Who MT's or OT's for their guild?

[Lord_Quaymar]

<DIV>I'm asking this because I got into an arguement with some knucklehead on my server who says that Paladins cannot MT or OT in raids and he wasn't just being obnoxious either...he was serious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said that I know, from reading the forums, that there are plenty of high end raiding guilds that use a Pally to MT...if not 100% of the time, quite often anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So...if you don't mind....could you tell me if you MT/OT and what guild you belong to so I can throw a few guild names out there as proof?</DIV>

[Crib92]

<DIV>When I'm in the raid I'm the OT.  I usually take on add duty (Cheldrak for example) or pick up if MT dies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have MT'd most KOS instances (All of DT for example except for Cruor who we multi-tank anyways), but we've been focusing on EOF so I'm back to OT role while we learn the new encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm in Clan of Shadows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a side note.  We don't put the Pali in the MT group anymore.  Haven't done that in about 6 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mgunner]

<P>I've tanked many of the KoS mobs as well. I'm mostly an OT. You'll need an OT for the Outcast, 3p, Matron, Chel'drak, Drake in DT, FTH, MIS, CMF, etc. I fill that role very well. I've picked up many named when MT goes down. I've saved many raids from wipes when quickly picking up agro when MT goes down or on mem wipes.</P> <P>There's no question that I can tank every instance KoS raid nearly flawlessly, although it gets very hairy with a couple. Guild in sig.</P> <P> </P> <P>We also never put a pally in MT group either. </P><p>Message Edited by Mgunner on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 PM</span>

[Cenodor]

<DIV>I am the OT for nearly all the raids my guild does. And I have MT'ed pretty much all of the KoS instances at various times. Some fights are tricky as a paladin, but doable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild is Banished on LDL. Currently second in EoF progression on that server.</DIV>

[dubbs]

<P>I imagine many Paladins in raid guilds have been the MT at one time or another.  It's completely possible to MT anything in KoS as a Paladin, but the question is, given both a guardian and a Paladin, why would you chose paladin?</P> <P>It's not a question of being able to do it, it's just the the difference with a guardian tanking (equally equipped of course) is they have alot more tools to mitigate damage and maintain aggro (ToS, Reinforce, Temp mit buffs...)</P> <P>So basically what I'm saying is you will be hard pressed to find a Paladin that is the MAIN MT for any high end raid guild, but you will find that the majority of us are the preferred OT.</P>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div> <p>I imagine many Paladins in raid guilds have been the MT at one time or another.  It's completely possible to MT anything in KoS as a Paladin, but the question is, given both a guardian and a Paladin, why would you chose paladin?</p> <p>It's not a question of being able to do it, it's just the the difference with a guardian tanking (equally equipped of course) is they have alot more tools to mitigate damage and maintain aggro (ToS, Reinforce, Temp mit buffs...)</p> <p>So basically what I'm saying is you will be hard pressed to find a Paladin that is the MAIN MT for any high end raid guild, but you will find that the majority of us are the preferred OT.</p><hr></blockquote>To reinforce this I have not heard of any Paladin tanking Chel'drak or more difficult raid mobs start to finish.  I have heard an SK has done Chel'Drak.  Matron/Mayong+ type encouners are it seems for warriors, and I would say since EOF probably not even zerkers as MT.  I wouldn't want to try them with a crusader MT.</div>

[Crib92]

<P>Why can't people stay on topic and stop spewing the same tired B.S.?  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Guild: Neumond </DIV> <DIV>Server: Innovation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did MT in T5 for Mondblut Raidcom. Some OT in T6, phased out for an Guardian in T7. </DIV>

[Caetrel]

<div></div>Our guild uses 3 MTs, 2 guardians and me.  I RL and prefer to OT and not MT.  There are usually only ever 1-2 of us on any given raid.  I tanked every instanced KoS mob during KoS except Cruor and Cheldrak.   We are equally geared/ experienced and they generally hold up better than me, but I can tank anything my guild can kill, no question. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:07 AM</span>

[Rast]

I don't raid, but I'm the MT for my guild.

