G [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING G

[PolarBear77]

<DIV>Glad to see in tipical SoE fashion they decided  to give us another worthless focus....4% to call of duty ......... get out of here with that trash............</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So glad we got a 4% chance to proc 250 damage on something oh and wait i bet your thinking <insert little girly voice>omg that is uber with the aa that increase it proc chance. /smack  Asuming most ppl took the wrath line and hero line to the end which leaves 8 points left over which should go into the single target heal then 5 into the ward recast b/c casting your ward every 9 seconds is to godly to pass up imo of course... unless your one of those paladins that think the focus on the bp is good and it will help on your healing abilities in which case you should have quit the game back in stormhold so i say G [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING G</DIV><p>Message Edited by PolarBear77 on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[Lord_Quaymar]

What's wrong with that? More damage, however small, is always better than less damage.

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> What's wrong with that? More damage, however small, is always better than less damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>omg /beats head on desk

[Rast]

<P>so the focus isn't great, you know what, it isn't supposed to be.  The focus on a piece of armor should not make and/or break the class, it is a bonus to the armor.</P> <P>Personally (though I'll never see it myself) I like the focus on the breastplate.  This isn't too bad either when you consider that it is a group buff, which means your group will be doing more dps in a melee situation (thus a reason to be in a melee group in a raid).</P>

[Kaleyen]

All I can say right about now is LOL HAHAHAHHA! Cause seriously, if I don't laugh I'll want to bash some faces... <div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>I think that proc does 10-15 DPS per melee in the group.<BR>4% proc is a 50% increase in proc rate.<BR>Thus, mathematically its gonna be 15-22.5 DPS per melee in the group.</P> <P>4 Melee, its 40-60 DPS up to 60-90 DPS.</P> <P>20-30 DPS... *shrug* thats not bad.  Its about on par with all the other focuses.</P> <P>W</P>

[Demoley]

<div><blockquote><hr>LordQuaymar wrote:<div></div>What's wrong with that? More damage, however small, is always better than less damage.<hr></blockquote>More damage, come on, if i wanted more damage to make the parse id have picked a [Removed for Content] scout, use your brain if one exists...a ward focus would have been perfect, taking our ward recast down, it would dramitcly help our tanking ability, after all we are fighters and last time i checked fighters were first and foremost tanks not dps....</div>

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>*shrug* thats not bad.  Its about on par with all the other focuses.</P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yup right up there with Focus: Reinforcement  right .....gg<p>Message Edited by PolarBear77 on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:52 AM</span>

[Anariale]

<P>Did I do something to [Removed for Content] you off, Maghnus?</P> <P>Its on par with most other focuses... not that great, but a nice side-effect.  <BR>Are there some foci that are far better?  Absolutely.  <BR>Are there some foci that are a lot worse?  Absolutely.</P> <P>Its on par.</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoley wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> What's wrong with that? More damage, however small, is always better than less damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>More damage, come on, if i wanted more damage to make the parse id have picked a [Removed for Content] scout, use your brain if one exists...a ward focus would have been perfect, taking our ward recast down, it would dramitcly help our tanking ability, after all we are fighters and last time i checked fighters were first and foremost tanks not dps....<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No need to get nasty about it jerkoff. There's nothing wrong with it....quit whining.

[Demoley]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>LordQuaymar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Demoley wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> LordQuaymar wrote: <div></div>What's wrong with that? More damage, however small, is always better than less damage. <hr> </blockquote>More damage, come on, if i wanted more damage to make the parse id have picked a [Removed for Content] scout, use your brain if one exists...a ward focus would have been perfect, taking our ward recast down, it would dramitcly help our tanking ability, after all we are fighters and last time i checked fighters were first and foremost tanks not dps....</div> <hr> </blockquote>No need to get nasty about it jerkoff. There's nothing wrong with it....quit whining.<hr></blockquote>im not gettting nasty im just sick and tired of [Removed for Content] noobs that dont tank that have a stand around dps/rez/heal role in raids to say its all ok, its not ok! and frankly top end guilds require alot more than most mid-low end raiding guilds, paladins are expected to tank if they are in a top end guild, obviously something your not used to you  or wouldnt be saying "its fine"</div><p>Message Edited by Demoley on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoley wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoley wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> What's wrong with that? More damage, however small, is always better than less damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>More damage, come on, if i wanted more damage to make the parse id have picked a [Removed for Content] scout, use your brain if one exists...a ward focus would have been perfect, taking our ward recast down, it would dramitcly help our tanking ability, after all we are fighters and last time i checked fighters were first and foremost tanks not dps....<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No need to get nasty about it jerkoff. There's nothing wrong with it....quit whining.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>im not gettting nasty im just sick and tired of [Removed for Content] noobs that dont tank that have a stand around dps/rez/heal role in raids to say its all ok, its not ok! and frankly top end guilds require alot more than most mid-low end raiding guilds, paladins are expected to tank if they are in a top end guild, obviously something your not used to you  or wouldnt be saying "its fine"<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Demoley on <SPAN class=date_text>01-22-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:26 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And who are you to tell other paladins how to spec and play their characters? Last I checked you weren't the final authority on how to set up guilds and their raids, either. What works for one person won't always work for another. What good is a tanking paladin when that guild raid already has multiple established raid tanks? If the paladin wants to get on that raid he has to find another niche to fill in the meantime, or he gets to sit there cooling his heels when all the big kids hit the playground.</P> <P>You're sense of "my way or you suck" is extremely short-sighted.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[Demoley]

<div><blockquote><blockquote><div><blockquote><blockquote><div></div></blockquote></blockquote></div><hr> </blockquote> <p>And who are you to tell other paladins how to spec and play their characters? Last I checked you weren't the final authority on how to set up guilds and their raids, either. What works for one person won't always work for another. What good is a tanking paladin when that guild raid already has multiple established raid tanks? If the paladin wants to get on that raid he has to find another niche to fill in the meantime, or he gets to sit there cooling his heels when all the big kids hit the playground.</p> <p>You're sense of "my way or you suck" is extremely short-sighted.</p> <p>~Hawke</p><hr></blockquote>i never said i was the one to tell people how to play there characters im just saying that people that have a tank role int here guilds keep getting shafted if your content playing the way you do, thats all fine by me, but i want more, im tired of getting over looked by warriors, a paladin with skill can go along ways in may different ways, but its a cold hard fact that 4% proc isnt gonna do much for us, add 2-300 dps to the parse...ooo! wow im so happy i wanna parse more...cold hard fact number 2 is why take a paladin for a 3rd tank when you can just take 1 guard, 2 zerkers, zerkers buff groups with dps, and can tank very well, we add heals, and if thats the case why take a paladin when you can take a warden...with all my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing done the proc is usless...a WARD WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER, take that how you want</div>

[Rast]

<P>ok, look.  I'd like to be a MT like the next pally but that ability can not come from a focus skill.  It needs to come from tweaks to the base class because all you'd do if the only way you could be a tank is with x set of gear, you eliminate any thing BUT that from our gear lists to be effective.</P> <P>the focus is a BONUS effect, it should NEVER be a REQUIRED effect.</P>

[Anariale]

<P>*shrug* I tank and am in a mid-raiding guild.</P> <P>A Focus to our Ward wouldnt do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to help us tank better... especially from a mob thats pretty much the end of EoF instanced content.</P> <P>We have way more fundamental issues that need to be addressed before getting all bent out of shape over a Focus on a piece of loot that very few people will ever see.</P> <P>W</P>

[BlytheSpirit]

I understand there is some frustration on this topic, but throwing insults and personal attacks around will only get the post locked or removed, so please remember to keep it polite, folks.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>Forum rules of conduct</a>"In general, you may post any material written in a <font color="#9966ff"><b>courteous and mature manner</b></font>, providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting. This includes material that disagrees with the way that we, the developers, operate the game. We will not interfere with the communication of thoughts and ideas as long as the presentation is <font color="#9966ff"><b>constructive and appropriate</b></font> for all those capable of reading the forum. "<div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Demoley wrote: <P>im not gettting nasty im just sick and tired of [Removed for Content] noobs that dont tank that have a stand around dps/rez/heal role in raids to say its all ok, its not ok! and frankly top end guilds require alot more than most mid-low end raiding guilds, paladins are expected to tank if they are in a top end guild, obviously something your not used to you  or wouldnt be saying "its fine"<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a noob for crying out loud and throwing around insults only hurts any credibility that you might have had and just ends up making you look like an ill tempered child.</P> <P>So...are you telling me that you cannot tank without this one focus? Is it game breaking now or something? It seems to me that Paladins were tanking just fine without out it and still are. So a DPS bonus IS just fine. It may not be exactly what YOU want but that's the way it goes.<BR></P>

[Demoley]

i tank just fine, i just find it bs that here we are a tank class, and we get a 4% proc, when guards get a reinforcement focus, with aa lines and the pants it takes reinforcement down to a 30 second recast which is just over kill, something a lil nicer than a 4% proc isnt too much to ask now is it?<div></div>

[RaistNA]

I think the big deal is this.  If your in a guild capable of taking Woushi or Mayong down, chances are your a tanking paladin.  Cause thats what high end guilds need/use.  VERY few high end guilds use a pally specced for dps.  For these pallys that have to go tanking, a minor dps mod, a completely PATHETIC dps increase like that is worthless.  Guardians get a focus for reinforcment.  Whats our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?  Nothing but a minor buff increase that does jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for our tanking. Fact is this, if your a fully dps paladin and you like that focus effect, chances are you arnt in a guild that can get it.  See a trend?<div></div>

[Demoley]

<blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:I think the big deal is this.  If your in a guild capable of taking Woushi or Mayong down, chances are your a tanking paladin.  Cause thats what high end guilds need/use.  VERY few high end guilds use a pally specced for dps.  For these pallys that have to go tanking, a minor dps mod, a completely PATHETIC dps increase like that is worthless.  Guardians get a focus for reinforcment.  Whats our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?  Nothing but a minor buff increase that does jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for our tanking. Fact is this, if your a fully dps paladin and you like that focus effect, chances are you arnt in a guild that can get it.  See a trend?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thank you Raistin for posting that in a way my stubborness couldnt <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[kellan123]

Made a new thread...<div></div><p>Message Edited by kellan123 on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 PM</span>

[Dasein]

People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <div></div>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR>People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If thats the case, then why are Guardian AA's oriented towards better aggro and better defense (i.e. the 2 main aspects of being a MT)?</P> <P>W</P>

[RaistNA]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I love when fools like this post stuff with such ignorance of AA's.  Go look at the warrior KOS lines, Guardian EoF lines, zerker EoF lines and Sk EoF lines, then rethink ur logic a bit</div>

[Mgunner]

<P>the problem is that they give us a focus that increases healing, or an AA that increase DPS, or an ability to make us tank better, etc. We'll always be third class citizens because  we can't spec entirely for one aspect. SOE has given us no choice to which direction we can play our toon. They insist on forcing us down all the paths, and don't allow enough flexibility to play a specific role. It's not much different than how our stats work. They have forced us to increase all of them equally. </P> <P>I've stated before, you can be a healing pally, dps pally, or a tank pally. So a focus can in theory alienate 2/3 of the community. </P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Do you EVER post anything that EVER has any valid information in it?I am truly sorry, but 4% to CoD is a waste of a Focus.   The 80 secs off of Celestial Touch, well that is a wasted focus as well BUT other foci (I love that word) on BP's aren't the greatest either...but to see a time reduction on Reinforcement from Guardians and then this crap is another slap in the face.The people saying the focus is sweet (no offense here, sorry if you take it that way) will never kill this mob.  Or they will kill it when the next expansion comes out.  So to a group or solo paladin a total of 14% proc is the shiznit... Viru said it a little blunter but he is right, the only true purpose we serve in a high end raid guild is being an OT.You think we are rez bots - nah sorry Dirges do thatYou think we are hate batteries - get another TroubYou think we are dps - get any other Scout, Mage, Zerker or Brawler You think we are utility - ummm okIn a non hardcore guild, SURE we can fill these roles and excel at them, no problems....but I don't see a non hardcore raiding guild killing Woushi for months and months.  So in that time, lets get this focus changed to something more useful and more people will benefit in the long run....rather then seeing this same post poping up 6 months from now over and over again.We (myself being a big part of this) have tried to get changes made to the raiding section of Paladins for months now, but when people who DO NOT RAID keep saying "We are fine", or "OMG Paladins are so overpowered", etc, etc, etc....the people who look over things see it and believe everything is fine.So for once, since this group of people are not the people who are arguing the loudest about this Focus....please let us have our say.Thanks!</div>

[RaistNA]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Do you EVER post anything that EVER has any valid information in it?I am truly sorry, but 4% to CoD is a waste of a Focus.   The 80 secs off of Celestial Touch, well that is a wasted focus as well BUT other foci (I love that word) on BP's aren't the greatest either...but to see a time reduction on Reinforcement from Guardians and then this crap is another slap in the face.The people saying the focus is sweet (no offense here, sorry if you take it that way) will never kill this mob.  Or they will kill it when the next expansion comes out.  So to a group or solo paladin a total of 14% proc is the shiznit... Viru said it a little blunter but he is right, the only true purpose we serve in a high end raid guild is being an OT.You think we are rez bots - nah sorry Dirges do thatYou think we are hate batteries - get another TroubYou think we are dps - get any other Scout, Mage, Zerker or Brawler You think we are utility - ummm okIn a non hardcore guild, SURE we can fill these roles and excel at them, no problems....but I don't see a non hardcore raiding guild killing Woushi for months and months.  So in that time, lets get this focus changed to something more useful and more people will benefit in the long run....rather then seeing this same post poping up 6 months from now over and over again.We (myself being a big part of this) have tried to get changes made to the raiding section of Paladins for months now, but when people who DO NOT RAID keep saying "We are fine", or "OMG Paladins are so overpowered", etc, etc, etc....the people who look over things see it and believe everything is fine.So for once, since this group of people are not the people who are arguing the loudest about this Focus....please let us have our say.Thanks!</div><hr></blockquote>/agree with everything said.</div>

