Why is there no more defensive ability in the STA line? (Developers, please read.)

[jerryro]

The Stamina AA line seems to be remarkably short on defensive capabilities.The STR line has Blackguard's luck, which gives a defense bonus.  (Actually, it appears that this AA could and perhaps should be swapped out with Opportunistic Cover in the STA line, which increases DPS, which seems more strength-related.)The WIS line has Freehand Reversal which gives not just an increase in defense, but actually damage as well (with riposte).  Also, Coule is in the WIS line, which increases defense.The STA line, however, has the following abilities:Swear: An All-Encounter taunt with no other features (while a roundshield is equipped).Conditioning: A straight HP% increase.  I think everyone would acknowledge that for every 1%, you would rather have +1% avoidance / riposte than +1% HP, since dodging an attack altogether is better than taking it.Opportunistic Cover: A DPS increase (while a roundshield is equipped).None of these abilities seem anywhere near as good as the defensive capabilities in either the WIS or STR lines.Formation, the final STA AA, is semi-defensive.  It gives about +3% avoidance, +5% mitigation, +5% health, and taunts an enemy 50% of the time when hit.  However, even this last ability isn't as good as just 4 or 5 ranks in any of the STR or WIS lines.I don't think the WIS and STR lines should be nerfed at all.  They are perfect just the way they are, I think.However, Developers, would it not be a good idea to put a very small defensive bonus in the STA line abilities leading up to the last one?  Like +0.25% to avoidance or +0.25% HP for every rank in each of the STA abilities?It just seems to make more sense, because the STA line seems to be particularly suited to being defensive, but greater defensive ability AND more DPS can be gained in bothe the WIS and STR lines. 

Thank you for your time.Sincerely,Zhiev

[Jeffmaster]

its the roundshield thats gives you more defense and higher avoidance....that line was made to help tanking skills which it does very well IMO. Combined with the str line its a very good option for solo/pvp.

[Jeffmaster]

AND.....to reach 60% avoidance is easy...we couldn't get more than that since we wear chain...brawlers can go up to 80% but wear leather....

[Wildfury77]

The stamina line is awesome defensively......the roundshield boosts your avoidance and resists. e.g. Archaic roundshield, Shield of the White Dragon. the stamina line also ramps up your HPs to paladin/SK level(ish) and lets you hold agro better. That and a 56% DPS boost to offset loss of DPS. The final skills proc is one of the best defensive procs in the game!!

Combine all the above with the strength line and tanking gear and at lvl 70/50AA you can tank HOF including Frankie. I really don't think it would be fair to "fighter" tanks to make Roguetanks even tougher!!! As a DPS/Tank Hybrid we already provoke jealous/negative responses from the brawler forums

There are not many classes that can solo PPalace (including the cyclops) without breaking sweat.......

[Illyakuran]

It seems to me that the stamina line is about providing a rogue with aoe taunts and offsetting the dps lost by using a shield while providing a minimal increase in health. Defense can than be further increased by putting points into another AA line.

 

[PaganSaint]

Depends upon how many AA points you have.At 50 you are a tanking beast.Strength: 4/4/8Stamina: 4/8/5/8/8This nets you:

• +25 to defense
• Encounter taunt for 825-1008
• +50% DPS mod
• +5% Health
• +325 Miti
• Reactive Taunt 50% chance for 244
• +75 Stamina
• +16 Strength
• Torporous Strike attack if using a sword, increases recast and recovery times I think it was changed to.
• 8% or so avoidance you get for a shield. (dependent upon shield protection/stats)

In my opinion those boosts combined with the buffs and hate enhancing attack and AoE damage makes a Swash one of the better tanks available. For a non raid, a Swash can tank anything rather easily.

Message Edited by PaganSaint on 10-04-2006 05:06 PM

[Jeffmaster]

Agreed.

I tanked the named in Majdul yesterday for the carpet quest with the ice comet..the first time he one shotted me and I was with a defiler...then I tried with a 2nd brig and a paly...I tanked because I had better stats than the Paly. The paly didn't even heal me..we kept interrupting him and stunning him and we got him..I was 57 the other brig was 59(but i had better stats) and the paly 57.

then we went with a full group with one healer to get the last guy(djinn) killed him as well....I love the Sta line. Right now I have only 13 AAs all in sta line 1-4-4-4..Imagine with the defense bonus on STR line.

[Rokjin]

Take a look at my analysis.. each line has a template that it follows, ie: utility CA, survivability increase, damage increase, utility passive or CA

Which answers why WIS and STR have defensive bonuses and STA has an offensive bonus. There's more detail to that but that's a rough picture.

