Upcoming change to epic encounters...enchanters in general LU 24

[Barobra]

The next live update has changes that will affect the control utility of every class. It addresses Enchanter utility in group and raid settings, and diminished encounter difficulty in group settings by non-Enchanter control abilities.

 

We have been reviewing the impact that control spells have throughout the game. Here are some of the major issues that we identified and some details in how the next live update will address them:

 

Many Enchanter spells do not affect Epic encounters.

 

After the combat revamp, control spells were changed to not affect Epic targets across all spells. Enchanter classes were the most affected since a large portion of their spells became ineffective in raid settings. The next update looks at a balance between preserving the difficulty of raid encounters and allowing Enchanters to use more of their spells.

 

Changes: Enchanters will be able to use many of their control spells on Epic targets. This includes Mesmerize, Stun, Stifle and Daze states (Daze is the new name that replaces Pacify). Applying a control state on an Epic target has a reduced duration, and grants the Epic an immunity timer to that particular control state as a multiplier of the original control state’s duration. This compromise allows them to reduce the overall damage received by the raid.

 

Example: An Enchanter’s mesmerize spell line will have 1/3 the normal duration on an Epic target. A mesmerize spell with a 36 second duration would last for 12 seconds on that target. After the mesmerize expires on an Epic, the target is granted immunity to all mesmerize states 3x the original duration of the spell, which would be 108 seconds in this example.

 

The way that Stun sometimes ends before its full duration is confusing.

 

Different classes gain different types of control spells. In EQ2, until now, what many people would expect to be called a Mesmerize spell was presented as a “Stun that always breaks on damage.”

 

Changes: For all classes, we have separated Stun and Mesmerize into distinct effect types that behave in a way that should be clearer.

- "Mesmerize" effects always break when damage is received.
- "Stun" effects are now unbreakable and will always last for their full duration.

 

A number of Stun spells that would formerly have a chance to break have had their durations reduced, providing more dependable utility over slightly shorter durations.

 

Enchanter utility diminishes with increased group size.

 

By the time you have a full group, the combined abilities of the group members often provided enough control to chain-stun/control the primary target and reduce the threat it posed on the Fighter. An additional encounter on the Fighter did not pose much of a threat since the amount of damage that the Fighter received was already reduced from chain-stunning that went on with the first encounter. This made many group encounters trivial, especially after level 50 where all stun durations receive a small boost to duration.

 

Changes: Control durations or reuse timers are generally lowered across all non-enchanter classes, and are better balanced across subclass pairs than before. Some Stun effects have been replaced with Stifles and Dazes which are not used as often and do not completely incapacitate an enemy. An Enchanter’s ability to control will have more utility in group settings than it did before.

 

Example: abilities with Knockdown effects that stunned for 4 seconds have been reduced to 2.5 seconds.

 

Enchanter utility is too powerful in locking down multiple encounters.

 

Adding an Enchanter in a group greatly changes the way a group can handle very bad situations. In a controlled setting, Enchanters don’t get to use their control abilities often. In a setting with lots of wandering aggression, Enchanter utility in locking down multiple encounters is more powerful than it should be.

 

Changes: Area effect mesmerizations have an increased reuse timer and targets have greater resistability.

 

Example: Coercer’s Terrible Awe line of spells have a greater chance of being resisted and have a longer reuse timer than before. However, it is no longer restricted to a number of targets and will remove the target from area effects like a regular mesmerize.

 

Most of the changes from the control review will be available on a Test Server update scheduled for next week, and will move to the live servers with Live Update 24.

 

edit - sorry heres the link - http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=102219#M102219

Message Edited by Barobrain on 05-05-2006 07:58 AM

[dpizzle4]

I am faily happy to see this.  But u cant get too happy because what they say now wont make it into LU24 completely as they state it now.  I think they will give us a little more functionality, but i def dont know if they will go all the way to do all of these things.  It sounds faily promising, but with SOE you never know if you are gonna get what they say they are going to give you or their interpretation of it.  O well at least i can stifle epics now, that is exciting enough to me for now.Darkillusion Chronleaves aka Dankronic Chronleaves70 illusionist of KithicorProud member of Spite"Blaze Chronic Hard"

[Zebsen]

I'm actually curious to see how this plays out.  Other than every other class that gets nerfed hating us, this looks pretty positive for enchanters.

 

1/3 the duration with a recast timer based on the original duration seems a bit harsh though.  I can almost see very short duration AoE stuns as more viable for their interupt component than longer stuns that won't be recastable through most of the fight.  Or perhaps the longer version just before a mob fires off it's AoE.  I doubt anyone is going to want to take the chance that the stun will land and not be resisted though. 