[MeridianR]

<div></div>Normally OT, but have MT'd every KoS encounter during the KoS expansion.  You need OT's all the time.Guild - VagabondsServer - Unrest<div></div>..and oh yeah, no Paladin in the MT group.  Pledge doesn't add more then a couple .x% of mitigation, so it's not really worth it.  If you are in there due to say Battle Leadership, then replace the Paladin with a Warden and get the same thing.<p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

I'm starting to do some light OT duty, which is fun change of pace for me. <div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <P>I imagine many Paladins in raid guilds have been the MT at one time or another.  It's completely possible to MT anything in KoS as a Paladin, but the question is, given both a guardian and a Paladin, why would you chose paladin?</P> <P>It's not a question of being able to do it, it's just the the difference with a guardian tanking (equally equipped of course) is they have alot more tools to mitigate damage and maintain aggro (ToS, Reinforce, Temp mit buffs...)</P> <P>So basically what I'm saying is you will be hard pressed to find a Paladin that is the MAIN MT for any high end raid guild, but you will find that the majority of us are the preferred OT.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is a question of being able to do it...that's the whole purpose of this thread.</P> <P>Why pick a Paladin to MT? Why not?</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

Thanks for the responses guys!

[Anariale]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>Why pick a Paladin to MT?<BR></FONT>Because there is no Guardian or Berserker to do it. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Why not?</FONT><BR>Survivability</P> <P> </P> <P>Its really that simple.</P>

[Kaleyen]

I don't know about you guys, but I've become the new Ranger sacrafice. <div></div>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <P>I imagine many Paladins in raid guilds have been the MT at one time or another.  It's completely possible to MT anything in KoS as a Paladin, but the question is, given both a guardian and a Paladin, why would you chose paladin?</P> <P>It's not a question of being able to do it, it's just the the difference with a guardian tanking (equally equipped of course) is <FONT color=#ffff00>they have alot more tools to mitigate damage and maintain aggro</FONT> (ToS, Reinforce, Temp mit buffs...)</P> <P>So basically what I'm saying is you will be hard pressed to find a Paladin that is the MAIN MT for any high end raid guild, but you will find that the majority of us are the preferred OT.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is a question of being able to do it...that's the whole purpose of this thread.</P> <P>Why pick a Paladin to MT? Why not?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Pretty sure i answered your question already.  Paladins CAN tank anything in KoS that a guard can.  But for that matter I wouldn't be surprised if Brigands/Swashes can.  The fact is though that Guardians can do it easier.  The healers have to work less hard because of the Guardian's greater mitigation (less important this expansion) and because of their larger HP pool (plays a huge factor this expansion).  </P> <P>The OP was specifically asking about High End Guilds too,  and there it is all about Min/Max for best possible combination.  Which here is definitely Guardian.</P>

[Kaleyen]

What makes a guild be considered High End? I ask because not all servers are alike, some were made years after the game was released so the server as a whole is far behind in raiding terms then others. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

I have always considered high end guilds to be the guilds that get the majority of contested.  That is just me though, so don't jump on me for my definition <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>My definition has always been guilds that are on the front-end of content.  High-end guilds are ones that have either finished EoF Instances by now, or are at least working on EH with the others all but cleared.</P> <P> </P> <P>W</P>

[Kaleyen]

