subjugation skill and charm

Thibor24 · 10-27-2006, 11:34 PM

Does increasing your subjugation skill help charm break less often?

I havn't seen this in any of the charm faq's.

thanks

electricninjasex · 10-27-2006, 11:45 PM

The empirical evidence says yes. I was unable to hold charms in Nizara or land mezzes as easily while naked.

Korpo · 10-28-2006, 01:36 AM

Subj helps your control spells land, but doesn't say anything about keeping them maintained. However, since charm can break at random times, I'm guessing the mechanic is something along the lines of the spell automatically trying to re-charm every minute or something, and if one of those gets resisted you have a break. So yeah, subj does seem to help with it.

Tanatus · 10-28-2006, 07:28 AM

Tested...

No effect what so ever ... Actually higher Subj lead to to higher rate of charm brake (but not statistical meaninfull like 5-7% chance higher Subj 350 and Subj 420, pet LOA berserker lvl 64 mob) Conclusion - increase subj - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up duration of charm in raid zones

freesee · 10-30-2006, 12:17 PM

Im level 70 coercer my subjugation is at 426 maxed and then some, I hae M1 Domination and dont have a lot of problems in nizara with charmed mobs breaking, one or twice at most.Outside nizara it seems to break more for some reason, but not as much when it was at adept III

Kyriel · 10-30-2006, 02:23 PM

Tanatus wrote:

Tested...

No effect what so ever ... Actually higher Subj lead to to higher rate of charm brake (but not statistical meaninfull like 5-7% chance higher Subj 350 and Subj 420, pet LOA berserker lvl 64 mob) Conclusion - increase subj - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up duration of charm in raid zones

What tanatus says (like most of the time) is wrong. The answer is yes. It helps against resists for landing, and for maintaining charm.

Message Edited by Zemfira on 10-30-2006 01:24 AM

Tanatus · 10-31-2006, 09:28 AM

Lol Zemfira yet not level 70 but already actively trying to critize one of the patriahs .... lol

But just for reference I recomend you read all what developers said about skill .... to save you headache going trough all thier posts

As per person who developed it:

Skill increase will help you against mobs that cons LOWER then you and effect nearly declined at EVEN cone and wont affect ORANGE and RED conned mobs.... But guess what lol? vs. green/blue conned mobs your masters spells never bonce anyway.

In EQ2 much like it was in EQ1 - level is God, spell quality is the King

Believe you or not but with zero subj and apprentice 1 spell you will be have better success in landing spells on mob that 5 level below you (green con) then with 450 subj and master spells then you trying to land spell on orange conned mob

Dekiri · 10-31-2006, 02:13 PM

Tanatus wrote:

Lol Zemfira yet not level 70 but already actively trying to critize one of the patriahs .... lol

But just for reference I recomend you read all what developers said about skill .... to save you headache going trough all thier posts

As per person who developed it:

Skill increase will help you against mobs that cons LOWER then you and effect nearly declined at EVEN cone and wont affect ORANGE and RED conned mobs.... But guess what lol? vs. green/blue conned mobs your masters spells never bonce anyway.

In EQ2 much like it was in EQ1 - level is God, spell quality is the King

Believe you or not but with zero subj and apprentice 1 spell you will be have better success in landing spells on mob that 5 level below you (green con) then with 450 subj and master spells then you trying to land spell on orange conned mob

You do realize that your "answer" has nothing to do with the content of your first post in this thread? I really suggest that you don't post anymore since you obviously only troll and are even bad at that. That the positive effect the subjugation skill is declining the higher the mobs are is not surprising to anyone and it is also not the topic of this thread. Fact is that subjugation skill does help with charm and does help with the periodic resists, wich you denied (like a noob) How much it helps versus higher mobs is another deal, but not what this post here was about.Your commnet that higher subjugation leads to higher charm breaks is soo far off reality and such a made up nonsense that i really don't believe how you could think ANYONE with half a brain would believe you.You are really an idiot.

JackAll · 10-31-2006, 03:01 PM

All I see here is a lot of ppl going for the man.

Ppl like Dekiri here say that Tanatus is a troll because he doesnt agree. Thats just pathetic.

When you read this thread you see that one person has tested it. Every one else has a "feeling"

If you think Tanatus is wrong then go test it and post the results. Till then you might wanna be a little more carefull with your "facts"

Dekiri · 10-31-2006, 03:30 PM

JackAll wrote:

All I see here is a lot of ppl going for the man.

Ppl like Dekiri here say that Tanatus is a troll because he doesnt agree. Thats just pathetic.

When you read this thread you see that one person has tested it. Every one else has a "feeling"

If you think Tanatus is wrong then go test it and post the results. Till then you might wanna be a little more carefull with your "facts"

Did you even read the thread before you replied? He said he tested it and it makes it harder to charm and charms break more in his first post and in the second post he says that subjugation helps on lower level mobs and that the effect declines as the mobs con harder until the point that it has no effect anymore or almost. He is completly contradicting himself and he has not "tested it" he is just spouting nonsense, because i sure did not see logs posted by him. This is the internet, the chance that you find someone who has a minimum knowledge about how to properly test something AND the will to do so and is not just making things up saying "i have tested it" is so slim that you can safely assume he is talking nonsense. If you look at most of his posts he always claims to know everything and saying "i have tested it" doesn't make it more valuable, because he usually is wrong. He is not always wrong though, he was right in the mez discussion, but that doesn't mean he is making good arguments.

Not to mention that the chance that his testing was done properly (if he did it) is extremly slim, because he would have had to test it over a very long time period and under the same circumstances EVERYTIME (wich is impossible with the random resist values on the mobs btw, unless you are a dev) or test it so often that the randomness of mob resists would be unimportant statistically. He claims to be a top coercer on his server, wich i am just going to believe, that does not make him any better though then any other coercer... in fact it makes it almost impossible for him to have the time to test stuff properly, because a raiding guild on that level is a serious time commitment.(i speak from experience here) On top of all that .. all people who really test something actually post the logs, because they want to show off thier efforts, and unless he really doesn't feel like looking important(lol here) he would have posted sides of logs to show of how cool he is.So again please read and think before posting.

Message Edited by Dekiri on 10-31-2006 02:34 AM

Kyriel · 10-31-2006, 04:55 PM

Tanatus wrote:

Lol Zemfira yet not level 70 but already actively trying to critize one of the patriahs .... lol

But just for reference I recomend you read all what developers said about skill .... to save you headache going trough all thier posts

As per person who developed it:

Skill increase will help you against mobs that cons LOWER then you and effect nearly declined at EVEN cone and wont affect ORANGE and RED conned mobs.... But guess what lol? vs. green/blue conned mobs your masters spells never bonce anyway.

In EQ2 much like it was in EQ1 - level is God, spell quality is the King

Believe you or not but with zero subj and apprentice 1 spell you will be have better success in landing spells on mob that 5 level below you (green con) then with 450 subj and master spells then you trying to land spell on orange conned mob

God you are so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. It pains me every time you post. Yes.. sometimes you are right.. but 90% of the time all your posts are full of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] giving all the new coercers wrong info and like D said.. No logs for your "tests".

And I'm not 70 yet? What? Me--> http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=430447111 and my guild... www.heroes-fate.com I know nothing right..... *rolls-eyes* I can solo almost anything (heroic+yellows), and you know what? I have a full set of Subjugation gear.

Of course a mob 5 levels below you, your spells will land with no problem. But what your saying is that max subj and master 1 spell on an orange mob makes it easier to resist. Just that sentance sounds like bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].

I neither have any logs, but if I'm off soloing heroic instances and I dont have any subjugation gear on, my charms always break before the timer is up. And then I switch on all my subjugation gear (its 430 somthing i think? not sure, im not in game atm) and my charm stays for the full duration.

You just need to stop posting saying you know everything because you obivously dont.

As for the OP.. like i said... YES subjugation helps.

gracjan-s · 10-31-2006, 04:58 PM

Dekiri, maybe you should read Tanatus replay again, because his are almost the best in this thread. I dont know if he is right, but it is written logically and referred to the topic.

