type of guild we are NONE of ANY of our CA's are under Adept 3. Approximately 45% of the groups combined CAs are Masters. We are in predominately Fabled gear with about 30-40% legendary (either rare crafted or otherwise). I was using rare crafted poisons the entire fight and went through 7 CHARGES. (previously I would have in this period of time burned through probably more than 10 VIALS). We were fighting both Solo and grouped mobs about equally and ranged from 64^ to 66^^^ throughout the evening.Here's the Results after merging the encounters on ACT. The durations of which BTW lasterd 5 hours 4 mins and (around) 30 seconds and included somewhere around 1000 + or - encounters. . . We were together the entire time (minus one leaving early which you'll see) and naturally there were a few quick bios and snack runs and what not throughout the night by each of us Warlock's Numbers: Total DMG 3942213  kills 207  DPS 216.92  EXT DPS 215.72  Misses 3  Swings  5348Zerker's Numbers:    Total DMG 3618064  kills 173  DPS 198.03  EXT DPS 197.93  Misses 3481 Swings 33715Ranger's Numbers   Total DMG 3142820  Kills 143  DPS 172.05  EXT DPS 171.97  Misses 2852 Swings 14099Necro's Pet NumbersTotal DMG2406780  Kills 120 DPS 133.97  EXT DPS 131.70  Misses 4168  Swings 18123Necro's Numbers      Total DMG 2194094  Kills 120 DPS 120.40  Ext DPS 120.40  Misses 17  Swings 6203 (he said he was mostly debuffing handing hearts and heals)Templar's Numbers  Total DMG 1924366  Kills 89  DPS 115.22  EXT DPS 105.30  Misses 1275  Swings 9429 (his duration was 4 hours 38 mins and 22 seconds)Defiler's Numbers     Total DMG 379839  Kills 14  DPS 20.90  EXT DPS 20.78 Misses 845  Swings 4135Now let's look at where we stand if you combine the nero and his pet (as those numbers SHOULD be combined to provide accurate DPS standings for me within this group).DMG dealers in order during this 5 (and a few mins change) hour grind session#1 was Necro with 253.02 (him and pet combined) DPS#2 was Warlock with 216.92 DPS#3 was Zerker with 198.03 DPS#4 was Ranger with 172.05 DPS#5 wasTemp with 115.22 DPS#6 was Defiler with 20.90 DPSNow Wizzies, War, Rangers, Sins are suposed to (by devs admissions) be teir one. . .THIS IS A TON OF DATA. . . .A TON OF REAL LIVE SERVER TESTED DATA. . . can't argue the facts. I will keep all this data available for the inevitable person who posts and calls me a liar or not including everything or whatever they care to say about me. This right here is the facts. . . pure and simple numbers.

SpyronLevel 60 RangerFormerly on InnothuleCurrently on Crushbone

[Zodi]

Seems to me that Serkers are the ones who shouldnt be in the DPS tier 1 spot. Now thats something for the DEV's to look at.

 

[Sirlutt]

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Zodian wrote:

Seems to me that Serkers are the ones who shouldnt be in the DPS tier 1 spot. Now thats something for the DEV's to look at.

 

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Wrong response.  Nerfing Zerker is NOT the answer.  We need our DPS raised, not everyone elses knocked down.

[Money Mak]

Hey Spyron, thanks for the great data.  Its too bad we just suck now    Heres to hoping for some changes soon.

Templar dps ftw!

[Bithnar]

Necros arent suppose to be T1 period.  And for the ranger who has to pay cash for poisons and on the occation arrows to be 80% DPS of the Warlock just doesnt seem right.

[Caliga]

Yeah, they do need to fix this.  When I first got back on I had no trouble soloing.  I think I got lucky and my poison was procing a lot more than it is set for because sense then I either do well like I did that day or really really badly.  And its all dependant on if my poison procs or not.  I understand why they had to fix procs but they really need to give rangers something to balance it out.

[SmakenDah]

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ryantj wrote:THIS IS A TON OF DATA. . . .A TON OF REAL LIVE SERVER TESTED DATA. . . can't argue the facts. I will keep all this data available for the inevitable person who posts and calls me a liar or not including everything or whatever they care to say about me. This right here is the facts. . . pure and simple numbers.

