Maby wizards are not so broken?

Beghard · 06-07-2005, 04:07 AM

Do you remember the god ol days when they first upgreaded the DMG for Freez? It was back when i had arly begun to explor Zek. I was pleased with the increace in dmg i was doing. Then I got Blazing Intimidation and was mad that it wouldnt land on anything. After i lvled a bit however BI startd to land on more mobs, thatwas nice.

What if the reason Ice Comet doesnt land on any raid mobs is because at lvl50 we are not good nuff at it to land it on most mobs just like it was wtih BI?

Sure that would suck because it would mean we are screwed utill the lvl cap is raised with the expansion, but it would also indicate that IC is in fact working perfectly. Alot of spells dont work well when we first learn them.

But that still leave the question of why there is no msg about it being resisted when cast on certain raid mobs:robotindifferent:

Message Edited by Beghard on 06-06-2005 05:08 PM

Tabemo · 06-07-2005, 07:44 AM

We're not complaining about it being resisted a lot. We're talking about the your last sentence, where more than half the 50+ raid mobs are "immune" to cold. aka none of the cold spells do any damage to the mob. You get the message saying it hits, but there's no damage output. Try any of your ice spells on King Zalak, Overlord Oxulius, any form of Vox, and (I think) Arch Lich and see for yourself.

La Trog · 06-07-2005, 09:03 PM

but maybe wizards are broken ... you're right in not taking lvl 50 as an absolute, as the game wil evolve again. But in this evolution process we have to take in account an average range of levels to make useful statistics (something like 48-52 when you talk about lvl 50) and compare these to other classes' . So when I consider it is not a limit, I must also consider that the game has to be balanced at each levels (or in a very tight range of lvl), or at least must try to. I have a warlock friend with whom I play often, I always have 5 levels more from him now I'm a wizzie 40, and he is 35 He get the same DPS as me (and often get the aggro), on the same given creature, and lose something like 10% less mana (I use combatstats), and this is like this since I am 25. I could easily accept that fact and be a very happy player, if he only had a 2 or 3 lvls difference from me, but not with a difference of 5 levels. Maybe I don't know how to play my class, but as a most solo character, I learned some ways in optimizing DPS... Maybe he knows very well how to play his class (sure he does SMILEY

), but I saw the same results with most warlocks, and some didn't really seem to optimize DPS. And seeing all the posts here, i am not alone. If I can observe that unbalance during 15 levels, and others do for higher levels, we can imagine without insane thoughts that there is a problem. Another strange thing is that warlock subclass forums are very dull comparing to wizard one, most posts talk about anything else but damage output. Of course, because they are satisfied with it (not always thought, some warlocks want more SMILEY

), just try to ask them if they want to exchange damage outputs with wizards. Wizard forum is totally polluted by damage output concerns. And we cannot say all of these posts are dumb. Another thought: If IC will become very useful, that's a very good point for wizzies, but what if warlock's big nukes evolve as well ? We'll have the same unbalance issues, raid resistances or not...

Alfgand · 06-07-2005, 09:31 PM

Another strange thing is that warlock subclass forums are very dull comparing to wizard one, most posts talk about anything else but damage output.

Yep, many are afraid to discuss it in fear of nerfing.

But I have read a few posts taking about how much greater their DPS is than us. A few brave, wise Warlocks do speak up from time to time.

My hat is off to them.

Lady Uaelr · 06-08-2005, 09:46 PM

We have to wait.

Moorgard stated everything is being looked at. Once the major changes occur everyone can sit down and decide if this is the game for them.

I have been through this entire dilemma and I decided not to post any longer about DPS difference-- everyone know it exists.

Just sit patiently and wait for the change. If it is not to your liking then cancel your account.

That is what I plan to do.

adamflanagan · 06-08-2005, 10:06 PM

Lady Uaelrea wrote:
We have to wait.

Moorgard stated everything is being looked at. Once the major changes occur everyone can sit down and decide if this is the game for them.

