Spells, Abilities, and Combat Arts

[Immuen]

<DIV> This might be a silly question but I am curious to the subject.  Isn't there a difference to CAs and spells?  After a longtime playing the paladin class and many LUs.  The CAs and spells of a paladin are mixed together and doesn't make the 2 knowledge books seem different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Relentless Conviction</DIV> <DIV>Level: 70</DIV> <DIV>Class: Paladin</DIV> <DIV>Does instant divine damage to neaby enemies surrounding the paladin. This spell has a chance to stun anyone it damages.</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=122383" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=122383</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The info listed on it describes it is a spell.  Yet it's in the Combat knowledge book.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Extinguish Will</DIV> <DIV>Level: 67</DIV> <DIV>Class: Paladin</DIV> <DIV>A melee attack that strikes with additional divine damage and stuns the target on a successful hit. This strike deals additional damage against the undead.</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=122391" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=122391</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The info list on it describes it is a melee attack/combat art.  Yet it's in the Spell knowledge book.  (amount on scroll type) refers to app/adept/master</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's even further issue, IMO, it describes it being a melee attack that has a divine damage attached to it.  Though the effects says:</DIV> <DIV>  Inflicts (amount on scroll type) divine damage</DIV> <DIV>   Applies Glorious Strike on termation. </DIV> <DIV>  Last for 2.0 secs. </DIV> <DIV>  Inflicts (amount on scroll) divine damage on target</DIV> <DIV>  Stuns Target</DIV> <DIV>  If Target is not Epic</DIV> <DIV>   Inflicts (amount on scroll) divine damage on target      </DIV> <DIV>  If target is undead</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shouldn't the first part say does (amount on scroll type) melee damage based on primary weapon?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This then leads to another issue.  All Spells and combat arts done by a paladin is divine damage.  Pre archtypes the combat abilities where straight melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wild Swing</DIV> <DIV>Level: 3</DIV> <DIV>Class: Guard/Zerk/Pal/SK/Monk/Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Inflicts (amount on scroll type) melee damage on target</DIV> <DIV>If facing target</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=349" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=349</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later on this CA became</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Righteous Condemnation</DIV> <DIV>Level: 57</DIV> <DIV>Class: Paladin</DIV> <DIV>Inflicts (amount on scroll type) divine damage on target</DIV> <DIV>Heals caster for (amount on scroll type)</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=74622" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/items/item_profile.vm?itemId=74622</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> The main focus I am getting at though:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><IMG src="http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4258/paldt2.png"></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This describes .."Paladins exel in martial combat while employing divine magic to <U>enhance</U> their abilities"....</DIV> <DIV>Not turn their abilities into divine magic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let alone. "By invoking both protective and healing magic"...  Why Paladins have so many spell attacks verses the protective magic?  Thought SKs were more battlemage using magic for offense while Paladins being protective were closer to a battlepriest?</DIV> <DIV>( Buffs, debuffs, resists, heals, etc from a priest style of magic)</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Either way fighter first and magic is secondary.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Immuen on <span class=date_text>12-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>The main focus I am getting at though: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><IMG src="http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4258/paldt2.png"></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>as i've stated before, this class description is totally wrong and needs to be changed... especially the last paragraph, its very misleading to a newcomer of the game..</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>the only thing the developers have done is nerf this class to the point of it being an assist only class and 4th of 5th rate tank, other tanks can do the job alot more efficiently, and effectivly... but as an assist paladins are unequaled imho...</SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Rast]

Actually Chopstix, we survive because group won't allow us to get tank.  It is how the divine magic works.  We tank we die, so divinity steps in and keeps us from doing that  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ChopStix]