 

Of course, the hardcore raiders have probably become so accustomed to not having stun/stiffle, that I'm not sure that anyone will even notice this other than us.

 

Also, I'm not sure what category the new KoS heroics will fall into.  My guess is that they will become "epics" since they appear that way anyway.

 

My thoughts,

Zebsen

 

 

[Pins]

I think this changes nothing to us.  In a raid with an Illusionist and a Coercer, if you ahve both neither of you will be changing your spell cycles.  Why?  Illusionists use Solar Shower for the stifle, Coercers use Sonic Boom for the stun, look at that, as the recast comes up, bam yout hit it again!  Nothing changes.

[Barobra]

Also a side note by Moorgard - Enchanters will be the only class that will be able to mez epics.

[Etillchou]

Nothing changes except we get what we wanted all the time. Okay it isn't as strong as we are against heroics now but admit.. If we have as much control over epics as we have over heroics then no raid is fun and everything is plain easy. That they finally give us something during raids is great.. (and it can be very handy for sure). The 1/3 timer etc is only on epics so we keep what we get against heroic groups. We get more. It isn't a big tradeoff. We keep the heroic power altho nerfed a little so we cant easily control 4 groups and we get control over epics..It makes the game more interesting in my opinion. It became to easy, for sure heroic encounters with all the stuns/stifles etc in the game. With or without a chanter it was too easy. Other classes could do our task as well.This is reversed now. We will again be the king and queen from crowd control. (figure out who's male and female, illu or coercer ) This is what we wanted.We dont want a pure dps role eventho some here do. We all knew that dps wasn't our thing from the start. You should have taken another mage class for dps. You wanted crowd control and thats what you'll get.That they nerf so many other classes.. bad.. yes.. but those classes shouldnt have had that many cc anyway in my opinion. They will keep the cc just shorter timers. And that for me is good. Makes the game harder again, more fun to play against heroics, more to do during raids.

[Barobra]

I agree I think its a step in the right direction. I think it needs some tweaking but everyone said they wanted a role in raids and I think this is the direction it needs to go.

[Melmoth1820]

Changes: For all classes, we have separated Stun and Mesmerize into distinct effect types that behave in a way that should be clearer.

- "Mesmerize" effects always break when damage is received.
- "Stun" effects are now unbreakable and will always last for their full duration.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Does this mean seperate immunity timers? (Please?) Or just that they've fixed their wording on the delves of spells?

 

Also, I wonder what spell effects are going to daze now...hopefully the lvl 40 pb aoe mez.

Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on 05-05-2006 12:43 PM

[Barobra]

This is something that has been rumored. You can definatley read into that fact.

[Celestian_]

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Example: Coercer’s Terrible Awe line of spells have a greater chance of being resisted and have a longer reuse timer than before. However, it is no longer restricted to a number of targets and will remove the target from area effects like a regular mesmerize.

---

This one part caught my eye and I am looking forward to it. AoE mez was great but playing in pickup groups were pretty useless cause almost every time it was broken. I just wish they'd make the melee guys blue abilities green!

[Zebsen]

Pinski wrote:

 

I think this changes nothing to us.  In a raid with an Illusionist and a Coercer, if you ahve both neither of you will be changing your spell cycles.  Why?  Illusionists use Solar Shower for the stifle, Coercers use Sonic Boom for the stun, look at that, as the recast comes up, bam yout hit it again!  Nothing changes.

 

---

 

Possibly.  I agree with this statement in your case - for those hardcore established raiders that have developed strategies to kill epics without stun and stiffle already.  For those of us more casual raiders that are still cutting our teeth on T7, it will become a more viable part of our strategy.  Will it save the day?  Doubtful.  Will it give me a little more variety to help keep the tank alive on raids that we struggle on?  I think so.

 

Zebsen

 

 

[Pins]

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Celestian_GC wrote:

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Example: Coercer’s Terrible Awe line of spells have a greater chance of being resisted and have a longer reuse timer than before. However, it is no longer restricted to a number of targets and will remove the target from area effects like a regular mesmerize.

---

This one part caught my eye and I am looking forward to it. AoE mez was great but playing in pickup groups were pretty useless cause almost every time it was broken. I just wish they'd make the melee guys blue abilities green!

---

Instead now when you re-apply your AoE Mez, guess what, it won't re-apply to all the mobs in the encounter because they're blocked by the prevent AoE, hrm, wait a second wasn't this tried already once before, and taken out because of exactly the reason I described?

