State of the Paladin Address

[kellan123]

Intent of post: to stop the whining and start the changingI do not understand why people pretend or expect to be another class other than what they are. I do not care that you put time/effort into your class; if you want to do something you currently can not, you're not designed to do it. Please reroll now, you'll be happier in the end. Trust me. That doesn't mean that mistakes aren't made by the designers, but please stop trying to mold paladins into what YOU want it to be and start adapting to things you may not be able to change. You think you have it bad because you don't make top 8 in the parses? Imagine being a bard where everything you do, serves to make everyone ELSE look better. I miss the old paladins that would post constructive criticism, instead of just saying "omg !!! thtis SUXoXRS!!! DAM U SOE!!!! fix it or i quit". How about building a paladin that the designers have in mind and saying, "your design is flawed"? That way, you have a leg to stand on. Screaming that you cannot compete with wizards for damage, or that you unable to generate more aggression than a guardian, is not the way to go. Instead, play-test their model and prove it does not work. If you can't beat them, join them. Learn to adapt and adjust accordingly. We are who we are....until we reroll. Justify your existence in this game by utilizing the tools that you've been given. There's a alarming and growing negative trend towards paladins that makes me sad. We are being thought of as "expendable" or "easily replaced". I combat this with an air of "It's not about what I can't do, it's what I can do..." I do not like being thought of as a 4th string tank, or a laughable healer, or a wanna-be dps. I'd rather create my own utility. I'd rather be the all-around hero that ties things together, which is what we seem to be getting tagged as. The person that is key to the raid, but may never gets the credit. The invisible factor. You want your place at the table to be respected? Then you have to make it so. You want an easy spot? Go make a wizard and focus on INT and spell-timing. To me, that's not where the respect is due. Combat parses may be the generally accepted guideline by which we govern "effectiveness", but I do remember when our dirges helped with battle-rez, or when the necro actually healed, or when a paladin saved a wipe by using LoH on a spike damage, or when a paladin warded the MT before every pull, or when a paladin was able to grab aggro and use Divine Aura to give the raid 10 seconds to get back up. (longest sentence ever; I think my dangling particle fell off) I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I don't care that the focus effects aren't what I would have picked on the class fabled set. I'm going to pray for the pieces to drop every effing time we kill Mayong or Wuoshi...and when I get them....you're [Removed for Content] right I'm going to be proud of them and flaunt the Hell out of them. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't give a flying frog's fat @ss that it doesn't proc Fusion or generate so much hate that mobs are zoning in to find you. I'll use it to the best of my abilities and to the extent that it can.That, as they say, is my 2cp.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>/em gets some popcorn</P>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>oh boy.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are flaws to the class. Remember when SOE said we'd be resist tanks. That never happened.  Not sure many paladins are even around from the beginning who would remember when they said that. SOE failed the paladins, not the other way around. These old paladins included myself and many others. There was less complaining because we didn't know better. I didn't know what each and every class had to offer. Most of us where all learning. Well, in the end, we've become more in touch with what being a paladin is all about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If suggesting that we just roll with the punches and adapt to what they have made us, then no way. This community (and game) has been built from the ground up with the players in mind. How many times have they changed something only to change it back because of negative feedback. Or added this, or removed that, based on player input.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree, complaining about something without solutions isn't going to change anything, however, there have been several posts made by several long standing paladins that have provided great ideas and thoughts.  You just have to sift through all the garbage to get to them. There are posts by some paladins I refuse to read. Then there are others I will actively search for because I respect their views.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, many of us know this class better than most devs. We can provide input, and we can offer ideas for changes. changes have happened before, and it will happen again.  They do listen.</DIV>

[Marcula]

<P><FONT color=#66ffff>I am the most hideous looking Ratonga Paladin to ever play on a PvP (Venekor) server. I could fix that by making myself some Vanguard armor to replace my new Plate but that would negate the "Pause to gaze at my vileness before thinking of retaliation" which allows me to win battles.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>I love my character and every little bit of joy it brings me ......and being one of about 30 in my level range makes me unique. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>I think I am favored by the gods of Norath like Tasslehoff Burrfoot was to Fizban the Fabulous</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>I may even be a god </FONT></P> <P>Wanderingwilly - Paladin of the 62nd order of merit</P> <P>                         - Armorer of the 66th apprenticeship level</P> <P> </P>

[kellan123]

<blockquote><hr>Mgunner wrote:<div></div> <div>oh boy.......</div> <div> </div> <div>There are flaws to the class. Remember when SOE said we'd be resist tanks. That never happened.  Not sure many paladins are even around from the beginning who would remember when they said that. SOE failed the paladins, not the other way around. These old paladins included myself and many others. There was less complaining because we didn't know better. I didn't know what each and every class had to offer. Most of us where all learning. Well, in the end, we've become more in touch with what being a paladin is all about.</div> <div> </div> <div>If suggesting that we just roll with the punches and adapt to what they have made us, then no way. This community (and game) has been built from the ground up with the players in mind. How many times have they changed something only to change it back because of negative feedback. Or added this, or removed that, based on player input.</div> <div> </div> <div>I agree, complaining about something without solutions isn't going to change anything, however, there have been several posts made by several long standing paladins that have provided great ideas and thoughts.  You just have to sift through all the garbage to get to them. There are posts by some paladins I refuse to read. Then there are others I will actively search for because I respect their views.</div> <div> </div> <div>Remember, many of us know this class better than most devs. We can provide input, and we can offer ideas for changes. changes have happened before, and it will happen again.  They do listen.</div><hr></blockquote>Correct, they <b>will</b> change. I find it assuring that the SoE Community Manager, Grimwell, chose a paladin to play, because he actually reads the forums and wants to better understand what we're saying.<hr size="2" width="100%"><i><strong>Grimwell</strong> - My current main is a Fae Paladin. Before creating him I read up on the class forums and saw that some said paladins didn’t hold up as tanks in a big party. I decided that I wanted to know their pain so I could better understand it and rolled up a paladin as my first character in EoF. </i><i>taken from</i>: <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=842" target=_blank>Interview with Craig Dalrymple</a><hr size="2" width="100%">No, he has not hit the end-game yet. Yes, Paladins at level 30 are quite a beacon of light and the gameplay experience is completely unlike the end-game. However, the fact remains, he chose a paladin to better "know our pain". He'll level up, he'll see why even people like me are starting to adore our alts.What I was saying is more directed towards the folks who seem intent on trying to change the direction, or alter the abilities of the class. They are offering no deemable advice, opting for a more plaintive or sometimes hostile approach. Man up, I say. Try what you have been given, before crying in outrage.Make sense?

[Meskin]

<DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=224115623-22012007><FONT face=Arial size=2> NICE!  The Frog's Fat you know what at the end actually made me laugh outloud!  Good post.  I love my pally, but I am not at end game so I am not sure about that.  I can comment that going in as a pally, people should expect that they are jack of all trades of sorts.  I don't want to be a MT and I don't want to be a MH, I don't want to be just DPS or buff.  I rolled a guy who can do all of that and can jump from one to the other each spell or CA cast and that is fun to me.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Rast]

<P>I agree with you on many things Kade.  My biggest issue is that I want to be a paladin, I want to be effective using the skill sets we have now (with some tweaks).  I don't need to be the highest mitigation, IF I have an ability that is effective in replacing that.  I don't need to have the most HPs IF I have abilities to counter it.  Right now, we do not.</P> <P>I too am pleased to hear that Grimwell is playing a paladin.</P> <P>As to solutions, there have been several that are realistic posted and "seemingly" ignored.</P> <P>How about reducing the number of attributes we need to concentrate on? (move our damage to wisdom and eliminate our need to even consider int as a stat).</P> <P>How about reducing our cast times so we can actually use our abilities while *gasp* tanking?</P> <P>How about fixing our joke of a death ward with something that might actually get used?  Something like a %based ward that would allow us to take the initial influx of damage that causes us to be so poor at tanking?</P> <P>How about making our defensive stance something someone would want to be in (like adding a +stam to it with the +wis) right now, we loose FAR too much going from offensive to defensive (especially power).</P>

[DarkLord35]

<P><3 My Pally, pretty sure my guildies do too, never complain.</P> <P>My 2cp</P> <P>Jedod 70th Paladin</P> <P>The Tyrants - Permafrost</P>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<P>Im very much content with my paladin.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have full tank gear, and full dps gear.. and allways consider both for upgrades when Im out browsing for goods.</P> <P>For grouping I can be tank, healer, or dps.. for raids I can heal or dps..</P> <P> </P> <P>We are however as opposed to other fighter classes, very gear dependant to suit ourselves for different roles. </P> <P>If I wanna do descent dps I have to switch out all my tank gear with +int,+procs, +dps, +haste, etc items. I cant just whip out a buckler and use my leet aa skill.. :p</P> <P> </P> <P>Im gonna go mad if they change dmg to wisdom now btw.. thats alot of hard earned cash on adorments wasted.. not to mention my other +int/proc gear.. hehe.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for healing route while tanking.. Who would have chosen the healing path of EoF AA if the end ability was not just a new heal, but instead an insta cast of either ward or fervent aid?</P>

[Nevar]

I am not sure why yall try to talk to the devs. They dont listen and after me and phovs skermish in beta I am positive they dont care so I wouldnt waste your time with ideas. They dont care and our course will only be altered by what they thik and thats it. It sucks but its the way it is. No matter how much you complain nothing will change. Look at our AAs for example but we complained hardcore in beta about them and look what we get.