Dekiri · 10-31-2006, 05:04 PM

The second one is partitally on spot wich i also said i believe. It is completly contradicting his first post though. For the people backing him on his nonsense i am not sure are you either completly unable to read and comprehend or are you his alts? Claiming logic on what he presented in this thread is so crazy that i really can't believe you guys are sane. How can it be logical to claim that two complelty opposite things are true? The basic point is that a higher subjugation skill does not make charm easier to resist for mobs.... AT ALL. The opposite is the truth wich he pointed out in his second post. I will also state it again so everyone can read it:Higher subjugation skill does help your charms go through and will also help with the periodic resists when it checks for charm to break. The effect of this will of course decline the higher the mobs are relative to your own level and subjugation skill. It will also have close to none or no effect on mobs higher then yourself (yellow orange and red mobs).

What i believe is still debatable is if 1 subjugation and for example 300 subjugation make a difference on a yellow con mob or if it means that if you have more then your regular maximum for your level it will not have any additional effect.

Message Edited by Dekiri on 10-31-2006 05:15 AM

Kyriel · 10-31-2006, 05:18 PM

It doesn't work like it did Pre LU13, where a +25 skill increase actually changed the effective level of the spell by 5 levels. Now it acts as a modifier, so that even with a +25 skill increase, it doesn't mean that you have an even chance at hitting things 5 levels above the caster than if they weren't using the buff. Against most even con or lower con opponents, your spells are going to land most of the time anyway, so that little room for improvement makes its benefits less perceptibe (but they're still taking effect). However against higher con targets, being able to land spells more often is relatively noticeable, but again, the post LU13 environment means that the higher the con, the more diminished the benefit (you'll see a better bonus amount for landing on yellows than high oranges and reds).

=============================================
Jared Sweatt
EverQuest II Spells, Achievements, and Gameplay Designer

There's still every reason to find +casting skill gear and it does make it less difficult to land spells on higher cons, even oranges. The difference is that the benefit isn't as large against an orange as a yellow, or a red as an orange, because creature con mitigates some of the bonus (the same way physical and spell damage mitigation gets reduced when fighting higher cons). Against lower and even cons, it's more like overkill.

=============================================
Jared Sweatt

I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):

Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50

Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50

Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.

=============================================
Jared Sweatt
EverQuest II Spells, Achievements, and Gameplay Designer

Dekiri · 10-31-2006, 06:13 PM

Thanks for pulling that out i was to lazy to search for the actual quotes =)Thats clears up everything i guess now.So it stands that you even benefit from it when it comes to higher cons wich was the last thing i wasn't really 100% sure about.

JackAll · 10-31-2006, 07:40 PM

If you read my post again you will see that I didnt say I agreed with Tanatus.

There has on this board been a long history of actualy testing things out and not just letting your mouth run.

The devs are often wrong so if you just take what they say as the truth you will never get any bugs fixed.

Back to the point.

The latest about buffing casting skill from Scott Hartsman:

Casting Skill bonuses were not balanced in relative benefit that is granted through Melee and Avoidance Skills

Casters did not have as much incentive to increase their casting skills as melee classes because they did not receive as much benefit when reaching their caps. This resulted in bonuses to skills that favored melee classes much more than casters, which is more apparent in raid situations and fighting overcon encounters. Some of the specifics:

Offensive casting skill increases were only half as beneficial as the increased chances to hit offered by melee skill increases.
Debuffing casting skill was also only half as effective as debuffing melee skills.
The Fizzle mechanic filled a gap where beneficial spells did not need a resist check, so Fizzle became a ‘beneficial resist’ chance that could be mitigated with increased skill. It ended up being more of an annoyance than adding any interesting gameplay.
Focus skill had very little impact on damage interrupt rates, and the sources of most interrupts were unavoidable in the form of spell interrupts, stifles, and stuns.
PvP combat became heavily skewed towards melee classes because of non-damage interruptions, fizzles, and resist mechanics.

As you can see not even the devs think its worth buffing it.

Tanatus · 11-01-2006, 08:38 AM

Roflmao Zemfira comback here and brag then you can outsolo me in Nizara ... I did soloed first named - no problem....

I repeat again

DEVELOPERS SAID

Subjugation DO NOT HELP IF MOB HIGHER LEVEL THEN YOU

FYI I solo anything that not epic save Young Dragon, Second named and up Nizara and Nek 3

I have tested IN RAID ZONE stability of charm I have posted it already lvl 64 Amilogian (sp) Berserker LOA

Around 420 subj - averaged duration around 8 min with Master 1 Domination

350 subj - average duration 8.5 min

Hence at best it useless at worst hit make charm less stable

I DID test on mutiple type of mob - that ONLY factor that DO help is resistance AT THE MOMENT CHARM LANDED. Aka debuffung mental BEFORE charming help A LOT more then +1000000 subj. Chance of charm brake calculates refering resistance AT THE MOMENT of charm. Now reason why pets were usually harder to recharm is server-client lag then information about target resistance haven't been refreshed upon charm brake

So instead if bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing coercer comunity take your time and DO SEARCH then come back and bark

Kyriel · 11-01-2006, 01:54 PM

I rolled my eyes when I saw you replied, and after reading it, I am rolling my eyes again.

It helps. Not as much against orange or red mobs. But the benefit is still there. because the benefit MITIGATES, just like meelee

And as far as your 2 times you tested... excuse me while I roll my eyes again.

Just because I never posted here for 2 years doesnt mean I am not level 70.

If i was bragging It would be somthing like this " ROFL you noob, I can solo every mob and instance cuz I the best coercer in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game, Can you solo *etc, etc* or *etc etc*??" .. Yeah.

I was saying what my circumstances were.

You are purely [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], How many people have corrected you? I've gone through almost every one of your posts, and after your posts there are always people correcting you because most of the time your confused.

Roriondesexiest · 11-01-2006, 10:34 PM

Well I have found Tantus to usually be spot on when it comes to coercer knowledge. I have lots of subj gear and master level charms and even have the AA that increases sub skill. Charm seems to break as randomly as it always has, and mez's get resisted from time to time just like they always have. My corpse flames break just like they always do right when I have 5 mobs on me at once...:smileyvery-happy: Oh yeah and big deal we have all solo'd nameds heroics etc... It isn't too hard if you know what you are doing, usually it just quicker to find a group and do it anyways...

Message Edited by dalessit on 11-01-2006 09:36 AM

Aoi · 11-02-2006, 02:12 AM

Yeah, while Tanatus is a bit abrasive and tends to try to communicate that his way of playing Coercer is the only way, his facts are usually correct (which pains me to say since I have been at odds with him on many a thread).

That being said, isn't the upcoming combat revamp going to address the importance (or lack thereof) of buffing casting skills?

I think the last thing Zaleo psted was a actually from the combat revamp thread itself.

Cyene

Kyriel · 11-02-2006, 05:22 AM

Aoine wrote:

That being said, isn't the upcoming combat revamp going to address the importance (or lack thereof) of buffing casting skills?

Yep

Tanatus · 11-02-2006, 10:09 AM

Jezz I hate then ppl start barking without actually testing thing THEMSELF like I normally do ...

Once upon time - several months ago I did rather intensive testing various factors using various type of mobs (for pure time constrain purpose I used Dominate M1 instead of Domination M1).

