Need some questions answered(again)

ToxicMan · 02-18-2006, 07:59 PM

I need to get something answered again, asked some question some days back, and now i'am here again SMILEY

So after the latest update 19 and soon to come update 20:will the dmg of the ranger get really low?will the solo ability of the ranger get better/worse?what do you think about the ranger now? do you still like it, or are you thinking of reroll to another class?after update 20 goes live, which other class can you compare the dps of the ranger with?and which other class can you compare the solo ability to the ranger with?Thats all i think SMILEY

because i really like how the ranger is, the only thing stopping me for playing as a ranger is that i'am afraid that the ranger will not be able to solo, do dmg/dps in the future...

Llaere · 02-18-2006, 09:24 PM

ToxicMan wrote:I need to get something answered again, asked some question some days back, and now i'am here again So after the latest update 19 and soon to come update 20:will the dmg of the ranger get really low? Maybe at first, but give it a few weeks and those of us committed to this class will figure out how to re-max that damage as much as possiblewill the solo ability of the ranger get better/worse? This one scares me a bit...I fortunately have a great guild and rarely solo...but I feel for you rangers that solo a lot, with stuns not being a sure thing now good luck...but again, we'll adapt and survivewhat do you think about the ranger now? do you still like it, or are you thinking of reroll to another class? Ranger for ever for meafter update 20 goes live, which other class can you compare the dps of the ranger with? No one will know until it goes live, SOE in the past has a habit of putting things on test and making tweaks with them the night before they roll out and not telling anyone and which other class can you compare the solo ability to the ranger with? Again it's kind of a wait and see thing if you ask me, give it a few weeks after it rolls outThats all i think because i really like how the ranger is, the only thing stopping me for playing as a ranger is that i'am afraid that the ranger will not be able to solo, do dmg/dps in the future...If you are afraid of the solo ability, I can see that...if you are afraid of the dmg/dps I say just wait and keep reading the forums. You will probably have to wade through post upon post of whining and complaining(some justified) but there is a good group of people here who will post what they can to help everyone out. I don't think we are going to be completely useless, but again these are all just the opionions of one ranger.

Good luck mate and chin up, we'll figure this out and I don't think it's going to be as bad as some people are making it out to be. At the very least we won't be spending nearly as much in poison costs! SMILEY

hehe

ToxicMan · 02-18-2006, 09:54 PM

Thanks a lot for that reply, thats what i want to see =)Anyway, yea you have right, the problem is that i read a lot of postes and say 70% of those are like the ones that whine or say that we are getting nerfed and stuff, and not easy to find a post where you can read some very good opinions about a class, so sometimes it really get hard to choose a class for me.I have the last weeks played as a monk and he has a good solo ability, but i want to check other classes to so i don't miss anything, thats why i'am back here asking again, because ranger may be the next class i want to test.

ToxicMan · 02-19-2006, 02:35 PM

Anyone else have something to say? SMILEY

I don't mind some more replys =)

Zholain · 02-20-2006, 12:54 AM

I'd say that Llaereth has a pretty good outlook, and I probably share his opinion. In the past (pre LU13), and probably going back as far as last January or February, there were a select few rangers who really excelled at making the most of the capabilities that the ranger had. Despite the shortcomings of the class, these rangers figured out a way to still make themselves useful in raids, wanted in groups, and effective solo'ers. They shared their knowledge, and many of us learned from their advice. I expect we will see something similar after LU20.Don't get me wrong. I'm truly horrified at the reports I'm seeing from beta. It is my opinion (and honestly just that, so it means nothing really) that SOE did not put a lot of thought into improving our DPS in LU13. I think someone just came up with the idea of making us proc machines and they just rolled with it. I never was really a fan of so much of our damage coming from procs. The majority of DPS should come from player ability. Not from a random number generator. Regardless, I think they now realize that they gave us too many procs and are on a path to correct that. However, it seems that they have taken away SO many procs without fixing the base damage of other things that we may be stuck down in a mediocre DPS tier instead of t1 where we belong. And there's no telling how long that will last. Anyway, that is my opinion.I am fortunate that I am in a guild that focuses on what the player is willing to contribute rather than the type of character they bring to the raid, so I probably don't have to be concerned about being denied access to our guild activities. But I'm sure that won't be the case for the more hard-core guilds, and even some of the not-so-hard-core guilds. You either love the class or you don't. Those of us who love it will continue to play our rangers.