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Yes you can argue it because there are a LARGE number of factors in gathering this data that could have been variable and could have skewed the numbers to this end result. There are a number of telling issues in what was posted.Why does the Ranger have less than half the number of swings than the Berserker does? (Why does he have fewer swings than the necro's pet?)Why does the Ranger have almost as many misses with fewer swings as the Berserker?Was the Ranger using a shield? Did he only attack when the mob was half dead or down a certain amount? Was there a level difference between the Berserker and Ranger? What level mob were they facing? Did some of the mobs have damage reduction/immunities to the weapons used by the Ranger? EDIT: Was the Ranger ONLY using his bow?Looking at the group make up, the Berserker should have been in defensive mode which should have reduced his attack rate/effectiveness (i.e. less swings or more misses).This doesn't seem right at all and do go saying that is the issue, the Ranger in this test was sitting on his hands for half of it - the number of swings illustrates that.

Message Edited by SmakenDahed on 02-24-200612:36 PM

[Bithnar]

Could the fact that a long bow has a 7 second delay on it and melee weapons are no where near that slow have anything to do with the number of "Swings" the ranger performed?

[Tasye]

SWINGS? Rangers are supposed to SWING the bow?Now I know what I am doing wrong. What end do I hit the mobs with? String end or wood end? Or pointy end? Top pointy end or bottom pointy end?

[Sirlutt]

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Bithnar wrote:

Could the fact that a long bow has a 7 second delay on it and melee weapons are no where near that slow have anything to do with the number of "Swings" the ranger performed?

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Its got everything to do with it.  Not sure, but the Zerker was probably DW, probably 1.2 or 1.5 delay weapons... he would get 4.6 swings with each weapon while we get one bow shot.. so about 9 swings to our 1 ... its not that cut and dry.. the Ranger might have melee'd some, the Zerker might have been only 1H or 2H, either way the Zerker is going to swing more.As for the # of misses, I've been noticing lately my bow misses alot more than my melee.  Alot of parries.

[Bithnar]

:smileytongue: I know I was being sarcastic

[Qrgauth]

I'm call BS on part of this.  I don't buy these numbers.  That's either because ACT is crap (which, IMO, it is), or because the intro paragraphs are deliberately misleading.If the berserker was tanking (presumably was) and not in a defensive posture (i.e. the group was fighting crap mobs so the zerk could DW, go offensive and not use a shield) and there were lots of crappy little v and vv mobs or solo mobs, the berserker area attacks (slaughter line, assault line, rampage line) would add up to a lot of bonus swings and a lot of bonus damage that wouldn't necessarily show fighting single ^^^ mobs of white, yellow or orange con where the zerk would need a shield, need a defensive stance, etc.That parse looks like the group was farming green and blue con v and vv mobs.  That would also help the necro pet rack up the DPS as well, particularly if the necro (and zerk) had levels on the ranger.But if you eliminate the specific weirdness of the berserker, the ranger appears to be similar (but less) in damage to the Warlock, which is, IIRC, exactly where they're supposed to be.  I'm pretty sure the game isn't balanced on farming greens or groups pasting solo mobs, incidentally.

Message Edited by Qrgauthil on 02-24-200601:34 PM

[SmakenDah]

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Tasye wrote:SWINGS? Rangers are supposed to SWING the bow?Now I know what I am doing wrong. What end do I hit the mobs with? String end or wood end? Or pointy end? Top pointy end or bottom pointy end?

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If a "swing" is defined as any time you do damage to something, then yes, you're swinging your bow every time you fire. My issue here is if the Ranger was only sitting back and using his bow, knowing full well the procs off multi-shots CAs were fixed and that it's delay was significantly higher than most weapons, then that ranger wasn't being used to it's most effective end and the test is not valid as a DPS test comparison.  If you want a valid DPS comparison for the bow use of various classes, perform 1000 fights with 1 tank taking agro and a Berserker only using a bow vs. a Ranger doing the same with both fully buffed.The bow used to be the most effective means of DPS due to the proc rate bug but now you MUST melee as well. Run the tests with that in mind and then if you still come out below most classes you can stick it to SOE.

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Sirlutt wrote:

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Bithnar wrote:

Could the fact that a long bow has a 7 second delay on it and melee weapons are no where near that slow have anything to do with the number of "Swings" the ranger performed?

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Its got everything to do with it.  Not sure, but the Zerker was probably DW, probably 1.2 or 1.5 delay weapons... he would get 4.6 swings with each weapon while we get one bow shot.. so about 9 swings to our 1 ... its not that cut and dry.. the Ranger might have melee'd some, the Zerker might have been only 1H or 2H, either way the Zerker is going to swing more.As for the # of misses, I've been noticing lately my bow misses alot more than my melee.  Alot of parries.

