Official Paladin Concerns Thread?

[Jenguro]

<DIV>My primary alt is a Paladin (47) and I regularly read these forums for information, suggestions, advice, etc., about the class.  It seems that there are *many* advanced players who are dissatisfied with the class, particularly in regards to its usefulness in raids.  I have noticed on other class forums that there are threads dedicated to suggesting class adjustments that are stickied at the top of the page.  The advantage of this is it offers game developers a convenient way to see the concerns of players, which hopefully would expedite the process of adjusting the class accordingly.  I would like to hear a players list the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. What are your greatest concerns with the Paladin class?</DIV> <DIV>2. How would you suggest addressing these concerns?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be willing (or anyone else of course) to consolidate these into a single post, with review from the players.  Let me know what you think, and if this would even be necessary in your opinions.  Best wishes,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Daeolan</DIV> <DIV>47 High Elf Paladin, Lucan D'Lere</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jengurorm on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[kellan123]

I wouldn't say I'm concerned, but I'd just like to hear their "vision".If we are Fighters, and then Crusaders, and then Paladins, why is our role so clouded in a raid setting?If we are given tools that other archetypes and sub-archetypes do not have, then why are those abilities not emphasized in AA or focus effects? (like our cousins the warriors and brawlers)If we are not hybrids, then what are we? (it certainly isn't a primary tank/healer/dps)I would suggest that our role be defined by a given route. If we are to tank by means of wards, taunts, heals then please accentuate those abilities. If we are to melee while healing, please let us cast on the move (while penalizing with timers). If we are to employ spell damage as a viable means of effort, please remove WIS from our prerequisite skills and move it to INT (and then change our name to Shadowknights).I'll be back to edit.<span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<P>/peer</P> <P>Shsssh.. run.. run while you still can.. :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Boli32]

<div></div>Concerns?We can't use our class defining abilities in our class defining role. In other words we can't heal or ward whilst tanking, aspects we have reduced avoidance and mitigation to have.Solutions, it has been said many times and out of all the solutions I think it is the best ones.We have lower health because we can self ward... but we cannot cast said said ward whlist in the midst of combat, so... our self Health buff changing it to a regenerating stackable ward. If possible stacked so damage is removed off that ward FIRST. Perhaps whle we are at it an ability to replenish said ward 0.5s cast 3min recast allowing us whlst tanking a window of a few virtual hit points and interupt free time to allow both ourselves and healers to catch up.We have lower avoid than any other tank out there - interrupts kill and no amount of focus is going to save you, reaching a stage where half of your abilities (spells) are rendered useless everytime you enter a situaiton where you are being hit by large groups, or interupting attacks. What we need specifically is a slightly increased avoid; blocking seems to be a paladin centric ability as of late having +block on our defensive stance will give us a few extra % to avoid.Both I don't believe will break the game, or the class but will go some way to addressing the conerns many of us are seeing on the class as of late. I'll like to reitterrate my concern again (mainly because I thought it sounded cool <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<div align="center"><font size="5">We can't use our class defining abilities in our class defining role.</font></div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>01-25-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>I'm not sure where this rumor started that we don't have a lot of HP's. I've been over 14k in raid, and have seen others over 15k.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I posted this in another thread, but I'll post once more if you want my opinion on what would help greatly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are two areas that I think we can excel at if given the opportunity. First is Amends. This has long been the thing a pally is most noted for. It should be expanded and more along the lines of a group buff. A version that would help the paladin in a non tanking role. I'm not suggesting a replacement, but rather, an addition. Divine Favor would be a good spot to put it.</DIV> <DIV> <P>Second is block. This could possibly be a really good tanking ability. You have warriors that can take a hit, Monks and Bruisers that can avoid the hit, and crusaders that can block a hit. This is something I would like to see both SK's and Pallies get. Adding a decent amount of Block to our offensive stances can go a long way. Then expand the blocking with gear and AA's that enhance this (AA's already covered here).</P> <P>I feel that combined, these two changes will help our class. It will also help the SK brothers. They can still have the DPS and block, while we can have group amends support and block. Having a different version of amends will make us pallies very desirable in raid scenarios. The single target amends should still be the best way for aggro, but the group one making us usefull in raids. Block, would just make us a viable tank option.</P></DIV>

[TheBu]