Message Edited by Zholain on 02-19-200602:55 PM

Jayad · 02-20-2006, 01:49 AM

My opinion..

Yes LU20 will go live as it is, because they are fixing a "bug", in their minds. To understand the problem, basically with procs doing all this damage, and the new expansion offering enchancements to them, Rangers became too powerful for people who knew how to maximize the system as it is. I have no problem with us being toned down a bit, but SOE is taking the 5000 pound sledgehammer to the class instead of fixing us.

If you have analyzed your class and play properly, you should be doing about 55-60% of your damage off of procs. This means if you are doing 800 dps, more than 400 of it comes from poison, stances, your bow imbue, etc. Let's say it's 450 dps from your procs. With the new changes, according to my analysis and what others have posted, I expect that number to drop by about 90% or more. Let's say that you use a high DOT poison instead of initial DD poison, because you know how to play. I still expect your dps to be below 400. According to Rangers on beta, this is about where it is. I honestly don't believe there is much to adjust. You can only cast CAs and do autoattacks for damage, so what do you do? We already cast CAs as fast as possible. Sure we will optimize STR first for maximum CA and Auto damage, and then INT for DOT poison and haste for speed, but it won't replace most of our dps.

Ranger dps will be very bad for a while. Yes, it's not horrible compared to say any random class, but it will be bad compared to preds/sorcerors/summoners. We won't be anywhere near warlocks, wizzies, conjurors and necros, and I expect assassins to be less impacted than we are so they will still be okay.

OK so we can probably do the same dps as a swashie or a brigand, but is any predator going to be okay with that? We don't do anything but damage, whereas they can do so much more.

To answer your question on solo ability, it's going to be awful. First, you have to understand that Rangers are inherently "bad" at soloing. The reason is almost all of our damage has to be cast at range. If they are on top of us, we can do almost nothing, just some very sad melee CAs. This problem is masked by the fact that we can do so much damage in a quick burst, they are often dead or near-dead by the time they close with us. If they do close with us, we have either a root we have cast beforehand, or we can stun them once per X seconds. Generally speaking, right now most solo mobs don't stand a chance because we can do so much damage before they get close. The problem is, when you remove more than half of our big hit damage, they will be getting to us with 80-90% health instead of 20%, and after you stun and range them quickly they will still be at 70% or more likely. At that point, you have nothing.

Before LU13, Rangers could cast their CAs on the run, so if you could keep the mob slowed and at range you could just run them along while you pepper them (this is known as kiting). This is not an option now, so I think we are in deep doodoo in terms of soloing. Also, reports from beta are that the root spell (from 52) is not reliable at all anymore. It breaks very easily. (It breaks fairly easily now, but because our burst dps is so high it is not a problem)

I think SOE will eventually fix these problems, don't get me wrong, but it could be months before they do. What they have done to other classes is not encouraging for a rapid resolution to issues we bring up. The ranger community is fairly mature, so I think intelligent analysis and proposed solutions will help, but I think this change is a poor one that does not need to be made. There are many classes they have broken (guardians for example) which have *never* been fixed. SOE doesn't even understand why it's a problem. SOE might just look at our damage CAs and say, "We don't see a problem here". What do you do then? It is what they have said to Guardians. No, I don't play a guardian, but I understand why they're upset.

So in summary... hold onto your pants, we're going for a ride!

Mithremakor · 02-21-2006, 06:30 AM

So, any idea what are the buffs in the expansion that are supposed to make up for our proc nerfs?

klepp · 02-21-2006, 07:14 AM

none, we suck now.. are solo ability is totally smoked, our dps is smoked, our utility stays the same (nill)