[equinoxio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR>People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do you EVER post anything that EVER has any valid information in it?<BR><BR>I am truly sorry, but 4% to CoD is a waste of a Focus.   The 80 secs off of Celestial Touch, well that is a wasted focus as well BUT other foci (I love that word) on BP's aren't the greatest either...but to see a time reduction on Reinforcement from Guardians and then this crap is another slap in the face.<BR><BR>The people saying the focus is sweet (no offense here, sorry if you take it that way) will never kill this mob.  Or they will kill it when the next expansion comes out.  So to a group or solo paladin a total of 14% proc is the shiznit... Viru said it a little blunter but he is right, the only true purpose we serve in a high end raid guild is being an OT.<BR><BR>You think we are rez bots - nah sorry Dirges do that<BR>You think we are hate batteries - get another Troub<BR>You think we are dps - get any other Scout, Mage, Zerker or Brawler <BR>You think we are utility - ummm ok<BR><BR>In a non hardcore guild, SURE we can fill these roles and excel at them, no problems....but I don't see a non hardcore raiding guild killing Woushi for months and months.  So in that time, lets get this focus changed to something more useful and more people will benefit in the long run....rather then seeing this same post poping up 6 months from now over and over again.<BR><BR>We (myself being a big part of this) have tried to get changes made to the raiding section of Paladins for months now, but when people who DO NOT RAID keep saying "We are fine", or "OMG Paladins are so overpowered", etc, etc, etc....the people who look over things see it and believe everything is fine.<BR><BR>So for once, since this group of people are not the people who are arguing the loudest about this Focus....please let us have our say.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Couldnt be said better, solo/group paladins are good, but raid paladins could use some help, were not suppose to be guardians, but like other has said our wards/heals dont make up for all the stuff they have.</P> <P>FYI an Inquisitor can solo better than a paladin...</P>

[Mgunner]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR>People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do you EVER post anything that EVER has any valid information in it?<BR><BR>I am truly sorry, but 4% to CoD is a waste of a Focus.   The 80 secs off of Celestial Touch, well that is a wasted focus as well BUT other foci (I love that word) on BP's aren't the greatest either...but to see a time reduction on Reinforcement from Guardians and then this crap is another slap in the face.<BR><BR>The people saying the focus is sweet (no offense here, sorry if you take it that way) will never kill this mob.  Or they will kill it when the next expansion comes out.  So to a group or solo paladin a total of 14% proc is the shiznit... Viru said it a little blunter but he is right, the only true purpose we serve in a high end raid guild is being an OT.<BR><BR>You think we are rez bots - nah sorry Dirges do that<BR>You think we are hate batteries - get another Troub<BR>You think we are dps - get any other Scout, Mage, Zerker or Brawler <BR>You think we are utility - ummm ok<BR><BR>In a non hardcore guild, SURE we can fill these roles and excel at them, no problems....but I don't see a non hardcore raiding guild killing Woushi for months and months.  So in that time, lets get this focus changed to something more useful and more people will benefit in the long run....rather then seeing this same post poping up 6 months from now over and over again.<BR><BR>We (myself being a big part of this) have tried to get changes made to the raiding section of Paladins for months now, but when people who DO NOT RAID keep saying "We are fine", or "OMG Paladins are so overpowered", etc, etc, etc....the people who look over things see it and believe everything is fine.<BR><BR>So for once, since this group of people are not the people who are arguing the loudest about this Focus....please let us have our say.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>/agree with everything said.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I also agree. </DIV> <DIV>Add the following:</DIV> <DIV>you think we are healers - get any healer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They may have made a paladin a decent solo class, and a good group player, but unfortunately they made the hard core raiding pally very pathetic.</DIV>

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR>People need to realize what the purpose of AAs are. AAs are not intended to augment core abilities of a class - plate tanks should not expect AAs to make them better at tanking. This means no direct improvements to taunts or mitigation. Rather, AAs are designed to augmentsecondary and tertiary abilities - in the case of paladins, this means healing and DPS.If you understand what the purpose of AAs are, you will see that the pally AA lines are quite good. In fact, things like the 24% boost to shield effectiveness and increased duration on Sigil are very good for tanking. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do you EVER post anything that EVER has any valid information in it?<BR><BR>I am truly sorry, but 4% to CoD is a waste of a Focus.   The 80 secs off of Celestial Touch, well that is a wasted focus as well BUT other foci (I love that word) on BP's aren't the greatest either...but to see a time reduction on Reinforcement from Guardians and then this crap is another slap in the face.<BR><BR>The people saying the focus is sweet (no offense here, sorry if you take it that way) will never kill this mob.  Or they will kill it when the next expansion comes out.  So to a group or solo paladin a total of 14% proc is the shiznit... Viru said it a little blunter but he is right, the only true purpose we serve in a high end raid guild is being an OT.<BR><BR>You think we are rez bots - nah sorry Dirges do that<BR>You think we are hate batteries - get another Troub<BR>You think we are dps - get any other Scout, Mage, Zerker or Brawler <BR>You think we are utility - ummm ok<BR><BR>In a non hardcore guild, SURE we can fill these roles and excel at them, no problems....but I don't see a non hardcore raiding guild killing Woushi for months and months.  So in that time, lets get this focus changed to something more useful and more people will benefit in the long run....rather then seeing this same post poping up 6 months from now over and over again.<BR><BR>We (myself being a big part of this) have tried to get changes made to the raiding section of Paladins for months now, but when people who DO NOT RAID keep saying "We are fine", or "OMG Paladins are so overpowered", etc, etc, etc....the people who look over things see it and believe everything is fine.<BR><BR>So for once, since this group of people are not the people who are arguing the loudest about this Focus....please let us have our say.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well stated and to the point /agree with it all</P>

[Rast]

<P>While I agree with you in principle Prov, I do not agree with you in application.  We shouldn't be looking to the focus of a piece of equipment to fix the issues with the paladin.  We do not need any *must have* gear.  The problems need to be taken to the core of our abilities and fixed there.</P> <P>Buy trying to use the gear to make us better, you limit the paladin class as a whole.  And to me, that can not be good.</P> <P>I will agree with you that the foci is not great, it shouldn't matter.  It is an addative to the armor and shouldn't make the armor a must to have to be effective.</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <p>While I agree with you in principle Prov, I do not agree with you in application.  We shouldn't be looking to the focus of a piece of equipment to fix the issues with the paladin.  We do not need any *must have* gear.  The problems need to be taken to the core of our abilities and fixed there.</p> <p>Buy trying to use the gear to make us better, you limit the paladin class as a whole.  And to me, that can not be good.</p> <p>I will agree with you that the foci is not great, it shouldn't matter.  It is an addative to the armor and shouldn't make the armor a must to have to be effective.</p><hr></blockquote>Well I agree, just changing this piece of gear isn't going to do much in the way of 'fixing' us....but it might be a good start./Start of Semi-RantI have tried for months (along with some other loud mouths...lol) to get certain things changed to our class, starting in DoF (though I thought we were pretty decent at the end of DoF), and then really trying to hammer it home with the advent of KoS AA's.  The KoS AA's for Warriors just totally and utterly destroyed us in ways of tanking.  Of course those same AA's aren't as great now, because of diminishing returns, but for 6+ months they were untouchable (or Unshakeable if you will <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) .  Now Buckler Reversal still is around, and I have seen our MT Guardian go from never placing on the parse, to hitting 1100+ more often then not WHILE TANKING.  It takes me having a decent group and going all out every fight to get to that level, and he is doing it while tanking.  Even with this though with a skilled Paladin in top end gear, most stuff was tankable and killable albeight with some more healing power.Now EoF comes up and another combat revamp comes to pass.  Now again we are in the position we were in the beginning of KoS.  This time it's because of the diminishing returns curve and anything over say 4000 Mitigation is pretty worthless.  So my self buffed 5500 mitigation in KoS (which was probably top 5 Worldwide) means crap, because some non raiding paladin in all Legandary gear mitigates like 2% less then me.....but the most vocal people get drowned out by casual Paladins who of course see nothing wrong with this because now there is no difference between them and Mr Uber Guild Paladin on there server./End of Semi-Rant</div>

[Rast]

<P>I agree with that Prov.  Me in mastercrafted shouldn't touch you in fabled, but then again, remember at that point 2% can be a major difference.  2% of 100 isn't much, 2.  But 2% of 10,000...  of 50,000?  and that two % begins to save you alot more than someone who doesn't have it.  I was one who believed it was a bit out of control before when I was seeing people push more than 10-15% above me in mitigation, but in true SoE style they knee jerked and went too far the otherway in response.  a difference of about 5% would have been good.  Then on those 10k hits, you would be mitigating 500pts of damage more than someone in ledgendary/MC.  That would have been a good spread.</P> <P>The real problem is, they didn't leave themselves anywhere to go with this.  The margin is so thin now that when the next tier is added, the effective spread will have to either increase (while the % difference stays the same) or will have to be even further trivialized.</P> <P>Still, looking to gear to fix the problem is the wrong approach and yes, I understand you've been standing up for paladins for some time now.  Only thing we can do is keep plugging for fixes and hope that someone listens and continue to exist as we can until then.</P>

[redi]

Totally agreeing with phov,raist and virutis.....i mean c'mon, the class pants and bp should be the best armor for each class obtainable and if i see that guardian armor makes reinforcement so ub0r and drops us down to second place in aggro.....then neither the celestial touch nor the call to duty focus gives me a little itch in my pants. matter of fact is: paladins eof-set armor totally shafts us w/o any lube and makes us more healer then anything else. and for those who think that focus us fine.....have phun getting'em in t8<div></div>

[Anariale]

Changing the loot from the last mob in Instanced EoF would have no impact on the Paladin class.  We need changes that affect us at the start of a the tiers, not the end.Ive been down the list so many times for what Paladins really need, but they fall on deaf ears time and time again.W<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>the only reason the focis are not good is because there are other, more core, issues with the paladin.  People need to stop looking to equipment as the fix to everything.  Yes, the armor should be well suited for the class but it shouldn't be the only choice for the class either.</P> <P>Would I like to see my ward boosted?  You better believe it and so do probably every paladin out there who's ever stood infront of a mob getting beat on.  It isn't the fault of the foci that this is the case, it is a core issue with the paladin.  Changing the foci will not help the class, it will delay the fixes that are truly needed since it would get the elite few to shut up while the rest of us continue to suffer.</P> <P>We need to get the class fixed, not the armor.</P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>While I agree with you in principle Prov, I do not agree with you in application.  We shouldn't be looking to the focus of a piece of equipment to fix the issues with the paladin.  We do not need any *must have* gear.  The problems need to be taken to the core of our abilities and fixed there.</P> <P>Buy trying to use the gear to make us better, you limit the paladin class as a whole.  And to me, that can not be good.</P> <P>I will agree with you that the foci is not great, it shouldn't matter.  It is an addative to the armor and shouldn't make the armor a must to have to be effective.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Do you think then post, or post then think?</P> <P>Ok ima try and attack this before one of the other paladins nail u to the wall and rip ur head off for another post.  First off no offense, but ur lvl 65.  Id be willing to guess that you havent done a single raidoutside of pickup crap with ur paladin.  You have NO CLUE what we are talking about here.  Look at the paladins ur debating with, all raid 5+ times a night, and are some of the best on their servers.</P> <P>The paladin class is FINE at its core.  Its what its suppose to be, a tank with healing abilities and dps power.  Not great, but it sure works for heroic [I cannot control my vocabulary].  Now the problem is this, the minute you start raiding hardcore, you're going to be an off-tank.  If you dont like it o well suck it up, u shouldnt have made A FIGHTER CLASS.  Now with that said, its obvious a high end guild needs a TANKING paladin.  So [I cannot control my vocabulary] cant SoE put TANKING EFFECTS on our HIGH END gear.  If your still primarly dpsing and healing, chances are your not seeing these legs, so u can stop commenting here.  What you have to say is null, and has no purpose and only angers every other paladin that reads it.  Shut up and go do another nest run, we dont care to hear how 'your the best tank for den of the devourer.'</P> <P>the Woushi leg effects are worthless.  I think what we are looking for is a focus effect that HELPS OUR TANKING.  How about increase % on amends or sigil....that would be more on par with focus reinforcment.</P> <P>Now that my tanget is done, ill go back onto your post.  You say they need to make changes to the core of our class and not sure gear.  You're wrong.  That would make us guardians which we dont want.  We just ask that the high end gear that only tanking paladins will see this tier, helps our tanking.  And you say the foci isnt great but who cares?  O i know, how about the people who spent 4 nights in that zone, dieing 50+ times to clear it, just to see an item with a focus effect that does JACK [I cannot control my vocabulary].  Ask them how much they care?</P> <P>If you arnt lvl 70, and arnt raiding on a high end lvl, guess what we dont care about ur input, its not needed here.  This thread is intended to get a dev's attention so they can see what the HIGH END raiding paladins are saying.  Not so they can see a lvl 65 prancing around 'oo we are l33t d00d, i can solo a 61 heroic so we are oober!'</P>

[Boli32]

If they want to make us a resist tank <u>publish the chance to outright resist a spell or a debuff </u>as it stands no-one know that chance - we can guestitate from parses and actions but we simply <u>do not know</u>... heck make it a skill we as paladins can increse with our defensive stance or something... we're never gonna make the parse, out tank a guardian. It was said we were gonna be the resist tank but heck I've got better resists as a healer as standrad and if you know what, if you know the resists of a certian mob you are meant to gear against it makes us useless as a warrior in relavent resist gear will still outtank us... so where does it leave us.Screwed, that's where.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>Raist...</P> <P>There are issues with the core aspects of the Paladin class.  Hell, if you think all the lvl 70 paladins here agree that the paladin is fine at it's core just talk to Wyrd a bit.  Changing the equipment isn't going to institute a long term fix for the class.</P> <P>I'm not saying make us a guardian.  But our supposed countermeasures to bring us to equal, but different, footing with the warrior classes is not holding up.  They say our ward is the reason we don't have mit, then we should [I cannot control my vocabulary] well be able to cast it during combat without fear of interupting.  They say our heals are the reasons we don't have the HPs, then we should [I cannot control my vocabulary] well be able to cast them in combat without, you guessed it, interupts.  We lack a means of mitigating the initial surge of damage from ANY mob, not just raids.  For this, it has been suggested (and I agree with) that our death ward should be converted to a high HP, long recast self ward.</P> <P>Yes, I am talking from a casual player position and the paladin is great for that.  But it isn't for raiding and that is what needs to be fixed and I'd like to see it fixed in a way that doesn't pigeonhole us into one gear set that only an elite few will ever have a chance at.  That in no way helps the paladins, it won't help our reputation, it won't help our tanking and it sure as hell won't fix the class.</P> <P>And I respectfully disagree on the no comments from those who aren't 70, it is a bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] elitist comment and isn't needed.  Just because I don't raid doesn't mean I don't read and understand the complaints being pressed.  I understand that there needs to be 'fixes', I just disagree in the application of those fixes.  You are asking the class to be limited in effectiveness to a single set of gear, how in the hell can you even think that would be a fix?</P> <P>Look Raist, I am not saying there isn't problems raiding, I know that to be true.  I am just disagreeing on how it should be fixed, not that it shouldn't be fixed.</P>