<DIV>"1. What are your greatest concerns with the Paladin class? <DIV> 2. How would you suggest addressing these concerns?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. That our greatest agro spells use agro transfers.<BR>    Agro transfers may not work well with other classes agro transfers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There was an update note on the test server but not for live servers. What did they do? i know something is better. as far as wiz but what did they do? they fix it for all the classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seem a wishy washy still. It does not seem to do what the spells says. If agro transfer from the scout and the wiz. or a degro from the trub we should have no problems with agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>two of our agro transfer spells add up to more than 50% transfer. but it does not work that way in the tests. they apear not to stack with our own spells. we really need to know how it works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If soe thinks it is to overpowering then just change it. cuz the math does not add up. </DIV> <DIV>It seems soe feals only the gardians should have put me at the top of the hate list with a root with a increase threat by 1 on each melee hit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i use master amends on the big dpser and use my sigil i should never lose agro. purhasp they do not work well togher,  a fix might be to make sigil use 41% or greater agro transfer and say it temp overrides the amends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sigil is not like reinforcement wer it can change priority with  each melee hit. sigil is a build up of the agro over time from the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like most our agro spells are over time. wer the gardian has immediate gratification. kinda like a scout and a mage. a scout can dps quickly but the mage may build up more damage over time. We should be able to generate more agro over time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Arraza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheBuzZ wrote:<BR> <DIV>"1. What are your greatest concerns with the Paladin class? <DIV> 2. How would you suggest addressing these concerns?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. That our greatest agro spells use agro transfers.<BR>    Agro transfers may not work well with other classes agro transfers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There was an update note on the test server but not for live servers. What did they do? i know something is better. as far as wiz but what did they do? they fix it for all the classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0000>They said through this forum that Amends was fixed.. however it was removed from the "official" update notes... which says to be they weren't sure it was fixed... but I'm a pessamistic [Removed for Content].  The other issue with having to rely on someone for hate is that if they die, you have a significantly harder time holding agro.  It doesnt happen often, but occasionally my amends target dies due to an ae or goes afk and then things suck.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seem a wishy washy still. It does not seem to do what the spells says. If agro transfer from the scout and the wiz. or a degro from the trub we should have no problems with agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0000>I agree, I still see it bug out quite.  I can tell its bugged when a healer starts getting agro in a middle of a group fight.  Definately not as much as it used to, but this time it seems harder to identify the source.  Though I do think it its bugged with sigil, usually I end up recasting after I use sigil.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>two of our agro transfer spells add up to more than 50% transfer. but it does not work that way in the tests. they apear not to stack with our own spells. we really need to know how it works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0000>Not sure what you mean by this, we really only have one agro transfer and that is amends.  Sigil is a short term transfer, which seems to bug amends.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If soe thinks it is to overpowering then just change it. cuz the math does not add up. </DIV> <DIV>It seems soe feals only the gardians should have put me at the top of the hate list with a root with a increase threat by 1 on each melee hit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i use master amends on the big dpser and use my sigil i should never lose agro. purhasp they do not work well togher,  a fix might be to make sigil use 41% or greater agro transfer and say it temp overrides the amends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sigil is not like reinforcement wer it can change priority with  each melee hit. sigil is a build up of the agro over time from the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0000>Exactly, while I used to use sigial in groups as an emergency agro grabber, it really works better as a "burn the mob down" tool.  That is specifically because of what you say, its agro over time.  Once cast it still takes some time for the agro to kick in and the mobs come back at you.  So usually I cast it and let people know that they can really push it.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like most our agro spells are over time. wer the gardian has immediate gratification. kinda like a scout and a mage. a scout can dps quickly but the mage may build up more damage over time. We should be able to generate more agro over time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Bladewind]

<DIV>Concern:  While performing the primary intended fighter role, tanking, I am interrupted constantly and cannot use my wards or heals on myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Possible Solution:  Treat paladin heals and wards as combat arts that cannot be interrupted instead of spells.</DIV>

[Fellindar]

^^^/agree <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>The easiest way to rememdy the paladin's tanking troubles when fighting large groups of enemies is to make their heals and particuarly their ward into combat arts.That would be a simple fix that would be enough of a change for me.Sir Felindar FierbladeLight of QeynosGuk Server<div></div>

[Prrasha]

They don't even need to be moved to the "combat arts" tab of the skills page, there's a flag that can be set to make a spell uninterruptible. A Warlock's invisibility spell and an Illusionist's primary mez are both spells, but they can be cast on-the-run and are uninterruptible.

[Rast]

<P>there for a while our one nuke was castable on the run as well.  Not the DoT one, but the small single target nuke...  it was back when I was in my late 20s early 30s as I remember nuking the orcs in zek while running towards them, was kinda neat actually.</P> <P>Kinda wish they hadn't 'fixed' that one <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[kellan123]

Yeah, they changed that when PvP was introduced. It was great to pull with. Now we only have Brimstone, but at least we have that.<div></div>

[Rast]

Yah, only realized about a week ago that it could be cast while moving.