In a shot form results

Subj don't help

Int .... DO ... help (but we running at max int anyway so pointless)

Initial resistance - help a lot - you can easy see it yourself if you take your time and go Barren sky and charm Orthalian sentry (extremely high initial mental resistance but green con). The only way statistically meaningfull increase average duration of charm those beast is serious mental debuffing BEFORE charm

Quality of charm ... self exlaining

Level ratio - yep - thats the key

Amount of damage mob take - irrelavant (dont affect charm)

Lol you dont even understand fundamentals how spells like charm work in terms of resistance check

There are 2 resistance check that goes on

a) Initial resistance check - this the ONLY one type of resistance check that EVER was/is affected in any form by subj. Effect so minor then we are talking about anything that even conned and above that its not worth mention plus in RAID ZONE it have even wierd twist - more subj lead to faster charm brake.... Also initial resist check affected by level ratio and quality of charm BUT its capped by 95% aka - no matter what mob always have 5% chance to resist (even with -6000 to mental).

b) Time based resistance check oh! here is interesting things come to play - with M charm resist check occure on more rare occasion and the ONLY factor that play role is "save roll" of mob vs. charm... How save roll is made? Well really simple baseline is resistance of mob ON THE MOMENT OF CHARM (that why so important debuff mob before charming) then that base resistance normalized on level ratio (quality of spell dont play role here ... suprised? - quality of spell affect only how often check been made). Anyway same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - ALWAYS there is 5% chance that mob will make successfull saving trow

More over there is no plans what so ever change this fundamental mechanic how resist check work... Even if developers will introduce dependence of INITIAL resist check on casting skill it still wont do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for STABILITY of charm

Oh btw speaking of history - only once upon time were actually items that increased damage of spell based on skill - wands that were droped from Archilich Udalan - they carried + class specific skills (like nocvigance for warlocks) but in worked in time then damage of spells were scaling with level of caster (and I kinda liked that)

Raidi Sovin'faile · 11-02-2006, 10:29 AM

The problem with Tanatus' posts is that he always takes the most extreme way of presenting it as possible (small benefit is no benefit at all). Usually accompanied by his abrasive tone, and ad hominem attacks. Many posters do this, it's just that Tanatus isn't afraid to inundate the coercer forum with his opinion.The fact is that it does help a little bit. Enough to be worth it? Only if you like that "less than 10% more effective" bonus... if you don't need it, or if your sampling is so small that you can't notice the difference, then it's not worth.Tanatus' way of saying that is "IT DOES NOTHING". It really does, but just not enough, therefore you must be a complete braincase to even consider increasing your subjugation skill. The "it makes it worse" can be a product of a small sampling size and bad luck on the streakiness of the RNG. It's the same reason brawlers die, and people claim the lotto button is not working. My Bruiser has a 95% chance to FD, yet he failed 4 times in a row. You'd need a sample of 80+ to start seeing that it might be the right %... but who remembers 80 FD's ago... therefore FD is broken starts to crop up.As it is... they are supposedly doubling the maxed effectiveness of capped +skill. Which means we should start seeing some kind of benefit after the update.

AdiX__Styxx__ · 11-02-2006, 08:43 PM

Tanatus wrote:

Jezz I hate then ppl start barking without actually testing thing THEMSELF like I normally do ...

Once upon time - several months ago I did rather intensive testing various factors using various type of mobs (for pure time constrain purpose I used Dominate M1 instead of Domination M1).

In a shot form results

Subj don't help

Int .... DO ... help (but we running at max int anyway so pointless)

Initial resistance - help a lot - you can easy see it yourself if you take your time and go Barren sky and charm Orthalian sentry (extremely high initial mental resistance but green con). The only way statistically meaningfull increase average duration of charm those beast is serious mental debuffing BEFORE charm

Quality of charm ... self exlaining

Level ratio - yep - thats the key

Amount of damage mob take - irrelavant (dont affect charm)

Lol you dont even understand fundamentals how spells like charm work in terms of resistance check

There are 2 resistance check that goes on

a) Initial resistance check - this the ONLY one type of resistance check that EVER was/is affected in any form by subj. Effect so minor then we are talking about anything that even conned and above that its not worth mention plus in RAID ZONE it have even wierd twist - more subj lead to faster charm brake.... Also initial resist check affected by level ratio and quality of charm BUT its capped by 95% aka - no matter what mob always have 5% chance to resist (even with -6000 to mental).

b) Time based resistance check oh! here is interesting things come to play - with M charm resist check occure on more rare occasion and the ONLY factor that play role is "save roll" of mob vs. charm... How save roll is made? Well really simple baseline is resistance of mob ON THE MOMENT OF CHARM (that why so important debuff mob before charming) then that base resistance normalized on level ratio (quality of spell dont play role here ... suprised? - quality of spell affect only how often check been made). Anyway same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - ALWAYS there is 5% chance that mob will make successfull saving trow

More over there is no plans what so ever change this fundamental mechanic how resist check work... Even if developers will introduce dependence of INITIAL resist check on casting skill it still wont do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for STABILITY of charm

Oh btw speaking of history - only once upon time were actually items that increased damage of spell based on skill - wands that were droped from Archilich Udalan - they carried + class specific skills (like nocvigance for warlocks) but in worked in time then damage of spells were scaling with level of caster (and I kinda liked that)

This post is very informative very straight to the point and encouraged me to test some things for myself!

The sentries tanatus is talking about are the ones in front of vault i assumed at least! So here is my testing since i ussually go there and when soloing in barren sky i pickup one of those sentries as my pet!

First of all b4 reading this post i never debuffed the mental resist check b4 charming i did think of it but just never seemed to do it cause i thought it wouldnt matter cause once charmed i thought it would recheck and reresist every once in a while for breaks and the debuff would be long gone !

Anwyays that was the first thing i tested i did 50 charm attempts on same mob (sentries) with adept 3 lvl 62 charm tho not master so that might affect my results a bit too! on 50 charm attempts i had only 2 resists wihtout debuffing and wiht debuffing only 1 resist!

Now that was the first test which the debuffing only increased my effectiveness by a lil as in :

1. without debuffing 1% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

2. with debuffing 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

Now after this i put my subj gear on (and yes i know the mob is green bare with me) i dont have that much subj gear but i can get to 400 so i consider the testing valid!

1. wihtout debuffing i had 1.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

2. with debuffing again 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

Conclusion is that there isnt really much difference and the 1% to 1.5% might just be unlucky so cant really get a decent conclusion form that however here comes the good stuff!

I used my low lvl charm also adept 3 for time saving and just sat there waiting for a break (wihtout the pet getting hit!!! in spell description it says that a bigger break occurs when yer pet gets hurt, ill get to that later)

Anyways i was just waiting for charm breaks and at first wihtout subj gear and wihtout debuffs

1. no subj gear and no debuffs on initial charm: 25 attempts most lasted full duration but had some breaks on a few cases that lasted only 3 min or so so recharm and restarted timer about 3 times it didnt last full duration on green mob 22 times full duration!

2. with subj gear but not debuffing : 25 attempts again 3 breaks

3 without subj gear and with debuffing upfront b4 charming 25 attempts 2 breaks

4 subj gear and with debuffing upfront 25 attempts 1 break only rest lasted full duration!

So even tho this testing i did was very minor and statistically not really admissable i still feel that a lot of what tanatus said is true and yes i learned something fomr his post too cause i never used to debuff b4 charming and it really did help and improved my gameplay too!

Anyways my conclusion is that even tho on the initial charm casting subj and debuff doesnt do that much to prevent resists it does seem to help a bit (not too much since 25 isnt a lotta testing again) it does help with the periodic checks as tanatus has stated in his posts!

Oh and one more thing i did the same thing for a yellow con mob in nizara and had aroudn the same results with just a few more initial resists and a few more breaks but similar overall since its yellow vs green mob!

The others who have been badmouthing tanatus might think b4 they do so again he might sometimes spout some BS out there but he has provided me with a lotta info on my class from the moment i deleted my wizard and rerolled a chanter and if ya do wanna badmouth him do as tanatus says and spend a buncha hours like i did testing what he is trying to tell the community if ya dont believe him!

And to Tanatus Thx again for yer insight but you might get better responses from people on these boards if ya would be a lil less abrasive as is stated and i fully agree with that in a previous post on this thread altough i do understand their responses getting out the worsed in you but same can be said about your initial post on this thread!

JackAll · 11-03-2006, 12:35 AM

Now THIS is what Im talking about.

Thanks for the info

Roriondesexiest · 11-03-2006, 12:47 AM

JackAll wrote:

Now THIS is what Im talking about.

Thanks for the info

Hey, I said the same thing. I just didn't do any actual testing to prove it SMILEY

stargazer5678 · 11-03-2006, 01:01 AM

AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

Tanatus wrote:

Jezz I hate then ppl start barking without actually testing thing THEMSELF like I normally do ...

Once upon time - several months ago I did rather intensive testing various factors using various type of mobs (for pure time constrain purpose I used Dominate M1 instead of Domination M1).

