Pirates and swashbucklers and the ongoing arguement

Vryken · 08-11-2006, 05:44 PM

Pirate:

Piracy is robbery committed at sea, or sometimes on the shore, by an agent without a commission from a sovereign nation. One who commits piracy by engaging in robbery, pillaging, or plundering at sea is known as a pirate. Seaborne piracy against transport vessels remains a significant issue (with estimated worldwide losses of US$13 to $16 billion per year[1]), particularly in the waters between the Pacific and Indian Oceans, off the Somali coast, and in the Strait of Malacca and Singapore, which are used by over 50,000 commercial ships a year. A recent surge in piracy off the Somali coast spurred a multi-national effort led by the United States to patrol the waters near the Horn of Africa to combat piracy. While boats off the coasts of South America and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the advent of the United States Coast Guard has nearly eradicated piracy in American waters and the Caribbean Sea. The Jolly Roger is the traditional flag of European and American pirates

Swashbuckler:

Swashbuckler is a term that came about in the 16th century and was applied to rough, noisy and boastful swordsmen. It came about due to the popularity of the fighting style using a side-sword with a buckler in the off-hand, which was filled with much "swashing and making a noise on the buckler"[citation needed].

Today the term "swashbuckler" is used to denote a particular type of character and is usually applied to fictional characters. A swashbuckler will display a strong sense of justice, an aptitude for and enjoyment of fighting, and calmness, class, and wit even during combat. The archetypical swashbuckler is a handsome young rapier-wielding European man from the 16th to the 18th century, though as "swashbuckler" is a character type, it is not confined to time or place. The showiness of this type of swashbuckler is particularly appropriate as regards stage fighting, which has more in common with the art of fencing, in which the fighting is a stylized form originally used to teach the principles of actual dueling, while real sword fighting aims at bodily harm.

Swashbucklers have made appearances in works of literature such as The Three Musketeers, Ivanhoe and Scaramouche. Even today, the romantic appeal of the swashbuckler still endures. Contemporary movies that feature swashbuckling include The Count of Monte Cristo, Pirates Of The Caribbean, The Mask of Zorro, and Lives No Longer Ours.

NOW... this is pulled from wikipedia so i do not say it is 100% true...i have read of few books on piracy and found a few interesting facts out but that is not the point.

TO ME(as an opinion) a pirate can in fact be a swashbuckler since a swashbuckler is a persona and fighting style where as PIRACY is a choice of profession...almost like a hobby. thats just what it is to me not be the same to you but let me tell you i like to plunder, pillage, and drink myself into a stupor...although i am a swashbuckler. A swashbuckler to me seems no more than a fighting style not a way of life...minus the boastful part thats one thing pirates and swashbucklers have in common. In closing i think it is completely possible for a swashbuckler to be a pirate....but hey i could be wrong.

the flu · 08-11-2006, 06:02 PM

The problem in truth, is that it is automatically assumed that if you are a swashbuckler you are a pirate. Check the title of the sticky about the master 2 choices- the author starts it with ARRRRRGH! a very pirate type phrase. Additionallly, swashbucklers are generally good at heart (which is why they start in qeynos). The law is all well and good until it becomes inconvienient, at which point it should be cast aside for the greater good. Pirates are either lawless (true pirates, though there is usually order on a ship imposed at the captains whim ) or lawful (privateers hired by a government), and are generally looking out for number one. To use the d&d alignment system, a (norathian) swashbuckler would likely fall under good, chaotic good, or perhpas true neutral. A pirate would likely fall under lawful neutral, lawful evil, chaotic neutral or chaotic evil- the focus is on the accumulation of wealth, though privateers may have a good alignment depending on the alignment of their nation.Those are of course, rough guidlines and there will be exceptions.Then of course, there is this (work warning- you tube, sound). Can you tell me you want to be a pirate after seeing that (for added impact, notice the thick horizantal stripes on the pirates. Every swashy knows that you wear thin vertical stripes for a slimming effect!)

Red Forest · 08-11-2006, 06:43 PM

Pirate, swashbuckler, and the like (buccaneer, corsair, etc) are occasionally discussed concerning their "territories". Unfortunately, they are rarely if at all defined in the fantasy realm. In the RL setting, it's a different case. Each has a period of time in which they were used to describe an individual or fighting style. I won't bother going through them all, but if you look through various sources including Wikipedia, I'm sure you'll find some connections throughout history. A bit interesting if you do read up on it as you've done.