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mgunner wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm not sure where this rumor started that we don't have a lot of HP's. I've been over 14k in raid, and have seen others over 15k.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>I think the rumor started when paladins that were not STA line specced and/or went power pool/regen instead of health pool compared their numbers to other fighters.  A KOS STA specced paladin with health pool traits will usually have a 12% health pool bonus off of most races, and coupled with Hero Line AA' will have more health than any other fighter than a mastered return to war guardian(which is their group buff and will be bigger to you anyways)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I posted this in another thread, but I'll post once more if you want my opinion on what would help greatly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are two areas that I think we can excel at if given the opportunity. First is Amends. This has long been the thing a pally is most noted for. It should be expanded and more along the lines of a group buff. A version that would help the paladin in a non tanking role. I'm not suggesting a replacement, but rather, an addition. Divine Favor would be a good spot to put it.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>Even Better spot is in the Hero Line, change Sigil to be a alternative option similar to our pledge of armament/group armament option.  The percentage of hate transfer may have to be reduced if it is a toggleable alternative till cancled or if you put points into it, take up a concentration slot and make it unable to cast amends while this spell is toggled.  I would consider it a improvement to 5 more seconds of duration on sigil now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <P>Second is block. This could possibly be a really good tanking ability. You have warriors that can take a hit, Monks and Bruisers that can avoid the hit, and crusaders that can block a hit. This is something I would like to see both SK's and Pallies get. Adding a decent amount of Block to our offensive stances can go a long way. Then expand the blocking with gear and AA's that enhance this (AA's already covered here).</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I assume you mean the defensive stance having the block % added to it and not the offensive stance.  I was looking at this awhile back and thought having a 1% to adept 1 or lower, 2% at adept3 and 3% at master 1 would be a excellent help to crusaders tanking.  It gives us a unique way to help reduce our damage that doesnot step on the toes of other classes.  As far as helping Shadowknights out, they will get less of a overall benefit, being as they do not have the blocking mastery, which is fine by me, we are the more defensive oriented of the 2 crusaders and should have the highest block chance.  They in turn have the ability of snap agro with death march and the siphon mit abilities to more than compensate.</FONT></P> <P>I feel that combined, these two changes will help our class. It will also help the SK brothers. They can still have the DPS and block, while we can have group amends support and block. Having a different version of amends will make us pallies very desirable in raid scenarios. The single target amends should still be the best way for aggro, but the group one making us usefull in raids. Block, would just make us a viable tank option.</P></DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>I use to champion benfits to both paladins and shadowknights, but since EOF and the changes afterwards, it makes little sense to include shadowknights in most of what we ask for.  They do not share nearly as much issues as we do on the heals/wards with the sheer amount of lifetaps they have on their abilities now and having INT as their secondary power line means any discussion in gear is that both use is rare.   If they want something we are proposing they can post in their forum, but let's not muddy the waters including shadowknights in this.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kaleyen]

I read a lot of good changes here that I'm going to bring up and why I like them.<font color="#ccff99">From OrcSlayer96:</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccffff"><font color="#ccff99">Having a 1% to adept 1 or lower, 2% at adept3 and 3% at master 1 would be a excellent help to crusaders tanking.  It gives us a unique way to help reduce our damage that doesnot step on the toes of other classes.  As far as helping Shadowknights out, they will get less of a overall benefit, being as they do not have the blocking mastery, which is fine by me, we are the more defensive oriented of the 2 crusaders and should have the highest block chance.  They in turn have the ability of snap agro with death march and the siphon mit abilities to more than compensate.</font><font color="#ffffff"><b><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">I really like this idea, it would be a very easy way for SOE to help us with tanking.  That and our master Defensive stance is a rare find nowadays, that it would give us all something to strive for.</font></b><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">From Bladewind:</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99"></font></font></font> <div><font color="#ccff99">Concern:  While performing the primary intended fighter role, tanking, I am interrupted constantly and cannot use my wards or heals on myself. </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99">Possible Solution:  Treat paladin heals and wards as combat arts that cannot be interrupted instead of spells.</font><font size="2"><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">This is the key issue that a lot of us are facing.  We get told that our self heals and wards make up for our lack of mit/hp/avoid but when it comes down to it we're not able to use these abilities while tanking.</font></b></font>From TheBuzZ/Wintermute 218:</div><div><font color="#ccff99">two of our agro transfer spells add up to more than 50% transfer. but it does not work that way in the tests. they apear not to stack with our own spells. we really need to know how it works.</font></div> <div><font color="#ccff99"> </font></div> <div><strong><font color="#cc0000"><font color="#ccff99">Not sure what you mean by this, we really only have one agro transfer and that is amends.  Sigil is a short term transfer, which seems to bug amends.</font><font color="#ffffff" size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">True that Amends is our only true agro transfer but sigil shouldn't bug out amends.  And while I'm at it they need to put a perma fix on amends so it doesn't need to be kept on recasted.</font></font></font></strong></div>I really agree with Kade on his points that we need some direction from SOE as to what we are and what we're suppose to do.  We all ready the same thing about how there is no hybrids in EQ2 but in all honesty, that's what we are.Oh and one more thing...why not take away the need for 5 stats and make us dependent on 4 stats like our evil brethern the SKs?  Put our spell damage from the WIS pool since we are divine warriors.<div></div>