Healing Stance? That would be an end of the Healing dilemma

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Since our Achivment boosts our healing, but we don't become healers. </DIV> <DIV>Sinve we should be tanks, we have tons of Healing stuff, causing an lack of Tank utilities. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks and Bruisers have three stances. Why not an third stance for us?</DIV> <DIV>A Healing Stance. </DIV> <DIV>Increasing Ordination and increases healing either by an percentage, something that brings us damned close to an </DIV> <DIV>true healer or an huge symetry bonus. With the drawback of decreasing our combat art and spell damage by the same amount. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would give room to revamp a lot of Paladin EoF Achivement and make us real backup healers. </DIV> <DIV>Paladins could go into an Raid as an 7. Healer typ with one click, some kind of 3. Platehealer. With the damage Inquisitors can bring up, why not really</DIV> <DIV>give Paladins the choice of beeing healers, sacrificing their tank abilities, with just one click. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A third stance for shadowknights could be something like an Spell-Stance, sacrificing combat arts. </DIV>

[dubbs]

<P>All I can say is NO, NO, and NO.</P> <P>I do not want to become a "viable healer", I want to stay a tank and get abilities that increase my ability to Tank.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Seomon]

I thought about this too, and it prob wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Canel]

<DIV>The problem with a healing stance would mean that sony would, once again, nerf us to hell. They would push our spells and abilities into the healing area, where the majority of pallys (from what Ive gathered) do not want to go. If anything, increase our DEF stance to give us ordination or something, but dont go and nerf us so we can get another stance based for healing. All that would make us in groups is a backup healer, or on raids a worthless utility class. </DIV>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Canel, what you describe, is the situation now!</DIV> <DIV>We are nerfed to hell. We are worthless on Raids. <BR>Older paladins (high achivement and Raid equipment) and the lower ones don't feel this so much, but all in between. </DIV> <DIV>Look at the EoF Achivement. Healing Stuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Idea would be, give one stance (a third) that increase Healing so ridicoulus good, that we could be real backup healers. </DIV> <DIV>Then get rid with the EoF Healing achivement stuff and lets get some tanking stuff. </DIV> <DIV>With an healing stance, we could change fast, it wouldn't be skill intensiv and would give us the option, tank or heal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could also get rid of the self and group heal. A single heal, lay on hands and the ward are more then enough. Beyond the case of an healing stance. </DIV> <DIV>I would gladly swap self- anf groupheal for tanking stuff. </DIV> <DIV>Also the single Livetap in the CA's is worthless and a debuff would be more useful. That this livetap can be increased from totaly wortless to total wortless with EoF Achivment doesn't make it better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have nothing against being an backup healer, if this cost me only one skill. </DIV> <DIV>But in the moment, I'am missing much fun by the lack of interesting tank skills. </DIV> <DIV>When I see which effects are on many berserker/guardian skills, I would like to see a bit more creative</DIV> <DIV>tank abilities with the Paladins. In the Moment, it's mediocre Tankability and subpar healer abilites. </DIV> <DIV>That's subpar fun.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wulfborne]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lynassihr wrote:<div>Canel, what you describe, is the situation now!</div> <div>We are nerfed to hell. We are worthless on Raids. Older paladins (high achivement and Raid equipment) and the lower ones don't feel this so much, but all in between. </div> <div>Look at the EoF Achivement. Healing Stuff. </div> <div> </div> <div>My Idea would be, give one stance (a third) that increase Healing so ridicoulus good, that we could be real backup healers. </div> <div>Then get rid with the EoF Healing achivement stuff and lets get some tanking stuff. </div> <div>With an healing stance, we could change fast, it wouldn't be skill intensiv and would give us the option, tank or heal. </div> <div> </div> <div>I could also get rid of the self and group heal. A single heal, lay on hands and the ward are more then enough. Beyond the case of an healing stance. </div> <div>I would gladly swap self- anf groupheal for tanking stuff. </div> <div>Also the single Livetap in the CA's is worthless and a debuff would be more useful. That this livetap can be increased from totaly wortless to total wortless with EoF Achivment doesn't make it better. </div> <div> </div> <div>I have nothing against being an backup healer, if this cost me only one skill. </div> <div>But in the moment, I'am missing much fun by the lack of interesting tank skills. </div> <div>When I see which effects are on many berserker/guardian skills, I would like to see a bit more creative</div> <div>tank abilities with the Paladins. In the Moment, it's mediocre Tankability and subpar healer abilites. </div> <div>That's subpar fun.  </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Lynassihr,What you propose is essentially sweeping changes to the paladin class. Removing the self heals and group heals? Adding a 3rd stance? Completely doing away with the EoF healing lines? That would cripple our class. Even if it were to go as you outline, how would a single 'healing stance' make up for the loss of group heals, our self heal and all the EoF healing line? We'd end up being an even worse back-up healer than we are presently. Even if that one stance made the 1 heal you mention us having cost like 1/4 the mana, refresh near instantly and insta-cast to make up for the loss of the rest of the heals, then honestly I see people SCREAMING to nerf us...  After all, that'd give us the ability to switch from upper-mid DPS'er to good tank (with your new tank line where the EoF heal AA's were), to sweet healer almost with nothing more than a switch of stance.I agree that we as a class need more in order to tank more effectively, but I believe it should come in the form of fixing the poopy Divine Aura version we have and revamping the EoF tank line. I'd think that tweaking things we already have implemented in game is far more likely to happen than completely overhauling our heals, stances AND AA's.~Hawke</div>

[Rast]

<P>no, no, no and for emphasis no!</P> <P>I didn't roll a paladin to be a bloody healer.</P>

[MeridianR]