Also, PBAoEs do not break mez unless you target the mob that is mezed.

[WAPCE]

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Barobrain wrote:Also a side note by Moorgard - Enchanters will be the only class that will be able to mez epics.

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Are we still going to have real epics and faux-epics, though? If they take away the faux-epics that can currently be mezzed/stunned/stifled, that seems like a loss, although a small one.

[WAPCE]

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Pinski wrote:

---

Celestian_GC wrote:

---

Example: Coercer’s Terrible Awe line of spells have a greater chance of being resisted and have a longer reuse timer than before. However, it is no longer restricted to a number of targets and will remove the target from area effects like a regular mesmerize.

---

This one part caught my eye and I am looking forward to it. AoE mez was great but playing in pickup groups were pretty useless cause almost every time it was broken. I just wish they'd make the melee guys blue abilities green!

---

Instead now when you re-apply your AoE Mez, guess what, it won't re-apply to all the mobs in the encounter because they're blocked by the prevent AoE, hrm, wait a second wasn't this tried already once before, and taken out because of exactly the reason I described?

Also, PBAoEs do not break mez unless you target the mob that is mezed.

---

I'm under the impression that part of the AoE mezz nerf includes increasing the recast so that re-applying isn't an option anyway. Well, for one chanter, anyway.

[Pins]

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WAPCE wrote:

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Barobrain wrote:
Also a side note by Moorgard - Enchanters will be the only class that will be able to mez epics.

---

Are we still going to have real epics and faux-epics, though? If they take away the faux-epics that can currently be mezzed/stunned/stifled, that seems like a loss, although a small one.

---

They aren't "faux-epics," they're just heroics in an epic encounter.  Which is the way they will remain I bet.  Though as we go on, heroics in an epic encounter are dying off anyway.

[auk]

What ever happened to one encounter = one encounter, no matter how many mobs are in the encounter? I don't like the AE mez nerf one bit, and I just don't understand Lockeye's reasons for thinking it is overpowered. I didn't when it was nerfed the first time, and I still don't.

[Barobra]

I am not understanding the AOE mez nerf either. I don't think it was that powerful to begin with. I mean with it and 10 second recast you could lock down 2 multi-mob encounters but anymore then that was a challenge.

[Celestian_]

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Pinski wrote:

Instead now when you re-apply your AoE Mez, guess what, it won't re-apply to all the mobs in the encounter because they're blocked by the prevent AoE, hrm, wait a second wasn't this tried already once before, and taken out because of exactly the reason I described?

Also, PBAoEs do not break mez unless you target the mob that is mezed.

---

Well, I can't say a re-apply bug will be a problem. If the spell recycle is longer than the duration of the spell it probably won't be an issue.I've seen blue aoes from melee folks break AoE mez's when they are only targeting the MT's target. Always happens to me, always. If I use single target mez it'll break them too. Blue aoes are not encounter locked, only the greens are. I am talking about the AoE mez here, not the single target mez which is not broken by green AoEs from mages/etc unless they target that single target mez'd creature.

[Belizarius]

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Celestian_GC wrote:

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Pinski wrote:

Instead now when you re-apply your AoE Mez, guess what, it won't re-apply to all the mobs in the encounter because they're blocked by the prevent AoE, hrm, wait a second wasn't this tried already once before, and taken out because of exactly the reason I described?

Also, PBAoEs do not break mez unless you target the mob that is mezed.

---

Well, I can't say a re-apply bug will be a problem. If the spell recycle is longer than the duration of the spell it probably won't be an issue.

I've seen blue aoes from melee folks break AoE mez's when they are only targeting the MT's target. Always happens to me, always. If I use single target mez it'll break them too. Blue aoes are not encounter locked, only the greens are. I am talking about the AoE mez here, not the single target mez which is not broken by green AoEs from mages/etc unless they target that single target mez'd creature.

---

Oh Pinski, you know better than that!

PBAE will break our encounter mez, but won't break single target mez unless directly targeted.

Many Enchanter spells do not affect Epic encounters.

Indeed.  I will now be able to stun an epic for 10% of the fight, and stifle it for 10% of the fight, which is not too bad. I'm sort of happy with this one.  I will also be able to mez an epic briefly, which might have some use on an initial pull.  What I want to know is, what will the other enchanter(s) on the raid be doing?  Shall we draw straws to see who's turn it is to stun?  This mechanic works ok for single groups but has problems with a 24 character raid force.

The way that Stun sometimes ends before its full duration is confusing.

Umm, it may have confused the noobs, the rest of us figured it out already by reading the spell descriptions.  This is not really a change at all, other than in naming conventions.  Red herring imho.

