Coerce Master vs Adept 1 Beguile

Swi · 12-27-2006, 06:08 PM

I bought the master book for Coercer and it made a HUGE difference in the effectivness of my pets, but I have had no luck in finding a master book for Beguile - the best I found was an adept 1 SMILEY

Am I better off using my lvl 20 Charm (Coerce) which is master, or should I use my new lvl 33 charm (Beguile) which is adept 1? The only difference I see is that the duration is higher on the lvl 33 charm(Beguile), and I really dont care about the duration being higher.. because my mobs usually break erlier.Thanks SMILEY

Message Edited by SwifT on 12-27-2006 05:11 AM

The Dark Savant · 12-27-2006, 06:43 PM

Use the Coerce Master 1. The extra power of the master charm is more than worth it.

RightInTwo · 12-27-2006, 10:19 PM

Find the rare and get someone to craft you Beguile ADP III.

Krackus2k · 12-27-2006, 11:09 PM

I am still new to the coercer but I was under the idea that the Master Coerce will still be better then the Adept3 Beguile. I am actually in this very situation as I will be 33 VERY soon with no hope of finding a Master... SMILEY

Message Edited by Krackus2k on 12-27-2006 10:10 AM

Ibunubi · 12-27-2006, 11:51 PM

Use Coerce Master ... It does not matter which level charm you use because the only thing that matters is what rank you have your charm. The only upgrade you get from higher level charms is only longer duration.

I personally used Coerce master until I got Dominate master at 47, and I still use Dominate.

Swi · 12-27-2006, 11:59 PM

kick [Removed for Content]!! I'm glad to hear this SMILEY

Thanks for the info guys!

Message Edited by SwifT on 12-27-2006 11:00 AM

RightInTwo · 12-28-2006, 12:02 AM

I believe that the stats (IE: Regen for power and health on the mob) increase with every higher spell correct?

And not sure if the spell's resistability kicks in or not like it's supposed to.....Coerce's spell resist increases after lvl 40....while Beguile's kicks in at lvl 53.

I've never had to wait that long to find out the answer....but just something to think about.

I've never really wanted to keep using 'older' spells. I mean in certain cases I can see why (if you had a old Master vs new App II)....but we get new spells for a reason....and if I can find a new spell with ADP III, then I'll use that over the old Master anyday. Then again...I'm on a pvp server....so maybe that's why I think a little differently.

Other than those, yea the extra 5 mins. would be nice.....if it actually lasted the whole duration. lol. Oh well....can't make it that easy on us. SMILEY

Alaeth · 12-28-2006, 12:19 AM

RightInTwo wrote:
I believe that the stats (IE: Regen for power and health on the mob) increase with every higher spell correct?
And not sure if the spell's resistability kicks in or not like it's supposed to.....Coerce's spell resist increases after lvl 40....while Beguile's kicks in at lvl 53.
I've never had to wait that long to find out the answer....but just something to think about.
I've never really wanted to keep using 'older' spells. I mean in certain cases I can see why (if you had a old Master vs new App II)....but we get new spells for a reason....and if I can find a new spell with ADP III, then I'll use that over the old Master anyday. Then again...I'm on a pvp server....so maybe that's why I think a little differently.
Other than those, yea the extra 5 mins. would be nice.....if it actually lasted the whole duration. lol. Oh well....can't make it that easy on us.

While it is correct that the health/power regen rate increases on higher levels of charm, the amounts (both the increases and the base amounts) are so minimal compared to the health/power pools of upper-level mobs that that factor is all but irrelevant--especially when charmed mobs regen 4% health/power in or out of combat, unlike players who only regen at that rate out of combat.As for the resistability, no. As has been said any number of times on various threads in this forum, the increased resistability applies only to the after-break stun, not to the actual charm itself. Even then, that stun has such a high base chance of landing that even if you're using a charm past the level it lists, you'll almost always have the stun land anyways. That increased resistance effect is unimportant when deciding which level of charm spell to use.

Ibunubi · 12-28-2006, 12:24 AM

I'm on a PvP server, as well :smileyhappy: . Yeah the regen's increase with newer charms, but if your pet is low on hp/power, simply recharm it. However, pets will never run out of power unless they fight mobs with power drains.