As soon as people realize that the most viable situation for Paladins post EoF is pretty much a hybrid healer / utility / OT, I think there stance on this might change <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As much as it would be a direct and absolute blow to the whole tanking situation for Paladins' I could actually see a healing stance being decent.....<div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<P>Wulfbane, </P> <P>canceling two heals wasn't ment to me be mixed with healing stance idea. In my opinion, in the momentary situation, most Paladins could live without these two for two nice tanking skills. </P> <P> </P> <P>Raston, </P> <P>what are we now? What do we bring a Berserker, Shadowknight or Guardian can't do, as a Tank? Where is our niche? Most people (Paladin) say they don't want to be hybrids/Utility. I agree with you in this also! I haven't rolles a Paladin to be a healer. </P> <P>But SOE has no Idea what to do with Paladins, so they increase their "unique" ability of healing (with EoF Achivement) to make them different. This "different" doesn't help us in our real role, the tanking. </P> <P>But how to get out of this dilemma? SOE has NEVER changed Achivement Skills themself, switching one for an other. That takes me much hope, beyond the next Add On with the next Achivement System that brings an Uber Achivement for tanking, to compensate for the momentary two systems. </P> <P>From this, what way out of this. My Idea would, not being Hybrid, but an Option to switch from one role to the other for the benefit of increased tanking abilities. </P> <P>But I say, the healing is more an problem for the development of the Paladins as an class, than it is an benefit. SOE is affraid of letting us become the 7. Healer, but they also are affraid of becoming us Nr. 2 behind the Guardian in defensiv capabilities. Since Berserker and Shadowknight are offensiv. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Rast]

<P>Actually, there have been several very good suggestions put here that would bring us upto par without making us 'better' than the guardian.</P> <P>Reduce our cast times / make our heals uninteruptable - What point is a the balance to the paladin if you can't use it when the balancing is needed?</P> <P>Add a second (high level) ward that stacks with our current ward.  Make this one based off of max hps and a one time skill.  Some have recommended replacing our joke of a 'death ward' with this (or something like it) and I think that is a great idea.  This gives us some level of scalablity without turning us into backup healers.</P> <P>I kinda like turning our 'heal attacks' into wards, that would give us a group and self ward that would 'simulate' the abilities of a debuff without being a debuff.  Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing every one of our heals except LoH turned into wards, it makes sense to me, but not sure what that would do to our 'uberness'.</P> <P>I think our defensive stance needs some serious work, quite honestly it sucks.  When I can tank better in SoS in offensive than defensive, there is a real problem with the stance.  As it stands right now, our defensive stance doesn't give us that much more mit, does nothing good for our power and severely cripples our DPS, it simply isn't worth it.  Maybe back when getting to the stat cap was relatively easy it meant more, but right now based on my experience, it isn't.</P> <P>I think one thing that really hurts us is the fact we have to have some balance to all stats, not our healing but the fact we need both str and wis for power, str and int for damage, agi for avoidance and sta for health.  I believe we are the only tank that has that requirement now that they moved SKs to int for power instead of wis.  I've thought that they should move our damage to wis instead of int to compensate, allowing us to concentrate on at least one less stat.</P>

[MeridianR]

Defensive stance fix is quite simple - add the + parry that Warriors get.  Give them the +wisdom we have, makes it the same (since well an Adept 1 and Master give most of the same things anyway, might as well make the class ones the same)<div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>Adding 13-14 levels to parry will not make us better raid tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any changes to Paladins have to come with abilities that scale well as the mob increases in level.  Parry does the opposite... it falls apart quickly.  From my parses, Parry on epic mobs is ~1/3rd of delve.  Block on epic mobs is ~3/4 of block.  Granted, these numbers move around a lot.  Still, increasing Parry by 13-14 levels is going to be realistically ~1% better avoidance.  Its simply not worth bothering over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while the concept of a healing/nuking stance is good... I do not think its the right direction to take the Paladin.  All this will do is make us less of a tank and more support.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

Since we already have the +block AA, and being as though block is by far the best form of avoidance, I don't see us getting anymore added <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So since there is already +defense on the stance, the only real thing to add would be +parry.  It's not much, but there isn't much else that can be added to the stance to make it any better.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>How about we make our defensive stance +sta and +wis instead of just +wis?  Would give us a little more health to go with the stance.</P> <P>Not sure how much that would help though, any ideas?</P>

[MeridianR]