As for Conditioning being inferior.. As of right now out of STR, WIS and STA defensive mid-line abilities, STR's is the weakest due to Defense capping out the easiest at the moment and giving the least survivability per point. WIS and STA are tied, with WIS slightly winning due to extra damage done.

However, when tanking, one of the biggest features of a tank are his hitpoints. The tank has to be able to take the big burst damage. If his hitpoints are too low, it doesn't matter how efficiently he takes damage, he'll be dead.

So for overall survivability, WIS defense bonus wins out. However for tanking content, STA defense bonus wins out.

Also, Formation, point per point for survivability is far away better then WIS and STR defensive options.

STR and WIS defense bonuses both for 8 points give you 8% more 'survivability' in the form of avoidance.

STA ultimate for 8 points gives you 3% avoidance, 5% mit and 5% health.. that's a straight 8% survivability AND another 5% health on top of that. Extending the time you live without healing by 13% compared to 8% of the other lines.

STA is fine the way it is, especially with the 8% health bonus and another 5% health bonus from Formation multiplying together.

IE: You have 5000 HP. 8% more Formation gives you 5400, another 5% from formation gives you 5670. Also any buffs you get from healers also multiply, letting buffed Swashies get hitpoints that are on par with buffed Berserkers/Guardians. Any tank would kill for % health boosts due to them multipling through all the buffs..

[jerryro]

A quick response to each replyer so far:Jeffmaster: You are saying, "The roundshield IS the defense."  So...this sounds like my point still exists, the AA line itself has comparatively little in the way of defensive ability.  "Tanking," sure, but those taunts are useless solo.Wildfury77: You are saying, "The roundshield IS the defense."  Read above.  Also...SK / Pally have MUCH more than 20% higher HP than us.  Extra HP is always nice, but...again, not DEFENSIVE.  DPS boost for a 1h, sure...but again, not DEFENSIVE.  And that's my point here.Illyakuran : You are sort of making my point.  The STA line isn't about providing a defensive bonus.  But isn't that what you would expect from the --stamina-- line? This is my point, and I think it should be (slightly) boosted in that area.PaganSaint: You are saying, "You can take the STR and STA lines both, and be a great tank."  Sure, I agree.  But my point is that the STA line alone is short, in and of itself alone, of defensive boosts.Rokjin: My original post said Formation was awesome. I think it's spiffy.  What I think is inferior is the STA line having a DPS boost, and the STR line having a defense boost.  Isn't that backwards? Example:  If I said "Bob is stronger than Ted," wouldn't you expect (in-game) Bob to do more DPS than Ted?  I should hope so.  This seems like two skills got swapped.Again, I reitterate my idea:The STA line is primarily defensive.  Taunting is HUGELY important for a tank...but if you do enough DPS, who needs a taunt?  WIzards have a taunt, it's called "Ice Comet."  If a swashie takes the STR and WIS lines, he seems to get an INCREDIBLE defensive boost, even in an offensive stance, that allows him to do massive damage that substitutes for the taunting bonuses that Swear and Formation provide. I think that is a viable (and pretty cool) strategy, and is fine. What I think should be changed is for Swear, Conditioning, and / or Opportunistic Cover to be given SOME kind of TINY defensive bonus, to make it on par with either the STR or WIS lines for DEF bonuses.Developers, I hope you do read this and respond, even if your response is very short.Sincerely,Zhiev

[Wildfury77]

Oh dear.....ok listen up Jerry I'm 70 Swashtank my build is str 4/5/8/8 sta 4/4/8/8I use Archaic RoundshieldMy gear is Claymore/bought DT/nizara kind of level. Not one single weak item but certainly not in maxed out fabled.I have 23 master I'sOn Labs raids 1 DPS between 800 (jousting) and 1200 DPSI finish 1st to 4th in guild DPS (1st or 2nd mainly) beating wisdom line brigands and assassins.As for tanking I can hit 65% avoidance easily, 70% with the right group, My HPs can hit 10k with 2 healers, my mitigation is 4500+. I can taunt, My AoE and significant DPS mean i can hold agro very well.THERE IS NO WAY you can tell me that the stamina line ability to offset using a decent roundshield, taunts and extra HPs need anymore of a boost. I can take down Frankie in HoF in a one healer group and solo ALL of PP. I'm not even in maxed out gear. And I'm not atypical of the other swashtanks I know. BTW my Defence is maxed out in BOTH stances........I'm more frightened of a NERF than being insane enough to ask for "extra defense" - honestly man, I'm deadly serious.