Gotcha, no high end raiding guilds on Venny then :p <div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>dubbs wrote:</P> <P>Pretty sure i answered your question already.  Paladins CAN tank anything in KoS that a guard can.  But for that matter I wouldn't be surprised if Brigands/Swashes can.  The fact is though that Guardians can do it easier.  The healers have to work less hard because of the Guardian's greater mitigation (less important this expansion) and because of their larger HP pool (plays a huge factor this expansion). </P> <P>The OP was specifically asking about High End Guilds too,  and there it is all about Min/Max for best possible combination.  Which here is definitely Guardian.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well...being the OP, I am saying that the arguement I was having was whether or not Paladins CAN MT or not. That was the arguement. Not who is or isn't better able to do it.<BR>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well...being the OP, I am saying that the arguement I was having was whether or not Paladins CAN MT or not. That was the arguement. Not who is or isn't better able to do it.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well...then to answer your question,  yes Paladins CAN mt,  SKs CAN mt, Bruisers CAN mt, Monks CAN mt, Swashbucklers CAN mt, Brigands CAN mt....</P> <P>I've even seen numerous mages Tank Tarinax for a LONG time and not die until a tank gets aggro back.</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well...being the OP, I am saying that the arguement I was having was whether or not Paladins CAN MT or not. That was the arguement. Not who is or isn't better able to do it.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well...then to answer your question,  yes Paladins CAN mt,  SKs CAN mt, Bruisers CAN mt, Monks CAN mt, Swashbucklers CAN mt, Brigands CAN mt....</P> <P>I've even seen numerous mages Tank Tarinax for a LONG time and not die until a tank gets aggro back.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OK...now you're just being silly. I could care less what the min/maxers of the world say...they limit themselves by only using the "Holy Trinity" like we did back in EQ1. Heck....even the devs said they designed EQ2 to get away from that nonsense but some people just get stuck with their blinders on and refuse to leave the past behind them.</P> <P> </P>

[dubbs]

<P>How am I being silly?  You asked if we can MT...pretty sure I answered your question.</P> <P>Maybe you just don't like the answer and are hoping for a different one?</P> <P>Or maybe you're referring to the fact that Rogues can tank, well I got news for you, they can.  I know it's hard to believe, but when EoF came out I heard of a guild using a Tank specced Brigand for MT until they got server transfers fixed and got a new guard.</P> <P>I know alot of rogues that can tank Crypt of Valdoon, with one healer no less.  Am I happy about that?  Hell no!  But it's the truth.</P>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Paladins can MT fine but we are probably the best OT or back up tank in the game do to our agro management skills. But simple fact is we have nothing that can compete with Guardians Sphere and Tower of Stone that make gaurdians so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill and make them the best MT. Temp mit buff dont mean a whole lot if your over 63% mit anyway. But the fact that they can hit those abilities that they take "no damage" means they will live thru a fight that we "might "not cause the healers can catch up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both the gaurdians that do the MT for our guild carry around about 6 tower shields min for raid. </DIV>

[Uther2000]

I am the MT for most groups and instances.For raids, I always differ to Guardians.I am very seldom the MT for a Raid<div></div>

[TheManInTheBox]

<font face="Comic Sans MS">I am my guild's OT for all our raids unless I am the MT of the raid. I get put in that role from time to time. I've tanked in every kos raid instance out there at one point or another. But my true role is being a OT and I enjoy it. As mentioned earlier OTs are required in quite a few fights and paladins do great.Today I grouped up with 7 other people and killed a contested x4 cube mob with little trouble and I was the MT. The person you refer to is very misinformedI am the Co-leader of Fated and it looks like you got plenty of proof now. <span>:smileytongue:</span></font><div></div>

[Kaleyen]

Question for those that OT...is there another warrior in the raid or an SK there? <div></div>

[enjoilab]

most of the time yes there was another warrior (lesser gear or geared for dps) no sks tho.