In a shot form results

Subj don't help

Int .... DO ... help (but we running at max int anyway so pointless)

Initial resistance - help a lot - you can easy see it yourself if you take your time and go Barren sky and charm Orthalian sentry (extremely high initial mental resistance but green con). The only way statistically meaningfull increase average duration of charm those beast is serious mental debuffing BEFORE charm

Quality of charm ... self exlaining

Level ratio - yep - thats the key

Amount of damage mob take - irrelavant (dont affect charm)

Lol you dont even understand fundamentals how spells like charm work in terms of resistance check

There are 2 resistance check that goes on

a) Initial resistance check - this the ONLY one type of resistance check that EVER was/is affected in any form by subj. Effect so minor then we are talking about anything that even conned and above that its not worth mention plus in RAID ZONE it have even wierd twist - more subj lead to faster charm brake.... Also initial resist check affected by level ratio and quality of charm BUT its capped by 95% aka - no matter what mob always have 5% chance to resist (even with -6000 to mental).

b) Time based resistance check oh! here is interesting things come to play - with M charm resist check occure on more rare occasion and the ONLY factor that play role is "save roll" of mob vs. charm... How save roll is made? Well really simple baseline is resistance of mob ON THE MOMENT OF CHARM (that why so important debuff mob before charming) then that base resistance normalized on level ratio (quality of spell dont play role here ... suprised? - quality of spell affect only how often check been made). Anyway same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - ALWAYS there is 5% chance that mob will make successfull saving trow

More over there is no plans what so ever change this fundamental mechanic how resist check work... Even if developers will introduce dependence of INITIAL resist check on casting skill it still wont do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for STABILITY of charm

Oh btw speaking of history - only once upon time were actually items that increased damage of spell based on skill - wands that were droped from Archilich Udalan - they carried + class specific skills (like nocvigance for warlocks) but in worked in time then damage of spells were scaling with level of caster (and I kinda liked that)

This post is very informative very straight to the point and encouraged me to test some things for myself!

The sentries tanatus is talking about are the ones in front of vault i assumed at least! So here is my testing since i ussually go there and when soloing in barren sky i pickup one of those sentries as my pet!

First of all b4 reading this post i never debuffed the mental resist check b4 charming i did think of it but just never seemed to do it cause i thought it wouldnt matter cause once charmed i thought it would recheck and reresist every once in a while for breaks and the debuff would be long gone !

Anwyays that was the first thing i tested i did 50 charm attempts on same mob (sentries) with adept 3 lvl 62 charm tho not master so that might affect my results a bit too! on 50 charm attempts i had only 2 resists wihtout debuffing and wiht debuffing only 1 resist!

Now that was the first test which the debuffing only increased my effectiveness by a lil as in :

1. without debuffing 1% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

2. with debuffing 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

Now after this i put my subj gear on (and yes i know the mob is green bare with me) i dont have that much subj gear but i can get to 400 so i consider the testing valid!

1. wihtout debuffing i had 1.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

2. with debuffing again 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm

Conclusion is that there isnt really much difference and the 1% to 1.5% might just be unlucky so cant really get a decent conclusion form that however here comes the good stuff!

I used my low lvl charm also adept 3 for time saving and just sat there waiting for a break (wihtout the pet getting hit!!! in spell description it says that a bigger break occurs when yer pet gets hurt, ill get to that later)

Anyways i was just waiting for charm breaks and at first wihtout subj gear and wihtout debuffs

1. no subj gear and no debuffs on initial charm: 25 attempts most lasted full duration but had some breaks on a few cases that lasted only 3 min or so so recharm and restarted timer about 3 times it didnt last full duration on green mob 22 times full duration!

2. with subj gear but not debuffing : 25 attempts again 3 breaks

3 without subj gear and with debuffing upfront b4 charming 25 attempts 2 breaks

4 subj gear and with debuffing upfront 25 attempts 1 break only rest lasted full duration!

So even tho this testing i did was very minor and statistically not really admissable i still feel that a lot of what tanatus said is true and yes i learned something fomr his post too cause i never used to debuff b4 charming and it really did help and improved my gameplay too!

Anyways my conclusion is that even tho on the initial charm casting subj and debuff doesnt do that much to prevent resists it does seem to help a bit (not too much since 25 isnt a lotta testing again) it does help with the periodic checks as tanatus has stated in his posts!

Oh and one more thing i did the same thing for a yellow con mob in nizara and had aroudn the same results with just a few more initial resists and a few more breaks but similar overall since its yellow vs green mob!

The others who have been badmouthing tanatus might think b4 they do so again he might sometimes spout some BS out there but he has provided me with a lotta info on my class from the moment i deleted my wizard and rerolled a chanter and if ya do wanna badmouth him do as tanatus says and spend a buncha hours like i did testing what he is trying to tell the community if ya dont believe him!

And to Tanatus Thx again for yer insight but you might get better responses from people on these boards if ya would be a lil less abrasive as is stated and i fully agree with that in a previous post on this thread altough i do understand their responses getting out the worsed in you but same can be said about your initial post on this thread!

I am a newbie Coercer and found a lot of useful info on this forum. Many coercers share their experiences and that's great.

That said I have a few points.

1. When tests are done testers have to use a large sample. In the post above I see numbers like 50 or even 25 attempts.. From statistical point of view that's not enough. Consider a sample size of 500 or more to be able to draw some conclusion.

2. It's interesting to learn about the mechanics of resists. It would be interesting to find out how Tanatus figured out what he posted about 2 checks. Also from what I know there is a chance to break charm when damage is taken. Is that true? If yes is it the same check as for the timed checks?

Yasen, the newbie Coercer

AdiX__Styxx__ · 11-03-2006, 03:19 AM

yea i know 25 and 50 as samples which i took arent really a good testing base but....i did state it in my post! altough it also does give somewhat of a conclusion even tho minor which i described!

And for the when pet gets harmed break yea its in the description i believe ill check it again tonight but im sure there is a tiny chance whenever the pet takes damage that he will break (direct targeted damage)!

But to do 500 tests i would love to see a sheet with tests ranging from green to yellow / orange altough can you imagine the timespan it takes to take these tests ? waiting for the charm duration? and using a lowby lvl charm doesnt really work since the resist rate will go up significantly cause of the outdated spell and to test as a lowby coercer on greens and orange also doesnt really give much input well some ofc but not much cause of the lower resists those mobs have vs t7 mobs and even t8 mobs!

Also the gap of gear between lower tiers and t7 is significant (read subjugation) so i cant see how that will prove usefull for t7 coercer who try to figure stuff out!

I know Tanatus does his tested quite extensively and i tried to do so too but just dont have the time so i set myself a base number to base my tests on 50 for greens and 25 for yellows and compare it somewhat! also note that my spell lvl was adept 3 not master yet /cry!

But yes i agree

Alaeth · 11-03-2006, 04:13 AM

Regarding the break on damage issue, I have a feeling that's a holdover from the way charm used to work. There are plenty of examples of spell "flavor" descriptions not precisely matching actual effects, so usually it's better to look at the bulleted list of effects for a spell. If you check Possession, you'll see that it has an explicitly stated "1% chance to break on damage received" effect listed, while nothing of the sort appears on any charm spell.Of course, the recurring break chance isn't explicitly listed on charm spells either, and that definitely exists, so obviously the bulleted effect list isn't 100% accurate. Still, based on personal experience if nothing else, I can't say I've noticed that charm is any more likely to break when your pet is taking damage.