this is unreal.. lol soe is fuuuunny

leafnin · 02-21-2006, 08:20 AM

Llaereth wrote:
ToxicMan wrote:I need to get something answered again, asked some question some days back, and now I'm here again So after the latest update 19 and soon to come update 20:will the dmg of the ranger get really low? Maybe at first, but give it a few weeks and those of us committed to this class will figure out how to re-max that damage as much as possiblewill the solo ability of the ranger get better/worse? This one scares me a bit...I fortunately have a great guild and rarely solo...but I feel for you rangers that solo a lot, with stuns not being a sure thing now good luck...but again, we'll adapt and survivewhat do you think about the ranger now? do you still like it, or are you thinking of reroll to another class? Ranger for ever for meafter update 20 goes live, which other class can you compare the dps of the ranger with? No one will know until it goes live, SOE in the past has a habit of putting things on test and making tweaks with them the night before they roll out and not telling anyone and which other class can you compare the solo ability to the ranger with? Again it's kind of a wait and see thing if you ask me, give it a few weeks after it rolls outThats all i think because i really like how the ranger is, the only thing stopping me for playing as a ranger is that i'am afraid that the ranger will not be able to solo, do dmg/dps in the future...If you are afraid of the solo ability, I can see that...if you are afraid of the dmg/dps I say just wait and keep reading the forums. You will probably have to wade through post upon post of whining and complaining(some justified) but there is a good group of people here who will post what they can to help everyone out. I don't think we are going to be completely useless, but again these are all just the opionions of one ranger.
Good luck mate and chin up, we'll figure this out and I don't think it's going to be as bad as some people are making it out to be. At the very least we won't be spending nearly as much in poison costs! hehe

I'm in the solo boat not cause I have to, but because I like seeing what I can accomplish before I have to go get help. I'm not into the idea of having to go get help for over 50% of my quests that does not appeal to me. Raid DPS? Well if I have the ability to compete sure I'm all for competition. However that's if I'm not required to get all fabled and mastered out just to compete with an above average equipped Mage, Scout, or Fighter. Right now I do not see a good impression. I will wait for tomorrow take my character to PoF and fight mobs I fought for 5 levels worth of XP and questing. From there I'll make a decision whether the game is still fun for me. SMILEY

Falcon

60 Ranger

Kithicor

Message Edited by leafnin on 02-20-200607:21 PM

ToxicMan · 04-23-2006, 08:43 PM

Back here again, and i wonder what you think of the ranger class now? what have happend to the class over the past months? any good/bad news? and what will the future bring for the ranger?

Balerius · 04-24-2006, 02:22 AM

ToxicMan wrote:
Back here again, and i wonder what you think of the ranger class now? what have happend to the class over the past months? any good/bad news? and what will the future bring for the ranger?

There are at least 4 or 5 posts on just the first two pages of this forum that discuss this question in some detail.

02-18-2006, 07:59 PM	#1
ToxicMan Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 101	I need to get something answered again, asked some question some days back, and now i'am here again So after the latest update 19 and soon to come update 20:will the dmg of the ranger get really low?will the solo ability of the ranger get better/worse?what do you think about the ranger now? do you still like it, or are you thinking of reroll to another class?after update 20 goes live, which other class can you compare the dps of the ranger with?and which other class can you compare the solo ability to the ranger with?Thats all i think because i really like how the ranger is, the only thing stopping me for playing as a ranger is that i'am afraid that the ranger will not be able to solo, do dmg/dps in the future...

02-18-2006, 09:24 PM	#2
Llaere General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 9	ToxicMan wrote:I need to get something answered again, asked some question some days back, and now i'am here again So after the latest update 19 and soon to come update 20:will the dmg of the ranger get really low? Maybe at first, but give it a few weeks and those of us committed to this class will figure out how to re-max that damage as much as possiblewill the solo ability of the ranger get better/worse? This one scares me a bit...I fortunately have a great guild and rarely solo...but I feel for you rangers that solo a lot, with stuns not being a sure thing now good luck...but again, we'll adapt and survivewhat do you think about the ranger now? do you still like it, or are you thinking of reroll to another class? Ranger for ever for meafter update 20 goes live, which other class can you compare the dps of the ranger with? No one will know until it goes live, SOE in the past has a habit of putting things on test and making tweaks with them the night before they roll out and not telling anyone and which other class can you compare the solo ability to the ranger with? Again it's kind of a wait and see thing if you ask me, give it a few weeks after it rolls outThats all i think because i really like how the ranger is, the only thing stopping me for playing as a ranger is that i'am afraid that the ranger will not be able to solo, do dmg/dps in the future...If you are afraid of the solo ability, I can see that...if you are afraid of the dmg/dps I say just wait and keep reading the forums. You will probably have to wade through post upon post of whining and complaining(some justified) but there is a good group of people here who will post what they can to help everyone out. I don't think we are going to be completely useless, but again these are all just the opionions of one ranger. Good luck mate and chin up, we'll figure this out and I don't think it's going to be as bad as some people are making it out to be. At the very least we won't be spending nearly as much in poison costs! hehe