<DIV>the Lord works in mysterious ways.. i agree 100%</DIV><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>12-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <FONT color=#ffff66><EM><STRONG>The main focus I am getting at though:</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>And here I thought this was going to be more constructive after all of that.</P> <P>Do we not have Pledge that offers our Mit? Do we not have healing spells? <FONT color=#ffff33>By invoking both protective and healing magic.</FONT></P> <P>Did we suddenly lose our group and self only divine proc? .."<FONT color=#ffff33>Paladins exel in martial combat while employing divine magic to <U>enhance</U> their abilities"....<BR></FONT></P> <P>The game has changed many times since the first description was written. It's still fairly accurate after all of that. You can argue that each of those points is correct. I'll be the first to say that we need a little more help with raid tanking, but I'm not going to sit here and say that we aren't what SOE claims we are. I'm also not going to let them take away all my spell attacks so I can have more protective spells.</P> <P>For the vast majority of players out there, this description is fine. For the very small percentage of pally's that are raiders, and the even smaller number of those who actually tank, this description might be a little misleading, but not completely false. It's a stretch, I'll agree. </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Mgunner on <span class=date_text>12-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 PM</span>

[Faelgalad]

<P> <FONT color=#3399ff>Mgunner </FONT></P> <P>And here I thought this was going to be more constructive after all of that. (1)</P> <P>Do we not have Pledge that offers our Mit? Do we not have healing spells? <FONT color=#ffff33>By invoking both protective and healing magic.  (2)</FONT></P> <P>Did we suddenly lose our group and self only divine proc? .."<FONT color=#ffff33>Paladins exel in martial combat while employing divine magic to <U>enhance</U> their abilities".... (3)<BR></FONT></P> <P>The game has changed many times since the first description was written. It's still fairly accurate after all of that. You can argue that each of those points is correct. I'll be the first to say that we need a little more help with raid tanking, but I'm not going to sit here and say that we aren't what SOE claims we are. I'm also not going to let them take away all my spell attacks so I can have more protective spells. (4)</P> <P>For the vast majority of players out there, this description is fine. For the very small percentage of pally's that are raiders, and the even smaller number of those who actually tank, this description might be a little misleading, but not completely false. It's a stretch, I'll agree. (5)  </P> <P> </P> <P>1. Without any positiv development of the Paladin class, no need for constructive discussions. No one's listening, so no need.</P> <P>2. Healing is worthless. Easy mobs going without healing, healers putting out enough healing that the Paladin heals are not needed. Hard mobs interupt you, waste of combat time. </P> <P>3. Excel = Excelent, but all other tanks and close combat classes are better in Martial Combat than a Paladin. We lie between Templer and Troubadour in Damage. The damage procs are not really an damage wonder. </P> <P>4. The SOE descriptions fits to an Diablo 2 Paladin (Shocker, Hammerdim, Zealot), they are cable of fighting and survive, punishing and kill those arround. After all the changes, we are subpar Platehealers. </P> <P>5. Thanks, we are "Vollescheisse" and "einen Dreck Wert" in a Raid. That's true. No one needs the nemesis of evil in a Raid. A Teletubby is more useful in a Raid, they would  amuse the Raid, keeping mood up. </P>

[Karlen]

>>>2. Healing is worthless. Easy mobs going without healing, healers putting out enough healing that the Paladin heals are not needed. Hard mobs interupt you, waste of combat time.<<<I find healing to be very useful, but I'm usually in small groups if I group at all and find that if there is no healer in the group, I can fill in, and if there is a higher level healer, he can often focus on DPS when I handle healing particularly if only "some" healing is needed. On the issue of combat arts vs spells, I find the main differences to be that spells have range, while combat abilities don't.  Their chance of criticalling is different based on AAs and spells don't activate melee mode like CAs do (particularly useful if I am using my bow and don't want to switch to melee).<div></div>

