Supplicant's Prayer - a new look

Apathyloves · 12-12-2004, 09:28 AM

I've noticed several threads that start off on one topic, then get hijacked to an argument over whether supplican't prayer is broken or not.My new look on SP is that it is a community killer. In a room of 20 people, if just one person (and I assert that there is more than one person) is yelling at the top of their lungs in most other conversations, then the other 19 people will grow tired and weary of competing with the yelling. Ultimately, no fresh ideas, sharing of personal experiences, successes and failures can occur. Additionally, other problems that occur in the future will not get addressed.As this is a free forum and a location for self-expression, I ask that you understand that the results of anyone's actions (including myself) may not be what they intended and be aware of how your replies may land to not only the others replying, but those reading the thread as well.BakerJoe27 Templar/28 Provisioner - Nektulos

Gwynet · 12-12-2004, 09:30 AM

So, what's your solution? I'm curious, but I don't think that dropping the issue is going to get our spell fixed. I really don't think that people trying to fix one of our main spells are a community breaker at all. That's way different from people who would complain about our heals being overall too weak, our class being useless or [Removed for Content] compared to another class etc... Then, it would be a people's opinion that they would try to force on other people. That would definitely be a community breaker. People trying to fix one of our spells, and giving figures showing it's broken? Definitely not.

I will agree with one thing though - it's the first time I don't see the community of a class acting together to fix something that is broken. I don't understand it at all and I'll admit it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Message Edited by Gwynet on 12-11-2004 08:41 PM

Lifewast · 12-12-2004, 08:51 PM

Well what is this thread for ? Latest heal numbers maybe? ....heres what I got with adept3 versions of both.@lvl 26 Supplicants heals 134 per tick plus adds 70 ish ac@lvl 30 Supplicants heals 144 per tick plus adds 100ish ac@lvl 35 Supplicants heals 158 per tick plus adds 150ish acFrom lvl 25+ Bestowal heals a max of 134 per tick with no ACI think from lvl 30+ its possibly more efficient to use Supplicants over Bestowal if mana isnt a huge issue , certainly no question from lvl 35+To be honest though, its probably most efficient of all to take advantage of being able to use both untill such time, (lvl 35+) that bestowal fades totally in comparitive efficiency.By using both I mean, you cast SP , then before SP wears off you cast BOV , this allows you to use the BOV as a buffer to take effect immediately SP wears off, then recast SP whilst the BOV is in effect and so on....By doing this, you ensure a constant supply of ticks, but also never waste any ticks by recasting either SP or BOV on top of itself too soon, which can happen if you try to maintain just one, or you can miss heals in the same way by trying to use just one.The fact that at lvl 26 adept3 SP is only healing 1 more point then BOV does seem pretty bad even with the AC bonus. I think the problem is with the mana cost at that lvl but I do think the spell is balanced to work pretty well at higher lvls 35+ especially, which may cause problems for any attempts to "fix" it at lvl 26. Do they reduce the mana cost for lvl 26 players then reinstate it for lvl 36 players etc?I guess easiest fix would be to code it to consider the caster's lvl at +4 to current which would make it perform similarly to lvl 30ish for lvl 26 ppl, then higher lvl ppl would just cap it out sooner.But again, everyone is going to cap it eventually, so dunno how eager soe will be to change much about it when they can just tell us to "use bestowal untill your happy with Supplicants" , especially since access to adept3 Supplicants will probably take longer then reaching lvl 30+ for many of us anyway.

Gwynet · 12-12-2004, 09:57 PM

Lifewaster wrote:

@lvl 26 Supplicants heals 134 per tick plus adds 70 ish ac
@lvl 30 Supplicants heals 144 per tick plus adds 100ish ac
@lvl 35 Supplicants heals 158 per tick plus adds 150ish ac

The fact that at lvl 26 adept3 SP is only healing 1 more point then BOV does seem pretty bad even with the AC bonus.

Could you check this? Someone on the other thread said that the adept 3 of BoV healed for 134, but at 28 and not 26. In both cases though, it's still not quite right.

Lifewast · 12-13-2004, 12:28 AM

Oh sorry, it was actually healing 133 at lvl 28.....Correct numbers should be this for adept3 versions:@lvl 28 Supplicants heals 133 per tick @lvl 30 Supplicants heals 144 per tick @lvl 35 Supplicants heals 158 per tick So its actually heals less then BOV untill lvl 29+ (as well as costs more power)

Ember · 12-13-2004, 04:32 AM

>Could you check this? Someone on the other thread said that the adept 3 of BoV healed for 134, but at >28 and not 26. In both cases though, it's still not quite right.

I can verify that at level 24 I got the adept 3 of BoV and it was healing at 134. The spell was blue. It is still was healing at 134 at level 25 (green now).

Apathyloves · 12-13-2004, 06:27 AM

You want something changed here, there, or anywhere in the world? I'll tell you how.