[Boli32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <p>Raist...</p> <p>There are issues with the core aspects of the Paladin class.  Hell, if you think all the lvl 70 paladins here agree that the paladin is fine at it's core just talk to Wyrd a bit.  Changing the equipment isn't going to institute a long term fix for the class.</p> <p>I'm not saying make us a guardian.  But our supposed countermeasures to bring us to equal, but different, footing with the warrior classes is not holding up.  <font color="#ffff00">They say our ward is the reason we don't have mit, then we should [I cannot control my vocabulary] well be able to cast it during combat without fear of interupting. </font> They say our heals are the reasons we don't have the HPs, then we should [I cannot control my vocabulary] well be able to cast them in combat without, you guessed it, interupts.  We lack a means of mitigating the initial surge of damage from ANY mob, not just raids.  For this, it has been suggested (and I agree with) that our death ward should be converted to a high HP, long recast self ward.</p> <p>Yes, I am talking from a casual player position and the paladin is great for that.  But it isn't for raiding and that is what needs to be fixed and I'd like to see it fixed in a way that doesn't pigeonhole us into one gear set that only an elite few will ever have a chance at.  That in no way helps the paladins, it won't help our reputation, it won't help our tanking and it sure as hell won't fix the class.</p> <p>And I respectfully disagree on the no comments from those who aren't 70, it is a bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] elitist comment and isn't needed.  Just because I don't raid doesn't mean I don't read and understand the complaints being pressed.  I understand that there needs to be 'fixes', I just disagree in the application of those fixes.  You are asking the class to be limited in effectiveness to a single set of gear, how in the hell can you even think that would be a fix?</p> <p>Look Raist, I am not saying there isn't problems raiding, I know that to be true.  I am just disagreeing on how it should be fixed, not that it shouldn't be fixed.</p><hr></blockquote>Hell yes!... add a line to the code making pallys wards/heals NONE INTERUTABLE, doesn't alter parses or anything but will alow us to use our "balancing skills" in you know ... tanking</div>

[RaistNA]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>Raist...</P> <P>There are issues with the core aspects of the Paladin class.  Hell, if you think all the lvl 70 paladins here agree that the paladin is fine at it's core just talk to Wyrd a bit.  Changing the equipment isn't going to institute a long term fix for the class.</P> <P>I'm not saying make us a guardian.  But our supposed countermeasures to bring us to equal, but different, footing with the warrior classes is not holding up.  They say our ward is the reason we don't have mit, then we should [I cannot control my vocabulary] well be able to cast it during combat without fear of interupting.  They say our heals are the reasons we don't have the HPs, then we should [I cannot control my vocabulary] well be able to cast them in combat without, you guessed it, interupts.  We lack a means of mitigating the initial surge of damage from ANY mob, not just raids.  For this, it has been suggested (and I agree with) that our death ward should be converted to a high HP, long recast self ward.</P> <P>Yes, I am talking from a casual player position and the paladin is great for that.  But it isn't for raiding and that is what needs to be fixed and I'd like to see it fixed in a way that doesn't pigeonhole us into one gear set that only an elite few will ever have a chance at.  That in no way helps the paladins, it won't help our reputation, it won't help our tanking and it sure as hell won't fix the class.</P> <P>And I respectfully disagree on the no comments from those who aren't 70, it is a bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] elitist comment and isn't needed.  Just because I don't raid doesn't mean I don't read and understand the complaints being pressed.  I understand that there needs to be 'fixes', I just disagree in the application of those fixes.  You are asking the class to be limited in effectiveness to a single set of gear, how in the hell can you even think that would be a fix?</P> <P>Look Raist, I am not saying there isn't problems raiding, I know that to be true.  I am just disagreeing on how it should be fixed, not that it shouldn't be fixed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You can make our wards so they cant be interrupted, that still wont fix us, same with the heals.  What is a 1.3k ward going to do when a mob just turned and looked at me for 6k damage up front?  Now its goign to do that damage a lot, fast and not miss too much.  Even if we can get that ward off we have to live long enough for it to cast, and then hope that its enough, which chances are it wont be.  And while all this is happening, ur little amended scout or whatever u get..if ur lucky (or ur unlucky and like me where u get a dirge to amends) isnt putting out the same hate as everyone else, u just lost agro.  So you're still alive, but prolly pretty beat up, and watching the mob take off for the dps/healers.  Guardian has their nifty woushi leggings, their reinforcment is prolly back up by now, so they can cast that, get agro back and keep it.  What do we do..."o man common proc for me baby, extra 4% u can do it!".  Extra 3 or 4% on amends maybe woulda given u the extra couple of seconds with agro to have ur taunts refresh and recast em.  OR maybe a focus on the leggigns that allows sigil to be cast cross group in raids...that would help our tanking out a LOT and give us a much larger role in raids...u know...that thing we all want...a secure place in raids?  It wouldnt make us overpowered, we could still get out tanked by guardians, but at least we would have a better chance at getting agro faster when the MT dies and its your job to pick it up.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

Sigil being raid wide for say 10 secs would be the bomb for aggro...lol, drop it when you get the Dispatch message in raidchat, and boom insta aggro!<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>Like I said, there are issues that need to be addressed.  I just disagree that it should be addressed with gear, that is all.  Gear should be there to amplify and customize our characters, not be the only way they can function.</P> <P>As for making our wards faster casting and non interuptable, it would help.  May not be the instant win button, but it would help and it is a start.</P> <P>Making our heals uninteruptable and faster casting, it would help, but again wouldn't be the instant win button.  Is it everything we need?  no, but it is a start.</P> <P>Giving us a 3-4k (I prefer a % based ward for this to be honest, that way it scales into the raid situation better) that is on a 2-3 minute timer (with the ability to reduce it with gear/AAs) would allow us to survive the inital pull better and would help.</P> <P>I'm not against getting better tanking ability with our gear, far from it as I intend on being a tank.  But I am against it being the only way for us to do it.  We have the same goals Raist, just looking at it from different angles.  I agree we need more to help us in tanking, I just don't think this is the answer.</P> <P>Right now as I see it (from reading things from Prov and Wyrd) what we are lacking in a raid situation is</P> <P>The ability to live through the initial pull, we simply do not have a way to either soak or mitigate the damage that a guard does in this situation on a non debuffed mob and our abilities simply do not scale well to raid situations.  If we can get those two issues addressed, I think we'd be ok.  Still not better than guards, but at least we'd be a viable option.</P>

[Rast]

and to be able to amends anyone in the raid!

[Boli32]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Sigil being raid wide for say 10 secs would be the bomb for aggro...lol, drop it when you get the Dispatch message in raidchat, and boom insta aggro!<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't think we need any help in agro.... heck if using sigil and amends on a pure dps we're 2nd in the hate list even without using taunts... sometimes first - I allways tell our raid pallys if they are using those skills to stand next to the raid mob with the guard as a couple of fussions down the line they may very well have agro and if they are they are standing next to him... the mob doesnt turn.Agro control... if the DPS know what they are doing and the pally is halfway decent you'll NEVER loose agro, the problem pallys face is surviving once we get it.</div>

[Kaleyen]

I cannot agree more with Phov on this zone.  Whenever a post is made in a more public channel (Combat Discussion, etc.) some level 70 Paladin in full mastercrafted rants and raves about how he can tank as good as a Guardian and help heal is group on KoS instance runs.  Then all crediability that the thread had going folds in a matter of moments and nothing constructive comes out of it. <div></div>

[Rast]

Yah, the two are well balanced through 1 group (and some say 2 group raids as well) but that is where it breaks down.  Our abilitys simply do not scale into a raid tank role, be it our wards or our heals.

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>boli wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Sigil being raid wide for say 10 secs would be the bomb for aggro...lol, drop it when you get the Dispatch message in raidchat, and boom insta aggro!<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't think we need any help in agro.... heck if using sigil and amends on a pure dps we're 2nd in the hate list even without using taunts... sometimes first - I allways tell our raid pallys if they are using those skills to stand next to the raid mob with the guard as a couple of fussions down the line they may very well have agro and if they are they are standing next to him... the mob doesnt turn.Agro control... if the DPS know what they are doing and the pally is halfway decent you'll NEVER loose agro, the problem pallys face is surviving once we get it.</div><hr></blockquote>Raid wise, I want my DPS going all out.  I want them to take aggro every so often just so I don't get complacent and I know they are trying to toe that line of pulling vs just owning.  We have great aggro when we have aggro....no doubt.  If we lose it, it's very tough to get it back due to having no snap aggro.Sigil being raid wide would be insane snap aggro for the 10 secs it was up.</div>

[redi]

i think before raist will explode on this thread, I'll give a suggestion to the forum mods: make class subforum for raiding and non raiding<div></div>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>boli wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Sigil being raid wide for say 10 secs would be the bomb for aggro...lol, drop it when you get the Dispatch message in raidchat, and boom insta aggro!<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't think we need any help in agro.... heck if using sigil and amends on a pure dps we're 2nd in the hate list even without using taunts... sometimes first - I allways tell our raid pallys if they are using those skills to stand next to the raid mob with the guard as a couple of fussions down the line they may very well have agro and if they are they are standing next to him... the mob doesnt turn.Agro control... if the DPS know what they are doing and the pally is halfway decent you'll NEVER loose agro, the problem pallys face is surviving once we get it.</div><hr></blockquote>Raid wise, I want my DPS going all out.  I want them to take aggro every so often just so I don't get complacent and I know they are trying to toe that line of pulling vs just owning.  We have great aggro when we have aggro....no doubt.  If we lose it, it's very tough to get it back due to having no snap aggro.Sigil being raid wide would be insane snap aggro for the 10 secs it was up.</div><hr></blockquote>same here phov.....but then I'll often get the: don't take the aggro off the guardian phrase</div>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> redict wrote:<BR>i think before raist will explode on this thread, I'll give a suggestion to the forum mods: make class subforum for raiding and non raiding<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is just it, raiders and non raiders goals do not have to be in conflict really.  While I am not a raider (though I will likely be forced down that line to get gear), it doesn't mean I don't realize that raiding provides unique issues to the Paladin class that us group instance paladins do not face in such degrees.  It doesn't mean I don't think we should see some fixes for those who enjoy that style of play, in many ways I agree with Raist about the problems that exist.  I even see them to a lessor degree as a non raiding pally, so I know they are there.</P> <P>That still doesn't mean gear is the answer when the underlying problems are still there.  If the gear was an augmentation to abilities we have, then that is great but it should never become a replacement for abilities we do not have.</P>

[redi]

<blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> redict wrote:i think before raist will explode on this thread, I'll give a suggestion to the forum mods: make class subforum for raiding and non raiding <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>That is just it, raiders and non raiders goals do not have to be in conflict really.  While I am not a raider (though I will likely be forced down that line to get gear), it doesn't mean I don't realize that raiding provides unique issues to the Paladin class that us group instance paladins do not face in such degrees.  It doesn't mean I don't think we should see some fixes for those who enjoy that style of play, in many ways I agree with Raist about the problems that exist.  I even see them to a lessor degree as a non raiding pally, so I know they are there.</p> <p>That still doesn't mean gear is the answer when the underlying problems are still there.  If the gear was an augmentation to abilities we have, then that is great but it should never become a replacement for abilities we do not have.</p><hr></blockquote>Sorry to ruin ur hope, but gear is the answer.......if a guardian has to change his gear for resis, we have to change gear for whatever we are doing(like dpsing and blah) and like virutis, phov and raist said: those legs will be only obtainable by end-game-raiders, where a paladin will be either a tank or a wasted spot in raid. and sadly, one of the abilities we don't have is self-buffing parry.......hello gear.Imho there's still a large gap between the opinions of raiders and non-raiders and though you see that there are problems, you haven't seen'em while tanking. It is sometimes even worse than described here, sometimes just whining. But I can say if anyone of the 4 paladins mentioned above says it's crap....believe'em <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Rast]

<DIV>Gear should augment the abilites, enhance them.  The issues with tanking have nothing so much to do with gear, but with flaws with how the paladin works in practice (in theory it may be sound though).  Right now, Paladins have deeper issues dealing with tanking raid mobs that I honestly do not think a single piece of equipment will help.  Saying that, I wouldn't turn it down if it were a focus on our ward <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Hell, at this point I wouldn't turn it down at all as it is better even as is than what I have <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But that isn't the point. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying that the ability is good, I doubt I would want it even for grouping to be honest.  But you can't expect a piece of gear to be the answer to our tanking defiencies.  And yes, I do tank.  I tank all the time with Jal as I'm the MT for my guild.  We aren't big enough to raid, or I'd be trying my hand there too (only have 11 active members and two of those are new to EQ2, so only in their 20s).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I'll admit that the set overall doesn't seem to be geared the same as it is for the guardians.  It leaves off one of our primary damage stats (Int) and over all looks more like armor you'd expect to see a guard want, not a pally.  And I'll admit there is an issue with the gear in general that is supposedly geared for Paladins.  But our issues are deeper than the gear and even if we got what we wanted in the gear, we'd still be no better off, because the core issues are still there.</DIV>

[Mgunner]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gear should augment the abilites, enhance them.  The issues with tanking have nothing so much to do with gear, but with flaws with how the paladin works in practice (in theory it may be sound though).  Right now, Paladins have deeper issues dealing with tanking raid mobs that I honestly do not think a single piece of equipment will help.  Saying that, I wouldn't turn it down if it were a focus on our ward <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Hell, at this point I wouldn't turn it down at all as it is better even as is than what I have <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But that isn't the point. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying that the ability is good, I doubt I would want it even for grouping to be honest.  But you can't expect a piece of gear to be the answer to our tanking defiencies.  And yes, I do tank.  I tank all the time with Jal as I'm the MT for my guild.  We aren't big enough to raid, or I'd be trying my hand there too (only have 11 active members and two of those are new to EQ2, so only in their 20s).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I'll admit that the set overall doesn't seem to be geared the same as it is for the guardians.  It leaves off one of our primary damage stats (Int) and over all looks more like armor you'd expect to see a guard want, not a pally.  And I'll admit there is an issue with the gear in general that is supposedly geared for Paladins.  But our issues are deeper than the gear and even if we got what we wanted in the gear, we'd still be no better off, because the core issues are still there.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't understand why you feel the need to consistenly chime in about a topic that will never effect you. There's no way you can give accurate advice or understand the whole concept of raiding. Raiding is more than just what we have. You need to factor in what every other person on the raid does. Once you understand what every person on the raid is offering, you'll see why we believe changes need to be made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our lab relic pieces. Neither of those focus abilities helped our tanking ability one bit. Same with EoF set pieces.  Hell, we have boots that add +7 Minitration. We had AA's added that did very little to help us tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is hope for you Jalathan. Once your level 70, and bored with your guild, you won't find a hard core raiding guild to join. Wanna know why????? Because they don't want Paladins. They don't need us. If they have one and he quits, they can live without him. Then, you will understand what my other pally friends have been saying.  Look at all their recruitment forums on each of their websites. Hell, even mine. We are looking for a second MT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently accepting applications from exceedingly talented players of the following classes:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><IMG alt="" src="http://www.axiomfiles.com/Files/89976/1Home.jpg">Shaman, Monk, Dirge, Guardian.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>