I have been through this entire dilemma and I decided not to post any longer about DPS difference-- everyone know it exists.

Just sit patiently and wait for the change. If it is not to your liking then cancel your account.

That is what I plan to do.

completely agree, we just need to be patient. if wizards are completely screwed after the balancing ill just switch to my alt.

Message Edited by adamflanagan on 06-08-2005 07:09 PM

Stavenh · 06-08-2005, 10:07 PM

Be ready for the back lash from warlocks blaming wizards for less DPS when the changes come through. In fact, any class that gets thier DPS adjusted down, will blame wizards. Why, it's all so many of you cry about. "I should have the highest DPS!" This means, those that don't like the DPS of fighters and scouts, those two classes will think they got nerfed solely so wizards can have higher DPS.The more you complain and compare yourselves to others, the more you dig your own grave.

La Trog · 06-09-2005, 01:03 AM

sorry my post may sound harsh, i only play since 5 months and read the forums since only 3 months, as i don't see anything change since or any acceptable answer from SoE (and don't have the time to read a couple 17-pages thread, sorry again), i was really thinking about cancelling my account, as this game is a lot of investment in terms of time and money, that you don't have not to enjoy it (or feel lessened) while playing. I really hope that willl be fixed ([expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], my warlock friend just got nil distortion, and make double the damage i do for 30 power less, 4 lvl below me SMILEY

) i'll keep my account it for 1 or 2 months (I won't wait for an extension for this, this is in-game issue, not a malus you have to pay for being fixed) , and if things don't evolve, i'll go elsewhere, as I don't want to play another class than wizard (yes i'm monomaniac, but such games allows you to be SMILEY

), and don't want to be gimped and pay for it.

Tar~Palantir · 06-12-2005, 10:56 PM

Stavenham wrote:
Be ready for the back lash from warlocks blaming wizards for less DPS when the changes come through. In fact, any class that gets thier DPS adjusted down, will blame wizards. Why, it's all so many of you cry about. "I should have the highest DPS!" This means, those that don't like the DPS of fighters and scouts, those two classes will think they got nerfed solely so wizards can have higher DPS.

The more you complain and compare yourselves to others, the more you dig your own grave.

The can scream foul but when my spells do Holy Hell than I will be justified even if the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing and moaning moved mountains...

Basically, i really could care less if other classes moaned and groanded that wizards are the cause of all their problems. When mobs wither in minutes those people will be forced to shut up so the wizard will stay in the group. Also, I hope the dmg changes shut the conceited warlocks up, or atleast force a change of tune.

ailees · 06-13-2005, 09:41 AM

Wizards are NOT broken if you are not a raider. I'm 50, got all my main damage spells at adept3, and lots of buff as well. Yesterday I went with 4 friends in Nektropos castle 2. Tank was sticking at mobs like glue, and cleric was very good at healing, this is important when you really cast, ice comet can be deadly (for the wizz SMILEY

) I was very happy debuffing all mobs, casting ice comet, immolation, ball of flame. With only 5 (without raid equipment, look at my sig) we were not sure we could take the lord. We did, I was using 3 debuff, cani, IC and immo, giving mana to healer and tank. When we finished him, we all were OOP and my health was low. But I was happy. .. Now I understand that, if I were a raider, and I will be soon, having all big mobs resist >80% of my spells (debuf or damage) is not fun at all. There is a list somewhere of all end mobs, and their resist list is impressive SMILEY

If I suddenly stop being a really nice fighter good with damages AND utilities and can only cast 1 spell on me to get mana, and 2 on healer or tank to give power, and nothing else, what pleasure can I have ? P.S. this reminds me of the big crisis in EQ1 when mages were just making Rods for mana, putting them on the ground for all other users and doing nothing more all raid long. I never saw something more boring than that !

