Why does Breath of the Tyrant suck compared to Ice Spike?

[Fyvoclok_Shadow]

Why does Breath of the Tyrant, a lvl 21 Wizard spell, do only about 2/3 the damage of Ice Spike, a lvl 15 Sorcerer spell (with same casting time, and longer recast)?  I'm currently level 23, and have both spells at App IV.  BoT does about 100-150, and Ice Spike does about 150-200.  In practice, with mob mitigation, BoT usually does about 100, and Ice Spike about 150.

 

So, other than the rare case (at my level) where a mob resists cold, or when the occasional "fire" HO icon pops up, why would I use BoT over Ice Spike?  It seems silly to me that my very first Wizard DD should be so severely gimped compared to the Sorcerer DD I've already been using for six levels.

 

Now, at 23, Ice Spike is yellow, and BoT is orange, so I imagine there will come a time when BoT will make up some ground.  But why should it need to?  Why on earth couldn't these two spells at least do equivalent damage while both are in their prime, with BoT pulling ahead when Ice Spike goes blue?

 

It's just very disappointing for my old and tired Sorcerer spells to still be so much better than my shiny new Wizard spell.  Heck, right now, BoT is only just barely better than freaking BLAZE in terms of damage, and has a longer recast!  What the heck?

Message Edited by Fyvoclok_Shadow on 04-11-2005 10:48 AM

[Penguindu]

Im now level 34 Wizard and i am wondering this too, ice spike is hitting harder ad App3 then my BoTTAdept I....

The damage done by BoTT should be raised or it is another almost worthless spell we get as it takes more power and has a slower recast and the damage they both do.

The only plus side to BoTT is that because it is a higher level spell it may have less chance of being resisted by your target.

[Ironcleaver]

sadly this is a common pattern, as a level 35 wizard I still use ice spike durring every battle as a filler nuke. The problem is that we have to "grow" into our spells. Specialy in the low 20's, before you get ball of fire, ice spike will be your best friend. Back when i was in my early 20's ice spike still did it's old crummy damage of a max 70 point, luckly they fixed this, or should I say balanced this, a few months back. You should also be using Feeze, it's a stun and one of your best nukes. But yea, this is a common problem with most of our spells

[Ironcleaver]

yes, i also agree, the damage of BotT should be raised slightly

[Lady Uaelr]

It looks like this is widespread among many other spells also.

 

Ice Spike gets resisited less on Level 50 mob than westend ice spear....figure that one out..lol

[Penguindu]

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Ironcleaver wrote:
sadly this is a common pattern, as a level 35 wizard I still use ice spike durring every battle as a filler nuke. The problem is that we have to "grow" into our spells. Specialy in the low 20's, before you get ball of fire, ice spike will be your best friend.

Back when i was in my early 20's ice spike still did it's old crummy damage of a max 70 point, luckly they fixed this, or should I say balanced this, a few months back.

You should also be using Feeze, it's a stun and one of your best nukes.

But yea, this is a common problem with most of our spells

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Freeze is good as its really fast casting time but now i am moving up into Runneye you cannot do freeze on many things in there due to the fact it can only hit opponents up to a certain low/mid 30 level.

I use Blazing intimidation more now.

[Ironcleaver]

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Penguindude wrote:

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Ironcleaver wrote:sadly this is a common pattern, as a level 35 wizard I still use ice spike durring every battle as a filler nuke. The problem is that we have to "grow" into our spells. Specialy in the low 20's, before you get ball of fire, ice spike will be your best friend.Back when i was in my early 20's ice spike still did it's old crummy damage of a max 70 point, luckly they fixed this, or should I say balanced this, a few months back.You should also be using Feeze, it's a stun and one of your best nukes.But yea, this is a common problem with most of our spells

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Freeze is good as its really fast casting time but now i am moving up into Runneye you cannot do freeze on many things in there due to the fact it can only hit opponents up to a certain low/mid 30 level.

I use Blazing intimidation more now.

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very very true, I too just entered feerott and nothings below level 36, as freeze caps at level 35. I'ts sad I'll no longer be able to use it, but throughout the 20's and early 30's it's quite the awesome spell what's funny, some of the critters seem to have less hit points then critters in EL. Well, the solo mobs at, and near, the entrance anyway; even the triple groups are pretty easy to solo there. Keep in mind though, I just started going there last night, so I know very little about the zone.. hehe

Message Edited by Ironcleaver on 04-11-2005 11:02 AM

[Fyvoclok_Shadow]

Wow...  I'm still gonna be using a level 15 Sorcerer spell, at level 35?  That's just sad.  Not only that, it sounds like someone else is still using it at level 50?  Are all our Wizard nukes that pathetic, that a level 15 spell has a place in a level 35-50 rotation?