[Rast]

<P>MGunner,</P> <P><shakes head></P> <P>Just because I do not (at this point) raid, doesn't mean I can't know the issues involved around raiding.  I do have half a brain and I read dang near every topic on this forum, ESPECIALLY those by Prov and Wyrd.  I understand that Paladins aren't wanted in raids, but that doesn't mean that equipment is the answer, especially equipment you need inorder to get the equipment on the raid.</P> <P>Yes the foci are crap, would having what you want instantly make Paladins raid desired?  I doubt it because it doesn't fix the core issue, it only covers them up.  It is sorta like getting Pnemonia and only treating the cough...  it doesn't work.</P> <P>Do I want to be a raid tank some day, you better [I cannot control my vocabulary] well believe it.  Do I think I have a snowballs chance in hell with the way we are now?  Hell no.  Do I think changing some crappy foci to equally crappy tanking foci is going to get me anywhere to that goal?  again, no.  Do I think that changing anything about the equipment is going to make paladins anything more than a charity case for raids?  Again, no.</P> <P>Yes, I understand that raiding is more than just what I, you or even a single group can do.  I have actually attended a raid or two in my life.  Don't really like them, but that is another story that has nothing to do with the class.  And yes, I do understand that from a tanking perspective the foci suck, quite seriously.</P> <P>As to why I keep "chiming in" it is because I too want to see the class improve, just like everyone else who is active on these boards.  I just happen to think the issues are deeper than the foci on a piece of equipment.</P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gear should augment the abilites, enhance them.  The issues with tanking have nothing so much to do with gear, but with flaws with how the paladin works in practice (in theory it may be sound though).  Right now, Paladins have deeper issues dealing with tanking raid mobs that I honestly do not think a single piece of equipment will help.  Saying that, I wouldn't turn it down if it were a focus on our ward <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Hell, at this point I wouldn't turn it down at all as it is better even as is than what I have <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But that isn't the point. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying that the ability is good, I doubt I would want it even for grouping to be honest.  But you can't expect a piece of gear to be the answer to our tanking defiencies.  And yes, I do tank.  I tank all the time with Jal as I'm the MT for my guild.  We aren't big enough to raid, or I'd be trying my hand there too (only have 11 active members and two of those are new to EQ2, so only in their 20s).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I'll admit that the set overall doesn't seem to be geared the same as it is for the guardians.  It leaves off one of our primary damage stats (Int) and over all looks more like armor you'd expect to see a guard want, not a pally.  And I'll admit there is an issue with the gear in general that is supposedly geared for Paladins.  But our issues are deeper than the gear and even if we got what we wanted in the gear, we'd still be no better off, because the core issues are still there.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>naw hate to break it down like this, but point blank, wards and heals wont help.  Unless they make it nearly instant cast, and very fast recast, it still wont be the difference we need to make guilds want a paladin.

[Rast]

<P>Then suggest something other than a cover up to the problems with equipment.</P> <P>What do YOU think it would take to make Paladins raid worthy?</P>

[RaistNA]

<DIV>a third taunt</DIV> <DIV>a self buff for parry</DIV> <DIV>a self short duration miti buff, or group one i dun care.  Doesnt even need to be as good as the guardians or zerkers, just something to boost up our miti a few % after MT goes down and we gotta get it till heals are pointed at us.</DIV> <DIV>Pally gear that is +parry or +def</DIV> <DIV>Items with effects that do more then crap.</DIV>

[Anariale]

Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class.

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>guys srsly.  The funamental issue is perspective.  People put us next to guardians and expect the same results while tanking and it doesn thappen, so now 'the class needs help'.  No wrong  We arnt going to take like guardians, every, i think all the big paladins know this.  Our class is fine.  WHAT they need to do is take the pally gear..[I cannot control my vocabulary] even start with the relic and move on up.  Add stuff like +parry, +def..+block [I cannot control my vocabulary] that would be sweet.  Imagine that our class legs focus was +4% to block chance, id get off in my pants right there at that.  SoE needs to look at our class (WHICH IS PERFECTLY FINE OUTSIDE OF RAIDS) and say "ok wow they need a little help to find their place tanking in raids...we cant give them the miti of guardians cause they got cra..err i mean heals....so lets give them some shield block help".  THEN as we gear up, and advance through the raid scene, we arnt getting farther and farther behind the guardians as they get all their tank gear with huge mit bonuses and taunt foci's as we get minor dps increases on ours.

[Rast]

<P>Ok.  That is a good start.</P> <P>But how about we change it slightly to remain true to the paladin core.</P> <P>A third taunt.  Seems pretty logical, especially if it is geared towards snap agro.</P> <P>A self buff for blocking (leaving parry for the warriors, deflection for the brawlers).  Plus it seems to fit well with the AAs we already have.</P> <P>A regenerative ward buff (not a spell) that could be either self or group oriented that would provide a reduction of damage.  Basically in effect additional mitigation but in the form of a ward instead of raw mit, so that we don't step on the toes of the class that is meant to be the kings of mitigation.</P> <P>Pally gear that is +parry/+def fits with the defensive nature of the pally.</P> <P>Items with effects more than crap.  At this point, I can agree with you, since it would (in theory) be doing more than simply covering up issues, but allowing us to 'spec' out the way we want with greater effects.</P>

[Anariale]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>guys srsly.  The funamental issue is perspective.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, the fundamental issue is poor scaling to epic encounters, and no amount of equipment will solve that problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W<BR></DIV>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>guys srsly.  The funamental issue is perspective.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, the fundamental issue is poor scaling to epic encounters, and no amount of equipment will solve that problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If that was the issue, it would be appearant in all classes, which it is not.  Only paladins have this issue.  Are u suggesting we are on a different scaling curve then every other class in game?<BR>

[redi]

<blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote: <div></div>Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class. <hr> </blockquote>guys srsly.  The funamental issue is perspective.  <hr> </blockquote> <div>No, the fundamental issue is poor scaling to epic encounters, and no amount of equipment will solve that problem.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>W</div> <hr> </blockquote>If that was the issue, it would be appearant in all classes, which it is not.  Only paladins have this issue.  Are u suggesting we are on a different scaling curve then every other class in game?<hr></blockquote>Put Def and Parry on our gear and we're going to avoid like a young god......i give a [I cannot control my vocabulary] bout mitigation if i don't get hit, but w/o parry we're like a giant dartboard for mobs that hit us hard and often instead of hard and not so often<div></div>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>guys srsly.  The funamental issue is perspective.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, the fundamental issue is poor scaling to epic encounters, and no amount of equipment will solve that problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If that was the issue, it would be appearant in all classes, which it is not.  Only paladins have this issue.  Are u suggesting we are on a different scaling curve then every other class in game?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is exactly what s/he is saying.  Our abilities are all fixed value and do not scale to the astronomical values put out by raid mobs.  S/He put out a post a while back with all the numbers to support the position here on the boards, very good read really.</P> <P>edited for links to the posts</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=31771" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=31771</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=32094" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=32094</A><BR></P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 PM</span>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> Equipment is not the solution to Paladin problems.  There are too many fundamental issues with the class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>guys srsly.  The funamental issue is perspective.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, the fundamental issue is poor scaling to epic encounters, and no amount of equipment will solve that problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If that was the issue, it would be appearant in all classes, which it is not.  Only paladins have this issue.  Are u suggesting we are on a different scaling curve then every other class in game?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, Ive very clearly stated that since the Paladin's abilities are absolutes, they do not scale well to epic encounters.</P> <P>This is unlike Warrior abilities such as 20% DPS debuffs, Mitigation Buffs (which actually are "more effective" against higher level mobs than lower level mobs due to the mitigation curve) and Stone Skins (Tower of Stone, Stone Sphere), which do scale quite well up to Epic encounters.</P> <P>Thats the flaw in the Paladin class.  The curves are fine... its just that our abilties are not set up well.</P> <P>W</P>

[Anariale]

<P>And for the love of god, unless its like +30 skill levels, +Parry and +Defense do not add much at all in an epic fight.  Divide increases to Parry/Defense by 3 to see a realistic level of increase.  Parry and Defense are not why a Guardian tanks better than a Paladin.  TBH, Paladin avoidance is just as good (or better) against epics as long as you take the Hero EoF AA line.</P> <P>Its because they have abilities to better mitigate incoming damage, not better avoid.  <BR>Its because they have abilities to stop "Oh crap" situations and allow healers to catch up in sticky situations (or for the start of a pull before mobs are debuffed).</P> <P>W</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:55 PM</span>

[Rast]

<P>Wyrd,</P> <P>Just a thought here (and any of you feel free to shot me down, as I said, it is just a thought).  What do you think would happen if they made us the true kings of the shield?  Instead of giving us mitigation, HPs or defense/parry, they gave us +block as our domain.</P> <P>Put +block on our defensive stance and +block on our gear, especially since +block is the one defense skill that does work well against epics...</P>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>And for the love of god, unless its like +30 skill levels, +Parry and +Defense do not add much at all in an epic fight.  Divide increases to Parry/Defense by 3 to see a realistic level of increase.  Parry and Defense are not why a Guardian tanks better than a Paladin.  TBH, Paladin avoidance is just as good (or better) against epics as long as you take the Hero EoF AA line.</p> <p>Its because they have abilities to better mitigate incoming damage, not better avoid.  Its because they have abilities to stop "Oh crap" situations and allow healers to catch up in sticky situations (or for the start of a pull before mobs are debuffed).</p> <p>W</p><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class="date_text">01-23-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:55 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Block: ~27-29% of tower of stone(physical damage reduced to 0)parry:  ~if maxed 20% of full avoidance(physical damage to 0)avoidance: same as aboveso don't tell me parry and defense won't add anything as guardian gets both of em self buffed</div>

[Anariale]

<P>Realistically, you only get 25-33% of your Parry% against 72+ epics.<BR>Realistically, you only get 75% of your Block% against lvl 72+.</P> <P>Therefore:<BR>If you have a 27% Block chance, thats ~21% avoidance<BR>If you have a 20% Parry chance, thats ~7% avoidance</P> <P>Giving you +20 Parry is going to raise your Parry% by like 5%.  Divide by 3 and youre only getting  at most 2% avoidance from it.</P> <P>That is not going to allow you to survive the critical points of an encounter... at least nowhere as much as ToS or Stone Sphere would.</P> <P>W<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[redi]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p>Realistically, you only get 25-33% of your Parry% against 72+ epics.Realistically, you only get 75% of your Block% against lvl 72+.</p> <p>Therefore:If you have a 27% Block chance, thats ~21% avoidanceIf you have a 20% Parry chance, thats ~7% avoidance</p> <p>Giving you +20 Parry is going to raise your Parry% by like 5%.  Divide by 3 and youre only getting ~2% avoidance from it.</p> <p>That is not going to allow you to survive the critical points of an encounter... at least nowhere as much as ToS or Stone Sphere would.</p> <p>W</p><hr></blockquote>Blocking isn't contested at all.......and btw, +20 parry will do a bit more then 5% parry(+9 does 7,5) so even with dimnishing returns and so on.....parry maxed means an extra chance of ripostes, so with the + to all of these stats the survivability will raise extremely</div><p>Message Edited by redict on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[Anariale]

<DIV>Going from 350 to 359 Parry might give 7.5%.</DIV> <DIV>Going from 380 to 389 will give significantly less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even so, it doesnt matter.  Parry is not going to make/break a Paladin's ability to survive a sticky spot in an encounter.  It would leave it too much up to chance.  Mitigation, ToS, Stone Sphere are not chance abilities... they are rock solid abilities that you can count on to survive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, if they did give more +Parry or whatever to Paladin equipment, they would take something else away in return.  Gear is balance on the total abilities given to an item for that item's level and quality.  If an item gets +7 Parry, its going to have significantly less of something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong, Id STRONGLY prefer +Parry or +Defense over +Ministration, but its NOT going to solve Paladin tanking issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mgunner]

<DIV> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>MGunner,</P> <P><shakes head></P> <P>Just because I do not (at this point) raid, doesn't mean I can't know the issues involved around raiding.  I do have half a brain and I read dang near every topic on this forum, ESPECIALLY those by Prov and Wyrd.  I understand that Paladins aren't wanted in raids, but that doesn't mean that equipment is the answer, especially equipment you need inorder to get the equipment on the raid.</P> <P>Yes the foci are crap, would having what you want instantly make Paladins raid desired?  I doubt it because it doesn't fix the core issue, it only covers them up.  It is sorta like getting Pnemonia and only treating the cough...  it doesn't work.</P> <P>Do I want to be a raid tank some day, you better [I cannot control my vocabulary] well believe it.  Do I think I have a snowballs chance in hell with the way we are now?  Hell no.  Do I think changing some crappy foci to equally crappy tanking foci is going to get me anywhere to that goal?  again, no.  Do I think that changing anything about the equipment is going to make paladins anything more than a charity case for raids?  Again, no.</P> <P>Yes, I understand that raiding is more than just what I, you or even a single group can do.  I have actually attended a raid or two in my life.  Don't really like them, but that is another story that has nothing to do with the class.  And yes, I do understand that from a tanking perspective the foci suck, quite seriously.</P> <P>As to why I keep "chiming in" it is because I too want to see the class improve, just like everyone else who is active on these boards.  I just happen to think the issues are deeper than the foci on a piece of equipment.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>You can know the issues we have in raids, but until you experience them for yourself, you don't know entirely what your talking about. How do you possibly believe that our gear isn't a big part of this. The gap between guardians and paladins is getting bigger everyday.</P> <P>Let's compare the two classes EoF set pieces.</P> <P>Guardians, when complete</P> <P>get +20 Defense, increase in hate by 100, and 4% mitigation increase from stance.</P> <P> </P> <P>Paladins get</P> <P>100 hate increase, RC +65, and +10 ministration, defense, and wisdom, Symmetry X</P> <P> </P> <P>This doesn't include the focus from the BP and Legs, which as we know, doesn't help us tank one bit.  Nor does it include the +3 defense on guardian boots vs our +7 ministration. How is this difference between the two classes not getting wider. I don't mind guardians being the better tank, but I do mind them being MUCH better tanks. Have an original opionion of your own, and not recycled opinions of others. Changes to our gear are more likely to happen than changing the fundemental basics of our class. We aren't going to get a third direct taunt, we aren't going to see our heals upgraded, or uninteruptable. But what we can fight for, rightfully so, is for our EoF set pieces to be at least fair.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Mgunner on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 PM</span>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV>Going from 350 to 359 Parry might give 7.5%.</DIV> <DIV>Going from 380 to 389 will give significantly less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even so, it doesnt matter.  Parry is not going to make/break a Paladin's ability to survive a sticky spot in an encounter.  It would leave it too much up to chance.  Mitigation, ToS, Stone Sphere are not chance abilities... they are rock solid abilities that you can count on to survive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, if they did give more +Parry or whatever to Paladin equipment, they would take something else away in return.  Gear is balance on the total abilities given to an item for that item's level and quality.  If an item gets +7 Parry, its going to have significantly less of something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong, Id STRONGLY prefer +Parry or +Defense over +Ministration, but its NOT going to solve Paladin tanking issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>7.5% more parry will not improve our ability to survive a sticky spot, however, it may prevent us from being in that sticky spot to begin with as often. Defense, Parry, and Block are so much more important now.