[Boli32]

I re-rolled my pally (2nd time around go me! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), to tank... not because I would do great dps great healing or anythign fantastic... just because I KNEW at the end of the day I would still stay hacking at the mobs while the rest of the group ran away. Sure if I was min-maxing I would have chosen 5 of the other tanks above pally, but I keep harking back to the the time I was low on health and my ENTIRE group ran away evaced (out of range) and left me standing alone against this blue herioc hacking away.... I won the fight on my own (eventually) and the group returned sheepishly, I grouped with them often afterwards and I even made a maco "Don't worry, we can take this" I used to spam if things got desparte. and they never doubted my skill as a tank ever again.I simply want that back, those little moments lost 2 years ago when my pally stood up against impossible odds and won through. now everyone doubts our skill, our ability and talks crap behind our back.Tanking wise... agro is fine... more than fine get the right group setp and a pally can tank AFK, a paladins skill lies not in keeping agro but simply staying alive, a skill we CANNOT USE when tanking currantly. That's our problem and the worst thing is EVERYONE knows it.I love my pally but we have SO MUCH unused potential it does make me cry a little inside every time I tank for a group.<div></div>

[kellan123]

You guys brought up some good points:<ul><li>We <i>are</i> gear dependent, but you know what that tells me? Out little problem with having so many prerequisitite attributes (STR, STAM, WIS, etc..) also makes us very versatlie. Instead of being locked into tank stats, we can change to caster/healer stats with a gear set change. We have the option. Ask a scout if they can do that. That very well be the main problem with the strife that so many paladins feel. With such a mutltitude of roles we can be, perhaps the many roles within the paladin community is the reason we take to the boards with our voices. (e.g. I CAN be a tank, I want to be one...and another guy....I CAN be a DPS, I want to be one) As far as I remember, SoE has been saying that we are not a hybrid class, a la EQlive...but it seems inevitably, that we are.</li></ul><ul><li>The devs don't listen. I refuse to accept this as a valid argument if change is desired. I started this thread saying "let's stop whining and start the changing". If you really want a change, then don't take an apathetic approach. You say other people question our ability; they doubt our utility. I see that. I spent almost two hours on the phone with my guild leader on Saturday and when I hung up, I realized "I just spent the majority of that phone call justifying my spot on the raid." That's not a good feeling. I first blamed his naivety of not understanding our class, but then I realized it's not his job to know what I do. It's <b>my</b> job to make sure he knows what I do.</li></ul>I have faith that changes will come, be it on the developer's side or the community's.

[Marcula]

<P><FONT color=#66ffff>I have a question...... I recently hit 62 and made myself a set of xegonite armor. I went with Pure Plate armor this time as it seems the wis/int are way more beneficial to our offence. (I PvP so need to be able to kill an opponent solo not just hold argo in tank mode) </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>I have worn Vanguard the whole way to 62, but my plate gives me stats that send my spell damage way up. ( But wow plate armor is sooooooo ugly)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Am I doing the right thing going Plate vs Vanguard? (I added two str dolls for increased str)</FONT></P> <P>Wanderingwilly - Paladin of the 62nd order of merit</P> <P>                        - Armorer of the 66th apprenticeship level</P>

[Rast]

I use vanguard on my 66 pally.  I wanted the tanking stats, but I'm on a PvE server so that wasn't an issue with me.  Though I'm surpised you didn't go with the devout set (with is str,sta,int)

[Nevar]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR>You guys brought up some good points:<BR><BR> <UL> <LI>We <I>are</I> gear dependent, but you know what that tells me? Out little problem with having so many prerequisitite attributes (STR, STAM, WIS, etc..) also makes us very versatlie. Instead of being locked into tank stats, we can change to caster/healer stats with a gear set change. We have the option. Ask a scout if they can do that. That very well be the main problem with the strife that so many paladins feel. With such a mutltitude of roles we can be, perhaps the many roles within the paladin community is the reason we take to the boards with our voices. (e.g. I CAN be a tank, I want to be one...and another guy....I CAN be a DPS, I want to be one) As far as I remember, SoE has been saying that we are not a hybrid class, a la EQlive...but it seems inevitably, that we are.</LI></UL><BR> <UL> <LI>The devs don't listen. I refuse to accept this as a valid argument if change is desired. I started this thread saying "let's stop whining and start the changing". If you really want a change, then don't take an apathetic approach. You say other people question our ability; they doubt our utility. I see that. I spent almost two hours on the phone with my guild leader on Saturday and when I hung up, I realized "I just spent the majority of that phone call justifying my spot on the raid." That's not a good feeling. I first blamed his naivety of not understanding our class, but then I realized it's not his job to know what I do. It's <B>my</B> job to make sure he knows what I do.</LI></UL>I have faith that changes will come, be it on the developer's side or the community's.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well you either suck or your guild leader is dumb is all I can say. Pallys are a good class but I cant stand it anymore. I have won heal parses and gotten 800dps doing it ( Avatar of Valor ). I can tank decently but not as good as our guard. Our class is boring at high end. There is no way around it. I have killed everything that has been killed this expansion and a little more. I know what I can do and I know where I stand in raid grps. Im just sick of the class and I know devs dont listen. They only fix what is broken and its that simple. Nothing we have is broke so nothing will change unless combat is revamped again.<BR></DIV>

[Marcula]

<P><FONT color=#66ffff>I am an armorer with an abundant supply of xegonite so I will probably go devout in the near future. (The devout is the last stuff you are able to make and I need something to wear till I get to level 69 armorer :smileysad: ) From reading notes it looks like for PvP I should be gearing in Devout as soon as I can.........(I should have gone vanguard for the better look till I am able to make lol!)</FONT></P> <P>Wanderingwilly - Paladin of the 62nd order of merit</P> <P>                         - Armorer of the 66th apprenticeship level</P>

[Faelgalad]

<P>It seems that my problem with the Paladin has found an unexpected solution. </P> <P>I will change to the new Vanguard game. </P> <P>What Paladins can do there, makes my heart bitter, as I miss it with my Paladin in Everquest. </P> <P>One point here is very good, we have to prove that we are an gain for an raid. </P> <P>Not with a few gifted player. </P> <P>In the moment, every Raidleader with some brain will look onto his sheat and either take a Wizard or Priest in instead. </P> <P>Even in normal heroic instances, many prefer a Guardian over an Paladin. </P> <P> </P> <P>For those who allways say, "reroll". </P> <P>I have choosen my Paladin with the description of the manual and the website. They are highly misleading. All what I demand is that those</P> <P>promises given in this text are realised by SOE. Simply that. There is no word of half Fighter/Healer, no word of "least desired class for high end contend". </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Sad days of the present, why most these be my days. </P> <P>Theodin, King of Rohan</P>

[Aaldarr]

<P>Level 70 here and enjoy my Paly a lot.  I have played a Paly in both EQ1 and EQ2 (seven years worth to date).  High end guilds, low end guilds and everything in-between, MT, MA  the whole bit.   Some people just want it all and will never be satisfied no matter what is given to them.  If the devs change things, they do it with the INTENT to make the game better for EVERYONE.  In some cases it might create an inconvience or minor hardship to some class members.  But it is not intentional.  They don't sit around the table and say...."ok guys, it's screw the Paly day"    If you have such heartburn with the toon you play,,,,,,,,,,,then for heavens sakes do one of three things.....</P> <P>1) Reroll another toon or </P> <P>2) Adapt to the conditions you are given and make the best of it. </P> <P>3) Learn to be constructive in your comments, give appropriate examples, and use common courtesy ( a Paladin trait by the way) when you write a post.</P> <P>Not a single class is perfect or has everything they want, so why should the Paly class be different.........just read all the other forums.  Everyone wants what everyone else has got.  How boring........</P> <P>Every single thing about combat  is about adapting to the conditions in which you find yourself.  If you can't adapt,,,,,you're screwed.  Don't rely on the devs or someone else to make you better.  Find a way to make yourself better within the constraints you have been given........That's a REAL paladin trait.    </P> <P>My 2 cp for what it's worth..  I believe a dragon is calling my name..............................</P><p>Message Edited by Aaldarr on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[Heeehahaha]