Tanatus · 11-03-2006, 07:24 AM

Folks the only way skills will affect our casting ability if

a) buffing disruption will actually equal to DPS buffing (personally I dont see this happend because wizards starts cry river about warlocks damage boost)

b) buffing focus will start actually help against disrution (tough in this particular case I am not entierly sure that its already not working because subjectively then my focus approach to mark 500 I almost never get interupted)

c) subjugation skill will start actually affect reoccuring resistance check in addition to initial resistance check or it all worthless

d) ordination and minitration should actually carry bonus to buffs/healing

But all above is required redo ALL casting mechanic .... no gona happend from what I heared from developers who playing coercers

10-27-2006, 11:34 PM	#1
Thibor24 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 180	Does increasing your subjugation skill help charm break less often? I havn't seen this in any of the charm faq's. thanks __________________ Mishrack 70 Conjurer Gloaming 61 Coercer Of Highkeep

10-28-2006, 01:36 AM	#3
Korpo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,141	Subj helps your control spells land, but doesn't say anything about keeping them maintained. However, since charm can break at random times, I'm guessing the mechanic is something along the lines of the spell automatically trying to re-charm every minute or something, and if one of those gets resisted you have a break. So yeah, subj does seem to help with it. __________________

10-30-2006, 12:17 PM	#5
freesee Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6	Im level 70 coercer my subjugation is at 426 maxed and then some, I hae M1 Domination and dont have a lot of problems in nizara with charmed mobs breaking, one or twice at most.Outside nizara it seems to break more for some reason, but not as much when it was at adept III __________________ http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...t/dynamooo.gif

10-30-2006, 02:23 PM	#6
Kyriel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,386	Tanatus wrote: Tested... No effect what so ever ... Actually higher Subj lead to to higher rate of charm brake (but not statistical meaninfull like 5-7% chance higher Subj 350 and Subj 420, pet LOA berserker lvl 64 mob) Conclusion - increase subj - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up duration of charm in raid zones What tanatus says (like most of the time) is wrong. The answer is yes. It helps against resists for landing, and for maintaining charm. Message Edited by Zemfira on 10-30-2006 01:24 AM __________________ Click Below to Watch Kyriel's EQ2 Music Video!!

10-31-2006, 02:13 PM	#8
Dekiri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	Tanatus wrote: Lol Zemfira yet not level 70 but already actively trying to critize one of the patriahs .... lol But just for reference I recomend you read all what developers said about skill .... to save you headache going trough all thier posts As per person who developed it: Skill increase will help you against mobs that cons LOWER then you and effect nearly declined at EVEN cone and wont affect ORANGE and RED conned mobs.... But guess what lol? vs. green/blue conned mobs your masters spells never bonce anyway. In EQ2 much like it was in EQ1 - level is God, spell quality is the King Believe you or not but with zero subj and apprentice 1 spell you will be have better success in landing spells on mob that 5 level below you (green con) then with 450 subj and master spells then you trying to land spell on orange conned mob You do realize that your "answer" has nothing to do with the content of your first post in this thread? I really suggest that you don't post anymore since you obviously only troll and are even bad at that. That the positive effect the subjugation skill is declining the higher the mobs are is not surprising to anyone and it is also not the topic of this thread. Fact is that subjugation skill does help with charm and does help with the periodic resists, wich you denied (like a noob) How much it helps versus higher mobs is another deal, but not what this post here was about.Your commnet that higher subjugation leads to higher charm breaks is soo far off reality and such a made up nonsense that i really don't believe how you could think ANYONE with half a brain would believe you.You are really an idiot.

10-27-2006, 11:45 PM	#2
electricninjasex Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 413	The empirical evidence says yes. I was unable to hold charms in Nizara or land mezzes as easily while naked.

10-28-2006, 07:28 AM	#4
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Tested... No effect what so ever ... Actually higher Subj lead to to higher rate of charm brake (but not statistical meaninfull like 5-7% chance higher Subj 350 and Subj 420, pet LOA berserker lvl 64 mob) Conclusion - increase subj - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up duration of charm in raid zones

10-31-2006, 09:28 AM	#7
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Lol Zemfira yet not level 70 but already actively trying to critize one of the patriahs .... lol But just for reference I recomend you read all what developers said about skill .... to save you headache going trough all thier posts As per person who developed it: Skill increase will help you against mobs that cons LOWER then you and effect nearly declined at EVEN cone and wont affect ORANGE and RED conned mobs.... But guess what lol? vs. green/blue conned mobs your masters spells never bonce anyway. In EQ2 much like it was in EQ1 - level is God, spell quality is the King Believe you or not but with zero subj and apprentice 1 spell you will be have better success in landing spells on mob that 5 level below you (green con) then with 450 subj and master spells then you trying to land spell on orange conned mob

10-31-2006, 03:01 PM	#9
JackAll Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 282	All I see here is a lot of ppl going for the man. Ppl like Dekiri here say that Tanatus is a troll because he doesnt agree. Thats just pathetic. When you read this thread you see that one person has tested it. Every one else has a "feeling" If you think Tanatus is wrong then go test it and post the results. Till then you might wanna be a little more carefull with your "facts"

10-31-2006, 03:30 PM	#10
Dekiri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	JackAll wrote: All I see here is a lot of ppl going for the man. Ppl like Dekiri here say that Tanatus is a troll because he doesnt agree. Thats just pathetic. When you read this thread you see that one person has tested it. Every one else has a "feeling" If you think Tanatus is wrong then go test it and post the results. Till then you might wanna be a little more carefull with your "facts" Did you even read the thread before you replied? He said he tested it and it makes it harder to charm and charms break more in his first post and in the second post he says that subjugation helps on lower level mobs and that the effect declines as the mobs con harder until the point that it has no effect anymore or almost. He is completly contradicting himself and he has not "tested it" he is just spouting nonsense, because i sure did not see logs posted by him. This is the internet, the chance that you find someone who has a minimum knowledge about how to properly test something AND the will to do so and is not just making things up saying "i have tested it" is so slim that you can safely assume he is talking nonsense. If you look at most of his posts he always claims to know everything and saying "i have tested it" doesn't make it more valuable, because he usually is wrong. He is not always wrong though, he was right in the mez discussion, but that doesn't mean he is making good arguments. Not to mention that the chance that his testing was done properly (if he did it) is extremly slim, because he would have had to test it over a very long time period and under the same circumstances EVERYTIME (wich is impossible with the random resist values on the mobs btw, unless you are a dev) or test it so often that the randomness of mob resists would be unimportant statistically. He claims to be a top coercer on his server, wich i am just going to believe, that does not make him any better though then any other coercer... in fact it makes it almost impossible for him to have the time to test stuff properly, because a raiding guild on that level is a serious time commitment.(i speak from experience here) On top of all that .. all people who really test something actually post the logs, because they want to show off thier efforts, and unless he really doesn't feel like looking important(lol here) he would have posted sides of logs to show of how cool he is.So again please read and think before posting. Message Edited by Dekiri on 10-31-2006 02:34 AM

10-31-2006, 04:55 PM	#11
Kyriel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,386	Tanatus wrote: Lol Zemfira yet not level 70 but already actively trying to critize one of the patriahs .... lol But just for reference I recomend you read all what developers said about skill .... to save you headache going trough all thier posts As per person who developed it: Skill increase will help you against mobs that cons LOWER then you and effect nearly declined at EVEN cone and wont affect ORANGE and RED conned mobs.... But guess what lol? vs. green/blue conned mobs your masters spells never bonce anyway. In EQ2 much like it was in EQ1 - level is God, spell quality is the King Believe you or not but with zero subj and apprentice 1 spell you will be have better success in landing spells on mob that 5 level below you (green con) then with 450 subj and master spells then you trying to land spell on orange conned mob God you are so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. It pains me every time you post. Yes.. sometimes you are right.. but 90% of the time all your posts are full of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] giving all the new coercers wrong info and like D said.. No logs for your "tests". And I'm not 70 yet? What? Me--> http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=430447111 and my guild... www.heroes-fate.com I know nothing right..... rolls-eyes I can solo almost anything (heroic+yellows), and you know what? I have a full set of Subjugation gear. Of course a mob 5 levels below you, your spells will land with no problem. But what your saying is that max subj and master 1 spell on an orange mob makes it easier to resist. Just that sentance sounds like bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I neither have any logs, but if I'm off soloing heroic instances and I dont have any subjugation gear on, my charms always break before the timer is up. And then I switch on all my subjugation gear (its 430 somthing i think? not sure, im not in game atm) and my charm stays for the full duration. You just need to stop posting saying you know everything because you obivously dont. As for the OP.. like i said... YES subjugation helps. __________________ Click Below to Watch Kyriel's EQ2 Music Video!!