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV>Going from 350 to 359 Parry might give 7.5%.</DIV> <DIV>Going from 380 to 389 will give significantly less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even so, it doesnt matter.  Parry is not going to make/break a Paladin's ability to survive a sticky spot in an encounter.  It would leave it too much up to chance.  Mitigation, ToS, Stone Sphere are not chance abilities... they are rock solid abilities that you can count on to survive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, if they did give more +Parry or whatever to Paladin equipment, they would take something else away in return.  Gear is balance on the total abilities given to an item for that item's level and quality.  If an item gets +7 Parry, its going to have significantly less of something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong, Id STRONGLY prefer +Parry or +Defense over +Ministration, but its NOT going to solve Paladin tanking issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>+block the main one i ask for isnt scaled.  25% block is 25% block against a lvl1, and against a lvl 75 x4.  I never said +parry or +defense will completely fix us, its a start.  Again those stonesphere and tower of stone is what makes guardians the MT and uss the offtanks.  BUT + to ANY kind of avoidance helps us.  I would much rather add a few extra % to void a 6k attack then be able to cast my little 1.3k ward faster.  I dunno how far u have gotten in the game wyrd, but you can take an insta cast ward into EH or MIS and ur going to get laughed at by the mobs, end of story.

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mgunner wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>MGunner,</P> <P><shakes head></P> <P>Just because I do not (at this point) raid, doesn't mean I can't know the issues involved around raiding.  I do have half a brain and I read dang near every topic on this forum, ESPECIALLY those by Prov and Wyrd.  I understand that Paladins aren't wanted in raids, but that doesn't mean that equipment is the answer, especially equipment you need inorder to get the equipment on the raid.</P> <P>Yes the foci are crap, would having what you want instantly make Paladins raid desired?  I doubt it because it doesn't fix the core issue, it only covers them up.  It is sorta like getting Pnemonia and only treating the cough...  it doesn't work.</P> <P>Do I want to be a raid tank some day, you better [I cannot control my vocabulary] well believe it.  Do I think I have a snowballs chance in hell with the way we are now?  Hell no.  Do I think changing some crappy foci to equally crappy tanking foci is going to get me anywhere to that goal?  again, no.  Do I think that changing anything about the equipment is going to make paladins anything more than a charity case for raids?  Again, no.</P> <P>Yes, I understand that raiding is more than just what I, you or even a single group can do.  I have actually attended a raid or two in my life.  Don't really like them, but that is another story that has nothing to do with the class.  And yes, I do understand that from a tanking perspective the foci suck, quite seriously.</P> <P>As to why I keep "chiming in" it is because I too want to see the class improve, just like everyone else who is active on these boards.  I just happen to think the issues are deeper than the foci on a piece of equipment.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>You can know the issues we have in raids, but until you experience them for yourself, you don't know entirely what your talking about. How do you possibly believe that our gear isn't a big part of this. The gap between guardians and paladins is getting bigger everyday.</P> <P>Let's compare the two classes EoF set pieces.</P> <P>Guardians, when complete</P> <P>get +20 Defense, increase in hate by 100, and 4% mitigation increase from stance.</P> <P> </P> <P>Paladins get</P> <P>100 hate increase, RC +65, and +10 ministration, defense, and wisdom, Symmetry X</P> <P> </P> <P>This doesn't include the focus from the BP and Legs, which as we know, doesn't help us tank one bit.  Nor does it include the +3 defense on guardian boots vs our +7 ministration. How is this difference between the two classes not getting wider. I don't mind guardians being the better tank, but I do mind them being MUCH better tanks. Have an original opionion of your own, and not recycled opinions of others. Changes to our gear are more likely to happen than changing the fundemental basics of our class. We aren't going to get a third direct taunt, we aren't going to see our heals upgraded, or uninteruptable. But what we can fight for, rightfully so, is for our EoF set pieces to be at least fair.</P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Mgunner on <SPAN class=date_text>01-23-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Me I see it more like sticking a bandade on a gunshot wound.  But I will agree with you, the set armor sucks (I did go and look at some of the pieces and what we get) but even if we got the exact set that the guards got, we'd still be third rate tanks.  But I've never said that equipment shouldn't be a part of what makes us tanks, I said it shouldn't be the ONLY option.  If this was the only paladin tank armor out there, it would make it so you'd have to get this armor to have a shot at this armor and with that the circular logic is staggering.</P> <P>IF equipment is going to be our defining role, then it needs to be spread out into our other equipment so we have some means to justify our slot to get this better armor.  Having one end all be all set is not a solution.</P>

[Rast]

perhaps having paladin set armor at ledgendary and fabled levels at all tiers over 3 might be an option.  Would infuriate the armorsmiths (of which I am one) but would solve the problem...  Assuming the gear was worth a [I cannot control my vocabulary].

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR>+block the main one i ask for isnt scaled.  25% block is 25% block against a lvl1, and against a lvl 75 x4.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um.. no</P> <P> - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill.<BR>-- <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330</A></P> <P>Perhaps you should get your own facts straight before questioning my knowledge and experience in game.</P> <P>W</P> <P> </P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> perhaps having paladin set armor at ledgendary and fabled levels at all tiers over 3 might be an option.  Would infuriate the armorsmiths (of which I am one) but would solve the problem...  Assuming the gear was worth a [I cannot control my vocabulary].<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>EoF does have 2 pally sets, a legendary and a fabled.</P> <P>What i dont get is ur saying armor shouldnt define us as tanks, then what should?  Are you saying that we should be able to run in wearing nothing but our loin cloth and come out basically about as well as we would in full tank gear?</P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR>+block the main one i ask for isnt scaled.  25% block is 25% block against a lvl1, and against a lvl 75 x4.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um.. no</P> <P> - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill.<BR>-- <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330</A></P> <P>Perhaps you should get your own facts straight before questioning my knowledge and experience in game.</P> <P>W<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ok then i missunderstood an aspect of block, that doesnt change the fact that block is the most key skill paladins get.  What that sais is that regardless of skill (which im going to guess is solo v epic) that is ur block chance.  So it drops a few levels due to the fact ur fighting a yellow.  Its still better then parry and defense or mitigation anymore since it doesnt get hit with the horrid returns they put in the game.<BR> <P>Message Edited by RaistNA on <SPAN class=date_text>01-23-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:27 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by RaistNA on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 PM</span>

[redi]

<div></div>higher lvl=higher skills=uncontested=block pwnsand raist, log in<div></div><p>Message Edited by redict on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:29 PM</span>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR>+block the main one i ask for isnt scaled.  25% block is 25% block against a lvl1, and against a lvl 75 x4.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um.. no</P> <P> - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill.<BR>-- <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330</A></P> <P>Perhaps you should get your own facts straight before questioning my knowledge and experience in game.</P> <P>W</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ok then i missunderstood an aspect of block, that doesnt change the fact that block is the most key skill paladins get.  What that sais is that regardless of skill (which im going to guess is solo v epic) that is ur block chance.  So it drops a few levels due to the fact ur fighting a yellow.  Its still better then parry and defense or mitigation anymore since it doesnt get hit with the horrid returns they put in the game.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So basically now you're agreeing with me... Block is the avoidance check that matters in Epic fights... not Parry or Defense.  Massive increases in Parry/Defense will have a minimal impact on the tanking abilities of a Paladin.  </P> <P>The true issues are the lack of true defensive measures to deal with spike damage and the ability to keep the baseline of damage to a reasonable level.  If you look through my old posts you can see a direct comparison between my Guardian and Paladin tanking Vilucidae.  The incoming damage is significantly different even though both are equally geared.</P> <P>Now, if youre arguing the fact that a Paladin needs drastically better gear to do the same job as a Guardian, then I agree.  However, the Devs will NEVER give equipment of that magnitude in order to balance Guardians and Paladins out.  Asking for that is just foolish.</P> <P>In the end... believe it or not, Im arguing the same points Phov argues here... and I really dont know a Paladin who disagrees with Phov.</P> <P>W</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:30 PM</span>

[Rast]

<P>Armor should enhance what is already there, it shouldn't be trying to replace what isn't there now.  My point is that even if we had great armor, we'd still have issues as tanks since everything we get is balanced against abilities that are not working as the devs seem to think they do.</P> <P>We are healing tanks, so they give us less HPs to compensate.  Never taking into account that as a tank, you are getting hit and thus healing yourself is a joke.</P> <P>We have wards, so they give us less mitigation to compensate, but never take into account that the ward doesn't scale like mitigation does and thus isn't worth a [I cannot control my vocabulary] against epics (plus it gets interupted at the least convienant times)</P> <P>What good is the armor if you still have less HPs than the guard and have no answer to Stone Sphere and Tower of Stone?</P> <P>What good is the armor if you are dead on the initial pull because you have no way of handling the excessive damage of the pull?  It'll look nice on your corpse I suppose...</P> <P>In the end, equipment can't fix the problems by itself.  I'll admit that this armor (the more I look at it) isn't what I would want for it's effects, compared to some of the other classes (hell the wizards get some stupendious DPS addatives with theirs...) and the guardian armor (except for the chest piece which they think is a joke)...  So I'll agree with everyone here that this armor isn't what we need.  But even if it was what we thought it should be, it wouldn't fix us.</P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR>+block the main one i ask for isnt scaled.  25% block is 25% block against a lvl1, and against a lvl 75 x4.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um.. no</P> <P> - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill.<BR>-- <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=330</A></P> <P>Perhaps you should get your own facts straight before questioning my knowledge and experience in game.</P> <P>W</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ok then i missunderstood an aspect of block, that doesnt change the fact that block is the most key skill paladins get.  What that sais is that regardless of skill (which im going to guess is solo v epic) that is ur block chance.  So it drops a few levels due to the fact ur fighting a yellow.  Its still better then parry and defense or mitigation anymore since it doesnt get hit with the horrid returns they put in the game.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So basically now you're agreeing with me... Block is the avoidance check that matters in Epic fights... not Parry or Defense.  Massive increases in Parry/Defense will have a minimal impact on the tanking abilities of a Paladin.  The true issues are the lack of true defensive measures to deal with spike damage.</P> <P>Believe it or not, Im arguing the same points Phov argues here... and I really dont know a Paladin who disagrees with Phov.</P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Iv always said block was key.  Where i disagree with you, and with Phov if this is how he feels....is the fact our problems are at the core of our class.  The MAIN reason guardians are better is their 'o [I cannot control my vocabulary]' abilitys in tanking.  We infact do get one, its just overlooked cause it was constantly being broken then refixed then broken again, and thats DA.  No one takes it anymore because its too unpredictable in its current state...or at least when i last used it.  I do disagree where u say massive increase in Parry/Defense will have minimal impact on our tanking.  I think the paladin nitch is avoidance and blocking.

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>Armor should enhance what is already there, it shouldn't be trying to replace what isn't there now.  My point is that even if we had great armor, we'd still have issues as tanks since everything we get is balanced against abilities that are not working as the devs seem to think they do.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I disagree, if we had gear that was aimed towards tanking like other classes get (with + mods to def, parry, block and pure miti) we would be perfect</FONT></P> <P>We are healing tanks, so they give us less HPs to compensate.  Never taking into account that as a tank, you are getting hit and thus healing yourself is a joke.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I have more HP's then any guardian on my server.  Pally's have some of the highest self buffed HP's in the game, we loose mitigation and avoidance to compensate for our heals.</FONT></P> <P>We have wards, so they give us less mitigation to compensate, but never take into account that the ward doesn't scale like mitigation does and thus isn't worth a [I cannot control my vocabulary] against epics (plus it gets interupted at the least convienant times)</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I dunno if they fixed our wards to scale, they do in heroic stuff but when i get hit for more damage then what my warden can protect after mitigation, i dont expect even a mitigated ward to do anything big.</FONT></P> <P>What good is the armor if you still have less HPs than the guard and have no answer to Stone Sphere and Tower of Stone?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Again we dont have less HP's then a guard, a good pally should infact have more.  Stone Sphere and Tower of Stone are what makes guardians what they are.  That would be like them complaining about our LoH (which they do)</FONT></P> <P>What good is the armor if you are dead on the initial pull because you have no way of handling the excessive damage of the pull?  It'll look nice on your corpse I suppose...</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>A little extra uncontested avoidance (like block) will help huge.  Our guardian never pulls with tower of stone anyways, so its not like their o [I cannot control my vocabulary] abilitys are saving them there.</FONT></P> <P>In the end, equipment can't fix the problems by itself.  I'll admit that this armor (the more I look at it) isn't what I would want for it's effects, compared to some of the other classes (hell the wizards get some stupendious DPS addatives with theirs...) and the guardian armor (except for the chest piece which they think is a joke)...  So I'll agree with everyone here that this armor isn't what we need.  But even if it was what we thought it should be, it wouldn't fix us.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Rast]

<P>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</P> <P>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</P> <P> </P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</P> <P>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</P> <P>And im not saying youll need the gear to get started.  On a heroic level with that equip, for the most part, guardians and pallys are the same.  They have a few abilitys, but its not overpowered in the lower part of the game.  [I cannot control my vocabulary] even early raiding...labs...Lyceum and so on, the difference between guards and pallys are still small.  Pallys double FINE as the MT in these zones.  But when you get up to MIS, Chel'drak, EH, FTH, DT, last few mobs in HoS and so on, the difference becomes more appearant.  Why?  Because now the guard is using his guardian gear, and the paladin is using his paladin gear.  Notice how the difference is most appearant AFTER the gear upgrades?<BR></P>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</P> <P>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You really should read posts before responding...<BR>