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To me, this test illustrates something of value coming from this data IF the Ranger was only using his bow and that would be: the miss rate is a bit high - if that could be divided up and showed 90% of that were parries then I'd be inclined to say parry is affecting the bow too much.You cannot play one aspect of a class' damage ability and rightly compare it to another class that is firing everything they have. That would be like comparing the Necromancer's DPS to the Berserker without including the pet's DPS.I've nothing against Rangers and I agree things seem like they're out of whack but please use data collected from valid test scenarios. If Rangers are no longer tier 1 because now you have to melee, then it's the Ranger's fault. If they're not Tier 1 even when meleeing, then it's SOE's fault and they need to fix it.

[Jay]

Our DPS should be roughly equal to the warlock, and everyone else s/b blow the two DPS classes, including the necromancer.

 

People are always going to nitpick and try to find ways to poke holes in parses, but the more of this kind of data we have, the harder is to allege that Poster_A somehow set up a group that would deliberately skew the data in the ranger's favor.

 

We're not trying to get away with anything here - we have nothing to hide. We're trying to regain the tools to effectively do our jobs.

Message Edited by Jay42 on 02-24-200601:45 PM

[Jay]

Message Edited by Jay42 on 02-24-200601:43 PM

[Sirlutt]

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SmakenDahed wrote:I've nothing against Rangers and I agree things seem like they're out of whack but please use data collected from valid test scenarios. If Rangers are no longer tier 1 because now you have to melee, then it's the Ranger's fault. If they're not Tier 1 even when meleeing, then it's SOE's fault and they need to fix it.

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2 points.  We dont want to have to melee to be tier 1... were Rangers.. not assassins .. we specialise in bows.. our DPS should come from that... in fact I'd go as far to say that I'd be far happier if they kep the proc changes, removed our ability to use poisons, and let us use our bow attacks point blank.point #2 is were not tier1 DPS when we melee .. we have 4 melee attacks that do damage and if I remember correctly none of them do over 350 damage. (lvl 59 all adept 1) .. were not designed to be a Tier 1 melee class.. we are a tier 1 ranged class... we arent assassins.

[SmakenDah]

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Qrgauthil wrote:

I'm call BS on part of this.  I don't buy these numbers.  That's either because ACT is crap (which, IMO, it is), or because the intro paragraphs are deliberately misleading.If the berserker was tanking (presumably was) and not in a defensive posture (i.e. the group was fighting crap mobs so the zerk could DW, go offensive and not use a shield) and there were lots of crappy little v and vv mobs or solo mobs, the berserker area attacks (slaughter line, assault line, rampage line) would add up to a lot of bonus swings and a lot of bonus damage that wouldn't necessarily show fighting single ^^^ mobs of white, yellow or orange con where the zerk would need a shield, need a defensive stance, etc.That parse looks like the group was farming green and blue con v and vv mobs.  That would also help the necro pet rack up the DPS as well, particularly if the necro (and zerk) had levels on the ranger.But if you eliminate the specific weirdness of the berserker, the ranger appears to be similar (but less) in damage to the Warlock, which is, IIRC, exactly where they're supposed to be.  I'm pretty sure the game isn't balanced on farming greens or groups pasting solo mobs, incidentally.

Message Edited by Qrgauthil on 02-24-200601:34 PM

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That's actually a good point about the Berserker AEs. But I don't know if I'd be content with 44 point per second different between classes that are supposed to be in the same tier... that works out to a difference of about 2600 damage in a minute (4800 for a necro which is supposed to be in the tier under them).I'm still not convinced that would account for the serker having more than double the Ranger's number of swings. Also, does the necro pet AE? If not why does it have more swings than the Ranger? If so, why isn't it closer to the serker in # of swings?

[Sirlutt]

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SmakenDahed wrote:

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Qrgauthil wrote:

I'm call BS on part of this.  I don't buy these numbers.  That's either because ACT is crap (which, IMO, it is), or because the intro paragraphs are deliberately misleading.If the berserker was tanking (presumably was) and not in a defensive posture (i.e. the group was fighting crap mobs so the zerk could DW, go offensive and not use a shield) and there were lots of crappy little v and vv mobs or solo mobs, the berserker area attacks (slaughter line, assault line, rampage line) would add up to a lot of bonus swings and a lot of bonus damage that wouldn't necessarily show fighting single ^^^ mobs of white, yellow or orange con where the zerk would need a shield, need a defensive stance, etc.That parse looks like the group was farming green and blue con v and vv mobs.  That would also help the necro pet rack up the DPS as well, particularly if the necro (and zerk) had levels on the ranger.But if you eliminate the specific weirdness of the berserker, the ranger appears to be similar (but less) in damage to the Warlock, which is, IIRC, exactly where they're supposed to be.  I'm pretty sure the game isn't balanced on farming greens or groups pasting solo mobs, incidentally.