<DIV>meh.. nm</DIV><p>Message Edited by Heeehahaha on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 PM</span>

[CottonSteel]

AMEN BROTHER!  I decided about 2 months ago, I can't change them so I might as well be the best [I cannot control my vocabulary] Paladin I can be.  I will heal. I will ward. I will kill. I will do it.Nothing is going to bring me down.  Heck, I am up to MA now (well about 60% of the time).  I am not looking to take the agro from the Guardian - thats his job.  My job is stand there and hold him up and ward him and do what ever I can to make the raid succeed.  Matters not if I am not in the DPS.  Thats someone elses job.  My job is to be the best that I can be.  Someday, (even if it never comes) we will be victorous over all who doubt us.<div></div>I am ready for more more more more!  Don't cry - you knew the class when you came into it.  Choose your rate - pick your fate! (old Navy saying) well it is completely true here.Peace. Honor. Glory. Victory for all.

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Heeehahaha wrote:<BR> <DIV>meh.. nm</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Heeehahaha on <SPAN class=date_text>01-23-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL...Val.. same feeling here

[Scadie]

nvm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <p>Message Edited by Scadie on <span class=date_text>01-27-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>CottonSteel wrote:AMEN BROTHER!  I decided about 2 months ago, I can't change them so I might as well be the best [I cannot control my vocabulary] Paladin I can be.  I will heal. I will ward. I will kill. I will do it.Nothing is going to bring me down.  Heck, I am up to MA now (well about 60% of the time).  I am not looking to take the agro from the Guardian - thats his job.  My job is stand there and hold him up and ward him and do what ever I can to make the raid succeed.  Matters not if I am not in the DPS.  Thats someone elses job.  My job is to be the best that I can be.  Someday, (even if it never comes) we will be victorous over all who doubt us.<div></div>I am ready for more more more more!  Don't cry - you knew the class when you came into it.  Choose your rate - pick your fate! (old Navy saying) well it is completely true here.Peace. Honor. Glory. Victory for all.<hr></blockquote>LOL - You are an idiot....nuff saidomg I am the MA sometimes, woo hoo!!!!!</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>PolarBear77 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Heeehahaha wrote: <div>meh.. nm</div> <p>Message Edited by Heeehahaha on <span class="date_text">01-23-2007</span> <span class="time_text">11:09 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>LOL...Val.. same feeling here<hr></blockquote>Now I wish I knew what was said....lol</div>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>well for one thing. it seems that a developer has read the forums to an extent, and what the majority say must be true....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i now know this, as i have/had a lvl 70 paladin that was geared decent, i played him as a utility class, and also mt'ed at times..  when i mt'ed with him i got so aggravated with the interupts, and fizzles it made me purely sick, and frustrated me to the point i had to take a break from the paladin...  i thought the eof release would be the week i would play him some more, but that was not the case...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with the anticipation of EoF and the lack of interest the developers had shown the paladin class in the past, i did what a few suggested, i rolled a beserker... glad i did moreso than ever..  as after eof i couldnt stop playing my beserker...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now if this is true, that a developer has rolled a paladin, to see why the community is so despondent to the class, thats great!  someone listened somewhere....  but if this developer rolls it and only plays it to a certain lvl, say 50 we are in for another big let down... as the paladins downfall is from lvl57-70 as the paladins combat arts/spells/buffs dont scale to the t7 content, and post eof its even worse now than ever..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can promise you if the developer plays out the paladin to t7 he will see many problems with the class, now if the problems are fixed is another story, as this class hasnt had any good adjustments in a long while.. the biigest one i know of recently is when they fixed amends, and how long did that take?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>from playing a beserker, and knowing a few guardians, both class's do not get interupted, bruisers/monks dont get interupted either ,ever!!!!  this would be a big change to a paladin, and add in a power consumption adjustment, and these 2 changes would be a good start.. i could go on and on..  but i hope the developer has his notepad and pen handy when he gets to lvl57 and above... especially if hes equipping his paladin with armor and items that are the normal during gameplay, and not totally fabling him out to start with, that makes a huge difference.. but still, put a guardian in the same equipment, say xegonite, and see which can still tank better .. and then go to the player creation screen and read what a paladin is suppose to be!!!!  get my point?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>alot of people on here have disagreed with me in the past, and i could care less..but alot of them are stating the same things i have in the past, and i just laugh about it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i will always respect the paladin class, as i know the aggravation that comes with playing the class.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>maybe its the paladins time for adjustments, but i highly doubt it !!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/brings the soda pop</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by ChopStix on <SPAN class=date_text>01-24-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:08 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:16 AM</span>

[kellan123]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>CottonSteel wrote:AMEN BROTHER!  I decided about 2 months ago, I can't change them so I might as well be the best [I cannot control my vocabulary] Paladin I can be.  I will heal. I will ward. I will kill. I will do it.Nothing is going to bring me down.  Heck, I am up to MA now (well about 60% of the time).  I am not looking to take the agro from the Guardian - thats his job.  My job is stand there and hold him up and ward him and do what ever I can to make the raid succeed.  Matters not if I am not in the DPS.  Thats someone elses job.  My job is to be the best that I can be.  Someday, (even if it never comes) we will be victorous over all who doubt us.<div></div>I am ready for more more more more!  Don't cry - you knew the class when you came into it.  Choose your rate - pick your fate! (old Navy saying) well it is completely true here.Peace. Honor. Glory. Victory for all.<hr></blockquote>LOL - You are an idiot....nuff saidomg I am the MA sometimes, woo hoo!!!!!</div><hr></blockquote>It's "paladins" like you that caused me to start this thread. Laugh at him, call him an idtiot....very constructive.It's "paladins" like you that demand respect, simply because you play a lot. Ha! Experience may help you get there, but it's not enough to perform. You're the ones that give us a bad name. You spout your filth about how we suck, thinking it will change things. It's a crutch. It's an excuse. People hear you whining about what everyone else gets and they take that at face value. I started this thread saying, let's pull together and figure out what we want and let's go after it. It's been derailed by someone with gear questions and now been reduced to name-calling. Have you seen what the bards are doing? They have a constructive thread that details what they want changed (think, petition).What do I see? The same [Removed for Content] that I was talking about, it's just more ironic because it FOLLOWS MY THREAD."lolo ura idiot!1!one!1   I raid all day long and I know everything and those who think we don't suck, suck. Now I'm going to get back to my sucky paladin that I hate."/clap Phov. Bravo.You know what you'll do now? You'll lash out at me, because that's all you know how to do when your back is to the wall. Some "paladin", you are."Meh" is right. I give up. Can't say I didn't try.</div>

[MeridianR]

If you are caught up in your class so much that you think Paladins have to post like they are Holy Warriors or some stuff like that, I just can't help but laugh at you.Please don't go into the whole subject of having no life and only raiding, because then you are going to just make yourself look like a fool.  There are a few of us that have asked NUMEROUS times for constructive changes to take place.  We have given examples, we have given ideas, and lastly we have supported these through the use of facts.  Nothing has changed.  Please go back and look through the Live Updates to show the last positive Paladin only change that has been implimented to help us tank.  While you might think that being able to do 3 things subpar is good, the fact of the matter is being a jack of all trades / master of none in a MMO is like taking your hot cousin to the prom.  Sure you might be envied by some people, but perception in this case is not reality.So please post about how we own so much, when in fact you might own to the lackluster people you play with.  For the higher end Paladins though, we know we are what we are.  The only reason a top tiered guild has a Paladin is because they are the cream of the crop at playing the game.  Anything we can do, others CAN and do, do better....so excuse me if I don't have the rose colored glasses look at the class that you do.<div></div>

[therodge]