[Demoley]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Raston wrote: <div></div> <p>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</p> <p>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</p> <hr> </blockquote>You really should read posts before responding...<hr></blockquote>IM sorry wyrd, i have a question for you, didnt you hit the easy button and roll a guard, and lose faith in the class that we all set out to know and love? ive been at work all day, and missed alot of this thread and have browsed though it there have been alot of valid points made, but some things are frankly bs, to which im not going to get into anymore...its pointless to sit and aurgue the same topics in every thread, bottom line is our class needs help, if people cant see that and continue to say its fine, then they need to experiance one day in the life of a tanking/raiding paladin then tehy will be sticking thier foot in thier mouth...end of story...</div>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</P> <P>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You really should read posts before responding...<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>that was a typo, i meant to say 'Tower of stone does scale?"</P> <P>His post sais it does, but it doesnt.  Its not that i should read posts before responding, its i should read what i type before clicking submit post</P>

[Anariale]

<P>Paladins need help, not equipment tweaks.  Modifying the hardest pair of leggins to get in game will do nothing to help paladins.</P> <P>As for your question, yes I rolled a Guardian, leveled to 70, raided and beat pretty much all KoS content before burning out.  I came back in EoF on my Paladin and am playing again.  I kinda handed the guardian to the guild so they could use it as needed, so when I came back, Im just playing the toon on the account.</P> <P>W</P>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</P> <P>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You really should read posts before responding...<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>that was a typo, i meant to say 'Tower of stone does scale?"</P> <P>His post sais it does, but it doesnt.  Its not that i should read posts before responding, its i should read what i type before clicking submit post</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ToS does scale...</P> <P>ToS absorbs 3 hits, no matter how much damage.  If the hit is for 5000 damage, it absorbs 5000 damage.  If the hit is for 10,000,000,000,000 damage, it absorbs 10,000,000,000,000 damage.  Thats called scaling.</P> <P>Compared to a Ward from a Paladin that heals for 1400 HP.  If we get hit for 300 damage, the Ward rocks.  If we get hit for 5000 damage, the Ward is meh.  Thats an ability not scaling.</P> <P>W</P>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</P> <P>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You really should read posts before responding...<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>that was a typo, i meant to say 'Tower of stone does scale?"</P> <P>His post sais it does, but it doesnt.  Its not that i should read posts before responding, its i should read what i type before clicking submit post</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ToS does scale...</P> <P>ToS absorbs 3 hits, no matter how much damage.  If the hit is for 5000 damage, it absorbs 5000 damage.  If the hit is for 10,000,000,000,000 damage, it absorbs 10,000,000,000,000 damage.  Thats called scaling.</P> <P>Compared to a Ward from a Paladin that heals for 1400 HP.  If we get hit for 300 damage, the Ward rocks.  If we get hit for 5000 damage, the Ward is meh.  Thats an ability not scaling.</P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>our perception of scaling is different.  When you say 'an ability scales' to me i take it as its attributes and effect adjusts based on the level, skill and difficaulty of the encounter.</P> <P>ToS does no scaling at all, it doesnt adjust, it doesnt change based on the target.  Its 3 hits, no matter the damage, it will take 1 of those 3 absorbs even if its a hit from a grey, or from red, its still going to absorb that hit regardless and use 1 of the 3 effect triggers.<BR></P>

[Demoley]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p>Paladins need help, not equipment tweaks.  Modifying the hardest pair of leggins to get in game will do nothing to help paladins.</p> <p>As for your question, yes I rolled a Guardian, leveled to 70, raided and beat pretty much all KoS content before burning out.  I came back in EoF on my Paladin and am playing again.  I kinda handed the guardian to the guild so they could use it as needed, so when I came back, Im just playing the toon on the account.</p> <p>W</p><hr></blockquote>i never said we needed equipment tweeks i said the 4% cod proc is bs i said our class needs help, thanks for basicly repeating what i said, </div>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Raston wrote: <div></div> <p>if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place?</p> <p>Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does.  LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed.  While ToS does scale to the damage being done.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Tower of stone doesnt scale?  its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield.  Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly.</p> <hr> </blockquote>You really should read posts before responding... <hr> </blockquote> <p>that was a typo, i meant to say 'Tower of stone does scale?"</p> <p>His post sais it does, but it doesnt.  Its not that i should read posts before responding, its i should read what i type before clicking submit post</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>ToS does scale...</p> <p>ToS absorbs 3 hits, no matter how much damage.  If the hit is for 5000 damage, it absorbs 5000 damage.  If the hit is for 10,000,000,000,000 damage, it absorbs 10,000,000,000,000 damage.  Thats called scaling.</p> <p>Compared to a Ward from a Paladin that heals for 1400 HP.  If we get hit for 300 damage, the Ward rocks.  If we get hit for 5000 damage, the Ward is meh.  Thats an ability not scaling.</p> <p>W</p><hr></blockquote>........block: constant tos, tos:cast with recast, conclusion=more block,parry,defense  closes the gap between guardians and us</div>

[Rast]

<P>To me, scaling is when the ability is effective regardles of the effective target.</P> <P>ToS scales with the mob</P> <P>Paladin Wards, Heals and LH do not.  They are static amounts or ranges.</P> <P>So in effect, While ToS is crap at the lower enounter range (since it scales down to that point) it is beyond amazing at the upper range since it will absorb 3 hits no matter how hard they are.  Our ward is what our ward it.  Be it a grey, a solo, a heroic or a epic.  It doesn't scale at all.</P>

[RaistNA]

<DIV>sorry i just dont see ToS as a scaling ability, its a flat 3 stoneskins</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and wow this thread has changed topics a lot....</DIV>

[redi]

and btw, we have this flat stoneskin with our blocking ability calculated up to the cooling down time of ToS on par<div></div>log in raist!!!<div></div><p>Message Edited by redict on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:25 PM</span>

[Zoren Northwood]

<blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div>sorry i just dont see ToS as a scaling ability, its a flat 3 stoneskins</div> <div> </div> <div>and wow this thread has changed topics a lot....</div><hr></blockquote>Kind of a ridiculous statement.  If ToS doesn't scale, WHAT DOES?!<div></div>

[RaistNA]

<P>im at work for another hour :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P>jeez saying it makes it seem that much longer too.....</P>

[redi]

rescue does scale, special taunt from splitpaw scales<div></div>

[Zoren Northwood]

<blockquote><hr>redict wrote:rescue does scale, special taunt from splitpaw scales<div></div><hr></blockquote><div></div>Completely different type of scaling.  Those two abilities scale to your level.  We're talking about abilities that scale to the encounter.

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <DIV>sorry i just dont see ToS as a scaling ability, its a flat 3 stoneskins</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and wow this thread has changed topics a lot....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we must be working with completely different definations of scaling here then...</P> <P>It is 3 flat stone skins yes.  But in those three hits it doesn't matter if the hit is for 5 points or 5 million points, it is completely absorbed.  That is scaling to the damage.</P> <P>Our heals and wards do not scale with the hits, they are static at each given version.  For our 1300 point ward, it will take exactly 1300 points of damage, doesn't matter if that is 5 hits or 20 hits.  That is why it is better than ToS at group content where the hits are smaller.  But you put it those hits into the 5k range and not even the first hit is fully mitigated (numbers made up out of thin air for illustration).  It doesnt' scale to the hit, it takes its raw number and that is it.</P> <P>Right now, paladins have nothing to compete with ToS as a competitive skill.</P> <P>Now, I won't deny that gear without the right skills hinders us, but as long as there isn't some skill on our part that can compete with the complete ability of ToS (not ToS, but something that will scale in some manner) we won't be able to compete.  Now, that ability might be better, class only blocking gear.  It might be a 75% ward that is only castable every 5 minutes.  It might be a revamp of DA so that it is a 50% ward instead of only blocking stuff if it is under 50%.  But it is going to have to be more than just one set of gear that only a very small portion of the class will ever see.</P>

[redi]

to quote combat changes then you mean cotested vs. skill......but that's offtopicit's a matter of fact that most of the paladin-wearable things are useless for tanking, especially when it comes to +parry+def+mitigation and when looking at the focus it's a slap in the face<div></div>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <DIV>sorry i just dont see ToS as a scaling ability, its a flat 3 stoneskins</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and wow this thread has changed topics a lot....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Kind of a ridiculous statement.  If ToS doesn't scale, WHAT DOES?!<BR> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>they pretty much took scaling outa the game.  It was most seen back in classic with armor.  When it would show ur values, vs actual values on items, and if u where below the 'intended' level of an item, it would scale down to you untill u where at that level, and then u would get full effect for it.  Then as you got higher level, and it went down in con, its stats on u scaled down (most didnt notice it, but if u watched closely, a green item didnt give u full stats that it read as).  Id also like to add in here that armor use to scale to your target too...i dont remember all the numbers as it was too long ago heh.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by RaistNA on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 PM</span>

[Rast]

i will agree with that redict...  our gear is worthless for tanking.

[Zoren Northwood]

Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal.<div></div>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR>Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <STRONG>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</STRONG>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.<BR><BR>Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite.

[Zoren Northwood]

<blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote:Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <strong>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</strong>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite.<hr></blockquote>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based.<div></div>

[RaistNA]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR>Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <STRONG>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</STRONG>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.<BR><BR>Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol wow.....who are you?  the damage it will absorb per hit is infinite.  the amount of the incoming hit it will absorb his 100%.  Its limitations on absorbtion is infinite.</DIV>

[Zoren Northwood]

<div><blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote: <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote:Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <strong>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</strong>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite. <hr> </blockquote>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>lol wow.....who are you?  the damage it will absorb per hit is infinite.  the amount of the incoming hit it will absorb his 100%.  Its limitations on absorbtion is infinite.</div><hr></blockquote>Compare ToS to the paladin ward.Guardian with ToS vs. weak mob: ToS absorbs hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.Guardian with ToS vs. strong mob: ToS absorbs hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 0.Despite 10x the incoming damage, damage taken remains constant because the effectiveness of ToS scales 10x.Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 13500.The pally ward does not scale to the incoming damage, and so damage taken increases tremendously against the stronger mob.Is this really so hard to understand?</div>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR>Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <STRONG>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</STRONG>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.<BR><BR>Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol wow.....who are you?  the damage it will absorb per hit is infinite.  the amount of the incoming hit it will absorb his 100%.  Its limitations on absorbtion is infinite.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Compare ToS to the paladin ward.<BR><BR>Guardian with ToS vs. weak mob: ToS absorbs hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.<BR>Guardian with ToS vs. strong mob: ToS absorbs hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 0.<BR><BR>Despite 10x the incoming damage, damage taken remains constant because the effectiveness of ToS scales 10x.<BR><BR>Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.<BR>Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 13500.<BR><BR>The pally ward does not scale to the incoming damage, and so damage taken increases tremendously against the stronger mob.<BR><BR>Is this really so hard to understand?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ur not taking more damage because the mob is stronger, ur taking more damage cause the hit you took is harder.  Wards dont scale either.  A scaling ability would be one that read "Against green and white con mobs, this spell will absorb 100% of all incoming damage, against yellow con mobs this spell will absorb 75% of all incomming damage, against orange cons this spell will absorb 50%.  Grants a total of 3 triggers"  That is scaling, it adjusts based on what level ur opponent is.  ToS doesnt care what level your opponent is, or their strength.  Its a base damage absorb.  THere is no scaling or adjusting involved.  It just takes the hit and u dont take the damage.  It doesnt say "o wow tuffer mob, crank that absorb % up boys we getting a few hard hits comming!"

[Demoley]

i agree with raistin who are you, come out from behind your anon flag<div></div>

[Zoren Northwood]

<blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote: <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote:Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <strong>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</strong>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite. <hr> </blockquote>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>lol wow.....who are you?  the damage it will absorb per hit is infinite.  the amount of the incoming hit it will absorb his 100%.  Its limitations on absorbtion is infinite.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Compare ToS to the paladin ward.Guardian with ToS vs. weak mob: ToS absorbs hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.Guardian with ToS vs. strong mob: ToS absorbs hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 0.Despite 10x the incoming damage, damage taken remains constant because the effectiveness of ToS scales 10x.Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 13500.The pally ward does not scale to the incoming damage, and so damage taken increases tremendously against the stronger mob.Is this really so hard to understand?</div> <hr> </blockquote>ur not taking more damage because the mob is stronger, ur taking more damage cause the hit you took is harder.  Wards dont scale either.  A scaling ability would be one that read "Against green and white con mobs, this spell will absorb 100% of all incoming damage, against yellow con mobs this spell will absorb 75% of all incomming damage, against orange cons this spell will absorb 50%.  Grants a total of 3 triggers"  That is scaling, it adjusts based on what level ur opponent is.  ToS doesnt care what level your opponent is, or their strength.  Its a base damage absorb.  THere is no scaling or adjusting involved.  It just takes the hit and u dont take the damage.  It doesnt say "o wow tuffer mob, crank that absorb % up boys we getting a few hard hits comming!"<hr></blockquote>Jesus, where to begin?  How do you differentiate between a "stronger mob" and a "mob that hits harder"?  Kind of a silly semantic exercise...No one is saying that the ability CHANGES based on the opponent or incoming hit.  We're saying that percentage-based abilities by definition scale to incoming damage, while fixed-value abilities do not.  Your hypothetical spell description could just as easily say the following, which is true of percentage-based abilities:"This spell will absorb 5000 points of 5000-point hits.  Against 500-point hits, this spell will absorb 500 points.  Against 250-point hits, this spell will absorb 250 points.  Grants a total of 3 triggers."That's inherent scaling of percentage-based abilities.  The pally equivalent would say this:"This spell will ward 1500 points of 5000-point hits.  Against 500-point hits, this spell will ward 1500 points.  Against 250-point hits, this spell will absorb 1500 points.  Lasts 30 seconds or until 1500 points have been warded."