Message Edited by Qrgauthil on 02-24-200601:34 PM

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That's actually a good point about the Berserker AEs. But I don't know if I'd be content with 44 point per second different between classes that are supposed to be in the same tier... that works out to a difference of about 2600 damage in a minute (4800 for a necro which is supposed to be in the tier under them).I'm still not convinced that would account for the serker having more than double the Ranger's number of swings. Also, does the necro pet AE? If not why does it have more swings than the Ranger? If so, why isn't it closer to the serker in # of swings?

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Gah .. simple math .. 7.0 WS vs 1.5 WS .. even if the zerker is using a 3.0 WS 2H thats still OVER TWICE AS FAST AS A BOW.Its not rocket science... bows shoot slow.. in a group a ranger is going to be ranged 90% of the time, onyl stepping in close to melee when his ranged arts are all refreshing.seriously..i really wish all you people wouldnt stop by the Ranger forums and discuss aspects of gameplay that you dont freaking understand .. roll a ranger.. play a ranger.. then come back and discuss it... i've played every single class between 10 live characters and 10 test characters.. i did that so that when i am working with other characters i know what buffs and skills they have.. i can ask for them to do specific things when fighting, or to put specific buffs on my guardian.. or ranger.. or zerker.. or wizard or what ever i am playing.that goes for any forum, not just the ranger forum.. so much stuff is based on conjecture on this forum..  play a class before you decide to tell someone who has played it how it works.

[Moncreat]

First off thank you for the information that you collected Ryantj.

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Smaken Dahed writes  

If you want a valid DPS comparison for the bow use of various classes, perform 1000 fights with 1 tank taking agro and a Berserker only using a bow vs. a Ranger doing the same with both fully buffed.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

That would be a very good comparison, however there are some things that are amiss here.  If I put the same bow in a Beserkers hands as I put in a rangers hands and then just hit auto attack then the bows should do the same amount of damage because that is the nature of the bow.  I would however suspect that a Beserker would do actually more damage because his str would probably be higher that the rangers.

Rangers however have Bow CA's where as a Beserker does not so the comparison would be askew also.  Just the same as if you compared a ranger's toe to toe combat to a Beserker's toe to toe combat with the same exact weapons.  The Beserker would come out way on top because of the CA's that he has compared to the toe to toe combat CA's of a Ranger.

This is part of the balancing of classes.  Each class is good at something and in a group they need to use that.

When I play my level 60 ranger in a group I give the tank up to 3 seconds ( according to what the tank class is) to get agro and then start with a chain of arrow CAs making sure to use my agro reducing arrows CA in there so as not to move the mob from the tank.  I cycle through those, all at the same time that my auto attack with my bow continues to fire.  I then move in behind the mob and cycle through my combat CA's, a little back stabbing and then back out to go through my arrow CA's again since most of them are on a 2 minute or more recast time.

I have not parsed as much data as Ryantj has said he has but the data I have parsed in group shows my dps to be about the same, I will go back and look at the number of misses that I have made.  But the lack of swings might not be because he sat on his hands most the fight but the fact that you have to be back away from the mob to use arrow CA's and then move in to use combat CA's, this wastes some time in the group and the timer on the Bow is much, much slower that that of the weapons in primary and secondary slots.

I truely do not think Ryantj is trying to mislead anyone.  There has been noticable difference.  I was never one to put a slow weapon in one of my hands to get more procs from my poisons basically because I did not know it would make a difference.  However most poisons say they have a 25% chance to proc on a successful hit and the first day of KOS this was far from the case, the next day it was getting closer so only time will tell.

[SmakenDah]

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Sirlutt wrote:

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SmakenDahed wrote:I've nothing against Rangers and I agree things seem like they're out of whack but please use data collected from valid test scenarios. If Rangers are no longer tier 1 because now you have to melee, then it's the Ranger's fault. If they're not Tier 1 even when meleeing, then it's SOE's fault and they need to fix it.

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2 points.  We dont want to have to melee to be tier 1... were Rangers.. not assassins .. we specialise in bows.. our DPS should come from that... in fact I'd go as far to say that I'd be far happier if they kep the proc changes, removed our ability to use poisons, and let us use our bow attacks point blank.point #2 is were not tier1 DPS when we melee .. we have 4 melee attacks that do damage and if I remember correctly none of them do over 350 damage. (lvl 59 all adept 1) .. were not designed to be a Tier 1 melee class.. we are a tier 1 ranged class... we arent assassins.