10-31-2006, 04:58 PM	#12
gracjan-s Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Berlin Posts: 84	Dekiri, maybe you should read Tanatus replay again, because his are almost the best in this thread. I dont know if he is right, but it is written logically and referred to the topic. __________________ Co-Admin at EverquestII.info

10-31-2006, 05:04 PM	#13
Dekiri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	The second one is partitally on spot wich i also said i believe. It is completly contradicting his first post though. For the people backing him on his nonsense i am not sure are you either completly unable to read and comprehend or are you his alts? Claiming logic on what he presented in this thread is so crazy that i really can't believe you guys are sane. How can it be logical to claim that two complelty opposite things are true? The basic point is that a higher subjugation skill does not make charm easier to resist for mobs.... AT ALL. The opposite is the truth wich he pointed out in his second post. I will also state it again so everyone can read it:Higher subjugation skill does help your charms go through and will also help with the periodic resists when it checks for charm to break. The effect of this will of course decline the higher the mobs are relative to your own level and subjugation skill. It will also have close to none or no effect on mobs higher then yourself (yellow orange and red mobs). What i believe is still debatable is if 1 subjugation and for example 300 subjugation make a difference on a yellow con mob or if it means that if you have more then your regular maximum for your level it will not have any additional effect. Message Edited by Dekiri on 10-31-2006 05:15 AM

10-31-2006, 05:18 PM	#14
Kyriel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,386	It doesn't work like it did Pre LU13, where a +25 skill increase actually changed the effective level of the spell by 5 levels. Now it acts as a modifier, so that even with a +25 skill increase, it doesn't mean that you have an even chance at hitting things 5 levels above the caster than if they weren't using the buff. Against most even con or lower con opponents, your spells are going to land most of the time anyway, so that little room for improvement makes its benefits less perceptibe (but they're still taking effect). However against higher con targets, being able to land spells more often is relatively noticeable, but again, the post LU13 environment means that the higher the con, the more diminished the benefit (you'll see a better bonus amount for landing on yellows than high oranges and reds). ============================================= Jared Sweatt EverQuest II Spells, Achievements, and Gameplay Designer There's still every reason to find +casting skill gear and it does make it less difficult to land spells on higher cons, even oranges. The difference is that the benefit isn't as large against an orange as a yellow, or a red as an orange, because creature con mitigates some of the bonus (the same way physical and spell damage mitigation gets reduced when fighting higher cons). Against lower and even cons, it's more like overkill. ============================================= Jared Sweatt I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist): Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50 Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50 Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended. ============================================= Jared Sweatt EverQuest II Spells, Achievements, and Gameplay Designer __________________ Click Below to Watch Kyriel's EQ2 Music Video!!

10-31-2006, 06:13 PM	#15
Dekiri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	Thanks for pulling that out i was to lazy to search for the actual quotes =)Thats clears up everything i guess now.So it stands that you even benefit from it when it comes to higher cons wich was the last thing i wasn't really 100% sure about.

10-31-2006, 07:40 PM	#16
JackAll Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 282	If you read my post again you will see that I didnt say I agreed with Tanatus. There has on this board been a long history of actualy testing things out and not just letting your mouth run. The devs are often wrong so if you just take what they say as the truth you will never get any bugs fixed. Back to the point. The latest about buffing casting skill from Scott Hartsman: Casting Skill bonuses were not balanced in relative benefit that is granted through Melee and Avoidance Skills Casters did not have as much incentive to increase their casting skills as melee classes because they did not receive as much benefit when reaching their caps. This resulted in bonuses to skills that favored melee classes much more than casters, which is more apparent in raid situations and fighting overcon encounters. Some of the specifics: Offensive casting skill increases were only half as beneficial as the increased chances to hit offered by melee skill increases. Debuffing casting skill was also only half as effective as debuffing melee skills. The Fizzle mechanic filled a gap where beneficial spells did not need a resist check, so Fizzle became a ‘beneficial resist’ chance that could be mitigated with increased skill. It ended up being more of an annoyance than adding any interesting gameplay. Focus skill had very little impact on damage interrupt rates, and the sources of most interrupts were unavoidable in the form of spell interrupts, stifles, and stuns. PvP combat became heavily skewed towards melee classes because of non-damage interruptions, fizzles, and resist mechanics. As you can see not even the devs think its worth buffing it.

11-01-2006, 08:38 AM	#17
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Roflmao Zemfira comback here and brag then you can outsolo me in Nizara ... I did soloed first named - no problem.... I repeat again *DEVELOPERS SAID* Subjugation DO NOT HELP IF MOB HIGHER LEVEL THEN YOU FYI I solo anything that not epic save Young Dragon, Second named and up Nizara and Nek 3 I have tested IN RAID ZONE stability of charm I have posted it already lvl 64 Amilogian (sp) Berserker LOA Around 420 subj - averaged duration around 8 min with Master 1 Domination 350 subj - average duration 8.5 min Hence at best it useless at worst hit make charm less stable I DID test on mutiple type of mob - that ONLY factor that DO help is resistance AT THE MOMENT CHARM LANDED. Aka debuffung mental BEFORE charming help A LOT more then +1000000 subj. Chance of charm brake calculates refering resistance AT THE MOMENT of charm. Now reason why pets were usually harder to recharm is server-client lag then information about target resistance haven't been refreshed upon charm brake So instead if bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing coercer comunity take your time and DO SEARCH then come back and bark

11-01-2006, 01:54 PM	#18
Kyriel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,386	I rolled my eyes when I saw you replied, and after reading it, I am rolling my eyes again. It helps. Not as much against orange or red mobs. But the benefit is still there. because the benefit MITIGATES, just like meelee And as far as your 2 times you tested... excuse me while I roll my eyes again. Just because I never posted here for 2 years doesnt mean I am not level 70. If i was bragging It would be somthing like this " ROFL you noob, I can solo every mob and instance cuz I the best coercer in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game, Can you solo etc, etc or etc etc??" .. Yeah. I was saying what my circumstances were. You are purely [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], How many people have corrected you? I've gone through almost every one of your posts, and after your posts there are always people correcting you because most of the time your confused. __________________ Click Below to Watch Kyriel's EQ2 Music Video!!

11-01-2006, 10:34 PM	#19
Roriondesexiest Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 581	Well I have found Tantus to usually be spot on when it comes to coercer knowledge. I have lots of subj gear and master level charms and even have the AA that increases sub skill. Charm seems to break as randomly as it always has, and mez's get resisted from time to time just like they always have. My corpse flames break just like they always do right when I have 5 mobs on me at once...:smileyvery-happy: Oh yeah and big deal we have all solo'd nameds heroics etc... It isn't too hard if you know what you are doing, usually it just quicker to find a group and do it anyways... Message Edited by dalessit on 11-01-2006 09:36 AM __________________

11-02-2006, 02:12 AM	#20
Aoi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 117	Yeah, while Tanatus is a bit abrasive and tends to try to communicate that his way of playing Coercer is the only way, his facts are usually correct (which pains me to say since I have been at odds with him on many a thread). That being said, isn't the upcoming combat revamp going to address the importance (or lack thereof) of buffing casting skills? I think the last thing Zaleo psted was a actually from the combat revamp thread itself. Cyene

11-02-2006, 05:22 AM	#21
Kyriel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,386	Aoine wrote: That being said, isn't the upcoming combat revamp going to address the importance (or lack thereof) of buffing casting skills? Yep __________________ Click Below to Watch Kyriel's EQ2 Music Video!!