Enchanter utility diminishes with increased group size.

Well, umm, isn't that sort of true of every class?  It may well be that other classes control abilities were overpowered anyway and needed to be adjusted.  But that's not something 'chanters should be taking the blame for.  I don't really see this as part of a 'chanter revamp', it's a game revamp.

Enchanter utility is too powerful in locking down multiple encounters.

Pfffffffffft.  Rubbish.  We rarely get to do this anyway.  When it does happen, it's what we expected to be able to do when we chose the class.  And actually if you aggro too many encounters, our CC is completely FUBARed because of 'cannot engage target' issues.  Our multiple encounter CC needs fixing, not nerfing.

[Barobra]

I will take draw straws for $1000 Alex.

[Gungo]

hehe i already posted coercers and illusinist need thier own seperate immunites.

[Manyak]

mezz will probably NOT be as useful on the initial pull as you think.....

 

plenty and plenty of debuffs in the game have damage attached to them....not to mention all the mages and healers that might have spell procs....

 

ur best bet is to do it the way its done now, with a monk tsunami pull

[Bawang]

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Enchanter utility is too powerful in locking down multiple encounters.

 

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This one scared me a little when I read it.  I thought they were about to nerf how many mobs you'd be able to have mezzed at the same time.  A couple of days ago in SoS, everyone in my group got wiped except for me.  I was able to hold 3 orange ^^^ mobs mezzed for quite a bit while the rest of the group revived and came back to kill them.  For once in my EQ2 career I felt powerful .

At any rate, I'm happy that FINALLY they're taking a look at our problems and making a serious attempt at a compromise which, while not letting us use our abilities to anything near their full capacity on epics (boy is that an understatement or what), will nevertheless give us SOMETHING positive to contribute to a raid.

I agree the AOE mez wasn't overpowered at all.  That mez was so breakable it could make you cry.  The idea that it will now work like a single target mez is intriguing although the issue of immunity timers on those mobs doesn't seem to be clear. 

We'll see.  Overall I'm glad to see these changes coming although I'm keeping my fingers crossed as to how they get finally implemented.

Edit: Having your mez stick for 1/3 of the full duration on epics makes me glad I made my 52 mez my M2 choice.  This means I'll be able to keep an epic mezzed for 15 seconds.  Something to consider for those who are about to make that choice.

Bawango

62 illusionist - Crushbone

 

Message Edited by Bawang on 05-06-2006 05:12 PM

[Manyak]

<---would never, ever, make the same tier mezz master 2. its only what, a 2% improvement in the resistance rate over master 1? plus, if it resists, the immunity timer doesnt start, and if it lands, it sticks at the full duration anyway. no need for it at all imo.

[Pins]

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DaMutation wrote:

<---would never, ever, make the same tier mezz master 2. its only what, a 2% improvement in the resistance rate over master 1? plus, if it resists, the immunity timer doesnt start, and if it lands, it sticks at the full duration anyway. no need for it at all imo.

---

Worse, 1% improvement, 31% instead of 30%.

[Mihos]

Non-damage PBAOE like taunts and debuffs DO break mez if the person casting has proc items or buffs that proc (like dynism).   There are so many procing items, thats its a pretty regular thing now days.

Mihos

[Lolthinae]

ARGGGGGGG - every time I try to post someting I get "an invalid HTLM something" was found in the text, and loose the whole thing!!!

 

Giving up - maybe that's what they want, keep us all muted by not allowing us to post?????

[Lolthinae]

So, what will these changes bring?

Solo. I can’t se anything that will change my solo ability, or my strategy. Being able to lock down more than 4 mobs in one encounter with my group mezz might be a benefit, but I can’t remember when I last saw a non-raid encounter with more than 4 mobs. Even if the reuse timer on my group mezz ends up being longer than the time the mobs are mezzed, it will change little. If I really want to lock down a group of mobs when I solo, I hit them with single target mezzes after the initial group mezz. Having the group mezzed mobs being immune to AOE will not change anything, but it will affect some coercers who use group mezz – group nuke – group mezz – etc., as their main strategy against multiple-mob encounters. I see no changes to our stuns or stifles, but reduced stun duration for all other classes will affect their solo ability, probably not as much as they fear, but to some degree they will be affected.