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#1 Honestly, I would agree to something like that, though using a bow in close range seems screwy... Really I think SOE fixed the bug and are looking at how it's impacted you guys (and gals). Once they have an solid idea about how things are now, they'll tweak you up to where you're supposed to be... Or knock others down a peg (as much as people would hate that, things are still too east in this game and everyone being able to dish out loads of damage is part of that issue)#2 - I actually think you've got a number of abilities that do more than that, don't you have a backstab type. Unfortunately, I think the use of melee for damage is partly a product of the original 'scout' archeteype. I'd also argue right now you are much closer to Asssassins in DPS :smileyhappy:

[SmakenDah]

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Sirlutt wrote:

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SmakenDahed wrote:

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Qrgauthil wrote:

I'm call BS on part of this.  I don't buy these numbers.  That's either because ACT is crap (which, IMO, it is), or because the intro paragraphs are deliberately misleading.If the berserker was tanking (presumably was) and not in a defensive posture (i.e. the group was fighting crap mobs so the zerk could DW, go offensive and not use a shield) and there were lots of crappy little v and vv mobs or solo mobs, the berserker area attacks (slaughter line, assault line, rampage line) would add up to a lot of bonus swings and a lot of bonus damage that wouldn't necessarily show fighting single ^^^ mobs of white, yellow or orange con where the zerk would need a shield, need a defensive stance, etc.That parse looks like the group was farming green and blue con v and vv mobs.  That would also help the necro pet rack up the DPS as well, particularly if the necro (and zerk) had levels on the ranger.But if you eliminate the specific weirdness of the berserker, the ranger appears to be similar (but less) in damage to the Warlock, which is, IIRC, exactly where they're supposed to be.  I'm pretty sure the game isn't balanced on farming greens or groups pasting solo mobs, incidentally.

Message Edited by Qrgauthil on 02-24-200601:34 PM

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That's actually a good point about the Berserker AEs. But I don't know if I'd be content with 44 point per second different between classes that are supposed to be in the same tier... that works out to a difference of about 2600 damage in a minute (4800 for a necro which is supposed to be in the tier under them).I'm still not convinced that would account for the serker having more than double the Ranger's number of swings. Also, does the necro pet AE? If not why does it have more swings than the Ranger? If so, why isn't it closer to the serker in # of swings?

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Gah .. simple math .. 7.0 WS vs 1.5 WS .. even if the zerker is using a 3.0 WS 2H thats still OVER TWICE AS FAST AS A BOW.Its not rocket science... bows shoot slow.. in a group a ranger is going to be ranged 90% of the time, onyl stepping in close to melee when his ranged arts are all refreshing.seriously..i really wish all you people wouldnt stop by the Ranger forums and discuss aspects of gameplay that you dont freaking understand .. roll a ranger.. play a ranger.. then come back and discuss it... i've played every single class between 10 live characters and 10 test characters.. i did that so that when i am working with other characters i know what buffs and skills they have.. i can ask for them to do specific things when fighting, or to put specific buffs on my guardian.. or ranger.. or zerker.. or wizard or what ever i am playing.that goes for any forum, not just the ranger forum.. so much stuff is based on conjecture on this forum..  play a class before you decide to tell someone who has played it how it works.

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Again, why are you only using a bow? Do you not also have a backstab and melee combat arts. Don't parse based on half your damage capabilities and compare it to someone using all of theirs. If, even using all the CAs, you're finding berserkers are out damaging you then SOE shouldn't be able to deny anything. Also note that with less than half the number of 'swings' and almost as many 'misses' you're still pretty darn close to berserkers.

[Sirlutt]

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SmakenDahed wrote:

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Sirlutt wrote:

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SmakenDahed wrote:I've nothing against Rangers and I agree things seem like they're out of whack but please use data collected from valid test scenarios. If Rangers are no longer tier 1 because now you have to melee, then it's the Ranger's fault. If they're not Tier 1 even when meleeing, then it's SOE's fault and they need to fix it.

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2 points.  We dont want to have to melee to be tier 1... were Rangers.. not assassins .. we specialise in bows.. our DPS should come from that... in fact I'd go as far to say that I'd be far happier if they kep the proc changes, removed our ability to use poisons, and let us use our bow attacks point blank.point #2 is were not tier1 DPS when we melee .. we have 4 melee attacks that do damage and if I remember correctly none of them do over 350 damage. (lvl 59 all adept 1) .. were not designed to be a Tier 1 melee class.. we are a tier 1 ranged class... we arent assassins.