11-02-2006, 10:09 AM	#22
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Jezz I hate then ppl start barking without actually testing thing THEMSELF like I normally do ... Once upon time - several months ago I did rather intensive testing various factors using various type of mobs (for pure time constrain purpose I used Dominate M1 instead of Domination M1). In a shot form results Subj don't help Int .... DO ... help (but we running at max int anyway so pointless) Initial resistance - help a lot - you can easy see it yourself if you take your time and go Barren sky and charm Orthalian sentry (extremely high initial mental resistance but green con). The only way statistically meaningfull increase average duration of charm those beast is serious mental debuffing BEFORE charm Quality of charm ... self exlaining Level ratio - yep - thats the key Amount of damage mob take - irrelavant (dont affect charm) Lol you dont even understand fundamentals how spells like charm work in terms of resistance check There are 2 resistance check that goes on a) Initial resistance check - this the ONLY one type of resistance check that EVER was/is affected in any form by subj. Effect so minor then we are talking about anything that even conned and above that its not worth mention plus in RAID ZONE it have even wierd twist - more subj lead to faster charm brake.... Also initial resist check affected by level ratio and quality of charm BUT its capped by 95% aka - no matter what mob always have 5% chance to resist (even with -6000 to mental). b) Time based resistance check oh! here is interesting things come to play - with M charm resist check occure on more rare occasion and the ONLY factor that play role is "save roll" of mob vs. charm... How save roll is made? Well really simple baseline is resistance of mob ON THE MOMENT OF CHARM (that why so important debuff mob before charming) then that base resistance normalized on level ratio (quality of spell dont play role here ... suprised? - quality of spell affect only how often check been made). Anyway same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - ALWAYS there is 5% chance that mob will make successfull saving trow More over there is no plans what so ever change this fundamental mechanic how resist check work... Even if developers will introduce dependence of INITIAL resist check on casting skill it still wont do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for STABILITY of charm Oh btw speaking of history - only once upon time were actually items that increased damage of spell based on skill - wands that were droped from Archilich Udalan - they carried + class specific skills (like nocvigance for warlocks) but in worked in time then damage of spells were scaling with level of caster (and I kinda liked that)

11-02-2006, 10:29 AM	#23
Raidi Sovin'faile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,320	The problem with Tanatus' posts is that he always takes the most extreme way of presenting it as possible (small benefit is no benefit at all). Usually accompanied by his abrasive tone, and ad hominem attacks. Many posters do this, it's just that Tanatus isn't afraid to inundate the coercer forum with his opinion.The fact is that it does help a little bit. Enough to be worth it? Only if you like that "less than 10% more effective" bonus... if you don't need it, or if your sampling is so small that you can't notice the difference, then it's not worth.Tanatus' way of saying that is "IT DOES NOTHING". It really does, but just not enough, therefore you must be a complete braincase to even consider increasing your subjugation skill. The "it makes it worse" can be a product of a small sampling size and bad luck on the streakiness of the RNG. It's the same reason brawlers die, and people claim the lotto button is not working. My Bruiser has a 95% chance to FD, yet he failed 4 times in a row. You'd need a sample of 80+ to start seeing that it might be the right %... but who remembers 80 FD's ago... therefore FD is broken starts to crop up.As it is... they are supposedly doubling the maxed effectiveness of capped +skill. Which means we should start seeing some kind of benefit after the update.

11-02-2006, 08:43 PM	#24
AdiX__Styxx__ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 396	Tanatus wrote: Jezz I hate then ppl start barking without actually testing thing THEMSELF like I normally do ... Once upon time - several months ago I did rather intensive testing various factors using various type of mobs (for pure time constrain purpose I used Dominate M1 instead of Domination M1). In a shot form results Subj don't help Int .... DO ... help (but we running at max int anyway so pointless) Initial resistance - help a lot - you can easy see it yourself if you take your time and go Barren sky and charm Orthalian sentry (extremely high initial mental resistance but green con). The only way statistically meaningfull increase average duration of charm those beast is serious mental debuffing BEFORE charm Quality of charm ... self exlaining Level ratio - yep - thats the key Amount of damage mob take - irrelavant (dont affect charm) Lol you dont even understand fundamentals how spells like charm work in terms of resistance check There are 2 resistance check that goes on a) Initial resistance check - this the ONLY one type of resistance check that EVER was/is affected in any form by subj. Effect so minor then we are talking about anything that even conned and above that its not worth mention plus in RAID ZONE it have even wierd twist - more subj lead to faster charm brake.... Also initial resist check affected by level ratio and quality of charm BUT its capped by 95% aka - no matter what mob always have 5% chance to resist (even with -6000 to mental). b) Time based resistance check oh! here is interesting things come to play - with M charm resist check occure on more rare occasion and the ONLY factor that play role is "save roll" of mob vs. charm... How save roll is made? Well really simple baseline is resistance of mob ON THE MOMENT OF CHARM (that why so important debuff mob before charming) then that base resistance normalized on level ratio (quality of spell dont play role here ... suprised? - quality of spell affect only how often check been made). Anyway same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - ALWAYS there is 5% chance that mob will make successfull saving trow More over there is no plans what so ever change this fundamental mechanic how resist check work... Even if developers will introduce dependence of INITIAL resist check on casting skill it still wont do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for STABILITY of charm Oh btw speaking of history - only once upon time were actually items that increased damage of spell based on skill - wands that were droped from Archilich Udalan - they carried + class specific skills (like nocvigance for warlocks) but in worked in time then damage of spells were scaling with level of caster (and I kinda liked that) This post is very informative very straight to the point and encouraged me to test some things for myself! The sentries tanatus is talking about are the ones in front of vault i assumed at least! So here is my testing since i ussually go there and when soloing in barren sky i pickup one of those sentries as my pet! First of all b4 reading this post i never debuffed the mental resist check b4 charming i did think of it but just never seemed to do it cause i thought it wouldnt matter cause once charmed i thought it would recheck and reresist every once in a while for breaks and the debuff would be long gone ! Anwyays that was the first thing i tested i did 50 charm attempts on same mob (sentries) with adept 3 lvl 62 charm tho not master so that might affect my results a bit too! on 50 charm attempts i had only 2 resists wihtout debuffing and wiht debuffing only 1 resist! Now that was the first test which the debuffing only increased my effectiveness by a lil as in : 1. without debuffing 1% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm 2. with debuffing 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm Now after this i put my subj gear on (and yes i know the mob is green bare with me) i dont have that much subj gear but i can get to 400 so i consider the testing valid! 1. wihtout debuffing i had 1.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm 2. with debuffing again 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm Conclusion is that there isnt really much difference and the 1% to 1.5% might just be unlucky so cant really get a decent conclusion form that however here comes the good stuff! I used my low lvl charm also adept 3 for time saving and just sat there waiting for a break (wihtout the pet getting hit!!! in spell description it says that a bigger break occurs when yer pet gets hurt, ill get to that later) Anyways i was just waiting for charm breaks and at first wihtout subj gear and wihtout debuffs 1. no subj gear and no debuffs on initial charm: 25 attempts most lasted full duration but had some breaks on a few cases that lasted only 3 min or so so recharm and restarted timer about 3 times it didnt last full duration on green mob 22 times full duration! 2. with subj gear but not debuffing : 25 attempts again 3 breaks 3 without subj gear and with debuffing upfront b4 charming 25 attempts 2 breaks 4 subj gear and with debuffing upfront 25 attempts 1 break only rest lasted full duration! So even tho this testing i did was very minor and statistically not really admissable i still feel that a lot of what tanatus said is true and yes i learned something fomr his post too cause i never used to debuff b4 charming and it really did help and improved my gameplay too! Anyways my conclusion is that even tho on the initial charm casting subj and debuff doesnt do that much to prevent resists it does seem to help a bit (not too much since 25 isnt a lotta testing again) it does help with the periodic checks as tanatus has stated in his posts! Oh and one more thing i did the same thing for a yellow con mob in nizara and had aroudn the same results with just a few more initial resists and a few more breaks but similar overall since its yellow vs green mob! The others who have been badmouthing tanatus might think b4 they do so again he might sometimes spout some BS out there but he has provided me with a lotta info on my class from the moment i deleted my wizard and rerolled a chanter and if ya do wanna badmouth him do as tanatus says and spend a buncha hours like i did testing what he is trying to tell the community if ya dont believe him! And to Tanatus Thx again for yer insight but you might get better responses from people on these boards if ya would be a lil less abrasive as is stated and i fully agree with that in a previous post on this thread altough i do understand their responses getting out the worsed in you but same can be said about your initial post on this thread!