 

Also, I love Freeze, but I was not expecting to miss it after about level 30.  I mean, doesn't it get a decent upgrade/replacement?  What the heck are all those 20-35 spells good for, anyway?

Message Edited by Fyvoclok_Shadow on 04-11-2005 11:15 AM

[ecoskii]

Some of our spells are just wierd - I still have to use Ice Spike (Ad1) and Ball of Fire (Ad3) as normal, every encounter spells up to lvl 41 at mo.  Ice Spike is one of the few spells that doesn't get resisted on a regular basis, recasts v quickly  and is fine for long range pulling as well.  BoF is starting to get resisted more but still regularly does 400+ damage.  Only wish I had got Ice Spike as Ad3 all that time ago - so much lost damage.....

[Ironcleaver]

Blazing intimidation is kinda a replacment for Freeze. Sorta, as they do different types of damage, and have different casting times. Freeze has a casting time of 1, B.I. a casting time of 2. I am unsure if there is a "true replacment" for Freeze; as Blazing intimidation works on critters almost up to level 50. The best time is when you can use both, your DPS really starts to add up fast. not as good, but still pretty awesome is the new adventure pack spell, Ice Flame (usable by both warlocks and wizards as it is a levle 35 sorcerer spell). This still at app4 dose about 260 fire and 255 ice damage on average, with a casting time of 2, it also slows the movment of the target by 68% for 4 seconds. If they replaced the movment portion and added a stun effect it would be the perfect upgrade for Freeze. But either way it found it's way into my rotation. my old rotation: WIS (or BoF), Freeze, Frozen Manicals, Incinerate, BotT, Ice Spike, Blazing Intimidation, then start over. my new rotation 35+: Wis (or BoF), Benumb, Blazing Intimidation, Ice Flame, Tether, then wait for cycles Im still working on my 35+ rotation. I'd use Ice spike but I can't have it break root. But sometimes I toggle back forth between Ice Spike and BotT, and if I were in a group, I'd deffenetly use Ice spike all the time between big nukes.

[Lady Uaelr]

I can confirm for you that Breath of Tyrant and Ice spike hit still on a level 50 mob ( permfrost Kromise protectors and epic x 2 there too).

 

This is the funny part..Ball fo Flames adept 3 will get reisisted and westend might get resisted but your good ol ice spike won't.

 

I think I will get an adept 3 of it...goes for 20g-30g.

 

What I am depressed to find out is that our summoned minion does 10hp dmg per tick......=(..level 49 spell.

 

Well at least we can think of it as another pet.....that is 3 so far that we have that don't do really anything. Maybve I can use that level 49 spell in the graveyard. LOL:smileyvery-happy:

[Lady Uaelr]

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Ironcleaver wrote:
Blazing intimidation is kinda a replacment for Freeze. Sorta, as they do different types of damage, and have different casting times. Freeze has a casting time of 1, B.I. a casting time of 2. I am unsure if there is a "true replacment" for Freeze; as Blazing intimidation works on critters almost up to level 50. The best time is when you can use both, your DPS really starts to add up fast.

not as good, but still pretty awesome is the new adventure pack spell, Ice Flame (usable by both warlocks and wizards as it is a levle 35 sorcerer spell). This still at app4 dose about 260 fire and 255 ice damage on average, with a casting time of 2, it also slows the movment of the target by 68% for 4 seconds. If they replaced the movment portion and added a stun effect it would be the perfect upgrade for Freeze. But either way it found it's way into my rotation.

my old rotation: WIS (or BoF), Freeze, Frozen Manicals, Incinerate, BotT, Ice Spike, Blazing Intimidation, then start over.
my new rotation 35+: Wis (or BoF), Benumb, Blazing Intimidation, Ice Flame, Tether, then wait for cycles

Im still working on my 35+ rotation. I'd use Ice spike but I can't have it break root. But sometimes I toggle back forth between Ice Spike and BotT, and if I were in a group, I'd deffenetly use Ice spike all the time between big nukes.

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Have some more bad news- Blazing Intimidation is great but does not work on some level 45 and higher mobs =(. We get paralyze at 43 or 44 and this is even funnier---paralyze is on an 180 sec timer and does less damage and I think stuns at same amount as blazing intimidation =(. How crazy is that.