02-19-2006, 02:35 PM	#4
ToxicMan Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 101	Anyone else have something to say? I don't mind some more replys =)

02-20-2006, 12:54 AM	#5
Zholain Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 641	I'd say that Llaereth has a pretty good outlook, and I probably share his opinion. In the past (pre LU13), and probably going back as far as last January or February, there were a select few rangers who really excelled at making the most of the capabilities that the ranger had. Despite the shortcomings of the class, these rangers figured out a way to still make themselves useful in raids, wanted in groups, and effective solo'ers. They shared their knowledge, and many of us learned from their advice. I expect we will see something similar after LU20.Don't get me wrong. I'm truly horrified at the reports I'm seeing from beta. It is my opinion (and honestly just that, so it means nothing really) that SOE did not put a lot of thought into improving our DPS in LU13. I think someone just came up with the idea of making us proc machines and they just rolled with it. I never was really a fan of so much of our damage coming from procs. The majority of DPS should come from player ability. Not from a random number generator. Regardless, I think they now realize that they gave us too many procs and are on a path to correct that. However, it seems that they have taken away SO many procs without fixing the base damage of other things that we may be stuck down in a mediocre DPS tier instead of t1 where we belong. And there's no telling how long that will last. Anyway, that is my opinion.I am fortunate that I am in a guild that focuses on what the player is willing to contribute rather than the type of character they bring to the raid, so I probably don't have to be concerned about being denied access to our guild activities. But I'm sure that won't be the case for the more hard-core guilds, and even some of the not-so-hard-core guilds. You either love the class or you don't. Those of us who love it will continue to play our rangers. Message Edited by Zholain on 02-19-200602:55 PM __________________

02-21-2006, 06:30 AM	#7
Mithremakor Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lincoln, Montana Posts: 35	So, any idea what are the buffs in the expansion that are supposed to make up for our proc nerfs? __________________ The wind in my hair, Teir'Dal in my sights; life is good! 32 Ranger - Lucan D'lere What can I say? Rangers rule!

02-18-2006, 09:54 PM	#3
ToxicMan Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 101	Thanks a lot for that reply, thats what i want to see =)Anyway, yea you have right, the problem is that i read a lot of postes and say 70% of those are like the ones that whine or say that we are getting nerfed and stuff, and not easy to find a post where you can read some very good opinions about a class, so sometimes it really get hard to choose a class for me.I have the last weeks played as a monk and he has a good solo ability, but i want to check other classes to so i don't miss anything, thats why i'am back here asking again, because ranger may be the next class i want to test.

02-20-2006, 01:49 AM	#6
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	My opinion.. Yes LU20 will go live as it is, because they are fixing a "bug", in their minds. To understand the problem, basically with procs doing all this damage, and the new expansion offering enchancements to them, Rangers became too powerful for people who knew how to maximize the system as it is. I have no problem with us being toned down a bit, but SOE is taking the 5000 pound sledgehammer to the class instead of fixing us. If you have analyzed your class and play properly, you should be doing about 55-60% of your damage off of procs. This means if you are doing 800 dps, more than 400 of it comes from poison, stances, your bow imbue, etc. Let's say it's 450 dps from your procs. With the new changes, according to my analysis and what others have posted, I expect that number to drop by about 90% or more. Let's say that you use a high DOT poison instead of initial DD poison, because you know how to play. I still expect your dps to be below 400. According to Rangers on beta, this is about where it is. I honestly don't believe there is much to adjust. You can only cast CAs and do autoattacks for damage, so what do you do? We already cast CAs as fast as possible. Sure we will optimize STR first for maximum CA and Auto damage, and then INT for DOT poison and haste for speed, but it won't replace most of our dps. Ranger dps will be very bad for a while. Yes, it's not horrible compared to say any random class, but it will be bad compared to preds/sorcerors/summoners. We won't be anywhere near warlocks, wizzies, conjurors and necros, and I expect assassins to be less impacted than we are so they will still be okay. OK so we can probably do the same dps as a swashie or a brigand, but is any predator going to be okay with that? We don't do anything but damage, whereas they can do so much more. To answer your question on solo ability, it's going to be awful. First, you have to understand that Rangers are inherently "bad" at soloing. The reason is almost all of our damage has to be cast at range. If they are on top of us, we can do almost nothing, just some very sad melee CAs. This problem is masked by the fact that we can do so much damage in a quick burst, they are often dead or near-dead by the time they close with us. If they do close with us, we have either a root we have cast beforehand, or we can stun them once per X seconds. Generally speaking, right now most solo mobs don't stand a chance because we can do so much damage before they get close. The problem is, when you remove more than half of our big hit damage, they will be getting to us with 80-90% health instead of 20%, and after you stun and range them quickly they will still be at 70% or more likely. At that point, you have nothing. Before LU13, Rangers could cast their CAs on the run, so if you could keep the mob slowed and at range you could just run them along while you pepper them (this is known as kiting). This is not an option now, so I think we are in deep doodoo in terms of soloing. Also, reports from beta are that the root spell (from 52) is not reliable at all anymore. It breaks very easily. (It breaks fairly easily now, but because our burst dps is so high it is not a problem) I think SOE will eventually fix these problems, don't get me wrong, but it could be months before they do. What they have done to other classes is not encouraging for a rapid resolution to issues we bring up. The ranger community is fairly mature, so I think intelligent analysis and proposed solutions will help, but I think this change is a poor one that does not need to be made. There are many classes they have broken (guardians for example) which have never been fixed. SOE doesn't even understand why it's a problem. SOE might just look at our damage CAs and say, "We don't see a problem here". What do you do then? It is what they have said to Guardians. No, I don't play a guardian, but I understand why they're upset. So in summary... hold onto your pants, we're going for a ride!