<P>Gotta say the OP is 100% right i think their is something to be said about being proud of yourself and accomplishments.</P> <P>I say if you think your class sucks then eather change you class or come to the realization that you were stupid enough to pick a class that seems to be exsacally as it was said to be prebeta and  i quote "all fighters will be able to tank equally but excell in diffrent situations" yeah guardians tank better in raids, but i dare you find an equally geared guardian that offers more to a group then me.  if anyone got screwed as a fighter it was monks but even they dont complain as much as paladins do. </P> <P>I love my class i love my choice i have rolled alts but none hold up the challenge if skill i have seen paladins of better gear fall to a mob i soloed easily becuase crusaders are a class of skill. wanna be a well rounded class be a paladin wanna be a raid tank roll a guardian wanna be dps roll a wizard. thats how the game works improvements can always be made, and no class is perfect but i enjoy my class, so sue me for being happy.</P>

[Arraza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>If you are caught up in your class so much that you think Paladins have to post like they are Holy Warriors or some stuff like that, I just can't help but laugh at you.<BR><BR>Please don't go into the whole subject of having no life and only raiding, because then you are going to just make yourself look like a fool.  <BR><BR>There are a few of us that have asked NUMEROUS times for constructive changes to take place.  We have given examples, we have given ideas, and lastly we have supported these through the use of facts.  Nothing has changed.  Please go back and look through the Live Updates to show the last positive Paladin only change that has been implimented to help us tank.  <STRONG><FONT color=#cc0000>While you might think that being able to do 3 things subpar is good, the fact of the matter is being a jack of all trades / master of none in a MMO is like taking your hot cousin to the prom.</FONT></STRONG>  Sure you might be envied by some people, but perception in this case is not reality.<BR><BR>So please post about how we own so much, when in fact you might own to the lackluster people you play with.  For the higher end Paladins though, we know we are what we are.  The only reason a top tiered guild has a Paladin is because they are the cream of the crop at playing the game.  Anything we can do, others CAN and do, do better....so excuse me if I don't have the rose colored glasses look at the class that you do.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What is if its your 3rd cousin?

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>therodge wrote:<div></div> <p>Gotta say the OP is 100% right i think their is something to be said about being proud of yourself and accomplishments.</p> <p>I say if you think your class sucks then eather change you class or come to the realization that you were stupid enough to pick a class that seems to be exsacally as it was said to be prebeta and  i quote "all fighters will be able to tank equally but excell in diffrent situations" yeah guardians tank better in raids, but i dare you find an equally geared guardian that offers more to a group then me.  if anyone got screwed as a fighter it was monks but even they dont complain as much as paladins do. </p> <p>I love my class i love my choice i have rolled alts but none hold up the challenge if skill i have seen paladins of better gear fall to a mob i soloed easily becuase crusaders are a class of skill. wanna be a well rounded class be a paladin wanna be a raid tank roll a guardian wanna be dps roll a wizard. thats how the game works improvements can always be made, and no class is perfect but i enjoy my class, so sue me for being happy.</p><hr></blockquote>For the love of god, can you please learn to read.  People's complaints are with RAIDING PALADINS......please read that statement 10 times, and then notice nobody is complaining about solo or grouping.</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wintermute218 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:If you are caught up in your class so much that you think Paladins have to post like they are Holy Warriors or some stuff like that, I just can't help but laugh at you.Please don't go into the whole subject of having no life and only raiding, because then you are going to just make yourself look like a fool.  There are a few of us that have asked NUMEROUS times for constructive changes to take place.  We have given examples, we have given ideas, and lastly we have supported these through the use of facts.  Nothing has changed.  Please go back and look through the Live Updates to show the last positive Paladin only change that has been implimented to help us tank.  <strong><font color="#cc0000">While you might think that being able to do 3 things subpar is good, the fact of the matter is being a jack of all trades / master of none in a MMO is like taking your hot cousin to the prom.</font></strong>  Sure you might be envied by some people, but perception in this case is not reality.So please post about how we own so much, when in fact you might own to the lackluster people you play with.  For the higher end Paladins though, we know we are what we are.  The only reason a top tiered guild has a Paladin is because they are the cream of the crop at playing the game.  Anything we can do, others CAN and do, do better....so excuse me if I don't have the rose colored glasses look at the class that you do. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>What is if its your 3rd cousin?<hr></blockquote>Wait let me ask Sir Oliver the Truthful from a small tavern in Greystone yard!</div>

[MeridianR]

This is what Sir Oliver the truthful told me:Hark, young Phov the holy warrior.  It is with truth in thy heart that I answer thee fair question you have put forth to me.  If said maiden were to be your cousin three times removed, thou shall be able to put thy holy sword into her cave of good fortunes'.Well so there you have it.  Hmmm if anyone else has questions for Sir Oliver, I might be able to pass them on.<div></div>

[kellan123]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:If you are caught up in your class so much that you think Paladins have to post like they are Holy Warriors or some stuff like that, I just can't help but laugh at you.Please go back and look through the Live Updates to show the last positive Paladin only change that has been implimented to help us tank.  While you might think that being able to do 3 things subpar is good, the fact of the matter is being a jack of all trades / master of none in a MMO is like taking your hot cousin to the prom.  Sure you might be envied by some people, but perception in this case is not reality.So please post about how we own so much, when in fact you might own to the lackluster people you play with.  For the higher end Paladins though, we know we are what we are.  The only reason a top tiered guild has a Paladin is because they are the cream of the crop at playing the game.  Anything we can do, others CAN and do, do better....so excuse me if I don't have the rose colored glasses look at the class that you do.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is what I'm talking about.Please re-read my original post. I never said I was happy (in fact, I even talked about looking more longingly at my alts in a subsequent post), I said we should start acting mature and stop posting things like "devs don't care. we suck." because what exactly, is your intent? To garner sympathy? You think a dev [or any human being] is going to react positively to that statement? Is that really how you get what you want?There are some fundamental "golden rules", that I wish more people would bare in mind:<ul><li>    If you don't have anything nice [or constructive] to say, then save it, you're not helping.</li><li>    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.</li><li>    If there's a problem, but you didn't vote, you can't complain. -- Apathy denies you the right to an opinion.</li></ul><div></div><p>Message Edited by kellan123 on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

Sigh, man you are new to these boards....but ask any long standing Paladin if I have tried, and tried again to change things.....Don't take my word for it, take others who have seen me go to the wall for changes, and time and time again got nothing.  I have sent Devs PM's, they were read but never answered.  I have taken the be nice route, I have taken the be an [I cannot control my vocabulary] route, and neither does anything.I have offered to give data upon date, nothing.  I have offered a ton, but never received a response....and neither have others who have done the same.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>Kade, give Prov some credit.  He has long been one of the more vocal (and normally constructive) members of the paladin community.  He was even thrown out of EoF beta because he had the nerve to disagree with the devs in a vocal manner.</P> <P>In all honesty, I believe his comment was in sarcasm congratulating the guy in thinking being a MA was some sort of goal to be proud of.</P>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>Sigh, man you are new to these boards....but ask any long standing Paladin if I have tried, and tried again to change things.....<BR><BR>Don't take my word for it, take others who have seen me go to the wall for changes, and time and time again got nothing.  I have sent Devs PM's, they were read but never answered.  I have taken the be nice route, I have taken the be an [I cannot control my vocabulary] route, and neither does anything.<BR><BR>I have offered to give data upon date, nothing.  I have offered a ton, but never received a response....and neither have others who have done the same.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Hrm, you mean other Paladins have been fighting the good fight for upwards of 2 years now?<BR>On these very boards?</P> <P>Blasphemy!</P> <P>Oh, and by, Im totally stealing your quote...</P>