+stamina isn't going to help that much either, mainly because of the curve.  Now a raw +hp, that would rock...but I don't see that happening either.<div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>The sad moment is, the defensiv stance is just the first "change" beyond all the skills that have to be fixed (Divine Aura...). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Point SOE has to come is to recognise that backup Healer is something most of the Paladin community don't want to be, and that backup is neither fun nor challenging. Also the Idea of an defensiv hierachy should be modified. In the moment Guardians to much own the territory of the defensiv. Equal don't have to be totaly equal, but more arround 10% difference and not 30% in taking Damage (as shown by Wyrd in an other thread). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The heals are just shiny from the outside, but not much worth for tanking. In the daily business healing is not much needed, since a real Healer does this Job for us. </DIV> <DIV>So, compare, lets imagine the 5 skills with healing currently switched to 5 skills for tanking, and then counting how often the skills get used, I would bet on the tanking. Most of the time a healer will spare us from using our own heals. So we are wasting 5 Skills, which is arround 20% of our skills in the hotbar. That is 20% less effectivity. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beyond this, what Raston mentioned, making heals uninteruptable, the reason behind this is our daily fate, the heals are interrupted so often, that they become an annoying tool. Used, 'cause nothing else is avaible. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Death Ward is quite the biggest waste. The only interesting part would be counting how many Paladins have them in the hot bar (I havn't). </DIV> <DIV>My guessing, only a few have it. Btw, it is one more skill with very limited use, as it could only applied in one situation, before dead, and doesn't help then. Other tank classes have on Level 58. </DIV> <DIV>- Deathmarch (SK) highly used I guess. Our Shadowknights love it as an instrument of mass destruction. </DIV> <DIV>- Fall of the Phoenix (Monk) Group Feign Death</DIV> <DIV>- Close Mind (Bruiser) Immunity to control effects</DIV> <DIV>- Tower of Stone (Guardian) Absorb 3 Attacks over 10% completely</DIV> <DIV>- Open Wounds (Zerker) short attack speed buff with autoattack hitting 4 enemies with the Autoattack. </DIV> <DIV>Compared to this, our Divine Favor sucks!</DIV> <DIV>A Dragon/Unicorn/Behemoth (like in Everfrost) as an Ridiing pet with nice stats for us, an Intercept that transfers damage from us to someone else...</DIV> <DIV>Creativity is nearly endless against an useless skill. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I see, if SOE should to something, they should do it right. Not a few fixes. A nice overhaul of the Paladin. </DIV> <DIV>- fixing the abilities, skills as AA</DIV> <DIV>- bring us away from the healing back to tanking. </DIV> <DIV>- exchange Divinie Favor and Consecrate (not scaling) to some useful skills. </DIV> <DIV>- exchange of the EoF Healing AA with an Tanking AA. </DIV> <DIV>- Modification of the KoS Agilty Line, as it has no use now, Mounts can't be used in Dungeons. </DIV> <DIV>- looking into our survivabilty, bringing us on par minimal to the Zerkers, more short behind the Guardians, as Zerkers deal more Damage then we.  </DIV> <DIV>- and far more what many Paladins have shown in this Forum. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Stats Issue is one of the next points, and again I go with Raston. A Class that needs all 5 Stats is more pressed than a guardian, who is happy with 2-3 attributes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rast]

I know Meridian, but it would be better than nothing at this point.  Right now, I have no use at all for the defensive stance.  As I said, I tanked SoS last purely in offensive stance (all of us were 63 or mentored 63) a Pally, Templar, Conjurer and a Dirge.  Specifically we were working on Soul Survivor.

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">Older paladins (high achivement and Raid equipment) and the lower ones don't feel this so much <hr size="2" width="100%">I think the old pallies feel it the worst.  Anyone who has been playing since Nov 04, raids, and is well equipped <i>keenly </i>feels the inadequacies of our class.  The only people I hear raving about how we are a great class are the level 30 guys and the guys who think they own because they tanked Vyemm. <div></div>

[Drastar]

<DIV>I find even leveling up it is better to be in Offensive Stance with board/sword than to be in Defensive Stance. This is of course if I am tanking green to yellow con mobs. What I think SoE should do is add something to our Defensive Stance. I really don't know what would be good, but it just needs something. Healing Stance is a bad idea IMO. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Atheros01 on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Canel, what you describe, is the situation now!</DIV> <DIV>We are nerfed to hell. We are worthless on Raids. <BR>Older paladins (high achivement and Raid equipment) and the lower ones don't feel this so much, but all in between. </DIV> <DIV>Look at the EoF Achivement. Healing Stuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Idea would be, give one stance (a third) that increase Healing so ridicoulus good, that we could be real backup healers. </DIV> <DIV>Then get rid with the EoF Healing achivement stuff and lets get some tanking stuff. </DIV> <DIV>With an healing stance, we could change fast, it wouldn't be skill intensiv and would give us the option, tank or heal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could also get rid of the self and group heal. A single heal, lay on hands and the ward are more then enough. Beyond the case of an healing stance. </DIV> <DIV>I would gladly swap self- anf groupheal for tanking stuff. </DIV> <DIV>Also the single Livetap in the CA's is worthless and a debuff would be more useful. That this livetap can be increased from totaly wortless to total wortless with EoF Achivment doesn't make it better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have nothing against being an backup healer, if this cost me only one skill. </DIV> <DIV>But in the moment, I'am missing much fun by the lack of interesting tank skills. </DIV> <DIV>When I see which effects are on many berserker/guardian skills, I would like to see a bit more creative</DIV> <DIV>tank abilities with the Paladins. In the Moment, it's mediocre Tankability and subpar healer abilites. </DIV> <DIV>That's subpar fun.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>okay, A) I have been playing this game since the first week of Dec 04, 5 live updates in, before they nerfed us to hell.</P> <P>B) I am now a raiding paladin who is fully equiped and reads these forums to garner how I may be the best of usefullness to a raid. I am usually nowadays the backup tank, with the dps lines that they give us. Healing is nice, but it is best left to the healers. I will chuck of a heal now and again, but mainly because +950hp is nice to a MT before the healers get their stuff in. But we are best at trying to do as much dmg as possible, while throwing up interceds and mabye a few wards during a raid fight.</P> <P> </P> <P>Raiston (spelling?) had a point, so many pallys didnt create them so they could be godamn healers. We created them becasue we wanted an edge over other tanks with being able to utilize healing spells to tanking skill.</P>

[Rast]

It's Raston, but I've been called far worse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kaleyen]