In the fantasy realm, however, they more or less are all interconnected. Like you said, it's a common misconception that swashbucklers are often referred to as pirates (I blame Hollywood for that. :smileytongue: ). Corsair and buccaneer, likewise, lead to the thought of a pirate by most. Though, pirates are by no means a good sort of breed hence why they're called pirates in the first place. Still, it's one of those things that are left up to the individual if they do play one. There are no boundaries, as it were.

A pirate having the attributes of a swashbuckler... I'd say sure. A swashbuckler with the means of a pirate... Why not. It's fantasy afterall. Regardless, don't let my own swashbuckler catch you calling him a pirate. :smileyvery-happy:

Cheers!

Shiverr · 08-11-2006, 07:04 PM

Yay, the once a month post debating what a swashbuckler is. Or isn't.

Its whatever you want it to be and how you play. :smileyindifferent:

Iseabeil · 08-11-2006, 07:11 PM

The way I see it, a good pirate (skipping reality, as I doubt there really was any) is a swashbuckler, but a swashbuckler isnt necessarily a pirate. Kinda like how a swashie ingame is a rogue but a rogue doesnt havent to be a swashie.

My swash is a pirate, take Elaine (in rodent form) from Monkey Island and add a pint Guybrush and you have the character style Im aiming for in my character. However, this is just how I picture my swash, and I try avoid seeing other swashies as pirateish unless they themselves have that persona in mind for their character. Someone with a swashie based on the three musketeer or any other ideal is just as 'correctly' portraid as all others to me, as long as they are based around what Id see as swashie character trait; flamboyant, wit, charming etc

As long as you can kill a mob and keep your sleeves as clean as if straight from the drycleaner whilst all other are soaked in blood and dirt, you have a smirk ready in the most dangerous situations and the oposite gender swoons at your attention, you are a swashbuckler to me. *grins* Its all about the attitiude.

Vryken · 08-11-2006, 07:21 PM

I simply put this up to get peoples opinion and i appreciate the ones that did. The others who post sarcasm need not reply thanks

Message Edited by Vryken on 08-11-2006 08:22 AM

Malkosha · 08-11-2006, 07:30 PM

Lets see ...

Your not really attacking anyone ship to ship so the classic Pirate thing is in question.

You don't rob from the rich and give to the poor so the Robin Hood thing is out.

Do they even have snuff in this game? The Swashbuckler reference is out SMILEY

Errol Flynn had stealth? Backstab?

Rogue would be the proper name I would think and that would cover everything. I guess they ran out of sub-class names and had to go with what they had. The truth may be that the char class was just poory named for what it does and its up to the user to live with it or not.

Vryken · 08-11-2006, 07:31 PM

I like that description...rogue is a sort of universal term

Krontak · 08-11-2006, 07:47 PM

I'd consider myself a buccaneer indeed, a great swordsman, (well axeman in my case 'cause its the best weapon i got atm but that's another issue!). With great names in our agi line, walk the plank, avaste ye mate who can deny our calling to the seas! I would love for all our class specific hats to call a pet Parrot to our shoulder, now that would be dope. Would be great if it could be used further as a scout pet to scout ahead without being detected, or am I hoping for too much?

Carna · 08-11-2006, 08:54 PM

Piracy is brigandry at sea.One could mount a reasonable argument for a privateer being a Swashbuckler, but piracy is brigandry. It involves murdering a maiming large numbers of people to steal their property and remove their livelihoods.

Message Edited by Carnagh on 08-11-2006 09:57 AM

Gary · 08-16-2006, 05:59 AM

brigands are pirates.... swashbucklers are privateers.

Gary · 08-16-2006, 06:07 AM

A real life swashbuckler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Pieterszoon_Hein

Cebkix · 08-16-2006, 09:06 PM

Funny thing is, he was a privateer, and privateers were generally just pirates that were hired by a nation to attack and loot ships. In his case, Spanish Treasure galleons. They even say he would be considered a pirate in the lingo of today, but not by his Dutch contrymen when he was bringing home all the booty.