Message Edited by ailees on 06-12-2005 10:45 PM

Skwor · 06-14-2005, 01:30 AM

Like so many you have overlooked so much ailees. I will just ask you to look at casting efficiency. Warlocks are better at nearly 2 to 1. So raider or not, yes wizards are at a disadvantage. There are many other things though, just review the posts made with an honest critical eye.

ailees · 06-14-2005, 01:52 PM

I already read them ALL. Now what do you call objectivity ? I have less DPS, much more utility, and i ENJOY it. That's pure subjectivity. If you want to be pure DPS, and ONLY that, go warlock, reroll. I'm almost ready to bet wizz will never be the top damagers (but of course I can be wrong) I'm happy with my wizard who can be the dorsal spine of a group with tons of utility. My whole group can take more risks, because I'm able to feed both tank and cleric, or evac if needed. I can duo with a cleric who knows that I will root all mobs if we are in trouble. I am a bad soloer, I know that (as a player I mean, not the character) but I don't care, that's not my cup of tea. I'm a good team member, and I enjoy that. I would rather have TP than more damages (hehe... sorry, that's my opinion.. not god's truth) That's my way of playing. I admit big raid mobs are a problem, but I still need to meet one SMILEY

in fact, to be honest, well, I did, but we wiped SMILEY

Message Edited by ailees on 06-14-2005 02:59 AM

Skwor · 06-15-2005, 12:31 AM

Well I can see this is all about opinion. I would say most seem to fall on the side that wizards have very little useful utility (which I agree with). Also Moorgard has stated "Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another." See the post linked to the quote. So it's fair to say and request that warlocks and wizards be equivalent (not exactly equal but comparable). Nowhere has an SOE rep stated or even hinted a wizard was more the "utility class." They are more likened to opposite sides of a coin, with subtle differences but worth the same. This easily translates to DPS and efficiency which currently there is a disparity.

So what we have here are players asking for the advertised merchandise which is a comparable wizard/warlock combination. Hardly an unfair request for anyone to make (imho).

Tar~Palantir · 06-15-2005, 12:55 AM

Skwor beat me to quoting moorguard. As a sorcerer, OUR MAIN UTILITY IS OUR DPS . Now there is really not much explaining. Since, sorcerer utility is the DPS, then we wizards lose out on raw DPS, and thus our utility is lower.

ailees · 06-15-2005, 09:44 AM

please, hawling like that is not polite, and very aggresive. I already read that 100 times. YES THEY SAID IT. I understand your point of view, I admit that this was not what was said at the begining. I've been playing in Internet games for more than 10 years now, I know that there is a big diference between the writen description and the reality. I am happy with my character, and I would like you to allow me to stay like that. If you cannot understand and admit that I (and some others) have another idea of wizard, this is your problem. Send mails to SOE till they change it, but don't howl at me, thank you.

Tar~Palantir · 06-15-2005, 10:05 PM

OH start making it out like I am against you. People kkeep trying to say that 7-10 buff/miscellaneous spells justify that we do half-2/3 the damage of warlocks(assuming we both have the same spell grade...ie adept I of a wizard vs adept I warlock.)

adamflanagan · 06-16-2005, 12:14 AM

Tar~Palantir wrote:
OH start making it out like I am against you. People kkeep trying to say that 7-10 buff/miscellaneous spells justify that we do half-2/3 the damage of warlocks(assuming we both have the same spell grade...ie adept I of a wizard vs adept I warlock.)

your original point was perfectly valid and i agree with you about it. however the way you put it across (huge bold letters) is rather agressive

Tar~Palantir · 06-16-2005, 08:50 PM

I am trying to drill into some of these people that utility for sorcerer types is not the same as bard utility.