Few points to make here. 1.  It doesn't matter why we created a Paladin and how we wanted them to be, we are limited by the tools that SOE has given us in any role. 2. Yes we can be the "back-up MT" and do a good job at it, however with the coming of EoF we were given other tools besides tanking, we can either chose to embrace what we are now, or whine and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about them. Personally, I am with the rest of you, I made a Paladin in hopes of tanking raid encounters, looked forward to it but instead of resisting what I can do and trying to do what I had hoped to do I am able to do much more for my raid. On named fights I can heal just as much as any Non-MT group healer, this excludes rez'ing as when I go healer mode, it's the dirge's job to rez.  So while we're doing named encounters and I've healed the MT as much as any other healer, but was able to do 200-350 Ext DPS while doing so on my own, along with having amends on the Wizzy so he can do more damage and tossing up intercede now and then I have helped my raid win the encounter.  And no I don't have arch heal yet. So I can do all that when I'm not tanking yet all a Guardian can do is moderate DPS and throw up an intercede now and then. My guild usually has two warriors on raids, one to MT and one as backup, however when we only have 1 warrior with us the SK will play backup because none of them can do what I can do when they're not tanking.  However I have MT'd before and done a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine job of it on raids when they need to split tank something.  So what's my point here? Yes I had hoped that Paladins would be the second choice of raid tanks behind Guardians, but we're not.  I had to decide if I wanted to keep going against the grain and resisting about how I should be able to tank just as well, or go with what SOE's idea of what a Paladin should be and use every ability I was given to the fullest. <div></div>

[Rast]

<P>Sorry Kaleyen, but that isn't my personality.  I don't think the paladin needs sweeping changes, but I believe we SHOULD be put where we deserve and that is in the MT (along with, not supplanting the Guardian) role, not as some healer wanna be.  IF I wanted that, I'd play my templar.</P> <P>The only way change will be gotten is to complain, that is the only hope we have of being what we should have been from the start (and were for a while).  Just remember the old saying 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'.  If we don't complain they will think we accept the fact we are just worthless now in the role many of us became paladins to become.</P> <P>I intend to be a main tank, I want no other role.  In a way, I am glad you enjoy the way they are now, I don't.</P>

[Anzak]

Dear god no.....I would quit the game if they gave us a healing stance.  I would rather see them focus more I putting us back into a place where we can tank raid mobs close to equally with guards and give us situational raid tanking.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <p>Sorry Kaleyen, but that isn't my personality.  I don't think the paladin needs sweeping changes, but I believe we SHOULD be put where we deserve and that is in the MT (along with, not supplanting the Guardian) role, not as some healer wanna be.  IF I wanted that, I'd play my templar.</p> <p>The only way change will be gotten is to complain, that is the only hope we have of being what we should have been from the start (and were for a while).  Just remember the old saying 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'.  If we don't complain they will think we accept the fact we are just worthless now in the role many of us became paladins to become.</p> <p>I intend to be a main tank, I want no other role.  In a way, I am glad you enjoy the way they are now, I don't.</p><hr></blockquote>Heck, do a search on all the Pally and tanking threads over the past year or so and you'll see me right in there.  And what has all that gotten the Pally class in terms of more tank utility?  24% to Block See my point?  I've stopped complaining about what we lack and I've started to use what we have.<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>My take on this discussion:  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before considering a healing stance, fix what is broken first.  Replace the deathward(non deathward) level 58 divine favor with a self only percentage based ward, 2 minute recast 30 second duration ward that renews iteself per tick.  Stacks with other caster wards and any left over before next tick heals the caster.  Take our former 2 handed only strike combat art and revamp it.  Currently it does lackluster divine damage, not even double to undead.  Change it to be a PBAOE debuff to the mobs, pick your percentage of DPS reduction or apply a large slow to the mobs to slow autoattack rate down, whatever would be the most likely to get approved.   Toss in the plus parry skills on our defense stance, no reason we as a melee fighter class sgould be penalized for gaining wisdom to help our multi power requirements, if not parry then beef up our ministration/ordination so our heals/wards cost less when we use them to protect ourselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those that want to get rid of all but our lay on hands and single target heals, play a warrior and get out of the forum.  Even if you played a paldin from day one, you knew our class has healing abilities and if you dont want them roll another player.  Any other game i have played has had healing associated to paladins.  Our issue isnt on heals, it is the effictiveness on our wards, bugged AA stoneskin ability and missing components on a few spells/stances.  I agree that having our heals'wards labeled as a combat art for not being interrupted while moving would be a major plus, i wouldnt change the rest.  We have went thru before that our self heal should be a quicker casting time, and yes it should be down to at least a second instead of 3 seconds.  Our  divine aura they need to figure out.  It has went back to considering only unmitigated damage on the 50% calculation.  They should simplify it and say anything that does more than 20% health it absorbs for up to 10 times with a recast of 10 minutes, far more effective than 30 hits and a 30 minute recast timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is a problem with consecrate not scaling, then fix the scaling, not remove the spell.  Some may not use it but i would imagine the vast majority like using this whenever it is up and wont kill the group/raid from roving adds.  This is a class spell that is really unique to our class and if it needs scaling, then change it to scale properly.  Along the same lines i would have castigate increased by at least 30 levels of curing to be able to remove 2 effects per school instead of 1.  The castigate change maybe too powerful but i would think the other options would be doable.</DIV>

[Rast]

<P>Oh, I use what we have and I'm getting much better with it.  And I'm not one calling for massive changes (most of the time).  A tweak here, a tweak there is all I really think we need to be where we should be and it wouldn't impact the versitility for those who want to be more jack of all trade oriented or those who want to be off tanks or even healer wanna bes.  But why should those choices be given precedence over those who want to be MTs...  to the point where being a paladin MT is almost oxymoronic.</P> <P>I've played paladins/crusaders in a lot of games and unfortunately it often comes to this in them, which side of the hybrid should be the dominate half, I always want to push the fighter/tank side while the systems want to push the healer side.  As I've said before, I don't want to be a guardian, I don't want to be a healer with some tanking, I want to be a tank with some healing.</P> <P>If I had to boil down what I think needs to happen into 3 changes, I would have to go with.</P> <OL> <LI>Remove all our 'heals' and make them wards, our abilities should be proactive, not reactive as they are meant to be a defense, not a 'oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]' factor.  The exception to this is the LoH line, which is what it should be, an emergency heal and nothing more.</LI> <LI>Move our abilities from spells to CAs.  This would allow us to more effectively use these while tanking, a huge complaint in the Paladin community.</LI> <LI>replace our death ward (divine favor?) with a % based self only ward that would provide us with a % of our max health in a ward.  I think this would finish what we need to be effective in the tank role and it wouldn't impact the others who wish to play their role either.</LI></OL> <P>I think those three tweaks would be the difference between us being a 5th rate tank to being up around the warriors for tanking.  But it still wouldn't diminish our ability as an off tank or those who *shudder* want to play a healer with taunts.</P>