[TheManInTheBox]

We usually roll with a guardian as MT. Paladin as OT. The only other plate fighter is a SK whom just usually does dps. He can hold his own against some mobs though.<div></div>

[Crib92]

<DIV>Well got my first crack at tanking an EOF raid.  While it was only Clockwork I did kill it on first try.  I know its pretty easy as far as encounters go but hey was fun to first time a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[redi]

being ot for our raid since day 1 and there is a zerker/monk and sometimes sk with us, but can't hold aggro as pally can. sometimes even peel aggro off of our guard<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

I'm just saying that with 2 warriors on the raid that the Pally won't be the OT. <div></div>

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>I'm just saying that with 2 warriors on the raid that the Pally won't be the OT.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This as a general statement makes no sense to me.  OT is more technical then pure stats or character trait/abilities.</P> <P>The OT position requires skill, if you have a guard who is just learning how to raid or is not as good a player as the Pally in your guild I would put the more skillful tank in that position.  Putting a Guard in OT just because he's a guard may not be the best use of your roster.</P> <P>And, I have to say, if you have a Guard and Zerker in a raid you are not bringing a third tank type into the raid so the point is really moot.</P>

[Rel]

I OT for my guild every raid. We've never seen a problem with it. My miti is nearly that of the MT (gaurdian), my HP is on par. Add blocking mastery and the blocking adornments and it's all good. With a wizard and an aggro generating class I don't usually have much trouble holding aggro. With the exception of multiple encounters at once. I would think with the diminishing returns system the small amount of mitigation our MT has over me is really not an issue. So that leaves hate gen which they do have over crusaders.<div></div>

[Canel]

<P>More than less Iv been becoming OT for raids latly, sometimes over the zerker and sk we bring with us. Everytime we've done clockwork and the other raid instances I am OT. if the tank goes down Im usually the one who grabs aggro mostly, unless one of the other tanks is put in a more hate dumping group than my own.</P> <P>Ive tanked raid mobs several times, not quite as clean cut as a guardian but it's pretty close. When properly buffed I can get my hp into the 10+ks and mit at the 6.3+k line. </P> <P>It also seems that I can usually manage aggro better than the other tanks due to amends, but also cause we get so many in-encoutner and out-encounter aoes, which are not evenly distributed by the other tank classes. </P> <P> </P>

[Original Cinadien]

<div></div>This is for the OP. As leader of an end-game guild who has tried many things to min/max it has become evident over the last few months+ that Pallies or at least our pally is definetly the main choice for split tanking and picking up the slack if the main tank dies. Pallies who know how to utilize their skills are few and far between. I have played with many over the last 2 years and some are just button smashers while other look for ways to manage aggro and use their abilities such as Amends to the best of their ability and contribute to the over-all raid dps while not in a tanking role. Our pally regularly hits the parse even on 23k+ parses. Damage = hate so he likes to die/get aggro but, he is also the first to get aggro when the MT dies and thats what makes him good!The person who was telling you pallies suck might be right becuase the pallies he has seen in that role may have sucked. Ours rocks.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Original Cinadien on <span class=date_text>01-14-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 PM</span>

[TheManInTheBox]

<blockquote><hr>Kaleyen wrote:I'm just saying that with 2 warriors on the raid that the Pally won't be the OT. <div></div><hr></blockquote>False<div></div>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheManInTheBox wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>I'm just saying that with 2 warriors on the raid that the Pally won't be the OT.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>False<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree

[enjoilab]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheManInTheBox wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>I'm just saying that with 2 warriors on the raid that the Pally won't be the OT.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>False<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agreed again...amends plus warlock = aggro you cant even give away...i amended a warlock in dt and tried to do dps...i died 4 times before fitz...then i said f it he can die and took off amends...he died like 3 times then learned his lesson (dont get your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing pally killed)

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enjoilabel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheManInTheBox wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>I'm just saying that with 2 warriors on the raid that the Pally won't be the OT.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>False<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agreed again...amends plus warlock = aggro you cant even give away...i amended a warlock in dt and tried to do dps...i died 4 times before fitz...then i said f it he can die and took off amends...he died like 3 times then learned his lesson (dont get your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing pally killed)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol i tried that on the guild overactive wizzie but he went and squealed..and in an app period thats not a good thing :smileytongue: /sigh Im just the mage death toy hehe

[Daydeee]