[Arraza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>If you are caught up in your class so much that you think Paladins have to post like they are Holy Warriors or some stuff like that, I just can't help but laugh at you.<BR><BR>Please go back and look through the Live Updates to show the last positive Paladin only change that has been implimented to help us tank.  While you might think that being able to do 3 things subpar is good, the fact of the matter is being a jack of all trades / master of none in a MMO is like taking your hot cousin to the prom.  Sure you might be envied by some people, but perception in this case is not reality.<BR><BR>So please post about how we own so much, when in fact you might own to the lackluster people you play with.  For the higher end Paladins though, we know we are what we are.  The only reason a top tiered guild has a Paladin is because they are the cream of the crop at playing the game.  Anything we can do, others CAN and do, do better....so excuse me if I don't have the rose colored glasses look at the class that you do.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is what I'm talking about.<BR><BR>Please re-read my original post. I never said I was happy (in fact, I even talked about looking more longingly at my alts in a subsequent post), I said we should start acting mature and stop posting things like "devs don't care. we suck." because what exactly, is your intent? To garner sympathy? You think a dev [or any human being] is going to react positively to that statement? Is that really how you get what you want?<BR><BR>There are some fundamental "golden rules", that I wish more people would bare in mind:<BR><BR> <UL> <LI>    If you don't have anything nice [or constructive] to say, then save it, you're not helping.</LI> <LI>    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.</LI> <LI>    If there's a problem, but you didn't vote, you can't complain. -- Apathy denies you the right to an opinion.</LI></UL><BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by kellan123 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-24-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kade,</P> <P>Not trying to be a jerk, but I agree with Phov and a lot of others on this subject.  I have only been playing EQ2 for over a year, for the first 6 months when I was leveling I didn't care, or was too n00bish to realize some of the downfalls of the class.  As I became more knowledgable of the game, and of my class and other classes I realized that we have some significant fundemental issues keeping us from being a "great" class, or even a good class for that matter in the end game.</P> <P>In that time, lets say the past 8 months or so I have *REPEATEDLY* seen good, knowledgeable paladins like Phov and others provide perfect examples of what our class is lacking, and how we can improve it.  This feedback, as strong as it was and solid as it was with examples has fallen on deaf ears.  It sounds lame to say, but I have reached the same conclusion as others that the Dev's really don't care about the Paladin class.  In my time of playing I have seen 2 combat re-vamps, 2 expansions and a adventure pack all of which have further seperated the paladin class from being a good end-game class.  Our class, and our abilities in many cases are just not thought out well enough to make a substantial improvement.</P> <P>Anyway, if you don't believe me or the others who are saying the same thing just do a search on the pally forums on these subjects and you will see *repeated* attempts at strong, rational arguments about what needs to be fixed... and in a year and all the changes, not one has been made.  you could literally take your results from that search and put them into a new message and it would be the same thing, but it would stil not get taken into consideration.  SOE has had ample time to look at and evaluate and fix the Pally class and they have chosen not to... take it for what it is.</P> <P>I don't blame these guys that have put WAY more time into their toons than even I have for being frustrated, I know I am and don't even have as much time dedicated to it.<BR></P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <p>In all honesty, I believe his comment was in sarcasm congratulating the guy in thinking being a MA was some sort of goal to be proud of.</p><hr></blockquote>Yeah it was.  It might have come off as being sarcastic, and I think that is what he took exception with.....I don't beat around the bush, it's just not something I like to do.  When credit is deserved I am one of the first to give it, when something needs to be changed and it's glaring that it isn't being looked at....well I am one of the first to point that out as well.</div>

[kellan123]

<div></div>Fine. I'm done.Continue beating your head against the wall. Continue to say the devs don't listen to you. (read: whine). It seems my attempt to stop this crap has been met with resistance. Those of you who do not understand, please continue to do the same thing. (for it's all you can do, apparently)Those of you who did understand, remain vigilant as integrity is what makes a man. (that, and a [I cannot control my vocabulary])My goal was to say: if you want a change, act better, or at least be satisfied with what you have been given."You can't reason with an unreasonable man."I'm sorry, but I got sick to my stomach when I saw the nancy-whining on the boards and I was a fool to think I could change it. I won't bother you guys anymore. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />btw, I never meant any disrespect to my brothers, only sought to make things better.flying frogs ftw<div></div><p>Message Edited by kellan123 on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>kellan123 wrote:I'm sorry, but I got sick to my stomach when I saw the nancy-whining on the boards and I was a fool to think I could change it. I won't bother you guys anymore. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>Thanks, it's not like you added anything to our community anyway.</div>

[Rast]

<P>Kade,</P> <P>I understand what you were trying to do and it was admirable.  But it's not something that hasn't been attempted before.  With Grim playing a pally, perhaps he will see the issues that the raiders have.  I know that group/solo we ARE fine, but that is only one small part of the game.  In order for this game to survive with the way they've designed it.  They either need to increase the max level once more than 100 people on a server reach it or have to make raiding a reality for every class (or eliminate tangible rewards for raiding...  I see that, yah right)</P>

[Arraza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR> Fine. I'm done.<BR><BR>Continue beating your head against the wall. Continue to say the devs don't listen to you. (read: whine). It seems my attempt to stop this crap has been met with resistance. Those of you who do not understand, please continue to do the same thing. (for it's all you can do, apparently)<BR>Those of you who did understand, remain vigilant as integrity is what makes a man. (that, and a [I cannot control my vocabulary])<BR><BR>My goal was to say: if you want a change, act better, or at least be satisfied with what you have been given.<BR><BR>"You can't reason with an unreasonable man."<BR><BR>I'm sorry, but I got sick to my stomach when I saw the nancy-whining on the boards and I was a fool to think I could change it. I won't bother you guys anymore. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR><BR>btw, I never meant any disrespect to my brothers, only sought to make things better.<BR><BR>flying frogs ftw<BR> <P>Message Edited by kellan123 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-24-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:39 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your falling into the trap you wanted us to avoid.  I think what you attempted to do was admirable, but flawed in the respect that several people have tried repeatedly to do what you are trying to do to no avail.  What you are encountering is a group of people who have done what you have asked repeatedly on a number of occasions throughout the past few years and have given up because of the lack of response.  One could be hopeful that if you try over, and over, and over, and over again that someone will finally listen and make a positive change... but whats the time limit or limit on attempts?  What is a reasonable timeframe to expect to see a response, or even a change?</P> <P>What you are seeing is an attempt to explain that many of the long standing pally's have tried to post detailed explainations of the issues and potention solutions, and haven't even so much as gotten a response from the dev's.  Seriously... do a dev track on the Pally boards and the only dev that has posted here in a year is the one about amends which had been broken forever before they got around to attempt to fix it.</P> <P> </P>

[kellan123]

I wasn't going to reply anymore, but I don't want you guys misunderstanding me. I wasn't saying "let's change the paladins in game", rather I was saying "let's change our behavior, which may get the devs to change the paladins....in game."Make sense?If you look at my posts in the past, you'll see:a) I have a lot of alts, so I have different points of viewb) I am a long-time lurker, as I started playing EQ2 upon release, but very seldomly posted until about a year ago, when my job allowed me the time to do so.c) I am not as high on my paladin as I once was, but I <b>elect</b> to see the positive and not the negative.d) I have grouped or solo'd maybe 1x in 6 months; I strictly raid. (received my Spaulders of Righteousness last Friday)I just got tired of reading the <u>paladin</u> boards, seeing people flame each other, saying the class sucked or that the higher-ups didn't listen, that we were gimped, etc...I got tired of the rants....so I ranted about that. It got convolutated. It was [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Let's kill the discussion. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Rast]

hehe, but if we didn't whine and complain, I'd be very Bored @ work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Arraza]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> hehe, but if we didn't whine and complain, I'd be very Bored @ work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right, I mean seriously besides finding out what eachother paid for masters, whats there to do except to complain about our class?</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wintermute218 wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Raston wrote: <div></div>hehe, but if we didn't whine and complain, I'd be very Bored @ work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote>Right, I mean seriously besides finding out what eachother paid for masters, whats there to do except to complain about our class?</div><hr></blockquote>Roleplay?</div>

[kellan123]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Wintermute218 wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Raston wrote: <div></div>hehe, but if we didn't whine and complain, I'd be very Bored @ work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote>Right, I mean seriously besides finding out what eachother paid for masters, whats there to do except to complain about our class?</div><hr></blockquote>Roleplay?</div><hr></blockquote>Roleplay about complaining what we paid for masters...</div>

[Rast]

nah, I play a very antisocial paladin...  a serious amount of angst in him...  course he is a creature of hate, so it kinda makes sense.