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#1 Honestly, I would agree to something like that, though using a bow in close range seems screwy... Really I think SOE fixed the bug and are looking at how it's impacted you guys (and gals). Once they have an solid idea about how things are now, they'll tweak you up to where you're supposed to be... Or knock others down a peg (as much as people would hate that, things are still too east in this game and everyone being able to dish out loads of damage is part of that issue)#2 - I actually think you've got a number of abilities that do more than that, don't you have a backstab type. Unfortunately, I think the use of melee for damage is partly a product of the original 'scout' archeteype. I'd also argue right now you are much closer to Asssassins in DPS :smileyhappy:

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I'd rather they raised our damage than knocked anyone down ..  I think though if anyone should be able to use bows point blank (except for Stream of Arrows) it is us.. we are the masters of the bow.True we have those, but they are positional attacks and very difficult to get off in solo .. expecially now the stun of our only stun attack is alot less.  When soloing we can get one, sometimes 2 ranged CA off, then the mob closes to melee distance.  Its then debuff, cycle through our 4 melee CA and hit stun.. back up hit a short casting melee CA (doesnt always manage to hit these days with the shorter stun) and then we are back to melee, cept none of our melee arts are up .. so we wait.. its then melee, stun, ranged CA till the mob is dead.  Its not all that effective actually.

[Sirlutt]

we use our melee combat arts aswell .. but we need to run in close to the mob to use them so typically its fire all your ranged CA's .. run in.. get off your back stab, flametongue and then your melee Ca's and run back out to use your bow again.  If i wasnt using my melee CA's i'd parse a LOT lower.. as it is i use everything i can when it makes sense to do so and am still what I would consider low ..

[SmakenDah]

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Moncreathe wrote:

First off thank you for the information that you collected Ryantj.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

Smaken Dahed writes  

If you want a valid DPS comparison for the bow use of various classes, perform 1000 fights with 1 tank taking agro and a Berserker only using a bow vs. a Ranger doing the same with both fully buffed.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

That would be a very good comparison, however there are some things that are amiss here.  If I put the same bow in a Beserkers hands as I put in a rangers hands and then just hit auto attack then the bows should do the same amount of damage because that is the nature of the bow.  I would however suspect that a Beserker would do actually more damage because his str would probably be higher that the rangers.IMO this is what gives the Ranger the edge when using only a bow vs. other classes that are only using a bow.

Rangers however have Bow CA's where as a Beserker does not so the comparison would be askew also.  Just the same as if you compared a ranger's toe to toe combat to a Beserker's toe to toe combat with the same exact weapons.  The Beserker would come out way on top because of the CA's that he has compared to the toe to toe combat CA's of a Ranger.I'm iffy on this thought because I suspect the Berserker's CAs do less damage than your CAs, including you back stab ability. Now if you were just going autoattack vs. autoattack, the Berserker might come out on top  assuming it wasn't tanking.

This is part of the balancing of classes.  Each class is good at something and in a group they need to use that.

When I play my level 60 ranger in a group I give the tank up to 3 seconds ( according to what the tank class is) to get agro and then start with a chain of arrow CAs making sure to use my agro reducing arrows CA in there so as not to move the mob from the tank.  I cycle through those, all at the same time that my auto attack with my bow continues to fire.  I then move in behind the mob and cycle through my combat CA's, a little back stabbing and then back out to go through my arrow CA's again since most of them are on a 2 minute or more recast time.Really, this sounds like the ideal thing to do - it's not possible solo since the mob is going to follow and enter minimum bow range (issue someone mentioned above and I don't think I like that either; i..e. you shouldn't lose almost half your abilities when soloing because almost none of the other classes do - this is bad design)

I have not parsed as much data as Ryantj has said he has but the data I have parsed in group shows my dps to be about the same, I will go back and look at the number of misses that I have made.  But the lack of swings might not be because he sat on his hands most the fight but the fact that you have to be back away from the mob to use arrow CA's and then move in to use combat CA's, this wastes some time in the group and the timer on the Bow is much, much slower that that of the weapons in primary and secondary slots.Apparently he was using solo mobs - and I think I agree, a lot of the berserker's damage likely came from the fact it wasn't in defensive stance and was probably dual wielding. Really, it wasn't in its 'tank role' but it's interesting to see since the ranger likely wasn't in its tank mode. I wonder how many of those mobs he didn't get a chance to attack because someone else mowed it down?

I truely do not think Ryantj is trying to mislead anyone.  There has been noticable difference.  I was never one to put a slow weapon in one of my hands to get more procs from my poisons basically because I did not know it would make a difference.  However most poisons say they have a 25% chance to proc on a successful hit and the first day of KOS this was far from the case, the next day it was getting closer so only time will tell.I don't think I said that, if I implied that then I apologize. I don't think this parse reveals what it is intended to reveal and I don't believe it is a valid testing scenario for actually comparing DPS. There is also some data interpretation issues among the masses who focus only on small aspects like: Berserker DPS was higher? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?!