Jur · 08-16-2006, 10:25 PM

Well if you look at EQ2's description, there is no mention of Pirates or seafaring at all. Swashbucklers are just flamboyant rogues. Dashing, witty, and flirtatious. If they choose to be a pirate, then who's to say they can't, but by class they are no more pirates than a Guardian, or a Wizard is.

http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionSwashbuckler

Message Edited by Jurav on 08-16-2006 02:27 PM

Wildfury77 · 08-17-2006, 03:18 AM

GETTING ANGRY!The clue is in the name.......SwashBucklerFlamboyment swordsman that uses a shield in their offhand.....Check out Wikipedia. Stamina line swashies are the truest Swashies.....I have no problem with duel-wield/single handed dudes SMILEY

but definition is definition. Play the toon the way you want!!

Shiverr · 08-17-2006, 10:25 PM

Rodric1 · 08-18-2006, 09:35 AM

If i fought at sea in a ship and had a ship as a pad, maybe id consider myself a Pirate, alas, these legs of mine are shore bound the majority of my time.....Oh and my parrot flew away a long time ago....always remember to feed it!!

Sabatini · 08-18-2006, 10:20 AM

Wildfury77 wrote:
GETTING ANGRY!
The clue is in the name.......SwashBuckler
Flamboyment swordsman that uses a shield in their offhand.....Check out Wikipedia.
Stamina line swashies are the truest Swashies.....I have no problem with duel-wield/single handed dudes but definition is definition. Play the toon the way you want!!

Except that stamina line swashies use Round shields not bucklers....:smileytongue:

Cocytus · 08-23-2006, 03:36 PM

My thoughts are in line with Miepsie's. I see it this way - REAL pirates are swashbucklers, but swashbucklers aren't always pirates.

Leithe, however, is a pirate, and therefore > all other swashes who aren't pirates, despite anything. SMILEY

kyth · 08-23-2006, 05:52 PM

i dont want to be a pirate....And no one can make me be on!!

08-11-2006, 05:44 PM	#1
Vryken Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3	Pirate: Piracy is robbery committed at sea, or sometimes on the shore, by an agent without a commission from a sovereign nation. One who commits piracy by engaging in robbery, pillaging, or plundering at sea is known as a pirate. Seaborne piracy against transport vessels remains a significant issue (with estimated worldwide losses of US$13 to $16 billion per year[1]), particularly in the waters between the Pacific and Indian Oceans, off the Somali coast, and in the Strait of Malacca and Singapore, which are used by over 50,000 commercial ships a year. A recent surge in piracy off the Somali coast spurred a multi-national effort led by the United States to patrol the waters near the Horn of Africa to combat piracy. While boats off the coasts of South America and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the advent of the United States Coast Guard has nearly eradicated piracy in American waters and the Caribbean Sea. The Jolly Roger is the traditional flag of European and American pirates Swashbuckler: Swashbuckler is a term that came about in the 16th century and was applied to rough, noisy and boastful swordsmen. It came about due to the popularity of the fighting style using a side-sword with a buckler in the off-hand, which was filled with much "swashing and making a noise on the buckler"[citation needed]. Today the term "swashbuckler" is used to denote a particular type of character and is usually applied to fictional characters. A swashbuckler will display a strong sense of justice, an aptitude for and enjoyment of fighting, and calmness, class, and wit even during combat. The archetypical swashbuckler is a handsome young rapier-wielding European man from the 16th to the 18th century, though as "swashbuckler" is a character type, it is not confined to time or place. The showiness of this type of swashbuckler is particularly appropriate as regards stage fighting, which has more in common with the art of fencing, in which the fighting is a stylized form originally used to teach the principles of actual dueling, while real sword fighting aims at bodily harm. Swashbucklers have made appearances in works of literature such as The Three Musketeers, Ivanhoe and Scaramouche. Even today, the romantic appeal of the swashbuckler still endures. Contemporary movies that feature swashbuckling include The Count of Monte Cristo, Pirates Of The Caribbean, The Mask of Zorro, and Lives No Longer Ours. NOW... this is pulled from wikipedia so i do not say it is 100% true...i have read of few books on piracy and found a few interesting facts out but that is not the point. TO ME(as an opinion) a pirate can in fact be a swashbuckler since a swashbuckler is a persona and fighting style where as PIRACY is a choice of profession...almost like a hobby. thats just what it is to me not be the same to you but let me tell you i like to plunder, pillage, and drink myself into a stupor...although i am a swashbuckler. A swashbuckler to me seems no more than a fighting style not a way of life...minus the boastful part thats one thing pirates and swashbucklers have in common. In closing i think it is completely possible for a swashbuckler to be a pirate....but hey i could be wrong. __________________