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wintermute218 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> hehe, but if we didn't whine and complain, I'd be very Bored @ work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right, I mean seriously besides finding out what eachother paid for masters, whats there to do except to complain about our class?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Roleplay?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So are you gonna be a pirate-paladin or ninja-paladin, Phov?</P> <P>W</P>

[Anavron Ta]

As you can see by my post count - I don't post that often - I usually spend the time I have playing the game. I have been a Paly from day one and have seen what the rest are talking about. There have been numerous threads and posts with data to back them up about the Paly's "problems" at end game. And after a couple of years of not getting any love from the Dev's some people have just stopped caring about it. Its a noble idea to try and restart a "one stop shop" for all issues concerning Paly's but I think most people are just either tired of it or have rolled another toon. Myself - I still raid with my guild and try to make the best of it - oh and I rolled up a Warden. Peace guys and gals. <div></div>

[therodge]

OH GOD PHOV please learn to read as usual you compleatly missed the point so let me sum it up for you. if you want to raid TANK roll a guardian if you want to be a great group tank roll a paladin

[ChopStix]

better yet.. if you want to CRAFT roll a paladin.. they make awesome crafters :smileysurprised:

[Nevar]

<DIV>Phov remember my tells about the community. Then ask yourself, Why do I bother?</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>therodge wrote:<div></div>OH GOD PHOV please learn to read as usual you compleatly missed the point so let me sum it up for you. if you want to raid TANK roll a guardian if you want to be a great group tank roll a paladin<hr></blockquote>Here is an idea, roll a Paladin in Vanguard so the collective IQ of the Paladin community goes up when your stupid [I cannot control my vocabulary] isn't part of it, kthx</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nevarer wrote:<div></div> <div>Phov remember my tells about the community. Then ask yourself, Why do I bother?</div><hr></blockquote>I don't know, seriously I just don't.</div>

[Nevar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kellan123 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CottonSteel wrote:<BR>AMEN BROTHER!  I decided about 2 months ago, I can't change them so I might as well be the best [I cannot control my vocabulary] Paladin I can be.  I will heal. I will ward. I will kill. I will do it.<BR><BR>Nothing is going to bring me down.  Heck, I am up to MA now (well about 60% of the time).  I am not looking to take the agro from the Guardian - thats his job.  My job is stand there and hold him up and ward him and do what ever I can to make the raid succeed.  <BR><BR>Matters not if I am not in the DPS.  Thats someone elses job.  My job is to be the best that I can be.  Someday, (even if it never comes) we will be victorous over all who doubt us.<BR> <BR>I am ready for more more more more!  Don't cry - you knew the class when you came into it.  Choose your rate - pick your fate! (old Navy saying) well it is completely true here.<BR><BR>Peace. Honor. Glory. Victory for all.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL - You are an idiot....nuff said<BR><BR>omg I am the MA sometimes, woo hoo!!!!!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's "paladins" like you that caused me to start this thread. Laugh at him, call him an idtiot....very constructive.<BR><BR>It's "paladins" like you that demand respect, simply because you play a lot. Ha! Experience may help you get there, but it's not enough to perform. You're the ones that give us a bad name. You spout your filth about how we suck, thinking it will change things. It's a crutch. It's an excuse. People hear you whining about what everyone else gets and they take that at face value. I started this thread saying, let's pull together and figure out what we want and let's go after it. It's been derailed by someone with gear questions and now been reduced to name-calling. Have you seen what the bards are doing? They have a constructive thread that details what they want changed (think, petition).<BR><BR>What do I see? The same [Removed for Content] that I was talking about, it's just more ironic because it FOLLOWS MY THREAD.<BR><BR>"lolo ura idiot!1!one!1   I raid all day long and I know everything and those who think we don't suck, suck. Now I'm going to get back to my sucky paladin that I hate."<BR><BR>/clap Phov. Bravo.<BR><BR>You know what you'll do now? You'll lash out at me, because that's all you know how to do when your back is to the wall. Some "paladin", you are.<BR><BR>"Meh" is right. I give up. Can't say I didn't try.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just got around to reading this whole thread so Forgive me.</P> <P>Its paladins like Phov( and myself) that know what it is like to be a "hardcore raid pally". Pallys are an awesome class and his opinions much like my own come from RAIDING. Personally I think the class is boring and I hate playing it. Id like something to change but like I said in my previous post that the paladin wont change unless something is bugged or combat is revamped.</P> <P>Secondly phov making fun of you comes from the fact that everyday their is another post of this type on our boards where some pally trys to act smart and start a " Whats wrong with us and how to fix it thread" It gets old. We know whats wrong and we have voiced quite a few times what is wrong and what subtle changes could be made to make it better. Now I ask you what has changed?</P> <P>As far as a bad name phov is the only pally ive talked to that actually knows what he is talking about. I enjoy his imput cause it is much like my own. We think similar because we have both been with our respected guilds for said amount of time and have seen the same things. He knows whats wrong and so do I. Phov speaks out like most of you dont unless one of these threads pop out. So im not sure how he gives us a bad name. Maybe cause he doesnt care what the devs thing? I have adopted the same mindset since being kicked from beta boards. It is paladins like you that give us a bad name my friend. Not the evil raiders! The complaints for paladins come from hardcore raiders. People who play the class at high end. The people that know we can be replaced unless you win heal parses like I do  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>You cant get constructive with 100 freaking posts doing the same thing. I am done with the boards unless I see a dev response so this is likely a goodbye ( like yall give a [I cannot control my vocabulary]). <BR></P>

[ChopStix]

<P>well maybe if a developer happens onto this forum, they'll see so much negative feedback of the class ,they might possibly do something about the state of the paladin class...  but from the responses and personal messages i've recieved from a certain, so called developer,  i highly doubt it....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>i just dont get it, they nearly completely overhaul certain other class's [shadowknight], and the paladin gets ONE spell fixed thats been needed for a long time [amends].. then they make a big deal about it in the update notes, like they did something for the paladins, whoopdedoo.. probably took them all of 20 minutes to do it..</P> <P> </P> <P>you would think they would get the hint of the low population of active paladins, and also such negative feedback in here, that something is wrong, but thats not the case..</P>

[therodge]

<P>I think is pretty apperent the devs will not be making the paladin a raid tanking class or atleast the best Raid tanking class,phov is right on atleast one point this whole thing has been talked to death and paladins havent gotten a real responce. Wonder why? becuase the devs see the paladin class as being right were it should be. now put yourself in the place of the Devs which are btw human and have emotions just like anyone else. they come read the boards see what the major problems are what is up with the community. now they do fix things that are broken (note amends wasent broken amends had to be ajusted do to game mechanics its a lower level spell so was overwritten by higher level spells yes this was a problem but it wasent technically broken) smite evil was broken they fixed it. Devs arnt stupid they know what is going on and they consider things most may not for instance the people who are on the boards expecially the paladin boards are genrally highly active high end raiders. most of the community is not highly active high end raiders, even though the most vocal of which are. so take into the consideration is that most of the community doesent post here. next consider that still a pretty large percentage hasent reached 70 im not gonna pull some bs number out my [I cannot control my vocabulary] as a fact, but id say its atleast 50% (alot of people will say bs to that whatever exsact number isnt important) which are mainly grouping, now take into account the percentage of which who are level 70 are doing anything past deathtoll now that is no more than 10% and probobly close to 5% or less now lets go into who on the paladin board is acually complaining we will say 90% of the top end raiding are complaining so we have what 2% of the entire paladin populace complaining about something most people will never see. and even those who are complaining say anything before high end raiding is fine.</P> <P> </P> <P>now lets say they do "fix" us and we can now raid tank just as well or better than a guadian which at that point will make us even more valuable in groups and make us a mean force for soloing (even though we already are) so now we have a class that is the BEST at grouping the BEST at raiding and the BEST at soloing so tell me were is the balance their. the paladin class is so diverse in its use people want 100 diffrent things and you cant gain anything without taking it away so the devs come down to this. if we make them the best raid tank what are we gonna take away some dps and some healing ok sure. 10 min later the boards in in flames that we are loosing any dps we had and are already  crappy healing abilitys just got nerfed for a mig bonus [I cannot control my vocabulary] ah blah attack yada yada yada yada. you cant please everyone all the time just cant happen.</P> <P> </P> <P>oh one last thing im sure no one will argue this point the Paladin class is one of the more difficult classes to master with a rougher learning curve than say a guardian/ so alot of people leave the class in twenties or thirtys becuase of that, and the fact that everyone on the boards scares any new  paladins away with all the i suck posts.</P> <P> </P>

[kellan123]

Yup, we've now come full circle...back to my original post.I never said I want to change the paladin. I said let's change our point of view. I said let's stop posting crap that's ineffective, rude, and generally worthless.Why do people play a class they don't like and haven't liked, and then pollute the forums with their "opinions"?Maybe it's time they moved on? The devs didn't listen to you? So what. You didn't appeal to them in a manner that they liked. Just because you didn't get what you wanted, don't spoil it for the rest of us.kthxbye!Think you're elite? Think you've been there and done that? Think you're smarter than everyone else? Save it. We don't need to hear what you tried and failed at. If we have energy to start positive threads, don't read them, because you have the inability to hold your tongue. You feel like it's your place to say "I tried and it didn't work, idiot." Why? I have no idea.<div></div>

[Nevar]

<DIV>Look man, its not my fault you dont understand how this game works. Are paladins broken? Yes or no. That is the question you needto ask before hoping to get things changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly how was my manner wrong on the beta boards? I gave constructive feedback on how things were working and they didnt listen. I then got a little more upset as they did the polar oposite of what we were saying. So im still wondering what ive done wrong. Ive started a few of these threads on my own and have gotten [I cannot control my vocabulary] feedback because yall for the most part think of me as an elitist so evidently I have no clue in your opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And im not spoiling it for the rest of you. I mean I am actually trying to save you time. Go and look up how many of these type of threads have come and died recently. Please take a look. It might open your eyes to what im trying to say. After you have seen many failed attempts at trying to be constructive you envolve into the FU devs mentality like me and phov have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope yall can do something but im just saying from my time in the game and tryingto be constructive, It dont work.</DIV>

[Rast]

I've always been of the opinion (more or less) that it would be hard for SoE to not give me what I expected in this game, since I had no expectations of it.  It is hard to disappoint when you expect it, it is easy to please when you don't.