Once there is collective agreement on what something is, the thing will change. Period.

The reason I asked for raw numbers NOT in this post and in Fix Supplicant's Prayer! was so the most number of people would look at them. The reason I started this thread was to subtly suggest that there is not an agreement either within this community and apparently with the Dev community either, and that by yelling about what you think is wrong does not change what you want changed. Agreement does.

Taken another way,

The Ford Mustang GT. 2005. No matter what people say about it, it does not change what the car is/looks like/does/behaves. No matter what you say about SP, the numbers are the numbers. They don't care if you like them, love them, or could care less about them. Someone designed the Ford Mustang GT and someone designed SP. If a minority of the community speaks loudly that does not make up for the rest of the community. Agreement within a community, imagine those 20 people I referred to earleri, all chanting the exact same tune, will ring with the developers.

What I say is neither true nor false, it is just the agreement of every community I have been in. If the community of the world where to tell me the world works another way, then I would change.

BakerJoe

Gwynet · 12-13-2004, 06:36 AM

ApathylovesPS wrote:

Once there is collective agreement on what something is, the thing will change. Period.

The reason I asked for raw numbers NOT in this post and in Fix Supplicant's Prayer! was so the most number of people would look at them. The reason I started this thread was to subtly suggest that there is not an agreement either within this community and apparently with the Dev community either, and that by yelling about what you think is wrong does not change what you want changed. Agreement does.

Not yelling actually, only maybe a few people still claim that it isn't broken after seeing numbers, one saying he doesn't even use the spell anyway, others not being templars.

Not sure what kind of collective agreement you are after if this isn't one.

Devs not agreeing with it? Come on, they probably haven't even read these forums in ages. Check the last message, where an inquisitor is saying that at 29 his adept 3 of the similar spell heals for 181... ours is 140. Not sure what more proof we need lol. If people still don't agree after that, they are probably just other healers who are worried that templars are too good healers or something SMILEY

Message Edited by Gwynet on 12-12-2004 05:42 PM

Gobbwin · 12-14-2004, 09:15 PM

Didn't they nerf the Inquisitors spells not too long ago to get them in line with ours?

Gwynet · 12-14-2004, 09:19 PM

They reverted the change the day afterwards.

Gobbwin · 12-14-2004, 11:14 PM

Gah, didn't know about that...sigh:smileysad:

12-12-2004, 09:57 PM	#4
Gwynet Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 348	Lifewaster wrote: @lvl 26 Supplicants heals 134 per tick plus adds 70 ish ac @lvl 30 Supplicants heals 144 per tick plus adds 100ish ac @lvl 35 Supplicants heals 158 per tick plus adds 150ish ac The fact that at lvl 26 adept3 SP is only healing 1 more point then BOV does seem pretty bad even with the AC bonus. Could you check this? Someone on the other thread said that the adept 3 of BoV healed for 134, but at 28 and not 26. In both cases though, it's still not quite right.

12-13-2004, 06:36 AM	#8
Gwynet Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 348	ApathylovesPS wrote: Once there is collective agreement on what something is, the thing will change. Period. The reason I asked for raw numbers NOT in this post and in Fix Supplicant's Prayer! was so the most number of people would look at them. The reason I started this thread was to subtly suggest that there is not an agreement either within this community and apparently with the Dev community either, and that by yelling about what you think is wrong does not change what you want changed. Agreement does. Not yelling actually, only maybe a few people still claim that it isn't broken after seeing numbers, one saying he doesn't even use the spell anyway, others not being templars. Not sure what kind of collective agreement you are after if this isn't one. Devs not agreeing with it? Come on, they probably haven't even read these forums in ages. Check the last message, where an inquisitor is saying that at 29 his adept 3 of the similar spell heals for 181... ours is 140. Not sure what more proof we need lol. If people still don't agree after that, they are probably just other healers who are worried that templars are too good healers or something Message Edited by Gwynet on 12-12-2004 05:42 PM

12-14-2004, 09:15 PM	#9
Gobbwin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 305	Didn't they nerf the Inquisitors spells not too long ago to get them in line with ours? __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kikio 80 Inquisitor Ferochus 70 Bruiser (Retired) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12-14-2004, 11:14 PM	#11
Gobbwin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 305	Gah, didn't know about that...sigh:smileysad: __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kikio 80 Inquisitor Ferochus 70 Bruiser (Retired) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12-12-2004, 09:28 AM	#1
Apathyloves Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	I've noticed several threads that start off on one topic, then get hijacked to an argument over whether supplican't prayer is broken or not.My new look on SP is that it is a community killer. In a room of 20 people, if just one person (and I assert that there is more than one person) is yelling at the top of their lungs in most other conversations, then the other 19 people will grow tired and weary of competing with the yelling. Ultimately, no fresh ideas, sharing of personal experiences, successes and failures can occur. Additionally, other problems that occur in the future will not get addressed.As this is a free forum and a location for self-expression, I ask that you understand that the results of anyone's actions (including myself) may not be what they intended and be aware of how your replies may land to not only the others replying, but those reading the thread as well.BakerJoe27 Templar/28 Provisioner - Nektulos