08-11-2006, 06:02 PM	#2
the flu General Join Date: May 2005 Location: 4 Bayle Court, Kithicor Posts: 326	The problem in truth, is that it is automatically assumed that if you are a swashbuckler you are a pirate. Check the title of the sticky about the master 2 choices- the author starts it with ARRRRRGH! a very pirate type phrase. Additionallly, swashbucklers are generally good at heart (which is why they start in qeynos). The law is all well and good until it becomes inconvienient, at which point it should be cast aside for the greater good. Pirates are either lawless (true pirates, though there is usually order on a ship imposed at the captains whim ) or lawful (privateers hired by a government), and are generally looking out for number one. To use the d&d alignment system, a (norathian) swashbuckler would likely fall under good, chaotic good, or perhpas true neutral. A pirate would likely fall under lawful neutral, lawful evil, chaotic neutral or chaotic evil- the focus is on the accumulation of wealth, though privateers may have a good alignment depending on the alignment of their nation.Those are of course, rough guidlines and there will be exceptions.Then of course, there is this (work warning- you tube, sound). Can you tell me you want to be a pirate after seeing that (for added impact, notice the thick horizantal stripes on the pirates. Every swashy knows that you wear thin vertical stripes for a slimming effect!) __________________

08-11-2006, 07:04 PM	#4
Shiverr Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 282	Yay, the once a month post debating what a swashbuckler is. Or isn't. Its whatever you want it to be and how you play. :smileyindifferent: __________________ Tanx and Scouts

08-11-2006, 07:11 PM	#5
Iseabeil Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 661	The way I see it, a good pirate (skipping reality, as I doubt there really was any) is a swashbuckler, but a swashbuckler isnt necessarily a pirate. Kinda like how a swashie ingame is a rogue but a rogue doesnt havent to be a swashie. My swash is a pirate, take Elaine (in rodent form) from Monkey Island and add a pint Guybrush and you have the character style Im aiming for in my character. However, this is just how I picture my swash, and I try avoid seeing other swashies as pirateish unless they themselves have that persona in mind for their character. Someone with a swashie based on the three musketeer or any other ideal is just as 'correctly' portraid as all others to me, as long as they are based around what Id see as swashie character trait; flamboyant, wit, charming etc As long as you can kill a mob and keep your sleeves as clean as if straight from the drycleaner whilst all other are soaked in blood and dirt, you have a smirk ready in the most dangerous situations and the oposite gender swoons at your attention, you are a swashbuckler to me. grins Its all about the attitiude. __________________

08-11-2006, 07:21 PM	#6
Vryken Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3	I simply put this up to get peoples opinion and i appreciate the ones that did. The others who post sarcasm need not reply thanks Message Edited by Vryken on 08-11-2006 08:22 AM __________________

08-11-2006, 06:43 PM	#3
Red Forest Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 19	Pirate, swashbuckler, and the like (buccaneer, corsair, etc) are occasionally discussed concerning their "territories". Unfortunately, they are rarely if at all defined in the fantasy realm. In the RL setting, it's a different case. Each has a period of time in which they were used to describe an individual or fighting style. I won't bother going through them all, but if you look through various sources including Wikipedia, I'm sure you'll find some connections throughout history. A bit interesting if you do read up on it as you've done. In the fantasy realm, however, they more or less are all interconnected. Like you said, it's a common misconception that swashbucklers are often referred to as pirates (I blame Hollywood for that. :smileytongue: ). Corsair and buccaneer, likewise, lead to the thought of a pirate by most. Though, pirates are by no means a good sort of breed hence why they're called pirates in the first place. Still, it's one of those things that are left up to the individual if they do play one. There are no boundaries, as it were. A pirate having the attributes of a swashbuckler... I'd say sure. A swashbuckler with the means of a pirate... Why not. It's fantasy afterall. Regardless, don't let my own swashbuckler catch you calling him a pirate. :smileyvery-happy: Cheers!