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[purebree]

One thing i dont think the parsers do is attribute damage buffs to the owner. was the berzerker given proc and damage shield buffs by the other group members? if so a good chunk of his dps should be added to the other members.

[SmakenDah]

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Sirlutt wrote:

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SmakenDahed wrote:

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Sirlutt wrote:

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SmakenDahed wrote:I've nothing against Rangers and I agree things seem like they're out of whack but please use data collected from valid test scenarios. If Rangers are no longer tier 1 because now you have to melee, then it's the Ranger's fault. If they're not Tier 1 even when meleeing, then it's SOE's fault and they need to fix it.

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2 points.  We dont want to have to melee to be tier 1... were Rangers.. not assassins .. we specialise in bows.. our DPS should come from that... in fact I'd go as far to say that I'd be far happier if they kep the proc changes, removed our ability to use poisons, and let us use our bow attacks point blank.point #2 is were not tier1 DPS when we melee .. we have 4 melee attacks that do damage and if I remember correctly none of them do over 350 damage. (lvl 59 all adept 1) .. were not designed to be a Tier 1 melee class.. we are a tier 1 ranged class... we arent assassins.

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#1 Honestly, I would agree to something like that, though using a bow in close range seems screwy... Really I think SOE fixed the bug and are looking at how it's impacted you guys (and gals). Once they have an solid idea about how things are now, they'll tweak you up to where you're supposed to be... Or knock others down a peg (as much as people would hate that, things are still too east in this game and everyone being able to dish out loads of damage is part of that issue)#2 - I actually think you've got a number of abilities that do more than that, don't you have a backstab type. Unfortunately, I think the use of melee for damage is partly a product of the original 'scout' archeteype. I'd also argue right now you are much closer to Asssassins in DPS :smileyhappy:

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I'd rather they raised our damage than knocked anyone down ..  I think though if anyone should be able to use bows point blank (except for Stream of Arrows) it is us.. we are the masters of the bow.True we have those, but they are positional attacks and very difficult to get off in solo .. expecially now the stun of our only stun attack is alot less.  When soloing we can get one, sometimes 2 ranged CA off, then the mob closes to melee distance.  Its then debuff, cycle through our 4 melee CA and hit stun.. back up hit a short casting melee CA (doesnt always manage to hit these days with the shorter stun) and then we are back to melee, cept none of our melee arts are up .. so we wait.. its then melee, stun, ranged CA till the mob is dead.  Its not all that effective actually.

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As I noted in an inline reply to another poster I, personally, think this was bad design on SOE's part. Having a class lose almost half their combat arts or abilities because they're soloing is not a good thing.My bunch of misfits (2 berserkers, though one might jump to SK, a wizard, a ranger and me - warden) will be on tonight and I've no doubt that there will be parsers running throughout the night (namely heroic mobs and named). I'll see if I can add some other things of note but what ends up getting posted (if I can) will be a simple collection of data that illustrates the amount of damage done by members of my group throughout the night. I'm not going to aim at any specific test.

[Qrgauth]

My previous post sounds stronger than its meant to be, for that I apologise.  This should be a more fair, less confrontational post.The OP said he was fighting a lot of solos.Here's the reality check:1. In that situation, the berserker would rarely have to go defensive, equip a shield, etc.  I play a 53 Berserker.  Defensive berserker is GROSSLY reduced in DPS because the defensive buffs all slow.  Add to that the fact that the berserker AEs would have a LOT less effect (hitting less, KILLING less) and the berserker DPS would be way down.  It is my contention that this parse is a situation that SPECIFICALLY highlights the best possible situation for berserker DPS and is, therefore an unfair comparison.2. In that situation the necromancer, with his AEs and pet can take on 2 or more mobs at a time.  He can carve a high-speed swath through solo mobs.  With solo mobs, the necro also doesn't have to worry about drawing aggro and getting pasted for it.   I play a 57 necro.  IMO, there is little doubt that a necromancer is a better soloer than a ranger, or a warlock.  So again, groups of little solo mobs would highlight a necro's damage dealing abilities.3. A ranger can take on essentially 1 mob at a time, and if the damage is high enough dust the mob quickly - then he has to switch targets, which wastes time and if a bow shot kills a mob, he switches targets and waits for the bow to cycle, wasting time.  It is my contention that the situation parsed above therefore highlights a near worst-case scenario for ranger fighting.Among my characters I have a troubador.  Troubadors have melee and bow CAs.  Personally, I find myself dodging in and out, switching between melee and bow to maximize DPS.  To wail away with one or the other would not be efficient.  Although troubadors are not rangers, I can't believe the mechanic is that dissimilar.So although the parse is interesting, I contend that it is flawed in that the situation specifically allows two of the classes presented to exercise their abilities to maximum possible advantage while putting the ranger in a disadvantaged position.Show me a parse of 4 hours of camping 90% ^^^ white/yellow/orange regular and named mobs with that group and you might convince me.  The harder mobs would cause the berserker to actually tank instead of wailing away with AEs on crowds of weak mobs.  Similarly, the necro would be subject to more resists and unable to drive his own DPS up by attacking multiple mobs.  Also, he'd have to be careful about drawing aggro, which also lowers DPS.  With a longer fight, the ranger should be more effective (less time wasted changing targets, DoT CA's can be used to effect).Right now you've only shown that rangers do damage comparable to warlocks, which is what they're supposed to be doing.