It is funny how ice flame is fire and ice and works on level 50 mobs and warlocks can use. I wish we had some power drains...lol

BTW..Ice Flame adept3 = 412 cold + 438 heat damage - get this spell adept3 it will be your favorite-- good recast and great dmg. It out damages westend all the time and ball of flames 50% of the time.

Oh...btw make sure you get adept incinerate and freezing whorl---they work on level 50 mobs..lol

 

 

 

[roarfrost]

Ice spike was just one of the lucky spells that managed to get in with the imprioved spells when they increased wiz/warlock damage. Some spells just got left out of the great damage increases...

[Fyvoclok_Shadow]

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Lady Uaelrea wrote:

Oh...btw make sure you get adept incinerate and freezing whorl---they work on level 50 mobs..lol

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Out of curiousity...  They work on lvl 50 mobs, but do you use them on lvl 50 mobs?  Or do you use later/better spells instead?

 

Or is the system so badly broken that several sub-20 damage spells are the preferred weapons against level 50 content?

 

Edit:  I mean, one of the big incentives to level is getting new toys to play with.  Right now, getting Breath of the Tyrant is like already having an X-box, and then being given an Atari 2600.  Um, yay?

Message Edited by Fyvoclok_Shadow on 04-11-2005 11:58 AM

[Lady Uaelr]

Ok...you abviously know we need to try to debuff the mob. So I use ice coil, pirecing icicles, freezing wind, add incinerate and freezing whorl and start to slow and nuke with blazing intimidation, paralyze, ring of cold these are groups of 3-5 perma giants that have massive hp.

Now if there is someone mezzing I can not use the aoe so I lose piercing icicles and freezing wind I have to use icy coil, freezing whorl and incinerate then start to nuke, slow, and mana pump.

If I am doing something wrong any of you veteran wizards please let me know.

But so far it has worked for me.

Answer to question: yes I do still use on level 50 mob---not raid mob--never did a raid mob. Most I have done is epic x 2.

 

 

 

[Ironcleaver]

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Lady Uaelrea wrote:

Have some more bad news- Blazing Intimidation is great but does not work on some level 45 and higher mobs =(. We get paralyze at 43 or 44 and this is even funnier---paralyze is on an 180 sec timer and does less damage and I think stuns at same amount as blazing intimidation =(. How crazy is that.

It is funny how ice flame is fire and ice and works on level 50 mobs and warlocks can use. I wish we had some power drains...lol

BTW..Ice Flame adept3 = 412 cold + 438 heat damage - get this spell adept3 it will be your favorite-- good recast and great dmg. It out damages westend all the time and ball of flames 50% of the time.

Oh...btw make sure you get adept incinerate and freezing whorl---they work on level 50 mobs..lol

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Uggg... I know eq2 is different form eq1, but maybe it was just easier to balance spells every 4 levels like in eq1, and not every level.  Getting back to eq2 though... I managed to pick up an adept 1 version of incinerate for a mear gold the other day, I was pretty excited. I have high hopes though, there have been a great many changes to spells already, and I'm sure their far from done correcting and balancing them. The future is bright, we just don't know what will happen. Our stun/nukes is what really helped out our DPS. Hopefully SoE will add more in, or at least balance the ones we currently have. I'm not to fond of the way spells and skills work in general; having to "grow" into them. This might be good to stop casters from having a "power level", meaning a level where they first get a bunch of new spells that are powerful vs critters of said level, but it also means our spells are kinda "under powered" for critters of our said level. Then there's the spells we can't fully grow into like our 40+ spells, as we have to be 50+ to see what they really could do. Overall, I am having a blast, litterly, i love being a wizard It's intersting to have people walk up to you (when your fighting a group of 3 critters) and just stand there staring at you in awe. I can just imagine their asking themselves, how the heck is he doing that? hehe The other day in EL I ran pass a group. They had been there fom some time, but we were both respecting each otehrs hunting grounds. One time i ran pass and they hailed me, I thought I had stolen a spawn of theirs and opoligized. To my suprise they gave ninga invite (didn't even bother to ask). I politely said that I just wished to hunt alone and i wished them the best. They then just laughed as they think it's impossable for a wizard to solo, or for that matter make a good chunk of XP doing it. Little did they know I was chain pulling yellows, 5 or 6 at a time, till I was out power, quickly regained it and went on again hunting. The XP is pretty darn fast to say the least. In total it can take about 4hrs to get a full level, not to mention I get to keep all the chest drops but anyway, I'm rambling

Message Edited by Ironcleaver on 04-11-2005 01:13 PM

[Lady Uaelr]

Well...you have impressed me. Pulling yellows is pretty darn good---I am very happy you are doing well and having fun. I am too just wish our spells worked correctly. Or someone from SOE came on the boards and talked a little about each one of them.