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR>Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <STRONG>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</STRONG>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.<BR><BR>Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol wow.....who are you?  the damage it will absorb per hit is infinite.  the amount of the incoming hit it will absorb his 100%.  Its limitations on absorbtion is infinite.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Compare ToS to the paladin ward.<BR><BR>Guardian with ToS vs. weak mob: ToS absorbs hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.<BR>Guardian with ToS vs. strong mob: ToS absorbs hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 0.<BR><BR>Despite 10x the incoming damage, damage taken remains constant because the effectiveness of ToS scales 10x.<BR><BR>Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.<BR>Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 13500.<BR><BR>The pally ward does not scale to the incoming damage, and so damage taken increases tremendously against the stronger mob.<BR><BR>Is this really so hard to understand?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ur not taking more damage because the mob is stronger, ur taking more damage cause the hit you took is harder.  Wards dont scale either.  A scaling ability would be one that read "Against green and white con mobs, this spell will absorb 100% of all incoming damage, against yellow con mobs this spell will absorb 75% of all incomming damage, against orange cons this spell will absorb 50%.  Grants a total of 3 triggers"  That is scaling, it adjusts based on what level ur opponent is.  ToS doesnt care what level your opponent is, or their strength.  Its a base damage absorb.  THere is no scaling or adjusting involved.  It just takes the hit and u dont take the damage.  It doesnt say "o wow tuffer mob, crank that absorb % up boys we getting a few hard hits comming!"<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Jesus, where to begin?  How do you differentiate between a "stronger mob" and a "mob that hits harder"?  Kind of a silly semantic exercise...<BR><BR>No one is saying that the ability CHANGES based on the opponent or incoming hit.  We're saying that percentage-based abilities by definition scale to incoming damage, while fixed-value abilities do not.  Your hypothetical spell description could just as easily say the following, which is true of percentage-based abilities:<BR><BR>"This spell will absorb 5000 points of 5000-point hits.  Against 500-point hits, this spell will absorb 500 points.  Against 250-point hits, this spell will absorb 250 points.  Grants a total of 3 triggers."<BR><BR>That's inherent scaling of percentage-based abilities.  The pally equivalent would say this:<BR><BR>"This spell will ward 1500 points of 5000-point hits.  Against 500-point hits, this spell will ward 1500 points.  Against 250-point hits, this spell will absorb 1500 points.  Lasts 30 seconds or until 1500 points have been warded."<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>because the value you get hit for wont always be determined by the mobs strength...usually yes...but not always.  I have been knailed in the face by a heroic mob for 5k and a x4 named has hit me for the mid hundreds.  Does that mean that heroic mob is stronger?  no. </P> <P>"No one is saying that the ability CHANGES based on the opponent or incoming hit"</P> <P>thx for showing you havent read anything but what you wanted too.  I said that in my oppinion in this game the meaning of scaling it somethign that changes based on the level, strength and attributes of the target.  Tos does not do this, it is just a base 3 absorbs no matter the level, strength or attributes of whats hitting you.</P>

[Demoley]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zoren Northwood wrote:<blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote: <blockquote> <hr> RaistNA wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoren Northwood wrote:Raistin, you're missing the point re: scaling.  <strong>Guardian tools like ToS and short-term mitigation buffs are percentage-based</strong>, which means that they scale to the damage.  They become more useful the more damage they are used to absorb.Pally tools like heals and wards are flat values, which means that they do NOT scale to the damage.  They become less useful the more damage they are used to ward/heal. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>no its not % based.  There is no % considered into it, its a flat stoneskin.  So it doesnt change with little damage or a lot of damage.  Because of the nature of it being a stoneskin, it seems to be more effective against big hits, but its effectiveness never changes.  Its the same exact spell with same exact spell effect and same exact value, which is infinite. <hr> </blockquote>No, the value is not infinite.  The value is 100% -- hence, it's percentage-based. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>lol wow.....who are you?  the damage it will absorb per hit is infinite.  the amount of the incoming hit it will absorb his 100%.  Its limitations on absorbtion is infinite.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Compare ToS to the paladin ward.Guardian with ToS vs. weak mob: ToS absorbs hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.Guardian with ToS vs. strong mob: ToS absorbs hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 0.Despite 10x the incoming damage, damage taken remains constant because the effectiveness of ToS scales 10x.Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 500, 500, 500.  Damage taken = 0.Pally ward (1500 to use a round number) vs. weak mob: Ward absorbs 1500 HPs of hits of 5000, 5000, 5000.  Damage taken = 13500.The pally ward does not scale to the incoming damage, and so damage taken increases tremendously against the stronger mob.Is this really so hard to understand?</div> <hr> </blockquote>ur not taking more damage because the mob is stronger, ur taking more damage cause the hit you took is harder.  Wards dont scale either.  A scaling ability would be one that read "Against green and white con mobs, this spell will absorb 100% of all incoming damage, against yellow con mobs this spell will absorb 75% of all incomming damage, against orange cons this spell will absorb 50%.  Grants a total of 3 triggers"  That is scaling, it adjusts based on what level ur opponent is.  ToS doesnt care what level your opponent is, or their strength.  Its a base damage absorb.  THere is no scaling or adjusting involved.  It just takes the hit and u dont take the damage.  It doesnt say "o wow tuffer mob, crank that absorb % up boys we getting a few hard hits comming!"<hr></blockquote>Jesus, where to begin?  How do you differentiate between a "stronger mob" and a "mob that hits harder"?  Kind of a silly semantic exercise...No one is saying that the ability CHANGES based on the opponent or incoming hit.  We're saying that percentage-based abilities by definition scale to incoming damage, while fixed-value abilities do not.  Your hypothetical spell description could just as easily say the following, which is true of percentage-based abilities:"This spell will absorb 5000 points of 5000-point hits.  Against 500-point hits, this spell will absorb 500 points.  Against 250-point hits, this spell will absorb 250 points.  Grants a total of 3 triggers."That's inherent scaling of percentage-based abilities.  The pally equivalent would say this:"This spell will ward 1500 points of 5000-point hits.  Against 500-point hits, this spell will ward 1500 points.  Against 250-point hits, this spell will absorb 1500 points.  Lasts 30 seconds or until 1500 points have been warded."<hr></blockquote>once again come out from behind your anon flag, show your name otherwise it leads me to believe your just another warrior on our forums trying to stand up for somthing in all reality you know jack about</div>

[Zoren Northwood]

<div><blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<p>thx for showing you havent read anything but what you wanted too.  I said that in my oppinion in this game the meaning of scaling it somethign that changes based on the level, strength and attributes of the target.  Tos does not do this, it is just a base 3 absorbs no matter the level, strength or attributes of whats hitting you.</p><hr></blockquote>And I'm saying that you don't get to redefine the word "scaling" to mean only one of its possible definitions.  You're looking at flat-value pally abilities and flat-percentage guardian abilities and suggesting that they are both flat.  Well, they are only both flat if you ignore WHAT is flat in each case.  Flat-percentage abilities = scaling-value abilities.  Not sure how else to explain it.</div>

[Mgunner]

Who cares if it scales or not. It is what it is. 

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaistNA wrote:<BR><BR> <P>thx for showing you havent read anything but what you wanted too.  I said that in my oppinion in this game the meaning of scaling it somethign that changes based on the level, strength and attributes of the target.  Tos does not do this, it is just a base 3 absorbs no matter the level, strength or attributes of whats hitting you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I'm saying that you don't get to redefine the word "scaling" to mean only one of its possible definitions.  You're looking at flat-value pally abilities and flat-percentage guardian abilities and suggesting that they are both flat.  Well, they are only both flat if you ignore WHAT is flat in each case.  Flat-percentage abilities = scaling-value abilities.  Not sure how else to explain it.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>my question is explain the difference between 100% and infinite.  its a stoneskin, it absorbs infinite damage for 3 hits, there is no changing value based on what is hitting you, and its strength and the amount it hits you for. 

[Rast]

<P>ok, throw the whole scaling word out the window...  techinically you are both right on it.</P> <P>Instead look at it like this.  Which has the higher potential of absorbing the most damage against a lvl 71x4 mob?  I think the answer is pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] easy to figure out.</P>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Ok well how do we go about getting our death ward changed to a 1 or 2 shot ward that takes no damage and can be cast every min. Would that be enough to make the people who want ToS but dont want to roll a gaurdian happy? Sony doesnt love us at Raid lv they gave all thier love at getting to 70 not beyond. I still like the idea of scaleing our wards to our hps 20% for master 1 18% for Adept 3 and 15% for adept 1. if you got 14k hps in a raid 20% wards 2500hp ward going into fight on top of what your shamans can put on ya. Its not ToS but its sticks with something that make us better on what our class already has.</DIV>

[dminkey]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<p>No, Ive very clearly stated that since the Paladin's abilities are absolutes, they do not scale well to epic encounters.</p></blockquote>Bingo, there is the answer to the all of the paladins class issues.  ToS negates more damage as the encounter gets more difficult.  Mitigation buffs negate more damage as the encounter gets more difficult.  Paladin wards negate a smaller percentage of incoming damage as the encounter gets more difficult.  As we get weaker, they get stonger.A few changes to paladin armor sets will not change anything, there needs to be a change in the way devs perceive paladins. I think the way Vanguard does it is probably the best.  All tank classes tank exactly the same (mitigation/avoidance/taunts) but have secondary focuses that differentiate them (paladins deal more damage to undead) .   This is the way EQ2 should have been, and what was sold to us when it was released. </div>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>dminkey wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<p>No, Ive very clearly stated that since the Paladin's abilities are absolutes, they do not scale well to epic encounters.</p></blockquote>Bingo, there is the answer to the all of the paladins class issues.  ToS negates more damage as the encounter gets more difficult.  Mitigation buffs negate more damage as the encounter gets more difficult.  Paladin wards negate a smaller percentage of incoming damage as the encounter gets more difficult.  As we get weaker, they get stonger.<font color="#ffff00">A few changes to paladin armor sets will not change anything</font>, there needs to be a change in the way devs perceive paladins. I think the way Vanguard does it is probably the best.  All tank classes tank exactly the same (mitigation/avoidance/taunts) but have secondary focuses that differentiate them (paladins deal more damage to undead) .   This is the way EQ2 should have been, and what was sold to us when it was released. </div><hr></blockquote>....well, not only paladin set, but each paladinwearable piece of armor needs tweaking(same goes for sks and yadda yadda) cause if most things were suited to tanking, we would have our save spot in raids. guards can buff def and parry and will benefit from those things as long as they're not capped, we will benefit from them in any way, cause it's a much harder way for us to cap'em. this is my point of view from tanking, not considering the focus on the legs(back to topic)....i am tired. so don't wonder why i am a bit confused.</div>

[MeridianR]

Couple points:1) People are arguing over stupid [I cannot control my vocabulary] things.  Who cares about what one's definition of scaling is?  Everyone agrees ToS >>>> our Ward for oh [I cannot control my vocabulary].  Sure there are limitations to ToS, but from a pure raiding standpoint it just totally owns Devotion.2) His in game name is Zoren - he plays on Mistmoore in Trinitas3) The only person who normally doesn't agree with me, is my wife..... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />4) Our major problem was best summed up by this quote (the person who wrote this must be an adonis):<hr size="2" width="100%"> In the middle of the fight any tank will do, but Guardians have a couple things better in the beginning.1) Tower of Stone2) Temp Mitigation buffs3) Reinforcement (not normally used in the beginning)They are able to absorb hits from a non debuffed mob, much easier then we are.  If I had to give my opinion on our top issue it would be this.  We really have no way to sustain predebuffed heavy melee hitting mobs in the beginning of a fight.  Sure if you have hella healers (and we do) it's possible but it's much tougher to keep a Paladin up in the beginning then it is a Guardian.Plus like me and Viru (Chaotic Legion pally) were talking the other day, our Snap aggro is kinda lacking.  Sure we can have sustained aggro with Amends, but if we lose it, it takes us a lot longer to get it back.<hr size="2" width="100%">If I could meet the person who wrote that, I just don't know what I would do /swoon<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>It seems like every day i login on this forum i see more aggressive postings between us, I understand the frustration level, especially on the POS foci on this armor piece and what type of message the devs are telling us when we compare to other classes.  They easily could have tossed a unique focus that i would imagine most, if not all would like better.  How about a recast reduction on rescue(X amount of mins off the base 10 min recast) or a 1 sec reduction on casting devotion.  Maybe a increased ward amount of 200 or 300 to devotion or  bonus amount to our single taunt or shield slam.   For a good laugh, i would ask to have a focus that allowed our shield slam to stun epics(ducking as a enchanter lobs a nuke my way).  I just hope that enough paladins out there can get the point across that the current focus is not acceptable on a fabled set item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sifting thru all the threads and posts on the forum and some ideas that i have toyed around, there is things that devs could do that would enhance raiding without making us overpowered in groups/solo play.   Take our Sacrament line and covert it from a spell that takes 3 secs to cast a heal to a 1 second cast combat art the wards us for a percentage of our max health.  Numbers could be adjusted but lets say it wards for 55% of our health with the same recast as it had before, it is self only so it doesn't affect healers abilities and allows us to have some initial damage absorbed plus stack with other's wards including devotion line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take our condemnation line and change from a lifetap like heal to a small ward, much more power/health sufficient and is more inline with our class.  Take our Celestial Touch and boost it to a percentage health heal that is at lest 60% if not closer to 75% max health heal so it scales to a paladin that is raid buffed or just a solo paladin, no waste on healing like the set amount of heal is now.  When compared to any other class in the game it should be visibly better than the way it is now(compare it to brawler enhanced mend or templer enhanced heal), we pay the price of the large heal by the large recast timer which can still remain in place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change our former 2 handed only combat art to have a debuff component to it.  It is suprising to hear how many out there are not aware that the only debuff we have is our group taunt that debuffs divine damage only.  Toss something in there, be it a slow or a dps debuff or physical mit debuff, just something to reduce incoming damage some.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our Defensive stance and add a survival component to it in addition to the wisdom we already have associted to it.  Parry would be nice but i think a bonus to block we be even better, our niche in tanking could be having a higher rate of blocking the attack than any other fighter out there and having a enhancement on the defensive stance would make sense.  For sake of numbers, say a 3% block increase, let the warriors have their parry and mit, we can be kings of blocking incoming melee damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Redo the Divine Favor spell and delete it as a death ward wannabe.  Toss in a proc chance to power tap a mob based on melee damage similar to our master strike rage abilities(25% chance each hit to give back X amount of power while draining the mob X amount for a duration of 3 mins and a recast of 5 mins).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Refine the Divine Aura AA to be a recast of 15 mins instead of 30 mins, look at max health of caster at start of spell casting and take in physical/spell mitigation beforehand on if it will proc the stoneskin if the hit is less than 50% of max health.  Some say this is working again, but the spell seems to seesaw between updates and i have not been convinced it is worth 8 aa's for a 30 min recast of it.  This spell alone if done right instead of the half way implementation it is now could help out raiding paladins more than many other suggestions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Set gear assignments, in my view our set gear should be the legendary set that is shared between paladin/shadowknight be based purely as offensive bonuses and the paladin exclusive fabled set as tanking/defensive.  No focuses on the fabled set that has no help to being able to tank more efficient or easier, and the stats, skills associated should reflect that.  We should see plus parry instead of plus ministration on the set along with a bonus to our power pool to help fuel those power hungry abilities of ours.  There is no excuse on our fabled set to not have the right items to enhance our tanking, it is overkill for the healing or dps only specced paladins out there to have that good of mitigation to fuel a 4% group proc focus.</DIV>