[therodge]

nevarer beileve it or not what you just posted is in a way constructive note that their are no personal insults, note their is no direct meaning to PO someone. you made an argument without randomly adding a [I cannot control my vocabulary] you you stupid noob idiot becuase i am better than J00! see constructives easy its called lets not get threads locked and insult people personally becuase i disagree with them.thats just childish. (i have respect for your thoughts and veiws only becuase you can portray them with out adding random swear words in their)

[Wulfborne]

<P>I like my paladin. That is not in question.</P> <P>I like my solo ability. It's not the fastest, but it gets the job done.</P> <P>I like my grouping ability. I feel that I can stand up to about any group-based mob with no problem, and have great aggro and can even heal while doing it. Actually, I think Paladins really shine in this environment.</P> <P>From what I've read, most seem to agree to a greater or lesser extent with those comments above. Notice what area I didn't mention...raiding.</P> <P>I really do try to roll with the punches and find a good niche to fit into when SoE's vision of the Paladin and my own don't mesh up. I tried doing the tanking thing. On paper we look good... but in practice certain abilities simply didn't work as well. We put out less damage than other tanks, our wards/heals which are supposed to be our way of surviving large damage spikes are ineffectual, and some of our 'save the day' abilities simply aren't geared with raiding in mind. Our aggro can be ok... but the downfall there is that a huge part of it is entirely dependant on another member to generate for us. To become more viable without changing actual abilities, I'd love to see us tweaked so that: All our abilities became classified as combat arts. This would increase dps and allow us to use wards and heals successfully through the removal of interruptions. Mobs could still stun/stifle to break a spell's casting if it's really that game breaking. Lay Hands should be % based, so it better scales with raid encounters, and Divine Aura should actually work....ALL of the time.</P> <P>So then I went the DPS route. I often break into the bottom of the parse lists, but when I really open up and crank some good DPS... I start peeling the mobs off the tank. Smack, smack, dead Pally. No real suggestions here that I can think of... i don't feel justified in asking for any DPS, and definitely not aggro-reducers, since we're tanks for Marr's sake, sooo... I guess we're just designed to be high-medium or low-high end DPS at best to avoid ping-pong?</P> <P>Righty-o... Healing it is! (With a bit of DPS too of course). I'm currently trying to explore this part a bit to see how good at it I can get... Note this is only for the good of the raid, not because I want to be a healer, but because I want to be able to contribute in some tangible way to the raid's success. I am currently 3 AA away (2.5 really) from finishing the Heal line and adding a another heal to my list. While getting some decent heals in can be nice, and even save the day, it isn't going to make anyone a better tank (see reasons above). After I've checked out this possibility, I'll probably have some thoughts on it as well, but won't try to guess beforehand.</P> <P>Bottom line - I think many people are just tired. Tired of not having a well-defined role, or at least not being able to live up to the one SoE gave us when we rolled the characters. (Simply doesn't work in practice). I get tired of having to completely revamp my AAs and gear every time there's a combat overhaul or my guild wants to try to slot me in a new role for the raids. We roll and we roll and we roll with the punches.</P> <P>I still love my Paladin, and will play him till the day I quit EQ2. But loving your class doesn't mean you close your eyes to glaring deficiencies or stop trying to get some improvements made.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[therodge]

<P>maybe ignorance is my problem if this comes of flamish its not supposed to be, but what i see as a pretty common comment is "well we are not living up to what soe told us we would be" prolem is i never read a comment from soe on anything (atlleast prebeta and during beta) am i wrong maybe it was just me but this is what i got from the prebeta idea of tanking.</P> <P>guardian>paladin>zerker>= sk</P> <P>dps</P> <P>sk>=zerker>guardian>paladin</P> <P>heals</P> <P>paladin>sk>paladin=guardian</P> <P>utility</P> <P>paladin>sk>zerker>guardian</P> <P>now does this hold true not quite but it aint that far off</P> <P>current tanking is more of</P> <P>guardian>zerker>paladin>=sk</P> <P>i think we should be up closer to the zerkers in tanking in raids, due to their offensive nature but i think thats more of a nerf the zerker than up the paladin</P> <P>dps is as follows zerker>sk>paladin=to guardian</P> <P>(really depends on the player i suppose as far as dps)</P> <P>healings the same and utility is arguable but ill say thats close.</P> <P>so maybe its just me but my ideas of what was and what are really arnt that far off but maybe thats just me, if im wrong tell me i welcome knowlage but try to tell me why im wrong.</P>

[Boli32]

Actually out of all the tank even GROUP wise... I prefer to heal a Warrior (Guardian/Zerker), even at that level the difference between the classes is obvious. They just take less damage and can still deal out as much hurt.And that's from a healer perspective and I would wager every other healer feels the same.<div></div>

[Glerin]

<DIV>thought i might give my dibs what i thought about the paladins =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the past days i've read alot on these forums and seen alot of feedback about paladins that have been posted quite some time ago, and still havent been fixed.. asking soe for a reason havent even crossed my mind really, and neither to ask anyone else, but one thing about the paladin is... we're not good at anything (if you ask me that is, ask someone else, and they might say something else) the interrups we get are ridiculous (getting the ward up does help with that problem - for about 1-2sec), our aggro control can be discusssed (somehow i can't seem to hold it no matter what in raids, if the raidgroup isnt waiting quite some time before starting to bash out the poor mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>from my experience as a paladin, we can't heal that well, we can tank decently (i yet have to see a zerker to be chosen as a tank above me, unless his equipment is VERY well compared to mine)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>our little cousins the SK's, is a different story which i dont wanna go (been duoing with one since lvl 10 basically, and the differences in our classes is... just something that makes me go /cry)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but back ontopic.. so easy to loose track!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate the paladin as a class, but i love what we stand for, thats why i play this wonderfully weak class, I play on AB, and I just love to RP a paladin, from a raiding point of view, sure i get choosen out for other classes alot of times, but i yet have to see anyone complain on taking me with them on a raid, I can't do these awesomeness parses that some paladins does in raids (1,2k+?) the closest to that i've been is when i went all out in labs when the tank pulled 2x mob groups containing 3x mobs in each, i went to about 1,1k using all i had then...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when healing.. if i tank, i dont even bother, if i offtank, i only use my LoH or ward to let the tank get off some spells (if they have any) when raiding, i res, LoH, and group heal once in a while (been mainhealer for a dps group in labs, it can be done, its harder then what a normal healer would have to go through, but we CAN do it) i dunno about EH or MMC since i've never been to either of those, but i can imagine that it must be nearly impossible as a paladin to do any use in there, but so what? do you really HAVE to be of the uberness useage in a raid? why not do what you can instead, do it as good as you can, and enjoy the time, if i wanted to be a pure tank, i'd roll a guardian, i rolled a paladin to be able to do different things (which later on showed to be a mistake but hey, i was to high to bother rerolling when i actually figured it out), we have a harder time surviving then the other tanks in a raid? sure i can take that, but dosnt that make it alot more fun once your able to survive what none thought you would?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the class aint broken, it could use a few fixes, which we wont get since the devs dont listen to the OLD paladins who has been with us from the start, and whatever we new paladins come up with, im 99% sure the old ones have tried it, and didnt get a respond, it wont get changed until the devs try it out themselves and face the same hardship as all of us have, until then we just have to bite our tounge, do the best of the situation, stay unified and try and enjoy our class as much as possible! (yeah im a hypocrite, but hey, isnt it alot more fun when being friendly then hostile to the other little holyboys / girls around this part of the forums?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kind regards, Glerin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S if it just sounds like rabble its possible it is since im very tired atm and just got bored at just reading and wanted to say anything, but paladins sucks, until you make the better good of the class! i might loose aggro, i might not heal myself as well as a SK, or others as well as a templar, but i sure as hell can try my best and impress!</DIV>