12-12-2004, 09:30 AM	#2
Gwynet Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 348	So, what's your solution? I'm curious, but I don't think that dropping the issue is going to get our spell fixed. I really don't think that people trying to fix one of our main spells are a community breaker at all. That's way different from people who would complain about our heals being overall too weak, our class being useless or [Removed for Content] compared to another class etc... Then, it would be a people's opinion that they would try to force on other people. That would definitely be a community breaker. People trying to fix one of our spells, and giving figures showing it's broken? Definitely not. I will agree with one thing though - it's the first time I don't see the community of a class acting together to fix something that is broken. I don't understand it at all and I'll admit it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Message Edited by Gwynet on 12-11-2004 08:41 PM

12-12-2004, 08:51 PM	#3
Lifewast Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 40	Well what is this thread for ? Latest heal numbers maybe? ....heres what I got with adept3 versions of both.@lvl 26 Supplicants heals 134 per tick plus adds 70 ish ac@lvl 30 Supplicants heals 144 per tick plus adds 100ish ac@lvl 35 Supplicants heals 158 per tick plus adds 150ish acFrom lvl 25+ Bestowal heals a max of 134 per tick with no ACI think from lvl 30+ its possibly more efficient to use Supplicants over Bestowal if mana isnt a huge issue , certainly no question from lvl 35+To be honest though, its probably most efficient of all to take advantage of being able to use both untill such time, (lvl 35+) that bestowal fades totally in comparitive efficiency.By using both I mean, you cast SP , then before SP wears off you cast BOV , this allows you to use the BOV as a buffer to take effect immediately SP wears off, then recast SP whilst the BOV is in effect and so on....By doing this, you ensure a constant supply of ticks, but also never waste any ticks by recasting either SP or BOV on top of itself too soon, which can happen if you try to maintain just one, or you can miss heals in the same way by trying to use just one.The fact that at lvl 26 adept3 SP is only healing 1 more point then BOV does seem pretty bad even with the AC bonus. I think the problem is with the mana cost at that lvl but I do think the spell is balanced to work pretty well at higher lvls 35+ especially, which may cause problems for any attempts to "fix" it at lvl 26. Do they reduce the mana cost for lvl 26 players then reinstate it for lvl 36 players etc?I guess easiest fix would be to code it to consider the caster's lvl at +4 to current which would make it perform similarly to lvl 30ish for lvl 26 ppl, then higher lvl ppl would just cap it out sooner.But again, everyone is going to cap it eventually, so dunno how eager soe will be to change much about it when they can just tell us to "use bestowal untill your happy with Supplicants" , especially since access to adept3 Supplicants will probably take longer then reaching lvl 30+ for many of us anyway.

12-13-2004, 12:28 AM	#5
Lifewast Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 40	Oh sorry, it was actually healing 133 at lvl 28.....Correct numbers should be this for adept3 versions:@lvl 28 Supplicants heals 133 per tick @lvl 30 Supplicants heals 144 per tick @lvl 35 Supplicants heals 158 per tick So its actually heals less then BOV untill lvl 29+ (as well as costs more power)

12-13-2004, 04:32 AM	#6
Ember Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	>Could you check this? Someone on the other thread said that the adept 3 of BoV healed for 134, but at >28 and not 26. In both cases though, it's still not quite right. I can verify that at level 24 I got the adept 3 of BoV and it was healing at 134. The spell was blue. It is still was healing at 134 at level 25 (green now).

12-13-2004, 06:27 AM	#7
Apathyloves Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	You want something changed here, there, or anywhere in the world? I'll tell you how. Once there is collective agreement on what something is, the thing will change. Period. The reason I asked for raw numbers NOT in this post and in Fix Supplicant's Prayer! was so the most number of people would look at them. The reason I started this thread was to subtly suggest that there is not an agreement either within this community and apparently with the Dev community either, and that by yelling about what you think is wrong does not change what you want changed. Agreement does. Taken another way, The Ford Mustang GT. 2005. No matter what people say about it, it does not change what the car is/looks like/does/behaves. No matter what you say about SP, the numbers are the numbers. They don't care if you like them, love them, or could care less about them. Someone designed the Ford Mustang GT and someone designed SP. If a minority of the community speaks loudly that does not make up for the rest of the community. Agreement within a community, imagine those 20 people I referred to earleri, all chanting the exact same tune, will ring with the developers. What I say is neither true nor false, it is just the agreement of every community I have been in. If the community of the world where to tell me the world works another way, then I would change. BakerJoe

12-14-2004, 09:19 PM	#10
Gwynet Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 348	They reverted the change the day afterwards.