08-11-2006, 07:30 PM	#7
Malkosha Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 69	Lets see ... Your not really attacking anyone ship to ship so the classic Pirate thing is in question. You don't rob from the rich and give to the poor so the Robin Hood thing is out. Do they even have snuff in this game? The Swashbuckler reference is out Errol Flynn had stealth? Backstab? Rogue would be the proper name I would think and that would cover everything. I guess they ran out of sub-class names and had to go with what they had. The truth may be that the char class was just poory named for what it does and its up to the user to live with it or not.

08-11-2006, 07:31 PM	#8
Vryken Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3	I like that description...rogue is a sort of universal term __________________

08-11-2006, 07:47 PM	#9
Krontak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 438	I'd consider myself a buccaneer indeed, a great swordsman, (well axeman in my case 'cause its the best weapon i got atm but that's another issue!). With great names in our agi line, walk the plank, avaste ye mate who can deny our calling to the seas! I would love for all our class specific hats to call a pet Parrot to our shoulder, now that would be dope. Would be great if it could be used further as a scout pet to scout ahead without being detected, or am I hoping for too much? __________________

08-11-2006, 08:54 PM	#10
Carna Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 515	Piracy is brigandry at sea.One could mount a reasonable argument for a privateer being a Swashbuckler, but piracy is brigandry. It involves murdering a maiming large numbers of people to steal their property and remove their livelihoods. Message Edited by Carnagh on 08-11-2006 09:57 AM

08-16-2006, 05:59 AM	#11
Gary Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3	brigands are pirates.... swashbucklers are privateers.

08-16-2006, 06:07 AM	#12
Gary Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3	A real life swashbuckler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Pieterszoon_Hein

08-16-2006, 09:06 PM	#13
Cebkix Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: The hottest place on earth. Posts: 30	Funny thing is, he was a privateer, and privateers were generally just pirates that were hired by a nation to attack and loot ships. In his case, Spanish Treasure galleons. They even say he would be considered a pirate in the lingo of today, but not by his Dutch contrymen when he was bringing home all the booty.

08-16-2006, 10:25 PM	#14
Jur Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1	Well if you look at EQ2's description, there is no mention of Pirates or seafaring at all. Swashbucklers are just flamboyant rogues. Dashing, witty, and flirtatious. If they choose to be a pirate, then who's to say they can't, but by class they are no more pirates than a Guardian, or a Wizard is. http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#professionSwashbuckler Message Edited by Jurav on 08-16-2006 02:27 PM

08-17-2006, 03:18 AM	#15
Wildfury77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 683	GETTING ANGRY!The clue is in the name.......SwashBucklerFlamboyment swordsman that uses a shield in their offhand.....Check out Wikipedia. Stamina line swashies are the truest Swashies.....I have no problem with duel-wield/single handed dudes but definition is definition. Play the toon the way you want!!

08-17-2006, 10:25 PM	#16
Shiverr Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 282	__________________ Tanx and Scouts

08-18-2006, 09:35 AM	#17
Rodric1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	If i fought at sea in a ship and had a ship as a pad, maybe id consider myself a Pirate, alas, these legs of mine are shore bound the majority of my time.....Oh and my parrot flew away a long time ago....always remember to feed it!!

08-18-2006, 10:20 AM	#18
Sabatini Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 172	Wildfury77 wrote: GETTING ANGRY! The clue is in the name.......SwashBuckler Flamboyment swordsman that uses a shield in their offhand.....Check out Wikipedia. Stamina line swashies are the truest Swashies.....I have no problem with duel-wield/single handed dudes but definition is definition. Play the toon the way you want!! Except that stamina line swashies use Round shields not bucklers....:smileytongue:

08-23-2006, 03:36 PM	#19
Cocytus Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,908	My thoughts are in line with Miepsie's. I see it this way - REAL pirates are swashbucklers, but swashbucklers aren't always pirates. Leithe, however, is a pirate, and therefore > all other swashes who aren't pirates, despite anything.

08-23-2006, 05:52 PM	#20
kyth General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 493	i dont want to be a pirate....And no one can make me be on!! __________________