[equinoxio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <DIV>It seems like every day i login on this forum i see more aggressive postings between us, I understand the frustration level, especially on the POS foci on this armor piece and what type of message the devs are telling us when we compare to other classes.  They easily could have tossed a unique focus that i would imagine most, if not all would like better.  How about a recast reduction on rescue(X amount of mins off the base 10 min recast) or a 1 sec reduction on casting devotion.  Maybe a increased ward amount of 200 or 300 to devotion or  bonus amount to our single taunt or shield slam.   For a good laugh, i would ask to have a focus that allowed our shield slam to stun epics(ducking as a enchanter lobs a nuke my way).  I just hope that enough paladins out there can get the point across that the current focus is not acceptable on a fabled set item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sifting thru all the threads and posts on the forum and some ideas that i have toyed around, there is things that devs could do that would enhance raiding without making us overpowered in groups/solo play.   Take our Sacrament line and covert it from a spell that takes 3 secs to cast a heal to a 1 second cast combat art the wards us for a percentage of our max health.  Numbers could be adjusted but lets say it wards for 55% of our health with the same recast as it had before, it is self only so it doesn't affect healers abilities and allows us to have some initial damage absorbed plus stack with other's wards including devotion line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take our condemnation line and change from a lifetap like heal to a small ward, much more power/health sufficient and is more inline with our class.  Take our Celestial Touch and boost it to a percentage health heal that is at lest 60% if not closer to 75% max health heal so it scales to a paladin that is raid buffed or just a solo paladin, no waste on healing like the set amount of heal is now.  When compared to any other class in the game it should be visibly better than the way it is now(compare it to brawler enhanced mend or templer enhanced heal), we pay the price of the large heal by the large recast timer which can still remain in place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change our former 2 handed only combat art to have a debuff component to it.  It is suprising to hear how many out there are not aware that the only debuff we have is our group taunt that debuffs divine damage only.  Toss something in there, be it a slow or a dps debuff or physical mit debuff, just something to reduce incoming damage some.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our Defensive stance and add a survival component to it in addition to the wisdom we already have associted to it.  Parry would be nice but i think a bonus to block we be even better, our niche in tanking could be having a higher rate of blocking the attack than any other fighter out there and having a enhancement on the defensive stance would make sense.  For sake of numbers, say a 3% block increase, let the warriors have their parry and mit, we can be kings of blocking incoming melee damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Redo the Divine Favor spell and delete it as a death ward wannabe.  Toss in a proc chance to power tap a mob based on melee damage similar to our master strike rage abilities(25% chance each hit to give back X amount of power while draining the mob X amount for a duration of 3 mins and a recast of 5 mins).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Refine the Divine Aura AA to be a recast of 15 mins instead of 30 mins, look at max health of caster at start of spell casting and take in physical/spell mitigation beforehand on if it will proc the stoneskin if the hit is less than 50% of max health.  Some say this is working again, but the spell seems to seesaw between updates and i have not been convinced it is worth 8 aa's for a 30 min recast of it.  This spell alone if done right instead of the half way implementation it is now could help out raiding paladins more than many other suggestions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Set gear assignments, in my view our set gear should be the legendary set that is shared between paladin/shadowknight be based purely as offensive bonuses and the paladin exclusive fabled set as tanking/defensive.  No focuses on the fabled set that has no help to being able to tank more efficient or easier, and the stats, skills associated should reflect that.  We should see plus parry instead of plus ministration on the set along with a bonus to our power pool to help fuel those power hungry abilities of ours.  There is no excuse on our fabled set to not have the right items to enhance our tanking, it is overkill for the healing or dps only specced paladins out there to have that good of mitigation to fuel a 4% group proc focus.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Steel no offence, but what your smocking... First off ok yeah, fighting between us isnt any help and wont fix anything, but the other thing that wont ever help is exagerating on the "demands" on changing our spells, </P> <P>Your talking about changing Divine Favor to a power tap... we arent enchanters, and that wont happend...</P> <P>Condemnation changing to a mini ward will be as useful as the lifetap, and it wont be changed to a power tap for that matter...</P> <P>The Divine Aura already is 15 min recast, but it takes in consideration CURRENT (how many times i will repeat this geez) HP, I respected and got the DA, and been working out for me, helps me with those mobs that hit constantly, and makes it easier to hold the first 10 seconds, the only thing you have to consider is that wards affect DA, if the wards (at least ours) is up, the hits wont go through to the DA till the ward is down.</P> <P>We dont debuff anything else, since all our CAs and Spells (not counting AAs) are divine base, so if we get a debuff it's more logical to get a divine debuff, getting anything else wont happend, since we arent brigands/swash.., it's like saying a wizard gets debuff vs dps, just because they are paper tanks. Things are what they are, just accept it.</P> <P>The only 2 thing i can see that MIGHT (but wont) change is the defense stance get a +block % which would be in line with our AAs, and the other one is the LoH, but changing it to 60 - 75% isnt going to happend either, since if you use it on a guard so to speak, it might heal more than if you use it on your self, and we know that SoE doesnt believe in helping paladins in being useful...</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> equinoxio wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <DIV>It seems like every day i login on this forum i see more aggressive postings between us, I understand the frustration level, especially on the POS foci on this armor piece and what type of message the devs are telling us when we compare to other classes.  They easily could have tossed a unique focus that i would imagine most, if not all would like better.  How about a recast reduction on rescue(X amount of mins off the base 10 min recast) or a 1 sec reduction on casting devotion.  Maybe a increased ward amount of 200 or 300 to devotion or  bonus amount to our single taunt or shield slam.   For a good laugh, i would ask to have a focus that allowed our shield slam to stun epics(ducking as a enchanter lobs a nuke my way).  I just hope that enough paladins out there can get the point across that the current focus is not acceptable on a fabled set item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sifting thru all the threads and posts on the forum and some ideas that i have toyed around, there is things that devs could do that would enhance raiding without making us overpowered in groups/solo play.   Take our Sacrament line and covert it from a spell that takes 3 secs to cast a heal to a 1 second cast combat art the wards us for a percentage of our max health.  Numbers could be adjusted but lets say it wards for 55% of our health with the same recast as it had before, it is self only so it doesn't affect healers abilities and allows us to have some initial damage absorbed plus stack with other's wards including devotion line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take our condemnation line and change from a lifetap like heal to a small ward, much more power/health sufficient and is more inline with our class.  Take our Celestial Touch and boost it to a percentage health heal that is at lest 60% if not closer to 75% max health heal so it scales to a paladin that is raid buffed or just a solo paladin, no waste on healing like the set amount of heal is now.  When compared to any other class in the game it should be visibly better than the way it is now(compare it to brawler enhanced mend or templer enhanced heal), we pay the price of the large heal by the large recast timer which can still remain in place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change our former 2 handed only combat art to have a debuff component to it.  It is suprising to hear how many out there are not aware that the only debuff we have is our group taunt that debuffs divine damage only.  Toss something in there, be it a slow or a dps debuff or physical mit debuff, just something to reduce incoming damage some.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at our Defensive stance and add a survival component to it in addition to the wisdom we already have associted to it.  Parry would be nice but i think a bonus to block we be even better, our niche in tanking could be having a higher rate of blocking the attack than any other fighter out there and having a enhancement on the defensive stance would make sense.  For sake of numbers, say a 3% block increase, let the warriors have their parry and mit, we can be kings of blocking incoming melee damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Redo the Divine Favor spell and delete it as a death ward wannabe.  Toss in a proc chance to power tap a mob based on melee damage similar to our master strike rage abilities(25% chance each hit to give back X amount of power while draining the mob X amount for a duration of 3 mins and a recast of 5 mins).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Refine the Divine Aura AA to be a recast of 15 mins instead of 30 mins, look at max health of caster at start of spell casting and take in physical/spell mitigation beforehand on if it will proc the stoneskin if the hit is less than 50% of max health.  Some say this is working again, but the spell seems to seesaw between updates and i have not been convinced it is worth 8 aa's for a 30 min recast of it.  This spell alone if done right instead of the half way implementation it is now could help out raiding paladins more than many other suggestions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Set gear assignments, in my view our set gear should be the legendary set that is shared between paladin/shadowknight be based purely as offensive bonuses and the paladin exclusive fabled set as tanking/defensive.  No focuses on the fabled set that has no help to being able to tank more efficient or easier, and the stats, skills associated should reflect that.  We should see plus parry instead of plus ministration on the set along with a bonus to our power pool to help fuel those power hungry abilities of ours.  There is no excuse on our fabled set to not have the right items to enhance our tanking, it is overkill for the healing or dps only specced paladins out there to have that good of mitigation to fuel a 4% group proc focus.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Steel no offence, but what your smocking... First off ok yeah, fighting between us isnt any help and wont fix anything, but the other thing that wont ever help is exagerating on the "demands" on changing our spells,</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Sure some of the things i talked about are wht if's, but to ask for our self only heal changed to a ward and be classified as a combat art is not game breaking, I said before we cant change the heals/wards that can target other people because that steps on healer toes, but there is very little reason not to have our sacrament line changed to a self ward combat art.  Last i checked we are fighters and there was no mention my abilities had to be exactly like a healer class...</FONT></P> <P>Your talking about changing Divine Favor to a power tap... we arent enchanters, and that wont happend...</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Your right, we are not enchanters, hence why i didnt ask for a mana regen or the ability to use health to convert into power.  What i stated is something that gives us a ability similar to our brother shadowknight class in the tap veins light.  Maybe a 25% proc is too high but we need something help our power consumption and they seem unwilling to actual reduce our spell costs closer to warrior or brawler costs, so tell me another option if you would, unless you like Divine Favor as it is now?</FONT></P> <P>Condemnation changing to a mini ward will be as useful as the lifetap, and it wont be changed to a power tap for that matter...</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Never asked for condemnation to be a power tap, as far as Condemnation being changed to a ward not being more useful, have you looked at ACT parsers while using that combat art(hmm a combat art with a small heal, imagine that).  In a battle against direct raid mob damage it is a small bonus to your healing, not as effective as solo or group situations but it is bonus health on a damage spell i use anyways.  If i have full health and use this combat art the health is wasted in the lifetap form it has now, in a ward form(with a max duration similar to devotion) i have a much better chance at recieving the benefit from it.</FONT></P> <P>The Divine Aura already is 15 min recast, but it takes in consideration CURRENT (how many times i will repeat this geez) HP, I respected and got the DA, and been working out for me, helps me with those mobs that hit constantly, and makes it easier to hold the first 10 seconds, the only thing you have to consider is that wards affect DA, if the wards (at least ours) is up, the hits wont go through to the DA till the ward is down.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>For that i apoligize, I am going off memory on this AA, as i said before it is not worth the 8 points for a half baked stoneskin.  Nice to know it is 15 mins on recast and i assume it is taking my mit/spell resist percent in effect on the calculation before looking at less than 50% of my current health(another strike against it instead of max health on casting) plus not affected by non profession damage(how many epics out there cast normal profession spells and those that do, the non profession is the ones you want protection from.  They should just change this to a ward per hit for half your max health up to 30 hits or 10 seconds whichever come first and any leftover warded amount equal a heal.  A partial stoneskin is a poor spell to a ward.</FONT></P> <P>We dont debuff anything else, since all our CAs and Spells (not counting AAs) are divine base, so if we get a debuff it's more logical to get a divine debuff, getting anything else wont happend, since we arent brigands/swash.., it's like saying a wizard gets debuff vs dps, just because they are paper tanks. Things are what they are, just accept it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I see your point on the divine side but last i checked, a sizeable chunk of my damage also comes from autoattack damage and having a debuff to the mob would allow for more damage=more taunt.  If not that then a slow component on the mob to slow their attack damage down would help on our incoming damage.  As it is currently our divine debuff helps our spells/combat arts land with more damage but mean very little to the amount of incoming damage a melee heavy mobs dish out to us.  Maybe slow is the wrong phrase, i want a dehaste or slow down of the autoattack damage keyed to a combat art we can use and thought our less than par former two handed only strike like would be a perfect place for it.  Kind of like the glacier temper proc you can place on a weapon.</FONT></P> <P>The only 2 thing i can see that MIGHT (but wont) change is the defense stance get a +block % which would be in line with our AAs, and the other one is the LoH, but changing it to 60 - 75% isnt going to happend either, since if you use it on a guard so to speak, it might heal more than if you use it on your self, and we know that SoE doesnt believe in helping paladins in being useful...</P><FONT color=#ccffff>Glad to see the block % is appealing, and after seeing your view on Lay on Hands i agree on it to a certain degree.  I still think it needs beefed up in numbers, if you keep it in similar range as it is now, it is a poor cousin to the damge a shadowknight can inflict with Harm Touch.  Yes i know we more use out of our heal but i would think bumping up our Celestial Touch to be around 4,800-6,000 is not outside the range of asking.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[equinoxio]

<DIV>I hate Divine Favor, is the most useless spell we have in our spellbook. Honestly I would want to see a more "divine favor" than a joke spell like that, maybe a big ward like someone said, or maybe some mit/block temp buff, it would make it more divine favor....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yeah, LoH needs to scale up, when I crit my LoH it might still not heal the 50% of my hp during a raid, and that's just plain stupid, it should get changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe now that one of SoE Custumer something made a paladin to see why are we complaining so much will noticed that at least Divine favor is useless spell, i mean, 1k heal (adept 1) with a 12 sec stiffle and daze (just call it stun and get over with it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see us getting that +block on our defense stance since aparently that is what we are good at now.</DIV>

[Mgunner]

<P>There are two areas that I think we can excel at if given the opportunity. First is Amends. This has long been the thing a pally is most noted for. It should be expanded and more along the lines of a group buff. A version that would help the paladin in a non tanking role. I'm not suggesting a replacement, but rather, an addition. Divine Favor would be a good spot to put it.</P> <P>Second is block. This could possibly be a really good tanking ability. You have warriors that can take a hit, Monks and Bruisers that can avoid the hit, and crusaders that can block a hit. This is something I would like to see both SK's and Pallies get. Adding a decent amount of Block to our offensive stances can go a long way. Then expand the blocking with gear and AA's that enhance this (AA's already covered here).</P> <P>I feel that combined, these two changes will help our class. It will also help the SK brothers. They can still have the DPS and block, while we can have group amends support and block. Having a different version of amends will make us pallies very desirable in raid scenarios. The single target amends should still be the best way for aggro, but the group one making us usefull in raids. Block, would just make us a viable tank option.</P>