11-03-2006, 12:35 AM	#25
JackAll Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 282	Now THIS is what Im talking about. Thanks for the info

11-03-2006, 12:47 AM	#26
Roriondesexiest Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 581	JackAll wrote: Now THIS is what Im talking about. Thanks for the info Hey, I said the same thing. I just didn't do any actual testing to prove it __________________

11-03-2006, 01:01 AM	#27
stargazer5678 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 123	AdiX__Styxx__ wrote: Tanatus wrote: Jezz I hate then ppl start barking without actually testing thing THEMSELF like I normally do ... Once upon time - several months ago I did rather intensive testing various factors using various type of mobs (for pure time constrain purpose I used Dominate M1 instead of Domination M1). In a shot form results Subj don't help Int .... DO ... help (but we running at max int anyway so pointless) Initial resistance - help a lot - you can easy see it yourself if you take your time and go Barren sky and charm Orthalian sentry (extremely high initial mental resistance but green con). The only way statistically meaningfull increase average duration of charm those beast is serious mental debuffing BEFORE charm Quality of charm ... self exlaining Level ratio - yep - thats the key Amount of damage mob take - irrelavant (dont affect charm) Lol you dont even understand fundamentals how spells like charm work in terms of resistance check There are 2 resistance check that goes on a) Initial resistance check - this the ONLY one type of resistance check that EVER was/is affected in any form by subj. Effect so minor then we are talking about anything that even conned and above that its not worth mention plus in RAID ZONE it have even wierd twist - more subj lead to faster charm brake.... Also initial resist check affected by level ratio and quality of charm BUT its capped by 95% aka - no matter what mob always have 5% chance to resist (even with -6000 to mental). b) Time based resistance check oh! here is interesting things come to play - with M charm resist check occure on more rare occasion and the ONLY factor that play role is "save roll" of mob vs. charm... How save roll is made? Well really simple baseline is resistance of mob ON THE MOMENT OF CHARM (that why so important debuff mob before charming) then that base resistance normalized on level ratio (quality of spell dont play role here ... suprised? - quality of spell affect only how often check been made). Anyway same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - ALWAYS there is 5% chance that mob will make successfull saving trow More over there is no plans what so ever change this fundamental mechanic how resist check work... Even if developers will introduce dependence of INITIAL resist check on casting skill it still wont do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for STABILITY of charm Oh btw speaking of history - only once upon time were actually items that increased damage of spell based on skill - wands that were droped from Archilich Udalan - they carried + class specific skills (like nocvigance for warlocks) but in worked in time then damage of spells were scaling with level of caster (and I kinda liked that) This post is very informative very straight to the point and encouraged me to test some things for myself! The sentries tanatus is talking about are the ones in front of vault i assumed at least! So here is my testing since i ussually go there and when soloing in barren sky i pickup one of those sentries as my pet! First of all b4 reading this post i never debuffed the mental resist check b4 charming i did think of it but just never seemed to do it cause i thought it wouldnt matter cause once charmed i thought it would recheck and reresist every once in a while for breaks and the debuff would be long gone ! Anwyays that was the first thing i tested i did 50 charm attempts on same mob (sentries) with adept 3 lvl 62 charm tho not master so that might affect my results a bit too! on 50 charm attempts i had only 2 resists wihtout debuffing and wiht debuffing only 1 resist! Now that was the first test which the debuffing only increased my effectiveness by a lil as in : 1. without debuffing 1% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm 2. with debuffing 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm Now after this i put my subj gear on (and yes i know the mob is green bare with me) i dont have that much subj gear but i can get to 400 so i consider the testing valid! 1. wihtout debuffing i had 1.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm 2. with debuffing again 0.5% resists on 50 initial attempts to charm Conclusion is that there isnt really much difference and the 1% to 1.5% might just be unlucky so cant really get a decent conclusion form that however here comes the good stuff! I used my low lvl charm also adept 3 for time saving and just sat there waiting for a break (wihtout the pet getting hit!!! in spell description it says that a bigger break occurs when yer pet gets hurt, ill get to that later) Anyways i was just waiting for charm breaks and at first wihtout subj gear and wihtout debuffs 1. no subj gear and no debuffs on initial charm: 25 attempts most lasted full duration but had some breaks on a few cases that lasted only 3 min or so so recharm and restarted timer about 3 times it didnt last full duration on green mob 22 times full duration! 2. with subj gear but not debuffing : 25 attempts again 3 breaks 3 without subj gear and with debuffing upfront b4 charming 25 attempts 2 breaks 4 subj gear and with debuffing upfront 25 attempts 1 break only rest lasted full duration! So even tho this testing i did was very minor and statistically not really admissable i still feel that a lot of what tanatus said is true and yes i learned something fomr his post too cause i never used to debuff b4 charming and it really did help and improved my gameplay too! Anyways my conclusion is that even tho on the initial charm casting subj and debuff doesnt do that much to prevent resists it does seem to help a bit (not too much since 25 isnt a lotta testing again) it does help with the periodic checks as tanatus has stated in his posts! Oh and one more thing i did the same thing for a yellow con mob in nizara and had aroudn the same results with just a few more initial resists and a few more breaks but similar overall since its yellow vs green mob! The others who have been badmouthing tanatus might think b4 they do so again he might sometimes spout some BS out there but he has provided me with a lotta info on my class from the moment i deleted my wizard and rerolled a chanter and if ya do wanna badmouth him do as tanatus says and spend a buncha hours like i did testing what he is trying to tell the community if ya dont believe him! And to Tanatus Thx again for yer insight but you might get better responses from people on these boards if ya would be a lil less abrasive as is stated and i fully agree with that in a previous post on this thread altough i do understand their responses getting out the worsed in you but same can be said about your initial post on this thread! I am a newbie Coercer and found a lot of useful info on this forum. Many coercers share their experiences and that's great. That said I have a few points. 1. When tests are done testers have to use a large sample. In the post above I see numbers like 50 or even 25 attempts.. From statistical point of view that's not enough. Consider a sample size of 500 or more to be able to draw some conclusion. 2. It's interesting to learn about the mechanics of resists. It would be interesting to find out how Tanatus figured out what he posted about 2 checks. Also from what I know there is a chance to break charm when damage is taken. Is that true? If yes is it the same check as for the timed checks? Yasen, the newbie Coercer

11-03-2006, 03:19 AM	#28
AdiX__Styxx__ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 396	yea i know 25 and 50 as samples which i took arent really a good testing base but....i did state it in my post! altough it also does give somewhat of a conclusion even tho minor which i described! And for the when pet gets harmed break yea its in the description i believe ill check it again tonight but im sure there is a tiny chance whenever the pet takes damage that he will break (direct targeted damage)! But to do 500 tests i would love to see a sheet with tests ranging from green to yellow / orange altough can you imagine the timespan it takes to take these tests ? waiting for the charm duration? and using a lowby lvl charm doesnt really work since the resist rate will go up significantly cause of the outdated spell and to test as a lowby coercer on greens and orange also doesnt really give much input well some ofc but not much cause of the lower resists those mobs have vs t7 mobs and even t8 mobs! Also the gap of gear between lower tiers and t7 is significant (read subjugation) so i cant see how that will prove usefull for t7 coercer who try to figure stuff out! I know Tanatus does his tested quite extensively and i tried to do so too but just dont have the time so i set myself a base number to base my tests on 50 for greens and 25 for yellows and compare it somewhat! also note that my spell lvl was adept 3 not master yet /cry! But yes i agree

11-03-2006, 04:13 AM	#29
Alaeth Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 144	Regarding the break on damage issue, I have a feeling that's a holdover from the way charm used to work. There are plenty of examples of spell "flavor" descriptions not precisely matching actual effects, so usually it's better to look at the bulleted list of effects for a spell. If you check Possession, you'll see that it has an explicitly stated "1% chance to break on damage received" effect listed, while nothing of the sort appears on any charm spell.Of course, the recurring break chance isn't explicitly listed on charm spells either, and that definitely exists, so obviously the bulleted effect list isn't 100% accurate. Still, based on personal experience if nothing else, I can't say I've noticed that charm is any more likely to break when your pet is taking damage.

11-03-2006, 07:24 AM	#30
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Folks the only way skills will affect our casting ability if a) buffing disruption will actually equal to DPS buffing (personally I dont see this happend because wizards starts cry river about warlocks damage boost) b) buffing focus will start actually help against disrution (tough in this particular case I am not entierly sure that its already not working because subjectively then my focus approach to mark 500 I almost never get interupted) c) subjugation skill will start actually affect reoccuring resistance check in addition to initial resistance check or it all worthless d) ordination and minitration should actually carry bonus to buffs/healing But all above is required redo ALL casting mechanic .... no gona happend from what I heared from developers who playing coercers