06-07-2005, 04:07 AM	#1
Beghard Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 363	Do you remember the god ol days when they first upgreaded the DMG for Freez? It was back when i had arly begun to explor Zek. I was pleased with the increace in dmg i was doing. Then I got Blazing Intimidation and was mad that it wouldnt land on anything. After i lvled a bit however BI startd to land on more mobs, thatwas nice. What if the reason Ice Comet doesnt land on any raid mobs is because at lvl50 we are not good nuff at it to land it on most mobs just like it was wtih BI? Sure that would suck because it would mean we are screwed utill the lvl cap is raised with the expansion, but it would also indicate that IC is in fact working perfectly. Alot of spells dont work well when we first learn them. But that still leave the question of why there is no msg about it being resisted when cast on certain raid mobs:robotindifferent: Message Edited by Beghard on 06-06-2005 05:08 PM __________________

06-07-2005, 07:44 AM	#2
Tabemo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 68	We're not complaining about it being resisted a lot. We're talking about the your last sentence, where more than half the 50+ raid mobs are "immune" to cold. aka none of the cold spells do any damage to the mob. You get the message saying it hits, but there's no damage output. Try any of your ice spells on King Zalak, Overlord Oxulius, any form of Vox, and (I think) Arch Lich and see for yourself. __________________ Hibani Mandingosauce - Level 50 Erudite Wizard A Hero of Kugup Trouser - 27 Iksar Warden Unrest Server Vagabonds

06-07-2005, 09:03 PM	#3
La Trog Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17	but maybe wizards are broken ... you're right in not taking lvl 50 as an absolute, as the game wil evolve again. But in this evolution process we have to take in account an average range of levels to make useful statistics (something like 48-52 when you talk about lvl 50) and compare these to other classes' . So when I consider it is not a limit, I must also consider that the game has to be balanced at each levels (or in a very tight range of lvl), or at least must try to. I have a warlock friend with whom I play often, I always have 5 levels more from him now I'm a wizzie 40, and he is 35 He get the same DPS as me (and often get the aggro), on the same given creature, and lose something like 10% less mana (I use combatstats), and this is like this since I am 25. I could easily accept that fact and be a very happy player, if he only had a 2 or 3 lvls difference from me, but not with a difference of 5 levels. Maybe I don't know how to play my class, but as a most solo character, I learned some ways in optimizing DPS... Maybe he knows very well how to play his class (sure he does ), but I saw the same results with most warlocks, and some didn't really seem to optimize DPS. And seeing all the posts here, i am not alone. If I can observe that unbalance during 15 levels, and others do for higher levels, we can imagine without insane thoughts that there is a problem. Another strange thing is that warlock subclass forums are very dull comparing to wizard one, most posts talk about anything else but damage output. Of course, because they are satisfied with it (not always thought, some warlocks want more ), just try to ask them if they want to exchange damage outputs with wizards. Wizard forum is totally polluted by damage output concerns. And we cannot say all of these posts are dumb. Another thought: If IC will become very useful, that's a very good point for wizzies, but what if warlock's big nukes evolve as well ? We'll have the same unbalance issues, raid resistances or not...

06-07-2005, 09:31 PM	#4
Alfgand Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 157	Another strange thing is that warlock subclass forums are very dull comparing to wizard one, most posts talk about anything else but damage output. Yep, many are afraid to discuss it in fear of nerfing. But I have read a few posts taking about how much greater their DPS is than us. A few brave, wise Warlocks do speak up from time to time. My hat is off to them. __________________

06-08-2005, 10:06 PM	#6
adamflanagan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Lady Uaelrea wrote: We have to wait. Moorgard stated everything is being looked at. Once the major changes occur everyone can sit down and decide if this is the game for them. I have been through this entire dilemma and I decided not to post any longer about DPS difference-- everyone know it exists. Just sit patiently and wait for the change. If it is not to your liking then cancel your account. That is what I plan to do. completely agree, we just need to be patient. if wizards are completely screwed after the balancing ill just switch to my alt. Message Edited by adamflanagan on 06-08-2005 07:09 PM

06-08-2005, 09:46 PM	#5
Lady Uaelr General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 476	We have to wait. Moorgard stated everything is being looked at. Once the major changes occur everyone can sit down and decide if this is the game for them. I have been through this entire dilemma and I decided not to post any longer about DPS difference-- everyone know it exists. Just sit patiently and wait for the change. If it is not to your liking then cancel your account. That is what I plan to do.