[PattontheGen]

<P>The painful fact is that the pally is a blurred line. </P> <P> </P> <P>We are good at healing, decent at dps, sad at mit...ect...but what we are not is great at any one thing. </P> <P>Other class's out there are know for being great at one thing at the min...guard...mit..agro control..zerker..dps..scout ranged dps...healer...well they heal..nice group buffs..ect..ect..the list goes on and on. </P> <P>but pally..well..again we are decent at a few things but are not great at any one thing..we are lost some where in the middle </P> <P> </P> <P>Just my thoughts</P>

[Kaleyen]

The mistake on SOE's part was in thinking that they could impliment a Paladin and SK class in EQ2, put them into the fighter tree and not call them hybrids. <div></div>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PattontheGen wrote:<BR> <P>The painful fact is that the pally is a blurred line. </P> <P> </P> <P>We are good at healing, decent at dps, sad at mit...ect...but what we are not is great at any one thing. </P> <P>Other class's out there are know for being great at one thing at the min...guard...mit..agro control..zerker..dps..scout ranged dps...healer...well they heal..nice group buffs..ect..ect..the list goes on and on. </P> <P>but pally..well..again we are decent at a few things but are not great at any one thing..we are lost some where in the middle </P> <P> </P> <P>Just my thoughts</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I disagree with one thing here...  I think the pallys do have one thing they do great, better than the other fighters in alot of cases.  Agro Management.  We are better at maintaining agro (not snap, but consistant agro) than other classes with the right class set up and with that ability we allow someone else do more damage than they otherwise might have been able to do (without drawing agro).  If we could simply get slightly tweaked on a couple things, then we could be a very durable tank and very capable off tank, which to be honest, is all I really want.

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>The mistake on SOE's part was in thinking that they could impliment a Paladin and SK class in EQ2, put them into the fighter tree and not call them hybrids.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with this Kaleyen.  You can't have someone like a Paladin and not acknowledge their hybrid status.  </P> <P>In some ways I kinda wish they had used the more DnD variant, where the paladin simply gets cleric spells at half their level, but are a full fighter otherwise.  Loose out on some weapon specializations and such to get the clerical spells.  But that would call for a full rewrite of not only the paladin, but other classes which I do not think either fair OR logical.  Though getting complete templar abilities only at half effectiveness would have been interesting, IF they stacked properly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kaleyen]

With the new EoF AA lines I don't think we are any better nor worse at maintaining agro then SK's or even Zerkers due to their tanking DPS. <div></div>

[Rast]

<DIV>Well, I know that for me amends works exceptionally well.  I rarely if ever lose agro these days and when I do, it is normally a very simple matter to get it back.</DIV>

[PattontheGen]

<P>Agree....Amends is a great spell and makes life so much better when we have that on..not very often that  I lose agro</P> <P> </P> <P>However either way you look at it we not not awsome at any one strong thing...we are middle of the road at a lot of things..which is fun..but I  sure would love to be awsome at just one  thing</P>

[Ratora]

<DIV>How about a self proc'ing ward on our defensive stance.  According to SOE our tanking abilities are supposed to lie in healing and warding.  They could do a % based or straight amount, either way would be good.</DIV>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratora wrote:<BR> <DIV>How about a self proc'ing ward on our defensive stance.  According to SOE our tanking abilities are supposed to lie in healing and warding.  They could do a % based or straight amount, either way would be good.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>interesting idea and it would definately give a reason to fight in defensive for a change.

[Rob89]

<P>I have a hard time to belive all the things you all says here tbh.</P> <P>I have no problems at all tanknig most raid content in game. </P> <P>I dont se any problems with the paladin. They work fine and i dont need anymore stances on my pally. Other fighters got one offensive and one deffensive stance BUT they all got a short term stance that we paladins miss, probably we got our ward instead of that.</P> <P>Paladins lack mit? Thats not right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>A paladin can get up to 5.5-5.6 k mit. I can get over 6k mit raidbuffed. So thats not right. At the end Eq2 is more designed for the Endgame content. A paladin have no problem to match the other classes when full fabled raid equiped and its from that point you have to look. </P> <P>I know that everyone dont raid but thats probably how SoE see it. If they would increase the paladin class they would be way overpowered in raids and stuff. They need to keep it balanced and as far i can se it its very good as it is now.</P> <P>The paladin only have a avoidance problem compared to guards and zerkers.</P> <P>And dps, same here. Full fabled paladin with 400-600 int and going int line with the spell crit does great dps. Parse from 900-1400 in raid in offensive stance. If they would increase our dps that would couse some big problems with the endgame content.</P> <P>I dont se any problems at all with the pally class from my view, that is End-game raiding content. If they would change the paladin as you want it, then the balance would dissapear.</P> <P>A paladin CAN TANK ALL RAIDS. Its just a matter of skill and group setups.</P>

[Mgunner]