As for resistability, your first two charms -- Befriend and Charm -- are the only ones that actually state they are limited by the level of mobs. Level 20 Coerce and after, do not state any such thing.

Nitanyspirit · 12-28-2006, 02:34 AM

Actually, all spells of control have their resistability increased after 20 levels.

But Charm's resistability only applies to the 2 second mesmerization effect when it terminates early.

da5idblacksun · 01-17-2007, 03:48 AM

How about Master Coerce vs. AD3 Beguile? I got an AD3 Beguile. Seems to work pretty good.

Signal9 · 01-17-2007, 05:57 PM

RightInTwo wrote:
Find the rare and get someone to craft you Beguile ADP III.

...And STILL use your Coerce Master.

The key is the - Master. It makes all the difference in the world.

Edit: What makes the difference in the spells is not the regan rate, or the resistability. It's that the charmed mob attacks at the quality of the charm. With Master level charm, every single attack, CA, and spell used by your charm-pet is at Master quality.

Charm warlock - Master AoE's

Charm Inquisitor - Master Heals

The lower level charms functionally differ only in the total time of the charm. They may not apply the stun at the end of the mez, but you can live through that. It's the damage difference that makes the lvl 20 master better than a lvl 50 Ad3.

Message Edited by Signal9 on 01-17-2007 08:01 AM

da5idblacksun · 01-17-2007, 09:36 PM

Thanks for the detailed answer.

Cattastrophy · 01-19-2007, 12:08 PM

I'ed jsut look at the pros and cons... If you can find a mob that nukes / CAs hard, use the master. If you can't and you only get healers and melee to pick from, the A3 of the level up will do, but remember, what ever your charm is labled as is what the monsters CAs and Spells are labled as. AKA Master 1 = Master spells and CAs, A3 = A3 spells and CAs.In later levels it's a no brainer, go with the master. At lower levels the A3 might help you out a bit if you plan on a long fight.

12-27-2006, 06:08 PM	#1
Swi Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2	I bought the master book for Coercer and it made a HUGE difference in the effectivness of my pets, but I have had no luck in finding a master book for Beguile - the best I found was an adept 1 Am I better off using my lvl 20 Charm (Coerce) which is master, or should I use my new lvl 33 charm (Beguile) which is adept 1? The only difference I see is that the duration is higher on the lvl 33 charm(Beguile), and I really dont care about the duration being higher.. because my mobs usually break erlier.Thanks Message Edited by SwifT on 12-27-2006 05:11 AM

12-27-2006, 11:09 PM	#4
Krackus2k Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 11	I am still new to the coercer but I was under the idea that the Master Coerce will still be better then the Adept3 Beguile. I am actually in this very situation as I will be 33 VERY soon with no hope of finding a Master... Message Edited by Krackus2k on 12-27-2006 10:10 AM

12-27-2006, 11:51 PM	#5
Ibunubi Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 346	Use Coerce Master ... It does not matter which level charm you use because the only thing that matters is what rank you have your charm. The only upgrade you get from higher level charms is only longer duration. I personally used Coerce master until I got Dominate master at 47, and I still use Dominate. __________________

12-27-2006, 11:59 PM	#6
Swi Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2	kick [Removed for Content]!! I'm glad to hear this Thanks for the info guys! Message Edited by SwifT on 12-27-2006 11:00 AM