[Immuen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mgunner wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <FONT color=#ffff66><EM><STRONG>The main focus I am getting at though:</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>And here I thought this was going to be more constructive after all of that. </P> <P>Do we not have Pledge that offers our Mit?(1) Do we not have healing spells?(2) <FONT color=#ffff33>By invoking both protective and healing magic. </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600> (1)Last time I looked no other class gave up MIT to give MIT.  (2)Unless something has changed umm ya...</FONT></P> <P>Did we suddenly lose our group and self only divine proc?(3) .."<FONT color=#ffff33>Paladins exel in martial combat while employing divine magic to <U>enhance</U> their abilities"....  (</FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>3) nope but the proc only thing I can think of off the top of my head that is a true <U>enhance:</U>  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Definition:</FONT></P><FONT color=#ff6600> </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600><SPAN class=ResultBodyBlack><B>improve: </B></SPAN><SPAN class=ResultBody>to improve or add to the strength, worth, beauty, or other desirable quality of something</SPAN><BR></FONT><BR> <P>The game has changed many times since the first description was written. It's still fairly accurate after all of that. You can argue that each of those points is correct. I'll be the first to say that we need a little more help with raid tanking, but I'm not going to sit here and say that we aren't what SOE claims we are. I'm also not going to let them take away all my spell attacks* so I can have more protective spells.</P> <P>*What I was pointing out is something I guess you fail to see.  The description of the class, the abilities, and gameplay is off.  The descriptions on every part of a paladin is off. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Paladins excel in martial combat while employing divine magic to <U>enhance</U> their abilities"....</FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>If you want to do high DPS with a Paladin it won't be through melee.  Spell attacks give the high DPS, but isn't SKs suppose to be more into spell attacks?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>By invoking both protective and healing magic.  </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>Paladins have some protective magic and healing magic.  But I bet you'll find more offensive magic the other 2 combined. Besides to use what protective magic Paladins have has some insane penalities to use them.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>For the vast majority of players out there, this description is fine. For the very small percentage of pally's that are raiders, and the even smaller number of those who actually tank, this description might be a little misleading, but not completely false. It's a stretch, I'll agree.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>What I am pointing out isn't about raiding.  Something in general that annoys me and probably annoys others.  Especially on the lore part of things.  In a way I feel like a SK from KoS, and EoF gives a little break for those who want to be a different role.  </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Mgunner on <SPAN class=date_text>12-27-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:35 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Canel]

<DIV>ok.... back to the main point of the thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm about 95-98% sure that spells are the attacks that deal our divine DD; the Will attack (forgot first word hehe :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is a mix of both I belive. If you go down the INT line for critical spell dmg, then you can tell the differances incredibly better, Will is a mix of spell and melee. As for Conviction, that is a spell, but I guess its some sort of glitch/weird thing about our spellbook.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the combination of magic and melee, well you got our spellbook, then our CA book. Im not fully sure on this theory, but solo, against a long-timed fight, we can easily live longer than a warrior or a zerker. A) we have heals (as cruddy as they are), wards, and our emergancies are a 1k heal at a 5min, and a 4k at 10. Not to say that warriors cant outdo our dmg (in some cases, in mine usually no, but making a generalization just in case) but they cant go around healing themselves, and even with a heal potion, the timers are on 2 mins, and with the Mit revamp, mit is next to worthless nowadays, unless its sky high, aka raid buffed</DIV>

[Faelgalad]

<P>@ªZotar99</P> <P>So being an reserve healer makes your day? Is that what you think of with the word "Paladin"?</P> <P>In low intensity situations nearly everything is usefull, even the bards hit point buff or a necro keeps you alive. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>@Canel</P> <P>Compared that the warrior/zerker mitigates more damage and dealsmore damage, he needs no heals. He just get the XP a few moments earlier than we. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Karlen]