<P>Here's my 2cp.</P> <P>I've been a paladin since day 1, first one on my server. I've been in raid guilds since I hit level 50. I've been to every raid zone and killed almost every contested in the game. I've been through it all. Every change/nerf to our class. Every improvement done as well. And my main problem I have from all my experiences.......</P> <P>Desirability.<BR></P> <P>Face it, hardcore raiding guilds are built around the Guardian as the MT. They get first crack at all the drops. They are by SOE definition the true tank. Serkers are a close second. They are the same archtype, so this makes sense. Paladins have the ability to be a tank, as do some other fighter classes, but raids aren't looking for them outside of some OT duties here and there and to help tank single group instances for quest updates. </P> <P>What they did do is give us what they believe are useful utilities to comensate. We were granted a pledge line that helps increase the mit of your MT. Well, hate to break it to SOE, but being in the MT group to use this spell is a hinderance. Not many pally's are in MT groups. Returns curve pretty much sealed that deal. We were granted a rez spell, whoopie, 60 second rez that requires running during a laggy raid to stand on top of someone. We were granted heal spells, /sigh. Tell me the last time we were inserted into any group or raid for that one. We are given amends, great at keeping agro, on nights when the guardians don't log in.</P> <P>This brings me back to my point. Desireability. There really isn't much desire for paladins from the rest of the raid. If I didn't log in, I wouldn't be missed, with the rare exceptions like the Three Princesses. We suck as a MT and we suck as a healer. We suck compared to any other DPS class. We don't enhance any other class considerably. We don't improve scouts, mages, healers, or fighters like the numerous of other useful utilities. For example, power regen, dps, haste, or group hate transfers. </P> <P>I admit, I still enjoy playing my paladin, maybe because I feel loyal to this toon because i've played him so long. But I'm also not going to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about this without offering some suggestions, many have been tossed around for a long time now.</P> <P>1) Raid worthy ability, ie, mana regen, group hate reduction, DPS buff, etc.  Call of Duty doesn't cut it. Dirges are the scout equivelant as pally's in terms of DPS. They don't don't the DPS to their bigger brothers, much like pallys are to other tanks, but they offer some of the most desirable utility in the game.</P> <P>2) Give us a real emergency tanking ability. None of this Divine Aura garbage that you need to spend a lot of AA to get. Something along the lines of a guardians Tower of Stone. Face it, ToS has saved many raids. Without this, guardians would suck like the rest of us. </P> <P>3) If we are to have heals, make them CA's and improve casting speeds. If heals seperate us from other tanks, allow me to actually use them. Part of tanking is putting the mob in a certain place. A guardian can ToS on the pull while getting the mob in placed and while it gets debuffed. Tsunami for monks. I should be able to heal, and quickly. Nope, I get the joy of taking large damage spikes and I can't cast my heals which is what is suppose to make us unique.</P> <P>4) Change Divine Strike. Here's my idea. There are so many buffs that increase the damage done to a mob. Whether it be, a Dispatch debuff, or a DPS or Haste buff.  Since we are hybrids, allow us to have a Healer enhancing buff.  All healers in the Paladins group gains 50% chance to cast a critical heal.  Or a one minute recast 10 sec buff you can place on the MT that increases the effectiveness of all heals by 10%.....At least with this type of utility, there would be 6 healers that want paladins on a raid. I would be willing to let them nerf our own heals in exchange of Healer based buffs.</P>

[Faelgalad]