12-28-2006, 12:19 AM	#8
Alaeth Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 144	RightInTwo wrote: I believe that the stats (IE: Regen for power and health on the mob) increase with every higher spell correct? And not sure if the spell's resistability kicks in or not like it's supposed to.....Coerce's spell resist increases after lvl 40....while Beguile's kicks in at lvl 53. I've never had to wait that long to find out the answer....but just something to think about. I've never really wanted to keep using 'older' spells. I mean in certain cases I can see why (if you had a old Master vs new App II)....but we get new spells for a reason....and if I can find a new spell with ADP III, then I'll use that over the old Master anyday. Then again...I'm on a pvp server....so maybe that's why I think a little differently. Other than those, yea the extra 5 mins. would be nice.....if it actually lasted the whole duration. lol. Oh well....can't make it that easy on us. While it is correct that the health/power regen rate increases on higher levels of charm, the amounts (both the increases and the base amounts) are so minimal compared to the health/power pools of upper-level mobs that that factor is all but irrelevant--especially when charmed mobs regen 4% health/power in or out of combat, unlike players who only regen at that rate out of combat.As for the resistability, no. As has been said any number of times on various threads in this forum, the increased resistability applies only to the after-break stun, not to the actual charm itself. Even then, that stun has such a high base chance of landing that even if you're using a charm past the level it lists, you'll almost always have the stun land anyways. That increased resistance effect is unimportant when deciding which level of charm spell to use.

12-27-2006, 06:43 PM	#2
The Dark Savant Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 89	Use the Coerce Master 1. The extra power of the master charm is more than worth it.

12-27-2006, 10:19 PM	#3
RightInTwo Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 49	Find the rare and get someone to craft you Beguile ADP III.

12-28-2006, 12:02 AM	#7
RightInTwo Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 49	I believe that the stats (IE: Regen for power and health on the mob) increase with every higher spell correct? And not sure if the spell's resistability kicks in or not like it's supposed to.....Coerce's spell resist increases after lvl 40....while Beguile's kicks in at lvl 53. I've never had to wait that long to find out the answer....but just something to think about. I've never really wanted to keep using 'older' spells. I mean in certain cases I can see why (if you had a old Master vs new App II)....but we get new spells for a reason....and if I can find a new spell with ADP III, then I'll use that over the old Master anyday. Then again...I'm on a pvp server....so maybe that's why I think a little differently. Other than those, yea the extra 5 mins. would be nice.....if it actually lasted the whole duration. lol. Oh well....can't make it that easy on us.

12-28-2006, 12:24 AM	#9
Ibunubi Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 346	I'm on a PvP server, as well :smileyhappy: . Yeah the regen's increase with newer charms, but if your pet is low on hp/power, simply recharm it. However, pets will never run out of power unless they fight mobs with power drains. As for resistability, your first two charms -- Befriend and Charm -- are the only ones that actually state they are limited by the level of mobs. Level 20 Coerce and after, do not state any such thing. __________________

12-28-2006, 02:34 AM	#10
Nitanyspirit Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 106	Actually, all spells of control have their resistability increased after 20 levels. But Charm's resistability only applies to the 2 second mesmerization effect when it terminates early.

01-17-2007, 03:48 AM	#11
da5idblacksun Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 160	How about Master Coerce vs. AD3 Beguile? I got an AD3 Beguile. Seems to work pretty good.

01-17-2007, 05:57 PM	#12
Signal9 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 583	RightInTwo wrote: Find the rare and get someone to craft you Beguile ADP III. ...And STILL use your Coerce Master. The key is the - Master. It makes all the difference in the world. Edit: What makes the difference in the spells is not the regan rate, or the resistability. It's that the charmed mob attacks at the quality of the charm. With Master level charm, every single attack, CA, and spell used by your charm-pet is at Master quality. Charm warlock - Master AoE's Charm Inquisitor - Master Heals The lower level charms functionally differ only in the total time of the charm. They may not apply the stun at the end of the mez, but you can live through that. It's the damage difference that makes the lvl 20 master better than a lvl 50 Ad3. Message Edited by Signal9 on 01-17-2007 08:01 AM __________________

01-17-2007, 09:36 PM	#13
da5idblacksun Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 160	Thanks for the detailed answer.

01-19-2007, 12:08 PM	#14
Cattastrophy Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 110	I'ed jsut look at the pros and cons... If you can find a mob that nukes / CAs hard, use the master. If you can't and you only get healers and melee to pick from, the A3 of the level up will do, but remember, what ever your charm is labled as is what the monsters CAs and Spells are labled as. AKA Master 1 = Master spells and CAs, A3 = A3 spells and CAs.In later levels it's a no brainer, go with the master. At lower levels the A3 might help you out a bit if you plan on a long fight.