Groups. I think few of us have ever complained about our role or contribution in groups (except for a few encounters in KoS). Most of us have no problems getting groups, we know how much we can contribute, and so do those who are aware of what we can do. Reducing stun duration for a number of classes is gonna change little here. A balanced group will still be able to plough through most encounters easily, with or without a chanter, including managing a few adds. Small or odd groups will be able to do the same with a bit more care, just like it is today. In most situations, the option of “just make’em dead” is just as good, or better, than applying any kind of cc. So, our “desirability” in groups is not gonna change, but then again, our “desirability” is good enough as it is.

Raids. This is where it becomes more complicated, and I’ll break this section down into mezz, stifle, and stun:

Mezz. With a 50 secs mezz, we will be able to mezz an epic mob for 17 secs every 2:30 mins. Mezz, as such, only really makes sense if you are able to keep a mob mezzed as long as it’s needed. Being able to mezz a mob for a few secs every other minute is not gonna change any raid strategies, and it’s not gonna help in an emergency either. If that emergency arises the mob will be dotted to high heaven and the chanter will be dead before the mezz ever has a chance to stick. Mezz on the pull and have everybody debuff before engaging – hhmmm…? Possibly, but it will require a lot of discipline with gear and buffs that proc on casting, and might reduce both defense and DPS for a few after the mezz breaks because people are buffing each other and fiddling around with changing gear after debuffing the mob.

Stifle. Our longest stifle is 12 secs, so we can keep an epic stifled for 4 secs every 0:36 mins. I guess that might reduce the damage output a bit, but since most epics rely upon innate abilities that are not affected by stifle, it’s not gonna be much. Back in t5, and before the combat revamp, stifling was a 2-edged sword. If you could perma-stifle a mob, great, but if not, all you did was to delay its casting, making timed jousting so much more difficult. Stifling a mob just before it was about to cast its 30-secs AOE (or whatever the timer was), didn’t mean it would skip that AOE, just delay it till the stifle wore off. Simply jousting and avoiding an AOE you know is about to hit will still be the best option I think.

Stuns. We have a group stun that lasts 4 secs and a single target one that lasts for 10 secs. The first one has a casting time of 0.9 secs (without any AA or buff modifications), the 2nd one takes 1.5 secs to cast (as far as I remember). So, in a raid we can stun a mob for 1 sec every 12 secs, or for 3 secs every 0:30 mins. The quick 1 sec stun might be useful in emergencies, like when someone pulls agro and the mob goes on a rampage among the healers and mages. It might be just enough to stop it in its track and give the MT a chance to get agro back, provided the mob is still in MT range. Now, an epic mob can move a loooong way in 0.9 secs, so reducing cast time will be key here (AGI AA line comes to mind), and we’ll need to be really quick on the trigger. The longer stun will always take too long to cast in such an emergency. It can be used to reduce damage by a bit, but at the cost of triggering stun immunity for 30 secs – leaving us with no emergency stun.

In summary:

Solo: minimal changes for chanters – considerable nerf for other classes

Group: minimal changes for chanters or anybody else

Raid: questionable improvements for chanters – no changes for anybody else

I am as happy as anybody else to see that we are finally getting some attention, it’s been a long, long wait. I am, however, not sure that what’s on the table will cut the cake. But, then again, we’ve seen many changes announced and introduced on test or beta, just to have them completely changed within 24 hours of going live, so who knows what we’ll end up with. :smileywink:

Message Edited by Lolthinae on 05-07-2006 01:53 PM

[Bawang]

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DaMutation wrote:

<---would never, ever, make the same tier mezz master 2. its only what, a 2% improvement in the resistance rate over master 1? plus, if it resists, the immunity timer doesnt start, and if it lands, it sticks at the full duration anyway. no need for it at all imo.

---

To understand why I did it, just go and read my post on the impossibility of getting master spells on my server.  I check the broker at least twice a day and never find the masters I want on sale.  I'm glad you're apparently having better luck.  Lately I've started to pay more attention to the high level channel as some people who are selling master choose that route rather than put then on the broker.

[Barobra]

I have always found masters personally. Its just having the bank roll to actually buy them.

 

Also, to add some toughts....

 

Was doing labs last night and was really thinking that some of those named encounters would really be easier if we could mez some of their adds or even the named for 25 seconds or so. I mean they are doable but so much easier if you could STOP their DPS.

 

One good example is the 3 named you encounter in there (all part of one encounter I forget there names). If you could stop 2 for a little bit it would really help. I mean its nothing earth shattering or OMG YOU GUYS ROXORZ MY BOXORZ. But it definatley is a good strategy to make things smoother.

 

I really like the idea we maybe able to help in encounters like these.

 

Again yes its not absolutely needed but cmon this is something alot of enchanters have been asking for....

Message Edited by Barobrain on 05-08-2006 06:50 AM