<P>I agree with Mgunner. Desirability is nearly Zero. ALL other Tank classes can do better now then we. Our good Aggro managment is eaten up by our low damage. </P> <P> </P> <P>Rob89, </P> <P>fine if you can do it, even as I have doubts about this. Then you're the exceptional Paladin in this Forum with 3 others maybe. Good for you, but doesn't solve the Problems of the Rest of us. </P> <P>Fact is, there is not a single Raiding Maintank Paladin, not even Offtank,  on Innovation Server I know. And I'am the leader in a Raidcom of the largest guild on my Server (Neumond), and quite large even for other servers (26. Worldwide). I know quite some people. All that Mgunner says about Paladins is true on Innovation, even more extreme. Paladins are nearly nonexistend in the professional Raidguild! In the High Levels, they are dying as an class. </P> <P>In my Guild, </P> <P>33 Guardians, </P> <P>27 Berserkers</P> <P>24 Bruiser</P> <P>21 Paladins</P> <P>20 Monks</P> <P>20 Shadowknights. </P> <P>From the 6 Paladins over Level 60, I'am the only one in a Raidcom (which I founded), from the 6 active Guardians over 60, 5 are in Raidcoms. </P> <P>If you're well equipped, fine. Most of us don't get this chance, as we don't get into Raidcoms! You have your raid, and you're exceptional equipped, fine. </P> <P>Rest of us has high proplems. I see the numbers Wyrd has put in with the same Raidforce into this Forum. This matches my experiences! Show me numbers of you and your Raidcom, the correlation of the MT Group against an 70. Guardian MT. </P> <P>My Guardian in my Raid does things much easier, gets less hit then I'am. In the same Raid, same people, same enemy, with an MT Group of my chosing. What I bring into the Raid is, I'am the Raidleader. As soon as my Troubadour is Level 55, I bring my Troubadour into T7, as he is more useful than an Paladin Level 70. </P> <P> </P> <P>So, somebody might say, Paladin is fine for normal Game, lacks Raiding Abilities. We compete for Group places in normal Groups for heroic instances with Guardians, Bersi...</P> <P>Guess who is favored? Right, the Berserker and Guardians own the territory on Innovation. Maybe Germans are cool calculating people and know the numbers. </P> <P>Paladin is not balanced against the other Tank classes. I enjoy that Shadowknights got some love. Combat Change has increased surivabilty of Monks and Bruiser as far as I can judge this. Paladin is even in normal Gameplay with problems. Not when you're in Fabled Armor. But with Paladins get no chance on Fabled Gear on Innovation, we have it harder against all other tank classes. With so much hindrances versus other Tanks, we don't get as often into the nice heroic Instances. </P> <P>My own Guild leader said to me, as I asked for Nizara, "Sorry, your not good enough equipped". </P>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rob89 wrote:<BR> <P>I have a hard time to belive all the things you all says here tbh.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I have no problems at all tanknig most raid content in game.</FONT> </P> <P>I dont se any problems with the paladin. They work fine and i dont need anymore stances on my pally. Other fighters got one offensive and one deffensive stance BUT they all got a short term stance that we paladins miss, probably we got our ward instead of that.</P> <P>Paladins lack mit? Thats not right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>A paladin can get up to 5.5-5.6 k mit. I can get over 6k mit raidbuffed. So thats not right. At the end Eq2 is more designed for the Endgame content. A paladin have no problem to match the other classes when full fabled raid equiped and its from that point you have to look. </P> <P>I know that everyone dont raid but thats probably how SoE see it. If they would increase the paladin class they would be way overpowered in raids and stuff. They need to keep it balanced and as far i can se it its very good as it is now.</P> <P>The paladin only have a avoidance problem compared to guards and zerkers.</P> <P>And dps, same here. Full fabled paladin with 400-600 int and going int line with the spell crit does great dps. Parse from 900-1400 in raid in offensive stance. If they would increase our dps that would couse some big problems with the endgame content.</P> <P>I dont se any problems at all with the pally class from my view, that is End-game raiding content. If they would change the paladin as you want it, then the balance would dissapear.</P> <P>A paladin CAN TANK ALL RAIDS. Its just a matter of skill and group setups.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's not that a paladin can't tank all raids, it's that we don't do it as well. Insert guardian/berserker. It's not that we can't do some DPS, it's just that we don't do it as well, insert every other fighter ahead of us. It's not that we can't heal, we just don't do it as well, insert every healer class.</P> <P>Fortunately for me, I'm in a guild of 27.  A mandatory attendence raiding guild. I'm almost guaranteed a spot in the raid. We have two paladins on the roster. In the odd instance that every single person logs in on a raid night, guess which class gets to sit. I don't bring anything to the raid that is deemed important. The only saving grace is that some of the content in EoF requires multiple tanks. </P> <P>I would like to bring something useful and desireable to a raid. In a scout group, they want DPS buffs and Haste. In mage groups, they want power regen. Both groups want hate control.  Then there's the MT group, where our mit transfer is meaningless. If we aren't the MT, where does that put us. At least other fighter classes can hold their own in the melee enhanced groups. Sure, I can do 1200 DPS on a single target, but why not put our bruiser in who will pwn me in DPS.</P> <P>Basically it almost feels as if I am just tagging along and occasionally contributing in OT scenarios, which any fighter class can do. </P> <P> </P>

[Anariale]

<P>I agree with Wozamil.  </P> <P>While Id like to argue that my healing as a Paladin is better than adding a 7th healer to the raid... or that my block of 25% really helps out and holds up against high epics... or that the extra 425 Mit from pledge really does help out... in the end, Paladins (and SK's) are just expendable classes.  They arent necessary.  They dont bring anything drastically unique to the raid and you can easily survive even the hardest encounters without one even being in the guild.</P> <P>Granted, at the same time I think you can get by without a lot of fighters.  Brawlers are nice because of their DPS and the group-buffs they give.  26% DPS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crap-tastic Divine Procs.  The bottom line is that there arent too many encounters where you need 3 plate tanks on the raid... and even if you did, you would rather have 3 Guardians anyways.</P> <P>W</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 PM</span>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>I agree with Wozamil.  </P> <P>While Id like to argue that my healing as a Paladin is better than adding a 7th healer to the raid... or that my block of 25% really helps out and holds up against high epics... or that the extra 425 Mit from pledge really does help out... in the end, Paladins (and SK's) are just expendable classes.  They arent necessary.  They dont bring anything drastically unique to the raid and you can easily survive even the hardest encounters without one even being in the guild.</P> <P>Granted, at the same time I think you can get by without a lot of fighters.  Brawlers are nice because of their DPS and the group-buffs they give.  26% DPS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crap-tastic Divine Procs.  The bottom line is that there arent too many encounters where you need 3 plate tanks on the raid... and even if you did, you would rather have 3 Guardians anyways.</P> <P>W</P> <P>Message Edited by Anariale on <SPAN class=date_text>01-04-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:42 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>3 princes need a brawler and a crusader. Outside of that.....nothing. All those broken promises from SOE saying that we would be ideal in certain situations got flushed down the offices there in California. Your right, Brawlers got some really nice stuff that make them wanted. I shiver at the thought of even dueling our Bruiser.

[Anariale]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mgunner wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>I agree with Wozamil.  </p> <p>While Id like to argue that my healing as a Paladin is better than adding a 7th healer to the raid... or that my block of 25% really helps out and holds up against high epics... or that the extra 425 Mit from pledge really does help out... in the end, Paladins (and SK's) are just expendable classes.  They arent necessary.  They dont bring anything drastically unique to the raid and you can easily survive even the hardest encounters without one even being in the guild.</p> <p>Granted, at the same time I think you can get by without a lot of fighters.  Brawlers are nice because of their DPS and the group-buffs they give.  26% DPS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crap-tastic Divine Procs.  The bottom line is that there arent too many encounters where you need 3 plate tanks on the raid... and even if you did, you would rather have 3 Guardians anyways.</p> <p>W</p> <p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class="date_text">01-04-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:42 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>3 princes need a brawler and a crusader. Outside of that.....nothing. All those broken promises from SOE saying that we would be ideal in certain situations got flushed down the offices there in California. Your right, Brawlers got some really nice stuff that make them wanted. I shiver at the thought of even dueling our Bruiser.<hr></blockquote>Actually, you can do Princes with 3 Guardians... its been done many times before like that.Oh, and Paladins actually aint half bad at dueling.  just go full defensive against melee classes and watch them never hit you... keep timing your stuns and heals and just out-last them.  W</div>