06-08-2005, 10:07 PM	#7
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	Be ready for the back lash from warlocks blaming wizards for less DPS when the changes come through. In fact, any class that gets thier DPS adjusted down, will blame wizards. Why, it's all so many of you cry about. "I should have the highest DPS!" This means, those that don't like the DPS of fighters and scouts, those two classes will think they got nerfed solely so wizards can have higher DPS.The more you complain and compare yourselves to others, the more you dig your own grave.

06-09-2005, 01:03 AM	#8
La Trog Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17	sorry my post may sound harsh, i only play since 5 months and read the forums since only 3 months, as i don't see anything change since or any acceptable answer from SoE (and don't have the time to read a couple 17-pages thread, sorry again), i was really thinking about cancelling my account, as this game is a lot of investment in terms of time and money, that you don't have not to enjoy it (or feel lessened) while playing. I really hope that willl be fixed ([expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], my warlock friend just got nil distortion, and make double the damage i do for 30 power less, 4 lvl below me ) i'll keep my account it for 1 or 2 months (I won't wait for an extension for this, this is in-game issue, not a malus you have to pay for being fixed) , and if things don't evolve, i'll go elsewhere, as I don't want to play another class than wizard (yes i'm monomaniac, but such games allows you to be ), and don't want to be gimped and pay for it.

06-12-2005, 10:56 PM	#9
Tar~Palantir Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Stavenham wrote: Be ready for the back lash from warlocks blaming wizards for less DPS when the changes come through. In fact, any class that gets thier DPS adjusted down, will blame wizards. Why, it's all so many of you cry about. "I should have the highest DPS!" This means, those that don't like the DPS of fighters and scouts, those two classes will think they got nerfed solely so wizards can have higher DPS. The more you complain and compare yourselves to others, the more you dig your own grave. The can scream foul but when my spells do Holy Hell than I will be justified even if the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing and moaning moved mountains... Basically, i really could care less if other classes moaned and groanded that wizards are the cause of all their problems. When mobs wither in minutes those people will be forced to shut up so the wizard will stay in the group. Also, I hope the dmg changes shut the conceited warlocks up, or atleast force a change of tune. __________________ Echoes of Fadywer: Finally an expansion that doesn't create a rat race for max level.

06-13-2005, 09:41 AM	#10
ailees Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Toulouse (France) Posts: 553	Wizards are NOT broken if you are not a raider. I'm 50, got all my main damage spells at adept3, and lots of buff as well. Yesterday I went with 4 friends in Nektropos castle 2. Tank was sticking at mobs like glue, and cleric was very good at healing, this is important when you really cast, ice comet can be deadly (for the wizz ) I was very happy debuffing all mobs, casting ice comet, immolation, ball of flame. With only 5 (without raid equipment, look at my sig) we were not sure we could take the lord. We did, I was using 3 debuff, cani, IC and immo, giving mana to healer and tank. When we finished him, we all were OOP and my health was low. But I was happy. .. Now I understand that, if I were a raider, and I will be soon, having all big mobs resist >80% of my spells (debuf or damage) is not fun at all. There is a list somewhere of all end mobs, and their resist list is impressive If I suddenly stop being a really nice fighter good with damages AND utilities and can only cast 1 spell on me to get mana, and 2 on healer or tank to give power, and nothing else, what pleasure can I have ? P.S. this reminds me of the big crisis in EQ1 when mages were just making Rods for mana, putting them on the ground for all other users and doing nothing more all raid long. I never saw something more boring than that ! Message Edited by ailees on 06-12-2005 10:45 PM __________________

06-14-2005, 01:30 AM	#11
Skwor Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 338	Like so many you have overlooked so much ailees. I will just ask you to look at casting efficiency. Warlocks are better at nearly 2 to 1. So raider or not, yes wizards are at a disadvantage. There are many other things though, just review the posts made with an honest critical eye.