[khufure]

SOE - is it that hard to add a temporary mitigation buff?30s duration / 3m recast - Divine ArmorCalling forth the essence of Valor, the Paladin raises his mitigation by 15% for 30 seconds.  Due to the concentration required, while using Divine Armor all healing powers of the Paladin are innefectual and cannot be used.<div></div>

[Rocksthemic]

I actually think the current EoF AA line (hero line, that is) is an attempt to placate the raid tanking paladin community. I have yet to try it out as I went down a mix of lines to get my ward casting faster, and my cure spell (which in Mistmoore castle groups is just pure awesomeness since it cures the whole group) Has anyone else tried out tanking with the increased shield effectiveness? I've been wondering since the block % is almost uncontested avoidance even against epics. I was hoping with parry adornments, etc this might make us comparable to beserkers at least in tanking ability on raids. Of course gaurdians would still be top notch, I don't see that changing any time soon, but at least pallies should be a viable second option, not 3rd or 4th as it stands now. <div></div>

[txleathertx]

<div></div>First of all...Hawke you are entirely correct when you say that we're tired of not really having a defined roll. I'm a pretty well equipped Pally...mostly fabled Labs gear...still to this day, when someone says in level chat they are looking for a tank and I reply...you know what we get most the time...oh you're a Pally...we're looking for a tank. What the heck...ok...so most don't view us as tanks, even fully fabled. So if we answer someone looking for DPS, then what do we get...oh, you're a Pally, we're looking for a finger wigler...ok, so we don't parse 2K....I can hold my own with a Monk, but yet they are considered DPS....Ummm...OK. Don't even bother trying to answer a call for a healer...yet in raid I can heal parse with some of the healers that aren't in the MT group. So where do we fit? I dunno, but I'm lucky...I've had a colorful history with my guild, but in the end, I'm always called to raid, I'm called for MA duty most the time, and they even call me up to relief pitch if our MT isn't on. When does a Pally shine??? When the chips are down and a raid needs someone to lean on. When the healers are giving their all and it's just not enough, a Pally can stand back and help. When the MT goes down, hit the rescue button and come out firing...We can hold the mob off our delicate finger wiglers long enough to get the MT backup, usually another GREAT pally has already stepped up and rezzed him at 100%...he can buff, get a couple ticks of power, pound his rescue key and we're back on track. I don't know how it is with other guilds, but we regularly have 2 or 3 Pallys in raid...all 3 with different visions of what a Pally is and does...we work well together...we listen to each other. I admit, when I rolled my Pally nearly 2 years ago, I envisioned a STRONG tank class, but we're for sure not a raid tank, but we CAN do it. So we're not the uberest of classes...we have our time to shine and that's when I stand up and rise to whatever is need.Adapt and Overcome my fellow Pallys. We can gripe all we want, and someone will listen one day. Until that day it's not gonna do any of us a lick of good to start sniping insults at each other. I think the best example of popping off insults comes in a thread that I started about Lord Vyemm falling at my feet....the very first response came from a Pally named Valoron...what he said was not needed, called for, or provide any benefit to this social organization...but all the responses after him is what we should be looking for from our fellow Pallys...words of encouragement and well doing.State of the Paladin is what YOU make of it....remember, you pay for the game, if you're bored with your toon and you wanted something different, then by all means level another class to 70 and roll with it, buy one off the exchange, or heck, offer to trade toons with someone you trust in your guild for a raid or 2...in the end, this is just a game....raiding is just an excuse to pop a top off a cold beer, chill with 23 other folks for awhile and maybe a some nice loot here and there, and have a few laughs....Jeeze folks really need to learn to chill.<div></div>

[Heeehahaha]

<P> The edit I made was needed, and called for.  What you posted was partly true, but it was also partly false.  Is there something wrong with me reposting it with an edit that would make it mostly true?  I have no problem with you feeling good about tanking Vyemm for the first time, congrats.  I wasn't trying to insult you.  It does annoy me, however, when people irresponsibly post false information that undermines the efforts end-game raiding paladins are trying to make for the class. </P>

[therodge]

<DIV> "reply...you know what we get most the time...oh you're a Pally...we're looking for a tank. What the heck...ok...so most don't view us as tanks," </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dude switch servers i, in ledgandary gear mostly, i have NEVER gotten this (scratch that got it once at 20 which was way back at release&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i get random invites to labs from guilds that are short people  and pickup raids. I'm in good standing with alot of people due to me being able to play my class. im guessing if someone asks for a tank its eather </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. a pickup raid on labs or LOA ( i can almost see this but if your fabled all you would have to say is im in fabled then your just dealing with ignorant people)</DIV> <DIV>2. a group (if anyone says paladin cant tank in a group then yeah thats just stupid people)</DIV>

[Anariale]

Again... Warriors get 2 ~1K mit buffs for 66% of the time.  Thus, 2000 * 2/3 = ~666 overall mitigaton.Changing Pledge to remove the penalty, and allow us to cast it on ourselves would yield a gain of 425 mitigation for Paladins all of the time.Why NOT make this change? 1)  It ONLY affects Crusaders to bring them up to par, as it would have ZERO affect on any other class.2)  Its still less effective than Warriors, so they can still feel [Removed for Content] and not cryReally a no-brainer to me... W

[Anavron Ta]

That actually makes sense - so we won't get it.... <div></div>

[RSZ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> txleathertx wrote:<BR> First of all...Hawke you are entirely correct when you say that we're tired of not really having a defined roll. I'm a pretty well equipped Pally...mostly fabled Labs gear...still to this day, when someone says in level chat they are looking for a tank and I reply...you know what we get most the time...oh you're a Pally...we're looking for a tank. What the heck...ok...so most don't view us as tanks, even fully fabled. So if we answer someone looking for DPS, then what do we get...oh, you're a Pally, we're looking for a finger wigler...ok, so we don't parse 2K....I can hold my own with a Monk, but yet they are considered DPS....Ummm...OK. Don't even bother trying to answer a call for a healer...yet in raid I can heal parse with some of the healers that aren't in the MT group. So where do we fit? I dunno, but I'm lucky...I've had a colorful history with my guild, but in the end, I'm always called to raid, I'm called for MA duty most the time, and they even call me up to relief pitch if our MT isn't on. When does a Pally shine??? When the chips are down and a raid needs someone to lean on. When the healers are giving their all and it's just not enough, a Pally can stand back and help. When the MT goes down, hit the rescue button and come out firing...We can hold the mob off our delicate finger wiglers long enough to get the MT backup, usually another GREAT pally has already stepped up and rezzed him at 100%...he can buff, get a couple ticks of power, pound his rescue key and we're back on track. I don't know how it is with other guilds, but we regularly have 2 or 3 Pallys in raid...all 3 with different visions of what a Pally is and does...we work well together...we listen to each other. I admit, when I rolled my Pally nearly 2 years ago, I envisioned a STRONG tank class, but we're for sure not a raid tank, but we CAN do it. So we're not the uberest of classes...we have our time to shine and that's when I stand up and rise to whatever is need.<BR><BR>Adapt and Overcome my fellow Pallys. We can gripe all we want, and someone will listen one day. Until that day it's not gonna do any of us a lick of good to start sniping insults at each other. I think the best example of popping off insults comes in a thread that I started about Lord Vyemm falling at my feet....the very first response came from a Pally named Valoron...what he said was not needed, called for, or provide any benefit to this social organization...but all the responses after him is what we should be looking for from our fellow Pallys...words of encouragement and well doing.<BR><BR>State of the Paladin is what YOU make of it....remember, you pay for the game, if you're bored with your toon and you wanted something different, then by all means level another class to 70 and roll with it, buy one off the exchange, or heck, offer to trade toons with someone you trust in your guild for a raid or 2...in the end, this is just a game....raiding is just an excuse to pop a top off a cold beer, chill with 23 other folks for awhile and maybe a some nice loot here and there, and have a few laughs....Jeeze folks really need to learn to chill.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Love this post, this is what paladins are all about.</P> <P>Want to exclusivly MT raids then roll a Warrior.  Heck, if you're any good at the game and run an elite guild it should take only 2 weeks of 24/7 powerleveling.</P><p>Message Edited by RSZ on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>