<P>60% mitigation, 50+% avoidance, 13-14kHp raid buffed you can stand toe to toe with warriors.</P> <P>Granted Guardians have an edge, but take away a guardian's hate buffers, and control of an encounter lies directly with Knights.<BR>Tank'd alot of Eof Instanced content with the above stats and no problems.</P> <P>That said, a knights true time to shine, is the pick up and drive, when a warrior fumbles the ball. (Plus you get to stick your sword point in the dirt, rest your hands on the pommel, and laugh your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off after the fight.... Rude to do it during the fight you just look arrogant and plus it gets us nerfed)<BR><BR>MT OT Dps. RL<BR>Dark Haven<BR>Splitpaw</P> <P>G'teed to save the day 24/7 or die trying</P> <P>All things being equal, any tank is only as good as his or her heal team... no matter what stats you have on the tin.<BR>After that the only thing that'll kill you is bad planning.</P> <P>Prewarding.. something Warriors just can't do, turn to your friendly shaman, pass amends to her, shout pre ward me baby, smack up sigil of heroism, stuff you never even seen hates you.... you just can't buy agro like that on body pulls... although it  did take two or three encounters before she stopped screaming "i am so going to die..."</P> <P>just my 2cp's</P><p>Message Edited by Daydeee on <span class=date_text>01-17-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:41 PM</span>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Daydeee wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>60% mitigation, 50+% avoidance, 13-14kHp raid buffed you can stand toe to toe with warriors.</p> <p>Granted Guardians have an edge, but take away a guardian's hate buffers, and control of an encounter lies directly with Knights.Tank'd alot of Eof Instanced content with the above stats and no problems.</p> <p>That said, a knights true time to shine, is the pick up and drive, when a warrior fumbles the ball. (Plus you get to stick your sword point in the dirt, rest your hands on the pommel, and laugh your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off after the fight.... Rude to do it during the fight you just look arrogant and plus it gets us nerfed)MT OT Dps. RLDark HavenSplitpaw</p> <p>G'teed to save the day 24/7 or die trying</p> <p>All things being equal, any tank is only as good as his or her heal team... no matter what stats you have on the tin.After that the only thing that'll kill you is bad planning.</p> <p>Prewarding.. something Warriors just can't do, turn to your friendly shaman, pass amends to her, shout pre ward me baby, smack up sigil of heroism, stuff you never even seen hates you.... you just can't buy agro like that on body pulls... although it  did take two or three encounters before she stopped screaming "i am so going to die..."</p> <p>just my 2cp's</p><p>Message Edited by Daydeee on <span class="date_text">01-17-2007</span> <span class="time_text">07:41 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I am so agreeing with this, it could have been me who posted that, xcept I just argue the guard and show him where he is in the aggro-line:far behind me!</div>

[MeridianR]

In the middle of the fight any tank will do, but Guardians have a couple things better in the beginning.1) Tower of Stone2) Temp Mitigation buffs3) Reinforcement (not normally used in the beginning)They are able to absorb hits from a non debuffed mob, much easier then we are.  If I had to give my opinion on our top issue it would be this.  We really have no way to sustain predebuffed heavy melee hitting mobs in the beginning of a fight.  Sure if you have hella healers (and we do) it's possible but it's much tougher to keep a Paladin up in the beginning then it is a Guardian.Plus like me and Viru (Chaotic Legion pally) were talking the other day, our Snap aggro is kinda lacking.  Sure we can have sustained aggro with Amends, but if we lose it, it takes us a lot longer to get it back.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>^--- yes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rast]

<DIV>I still think replacing our death ward with a slower recast, more powerful ward would solve alot of the issues.  Would allow us to double ward before pulls allowing us to take that initial surge of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaving a hair off of the cast time and/or making them uninteruptable woudn't hurt either.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>01-19-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Crib92]

<DIV>Agreed Phov.  And if your amender dies you are S.O.L.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>