 

Maybe we should designate a level 50 wiz or a group of level 50 wiz to do questions and answers with.

 

What do you guys think--I would love to have a grp of 50 wizards reviewing our questions and giving the best hints, recommendations and advice.

[Pessimist]

Hey Ironcleaver, help me out with this one....solo three mobs at the same time?  If I pull three mobs over grey con I get my butt handed to me on a silver platter.  In fact, I can only single pull whites with certanty of victory, yellows almost get the better of me.  Help a 25 Wiz out and tell me how to suck less.  Thanks.

[Lady Uaelr]

Hmm...3 is alot. I can only do two solo greens no blues....=(

[adamflanagan]

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Pessimist wrote:

Hey Ironcleaver, help me out with this one....solo three mobs at the same time?  If I pull three mobs over grey con I get my butt handed to me on a silver platter.  In fact, I can only single pull whites with certanty of victory, yellows almost get the better of me.  Help a 25 Wiz out and tell me how to suck less.  Thanks.

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hmm.... from 23 onwards i had no problem soloing the 28/29 skellies outside RoV. id start by rooting, add three dots (chilling wind, freezing whorl and incinerate), re-root, start HO, BoF, skellie master strike, BotT, blaze, BotT, HO, BoF, ice spike. that would usually kill it. if root broke, freeze, root and stand back. make sure you have BoF and frozon manacles at adept 3, big improvment. note: i was doing this while ice spike was crap. might want to add it in more.

Message Edited by adamflanagan on 04-11-2005 10:19 PM

[Lady Uaelr]

Sounds righ

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adamflanagan wrote:

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Pessimist wrote:

Hey Ironcleaver, help me out with this one....solo three mobs at the same time?  If I pull three mobs over grey con I get my butt handed to me on a silver platter.  In fact, I can only single pull whites with certanty of victory, yellows almost get the better of me.  Help a 25 Wiz out and tell me how to suck less.  Thanks.

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hmm.... at 25 i had no problem soloing the 28/29 skellies outside RoV. id start by rooting, add three dots (chilling wind, freezing whorl and incinerate), re-root, start HO, BoF, skellie master strike, BotT, re-root, HO, BoF, ice spike. that would usually kill it. if root broke, freeze, root and stand back. make sure you have BoF and frozon manacles at adept 3, big improvment.

note: i was doing this while ice spike was crap. might want to add it in more.

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Sounds right...try it out Pessimist and let us know what happens.

[Ironcleaver]

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Pessimist wrote:

Hey Ironcleaver, help me out with this one....solo three mobs at the same time?  If I pull three mobs over grey con I get my butt handed to me on a silver platter.  In fact, I can only single pull whites with certanty of victory, yellows almost get the better of me.  Help a 25 Wiz out and tell me how to suck less.  Thanks.

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Sorry for the delay in my reply, I just got back in the house. I am willing to answer any questions to help my fellow Wizards I'll start by showing how I soloed as a 25 Wizard, then I'll move onto your question. At level 25 I was soloing the Skellies out side of Varsoons in Thundering Steppes, using the following rotation: Pull (Ball of Fire), Stun (Freeze), Root (frozen Manicals), Backed up if needed, Incinerate, Ice Spike, BotT, then root if needed or start with Ball of Fire again. I never bother rooting if the critter only needs one more Ice spike to finish him off. You'll also notice that I don't use HO's. Reason being is that 50% of the time I have to use an AoE to trigger it. Most of our AoE's are slow to cast, and make root wair off really fast, if infact I have to reroot the target. This rotation has changed as I am now level 35 (soloed from 26 up). To Answer your question about taking on a group of 3: First off the group of three I'm taking on are made up of lizards in Feerott. These critters are all single down cons, but there are infact three of them in the group. How I do it is to cast Tether on one to gain argo. Tether is a great spell, if you dont know, when the spell ends it casts another short term root on the target; tether itself lasts 22 seconds? or there abouts. Once one is Tethered, I cast Benumb on the second fast and root him in place with frozen manicals. I then use my stuns on the third after backing up, and nuke him down fast. Once I'm done nuking down taht one I re-tether the first again, and get to work on the second. Once he'd toast, I move onto the tethered one. I do dual mobs the same way, and it is much easier to keep track of just two. I can also solo single level 32++'s. This is tricky, but is very doable, though it takes a few minutes. For these I start with my main nuke, follow up with a stun, then tether. After tether my rotation changes. Right after tether is cast I back up if needed and cast Harvest (which stuns me for 15 seconds). This gives me back some power and I have no worries about tether breaking becasue I didn't DoT the critter. I then wait for my spells to cycle back up, or re-tether if needed. the key for these is Nuke, Stun, Tether, Harvest, Repeat. Although doable, the time involved isn't worth it, xp can me made much easier chain killing blues, whites or yellows. This is not possable yet as you currently do not have the proper spells to pull this off. You might be able to do two at once using Forzen Mancials, but Tether is super reliable. This is why I showed you my level 25 rotation first, it's good bread and butter for levels 25 through 28 I hope this helps, and I'm always willing to answer any questions