06-14-2005, 01:52 PM	#12
ailees Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Toulouse (France) Posts: 553	I already read them ALL. Now what do you call objectivity ? I have less DPS, much more utility, and i ENJOY it. That's pure subjectivity. If you want to be pure DPS, and ONLY that, go warlock, reroll. I'm almost ready to bet wizz will never be the top damagers (but of course I can be wrong) I'm happy with my wizard who can be the dorsal spine of a group with tons of utility. My whole group can take more risks, because I'm able to feed both tank and cleric, or evac if needed. I can duo with a cleric who knows that I will root all mobs if we are in trouble. I am a bad soloer, I know that (as a player I mean, not the character) but I don't care, that's not my cup of tea. I'm a good team member, and I enjoy that. I would rather have TP than more damages (hehe... sorry, that's my opinion.. not god's truth) That's my way of playing. I admit big raid mobs are a problem, but I still need to meet one in fact, to be honest, well, I did, but we wiped Message Edited by ailees on 06-14-2005 02:59 AM __________________

06-15-2005, 12:31 AM	#13
Skwor Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 338	Well I can see this is all about opinion. I would say most seem to fall on the side that wizards have very little useful utility (which I agree with). Also Moorgard has stated "Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another." See the post linked to the quote. So it's fair to say and request that warlocks and wizards be equivalent (not exactly equal but comparable). Nowhere has an SOE rep stated or even hinted a wizard was more the "utility class." They are more likened to opposite sides of a coin, with subtle differences but worth the same. This easily translates to DPS and efficiency which currently there is a disparity. So what we have here are players asking for the advertised merchandise which is a comparable wizard/warlock combination. Hardly an unfair request for anyone to make (imho).

06-15-2005, 12:55 AM	#14
Tar~Palantir Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Skwor beat me to quoting moorguard. As a sorcerer, OUR MAIN UTILITY IS OUR DPS . Now there is really not much explaining. Since, sorcerer utility is the DPS, then we wizards lose out on raw DPS, and thus our utility is lower. __________________ Echoes of Fadywer: Finally an expansion that doesn't create a rat race for max level.

06-15-2005, 09:44 AM	#15
ailees Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Toulouse (France) Posts: 553	please, hawling like that is not polite, and very aggresive. I already read that 100 times. YES THEY SAID IT. I understand your point of view, I admit that this was not what was said at the begining. I've been playing in Internet games for more than 10 years now, I know that there is a big diference between the writen description and the reality. I am happy with my character, and I would like you to allow me to stay like that. If you cannot understand and admit that I (and some others) have another idea of wizard, this is your problem. Send mails to SOE till they change it, but don't howl at me, thank you. __________________

06-15-2005, 10:05 PM	#16
Tar~Palantir Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	OH start making it out like I am against you. People kkeep trying to say that 7-10 buff/miscellaneous spells justify that we do half-2/3 the damage of warlocks(assuming we both have the same spell grade...ie adept I of a wizard vs adept I warlock.) __________________ Echoes of Fadywer: Finally an expansion that doesn't create a rat race for max level.

06-16-2005, 12:14 AM	#17
adamflanagan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Tar~Palantir wrote: OH start making it out like I am against you. People kkeep trying to say that 7-10 buff/miscellaneous spells justify that we do half-2/3 the damage of warlocks(assuming we both have the same spell grade...ie adept I of a wizard vs adept I warlock.) your original point was perfectly valid and i agree with you about it. however the way you put it across (huge bold letters) is rather agressive

06-16-2005, 08:50 PM	#18
Tar~Palantir Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	I am trying to drill into some of these people that utility for sorcerer types is not the same as bard utility. __________________ Echoes of Fadywer: Finally an expansion that doesn't create a rat race for max level.