Message Edited by Qrgauthil on 02-24-200603:21 PM

[Thay]

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SmakenDahed wrote:

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Qrgauthil wrote:

I'm call BS on part of this.  I don't buy these numbers.  That's either because ACT is crap (which, IMO, it is), or because the intro paragraphs are deliberately misleading.If the berserker was tanking (presumably was) and not in a defensive posture (i.e. the group was fighting crap mobs so the zerk could DW, go offensive and not use a shield) and there were lots of crappy little v and vv mobs or solo mobs, the berserker area attacks (slaughter line, assault line, rampage line) would add up to a lot of bonus swings and a lot of bonus damage that wouldn't necessarily show fighting single ^^^ mobs of white, yellow or orange con where the zerk would need a shield, need a defensive stance, etc.That parse looks like the group was farming green and blue con v and vv mobs.  That would also help the necro pet rack up the DPS as well, particularly if the necro (and zerk) had levels on the ranger.But if you eliminate the specific weirdness of the berserker, the ranger appears to be similar (but less) in damage to the Warlock, which is, IIRC, exactly where they're supposed to be.  I'm pretty sure the game isn't balanced on farming greens or groups pasting solo mobs, incidentally.

Message Edited by Qrgauthil on 02-24-200601:34 PM

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That's actually a good point about the Berserker AEs. But I don't know if I'd be content with 44 point per second different between classes that are supposed to be in the same tier... that works out to a difference of about 2600 damage in a minute (4800 for a necro which is supposed to be in the tier under them).I'm still not convinced that would account for the serker having more than double the Ranger's number of swings. Also, does the necro pet AE? If not why does it have more swings than the Ranger? If so, why isn't it closer to the serker in # of swings?

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As a Ranger and Necro (both in 50's) I can answer that by saying maybe the Necro had the assassin pet up. Assassin pet is DW and melees like a mofo.As a ranger It seems like forever to get bow shots off in autoattack while jousting to stay out of AOE range...Just my .02

[leafnin]

Who's to say the pet isn't tanking ?  I've been in groups where the necro pet was our tank and a good DPS group is able to take out those type of mobs fast.  Also if the zerker is tanking those encounters he wouldn't necessarily have to be in defensive stance with that group setup most things would die very quickly as that group is pretty high DPS for any type of encounter.  I'm not saying this is what happened, but I am saying either of those two scenarios aren't impossible.  You can give any reason you believe that I'm wrong just as I can give any reasons your wrong.  It depends too much on factors either you or anyone but the OP knows.  Players are too smart they'll find ingenious ways to work with the most improbable of group setups .

 

Falcon

60 Ranger

Kithicor 

Message Edited by leafnin on 02-24-200612:43 PM

[Generic123]

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SmakenDahed wrote:

As I noted in an inline reply to another poster I, personally, think this was bad design on SOE's part. Having a class lose almost half their combat arts or abilities because they're soloing is not a good thing.

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Having DPS classes loose most of their attacks is an essential part of balancing solo vs group play.  Ultimately all xp (and loot for that matter) comes from doing damage to a mob, heals, crowd control, tanking all support that but you get no direct rewards from them, the only thing that gives you combat rewards is damage.  

Because of this, if you don’t cripple their DPS in solo situations damage classes end up getting better xp/hour solo then they do in groups because they don’t have to share the xp they are creating with other, lower DPS classes.  You see exactly the same thing with Sorcerers.  They loose 80% of their attacks in solo situations due to the necessity to keep mobs rooted and at a distance.