Message Edited by Ironcleaver on 04-11-2005 05:32 PM

[Ironcleaver]

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Lady Uaelrea wrote:

Hmm...3 is alot. I can only do two solo greens no blues....=(

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Just to clarify, the group of three I'm taking on are lizards in feerott, their yellow (level 36 or 27, might even be 38's), and single down cons. The key is to "park" them (with roots) and back up Hark

[TheWhiteRaid]

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Lady Uaelrea wrote:

Have some more bad news- Blazing Intimidation is great but does not work on some level 45 and higher mobs =(. We get paralyze at 43 or 44 and this is even funnier---paralyze is on an 180 sec timer and does less damage and I think stuns at same amount as blazing intimidation =(. How crazy is that.

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After the last patch Paralyze stuns the target for longer and also has a shorter cast time;  however,   it does not do any damage and it also has a 180 second recast.

BTW my Burning Intimidation caps out at level 48 targets.   It is app4 right now.

 

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It is funny how ice flame is fire and ice and works on level 50 mobs and warlocks can use. I wish we had some power drains...lol

BTW..Ice Flame adept3 = 412 cold + 438 heat damage - get this spell adept3 it will be your favorite-- good recast and great dmg. It out damages westend all the time and ball of flames 50% of the time.

Oh...btw make sure you get adept incinerate and freezing whorl---they work on level 50 mobs..lol

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The cast range on Ice Flame though is the only thing that sucks about it.  

[Pessimist]

Thanks for the info everyone, I will give them a shot and see how I do.  I really appreciate the detailed explination Iron, it should help me to move forward faster.  I have explored Nek Forest from one side to the other and I guess I wouldn't mind exploring TS to see what kind of nodes are available to harvest. :smileyhappy:

[IllusiveThoughts]

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Ironcleaver wrote:

I can also solo single level 32++'s. This is tricky, but is very doable, though it takes a few minutes. For these I start with my main nuke, follow up with a stun, then tether. After tether my rotation changes. Right after tether is cast I back up if needed and cast Harvest (which stuns me for 15 seconds). This gives me back some power and I have no worries about tether breaking becasue I didn't DoT the critter. I then wait for my spells to cycle back up, or re-tether if needed. the key for these is Nuke, Stun, Tether, Harvest, Repeat. Although doable, the time involved isn't worth it, xp can me made much easier chain killing blues, whites or yellows.

This is not possable yet as you currently do not have the proper spells to pull this off. You might be able to do two at once using Forzen Mancials, but Tether is super reliable.

Message Edited by Ironcleaver on 04-11-2005 05:32 PM

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sounds a lot like this....

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=8992

 

[Lady Uaelr]

Excellent guide....Please create new post if possible with this link. It would really help a lot of wizards.

 

BTW I tried it and it works great at 45 too.

[Ironcleaver]

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IllusiveThoughts wrote:

sounds a lot like this....

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=8992

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That is a very good thread, great minds think alike There are minor differences though. I didn't mention it here, but I'm pretty aggressive when fighting solos. I start with the big nuke, then cast Benumb (reason being critters like starting out with a special that will more then likely stun), then ice flame, I.B., and finally frozen manicals. The way we both hunt ++'s is basicly the same though. But given our limited spells, there's really only so many ways to kill one of these bad boys Like I said, thats a very good thread with tons of good information in it. I wish I read it eariler Hark