>>>So being an reserve healer makes your day? Is that what you think of with the word "Paladin"?<<<What makes my day is that I have a variety of skills so that I can tank, heal, support, etc. as the situation requires and depending on the makeup of my group.Sometimes I am a tank, sometimes I am a healer, sometimes I just stand back and shoot my bow.   Sometimes I am more than one thing at once.  Versatility is good.Yes, a full group with a tank, a healer or two and lots of dps is going to be optimal, but that's not always (not even usually) the group makeup that I have to work with.<div></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">I'm about 95-98% sure that spells are the attacks that deal our divine DD; the Will attack (forgot first word hehe :smileyvery-happy<img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> is a mix of both I belive. <hr size="2" width="100%">Our CAs that do divine damage do not benefit from spell crit, but they do benefit from melee crit.  If it can be interrupted, it is a spell and gets spell crit- Refusal, Conviction, Consecrate, etc....also our procs work as spells. The vast majority of our divine attacks are not spells and do not benefit from spell crit, including Brimstone and our AOE/ heal.  I tested this ad nauseum during KoS.  To further complicate matters, Symmetry, Bolt, etc... things that boost spell damage DO affect all of our divine attacks whether they are spells or CAs.   Can't complain about that <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. INT line is overrated for anyone who wants to tank seriously.  The heal crits are the only thing I miss. <div></div>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>INT line is overrated for anyone who wants to tank seriously.  The heal crits are the only thing I miss.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well unless you are in a guild that uses a Pally as a MT then no, the INT line is possibly one of the best lines we have to deal DPS. We have the potential to be on the tops of the parse charts. Mix the INT line, Consecrate, Smite Evil and Reletnless Conviction, that is a guarenteee that you will parse high. </P> <P>If your guild is using a Pally as an MT, the INT line is still possbily incredible. Your spells (AoEs) will most always crit, and while taunts are large hate gainers, damage also brings hate. The only things that are appealing about the STA line are the melee crits, the health+ and the STA boost. The STR line is attack speed and hate gain. THere are no reasons really, to max out any of the lines. </P> <P>Divine Aura has been bugged since who knows when, and unless they did a ninja fix, it sucks anyway. 30 hits over 10 seconds, with a recast of 15 min, and if the mob hits for over 1/2 your total HP, then its worthless. The reward for STR is 10% casting /recovery speed, which is mostly worthless. </P> <P>I havnt even gone for hte heal crits, healing is for the healers. We already have a 900+ heal at a 5 sec recast (yes we SOMETIMES get disruppted) and a 1300 ward at  15 sec. Plus, a mini-emergancy heal for 2.5k at 5 min, and a emergancy heal at 4k at 15min. </P> <P>Now unless you are a utility Pally, the INT line is probably the best line you can go for concerning raiding</P>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote: <P>@Canel</P> <P>Compared that the warrior/zerker mitigates more damage and dealsmore damage, he needs no heals. He just get the XP a few moments earlier than we. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, it depends on the warrior. Someone who went for the DPS line is gonna do more dmg yes, but with EoF, mitagation is near to worthless to try to increase, you might as well go for health and power over it. The mobs are hitting harder cause the MIT is now lowered. Warriors have to take down their enemy before their HP goes down, thus solo, they cant sustain long fights. Pallys can due to warding and healing.

[Faelgalad]

<P>But in my eyes, we are only an second rate Soloclass.</P> <P>In Solo, our Survivability is okay, not good, but okay. </P> <P>The number of area spells is really helpful. </P> <P>The damage is far to low to be a good solo class. </P> <P>In this Segment, Druids, Bruiser/Monks and Necro/Conjurer rules. </P> <P>They kill quiet faster in comparision to us. </P> <P> </P> <P>@Zotar99</P> <P>This "versatility" is what slows us. We don't bring into a group something. In 3-Player Groups this maybe useful. But what is the reward of being 3 players? Is there something to gain? Where is the magic, the fun, the moment when people see a Paladin comes. We need some more signature, some more "magical", something that is typical "Paladin" and increasing Healing is not the right thing. Crushing Evil is a Paladin trademark, not healing. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Lynassihr on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[Rast]