[hawsecav19d]

<P>If you really wanted to make yourself a utility tank there is AA options that allow for it and make you valuable to raid wiz or scout group.  In KoS go Int 4/5/8/8 Max your crit heals then take Wis tree go 4/4/8/8 give you group +32 to all offencive buffs and max hp regen.</P> <P>In EoF max  top 4 in heals/wards get last heal. Branch off grab 5pts in Armorment gives group 700extra mit increases most cloth wearers by 8-12% mit 5-9% for chain. Take Hero line take opener,debuff, extra hps then max sigil to give you 20secs to take groups agro. Spend rest in improving group proc spell % chance.</P> <P>My  ideal group setup in raid  would go Pal/Healer/Dirge/Brig/Bru/Assassin, Healer gets to concentrate on MT  and hit the group cures Paladin heals for most part nuke when over 50% power. MT calls for debuffs Pal hits sigil and everyone debuffs does as much damage as possible if someone does get agro in the  group it will be the Paladin I got about 11k hps in raid so I can take a hit or 2  till MT gets agro back better greared but not MT/OT Pal would do better but key is the dps stay up and can keep hammering. Put  Amends on Assassin but since Paladin is not trying to dps they shouldnt get agro very often so Assassin can go all out. Group would get the extra mit, extra skills, healing regen, agro management from the pally. The Pally does decent healing with both KoS and EoF lines freeing up Healer to concentrate on MT or OT healing  and curing any group trauma.</P> <P>Its not what I wanted when I thought of making a pally but I would think that would make us very raid usefull as utility class. Anyone not believe this would be good build for utility tanking. You still be ok tank for most instances but if your not going to be raid tank this bring more to table then typical Pal setup for your raid group.</P>

[Rob89]

<P>There is one thing a Paladin really beats up the other 3 plate classes on bigtime.</P> <P>Resists. I can get all my resists to 10k+ if im MT with short term buffs and that isnt to shabby. A good paladin can tank just as good as a guardian can. Only problem is if the paladins hate gainer dies, then they are screwed.</P> <P>As Mt i usually have the stats:</P> <P>13 000hp, 5900 miti, 60% avidance, 8k+ on all resists, 6000 mana.</P> <P>Do a guardian have so much better stats really? I dont think so.</P> <P> </P>

[Kaleyen]

Resists aren't hard to get, playing on a blue server some people tend to over look it but on PvP every single tank in my guild has right around the same resists as I do. So saying we are the "resist tank" (which would be nice) just isn't true.  Your other tanks are picking HP/STA gear over resist gear if this is the case for you and thus have lower resists yet high HP. <div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>Paladins only get 145 more Wisdom than a Guardian.  Thats about 500 to all the resists.  Hardly anything that breaks the bank.</P> <P>W</P>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <P>If you really wanted to make yourself a utility tank there is AA options that allow for it and make you valuable to raid wiz or scout group.  In KoS go Int 4/5/8/8 Max your crit heals then take Wis tree go 4/4/8/8 give you group +32 to all offencive buffs and max hp regen.</P> <P>In EoF max  top 4 in heals/wards get last heal. Branch off grab 5pts in Armorment gives group 700extra mit increases most cloth wearers by 8-12% mit 5-9% for chain. Take Hero line take opener,debuff, extra hps then max sigil to give you 20secs to take groups agro. Spend rest in improving group proc spell % chance.</P> <P>My  ideal group setup in raid  would go Pal/Healer/Dirge/Brig/Bru/Assassin, Healer gets to concentrate on MT  and hit the group cures Paladin heals for most part nuke when over 50% power. MT calls for debuffs Pal hits sigil and everyone debuffs does as much damage as possible if someone does get agro in the  group it will be the Paladin I got about 11k hps in raid so I can take a hit or 2  till MT gets agro back better greared but not MT/OT Pal would do better but key is the dps stay up and can keep hammering. Put  Amends on Assassin but since Paladin is not trying to dps they shouldnt get agro very often so Assassin can go all out. Group would get the extra mit, extra skills, healing regen, agro management from the pally. The Pally does decent healing with both KoS and EoF lines freeing up Healer to concentrate on MT or OT healing  and curing any group trauma.</P> <P>Its not what I wanted when I thought of making a pally but I would think that would make us very raid usefull as utility class. Anyone not believe this would be good build for utility tanking. You still be ok tank for most instances but if your not going to be raid tank this bring more to table then typical Pal setup for your raid group.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree. This isn't making us more valuable in a raid. Not in terms of selecting us over another class. The people in your group setup should care less for HP regen, and + skills is overrated. I know our scouts would rather have Double Attack, power regen, or dirge hate reduction. Having the extra heals is fine, but I only really need to use them once in a great while. If we needed more than six healers for an encounter, we'd just get another healer.</P> <P>Sure, adding any of the AA's give us utility, but it doesn't make us any more desirable. If they added a heal proc chance to all healers, or added some sort of DPS increase for all scouts, then we can talk.</P> <P>I understand every guild and raid is different. Some raids lack certain aspects. Some people may not be fully fabled, or don't have every master spell, contested loot, etc.  So instances where a guild might have some players that aren't all that good, a very well played paladin can contribute much more.</P> <P> </P>

[Kaleyen]

I just want a double attack option like the other fighters get. <div></div>