02-21-2006, 07:14 AM	#8
klepp Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 236	none, we suck now.. are solo ability is totally smoked, our dps is smoked, our utility stays the same (nill) this is unreal.. lol soe is fuuuunny

02-21-2006, 08:20 AM	#9
leafnin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 170	Llaereth wrote: ToxicMan wrote:I need to get something answered again, asked some question some days back, and now I'm here again So after the latest update 19 and soon to come update 20:will the dmg of the ranger get really low? Maybe at first, but give it a few weeks and those of us committed to this class will figure out how to re-max that damage as much as possiblewill the solo ability of the ranger get better/worse? This one scares me a bit...I fortunately have a great guild and rarely solo...but I feel for you rangers that solo a lot, with stuns not being a sure thing now good luck...but again, we'll adapt and survivewhat do you think about the ranger now? do you still like it, or are you thinking of reroll to another class? Ranger for ever for meafter update 20 goes live, which other class can you compare the dps of the ranger with? No one will know until it goes live, SOE in the past has a habit of putting things on test and making tweaks with them the night before they roll out and not telling anyone and which other class can you compare the solo ability to the ranger with? Again it's kind of a wait and see thing if you ask me, give it a few weeks after it rolls outThats all i think because i really like how the ranger is, the only thing stopping me for playing as a ranger is that i'am afraid that the ranger will not be able to solo, do dmg/dps in the future...If you are afraid of the solo ability, I can see that...if you are afraid of the dmg/dps I say just wait and keep reading the forums. You will probably have to wade through post upon post of whining and complaining(some justified) but there is a good group of people here who will post what they can to help everyone out. I don't think we are going to be completely useless, but again these are all just the opionions of one ranger. Good luck mate and chin up, we'll figure this out and I don't think it's going to be as bad as some people are making it out to be. At the very least we won't be spending nearly as much in poison costs! hehe I'm in the solo boat not cause I have to, but because I like seeing what I can accomplish before I have to go get help. I'm not into the idea of having to go get help for over 50% of my quests that does not appeal to me. Raid DPS? Well if I have the ability to compete sure I'm all for competition. However that's if I'm not required to get all fabled and mastered out just to compete with an above average equipped Mage, Scout, or Fighter. Right now I do not see a good impression. I will wait for tomorrow take my character to PoF and fight mobs I fought for 5 levels worth of XP and questing. From there I'll make a decision whether the game is still fun for me. Falcon 60 Ranger Kithicor Message Edited by leafnin on 02-20-200607:21 PM

04-23-2006, 08:43 PM	#10
ToxicMan Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 101	Back here again, and i wonder what you think of the ranger class now? what have happend to the class over the past months? any good/bad news? and what will the future bring for the ranger?

04-24-2006, 02:22 AM	#11
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	ToxicMan wrote: Back here again, and i wonder what you think of the ranger class now? what have happend to the class over the past months? any good/bad news? and what will the future bring for the ranger? There are at least 4 or 5 posts on just the first two pages of this forum that discuss this question in some detail.