<P>Actually, being a holy stone wall is the Paladin trademark (ie wards).</P> <P>To me, the effective differences between the pally and the guard should be minimal, how those differences are obtained should be the point at hand.</P> <UL> <LI>A paladin should be a stalwart of defense, using a solid mixture of divine buffs and holy wards.</LI> <LI>A guardian should be a stalwart of defense, using raw mitigation and defense to protect him from the rigors of existance.</LI></UL> <P>The key above is both should be a stalwart of defense and Paladins (and I'm not saying this because I play one) should be the #2 tank in the game as we, by our nature, give up dps for defense.  Under NO circumstances should a bezerker be better at defense and mitigation than a paladin, by their very nature, they should be battle crazed maniacs, not defensive minded tanks.  BTW, it still bugs me that zerkers can wear plat...</P> <P>The only difference between a guardian and a pally should be how they accomplish that goal.  A guardian should be a no nonsense master of mechanical defense.  Higher mit armors, better weapon defenses (parry) and a keen mind for battle strategy as it were.  A paladin should have slightly lower natural mitigation (not able to wear the 'heaviest' armors) but make up with that with their ability to tap the divine to augment their defensive capabilities.  But in the end, they should both be effective juggernaughts just come about in different directions.</P>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>Actually, being a holy stone wall is the Paladin trademark (ie wards).</P> <P>To me, the effective differences between the pally and the guard should be minimal, how those differences are obtained should be the point at hand.</P> <UL> <LI>A paladin should be a stalwart of defense, using a solid mixture of divine buffs and holy wards.</LI> <LI>A guardian should be a stalwart of defense, using raw mitigation and defense to protect him from the rigors of existance.</LI></UL> <P>The key above is both should be a stalwart of defense and Paladins (and I'm not saying this because I play one) should be the #2 tank in the game as we, by our nature, give up dps for defense.  Under NO circumstances should a bezerker be better at defense and mitigation than a paladin, by their very nature, they should be battle crazed maniacs, not defensive minded tanks.  BTW, it still bugs me that zerkers can wear plat...</P> <P>The only difference between a guardian and a pally should be how they accomplish that goal.  A guardian should be a no nonsense master of mechanical defense.  Higher mit armors, better weapon defenses (parry) and a keen mind for battle strategy as it were.  A paladin should have slightly lower natural mitigation (not able to wear the 'heaviest' armors) but make up with that with their ability to tap the divine to augment their defensive capabilities.  But in the end, they should both be effective juggernaughts just come about in different directions.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>At the beginning of the game that was how it mostly was, if I remember right...but we were able to wear the same armor.<BR>

[Rast]

Aye, that is close to how it was in the beginning, though we were only able to wear the same armor because SoE couldn't get enough armor models in before release I think.  The original descriptions of the guardian mentioned that they would be the only class capable of wearing the Vanguard armor.

[Immuen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canel wrote:<BR> <DIV>ok.... back to the main point of the thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm about 95-98% sure that spells are the attacks that deal our divine DD; the Will attack (forgot first word hehe :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is a mix of both I belive. If you go down the INT line for critical spell dmg, then you can tell the differances incredibly better, Will is a mix of spell and melee. As for Conviction, that is a spell, but I guess its some sort of glitch/weird thing about our spellbook.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the combination of magic and melee, well you got our spellbook, then our CA book. Im not fully sure on this theory, but solo, against a long-timed fight, we can easily live longer than a warrior or a zerker. A) we have heals (as cruddy as they are), wards, and our emergancies are a 1k heal at a 5min, and a 4k at 10. Not to say that warriors cant outdo our dmg (in some cases, in mine usually no, but making a generalization just in case) but they cant go around healing themselves, and even with a heal potion, the timers are on 2 mins, and with the Mit revamp, mit is next to worthless nowadays, unless its sky high, aka raid buffed</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>  The will attack describes it being a mixture of both but in reality it isn't.  The effect clearly states melee yet all damage is divine.  Let alone melee is combat art not a spell.