Another patch, another bug?

[Cyrdemac]

<DIV>Just yesterday as I went to Tarinaxx, I discovered something strange with my Pledge of Armament and my Group-Armament buff from the support AA-line. As the second one is always running, this time I became member of the OT group and pldged my Tank. But I couldnt activate it, it showed me that it was already running. Strange enough, so I deactivated the Pldege to recast it, and suddenly I noticed that pledge and group armament were on the same reuse, so deactivating the (not running) pledge deactivated my running group armament. After casting pledge, my group armament was also "used" but not buffed, so they cannot be cast both. And to be more mysterious..the new description on the group armament said it would reduce my penalties from my pledge line..yes..it did..it cancelled it totally, the spell itself, great improvement <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Wulfborne]

Originally the AA for that only reduced penalties for using Armament. Enough paladins complained during Beta that they changed it to a group armament instead. I have heard that you can't use both at the same time (Kinda a one or the other choice) so as not to give paladins an additional ability before the endline, when everyone else just has existing abilities augmented. Maybe you are seeing some of these residual choices? I haven't messed with it to see. It might just be intended with a messed up description.~Hawke<div></div>

[Cyrdemac]

I got the key last week of beta, so didnt knew it was originally a different spell. If its like you said, this spell is getting worse now and nerfed. If it were not for the shorter rezz and the single target cure, I would drop that line entirely. Group Mitigation or single Pledge now is it. Kinda sad they forgot to tell us that they are going to patch it down that way.

[Cyrdemac]

<DIV>Still appreciate an answer from the Devs about this strange change. (They must be back from holidays by now)</DIV>

[Karlen]

>>>Strange enough, so I deactivated the Pldege to recast it, and suddenly I noticed that pledge and group armament were on the same reuse, so deactivating the (not running) pledge deactivated my running group armament.<<<It seems you can use Pledge or GA, but not both at the same time.  This makes sense, because if you could stack them, the mitigation boost could be almost overpowering.  As it stands now, GA is a very significant mitigation boost to most classes.<div></div>

[PattontheGen]

I must agree....they are both great spells. The AA line group buff is only good if you put enough AA points into it IMO...once you get enough AA into it, then it is a big MIT boost to the non-fighters in your group. This buff is really only good in non-raid groups. Seeing how I am almost always in the MT group on a raid because of my single target mit buff, and ward ability + off healing the group buff only helps when I am in a non-raid group...but either way they are both very nice spells to have and make us worth a bit more.

[Karlen]

>>>Once you get enough AA into it, then it is a big MIT boost to the non-fighters in your group.<<<I put the maximum AAs into it and get +630 mitigation at level 63.   This appears to be a non-trivial boost for mages in particular. <div></div>

[PattontheGen]

At lvl 70 with 3 points in it so far I have 420 mit boost to non-fighters ......with this + amends on a nuke class well lets just say you are there new best friend

[Karlen]

<div><blockquote><hr>PattontheGen wrote:<div></div>At lvl 70 with 3 points in it so far I have 420 mit boost to non-fighters ......with this + amends on a nuke class well lets just say you are there new best friend<hr></blockquote>It would be +700 with the full 5 points in it, I believe.  This doesn't sound like a lot to a plate-wearer, but it is a lot to someone in cloth.</div>

[Wulfborne]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zotar99 wrote:<div>It would be +700 with the full 5 points in it, I believe.  <u><i>This doesn't sound like a lot to a plate-wearer</i></u>, but it is a lot to someone in cloth.</div><hr></blockquote>Are you kidding? I'd LOVE to be able to mit myself for 700 points. Sounds like plenty big mit to me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Hawke</div>

[PattontheGen]

<P>WoW 700+..that will be a nice group buff to offer up....for non-raid events that is. Seeing how our Pledge of Armament only gives a mit increase of @ 380 (can't remember the exact number) but at the same time we have to give up a lot of mit. </P> <P> </P> <P>Would be nice if our Pledge of Armament would give that much mit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Wulfborne]

I coulda sworn pledge at Master I gives 500-ish mit...hence why we can't use both at once... 1200 mit to a scout to tank with? hahaha!~Hawke<div></div>

[Karlen]

>>>Are you kidding? I'd LOVE to be able to mit myself for 700 points.<<<Unfortunately only works on non-fighters.  I mentored to 25 the other day and the boost to the warden in the group (+250 since it scaled down) pushed his mitigation higher than mine.<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

Yeah, I know it only works for non-fighters. That comment was to the "700 doesn't seem like much to plate wearers" statement. 700 would be a nice boost, imo.~Hawke<div></div>

[Karlen]

>>>Yeah, I know it only works for non-fighters. That comment was to the "700 doesn't seem like much to plate wearers" statement. 700 would be a nice boost, imo.<<<Agreed.  But while +700 would be  "nice boost" to plate wearers, it can be a 50% or more increase to cloth wearers, especially those that are not raid-equipped.On the other hand, the +700 to plate wearers would be immediately useful, since the plate wearers should be taking all the hits.  The +700 to cloth wearers should not, in theory, be necessary since they won't be hit in the normal course of things.In my case, though, I find it allows the cloth wearers to do the tanking when they are significantly higher level tha me.<div></div>

[PattontheGen]

<DIV><<<<<I coulda sworn pledge at Master I gives 500-ish mit...hence why we can't use both at once... 1200 mit to a scout to tank with? hahaha!>>>>></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not mine...as a adept 3 I think it is something like 382 or something right around there...not sure about the master 1 <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TheBu]

<DIV>the master pledge of armament gives 425 mit  -531mit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wulfborne]

There ya go. That's why I had 500 in my head. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Hawke<div></div>

[Cyrdemac]

<DIV>Well, thats exactly the reason why I want an answer from the DEVs, if this non-parallel-buffing is intended or not, the description is irritating, and the sudden change wasnt mentioned anywhere. After this change I had to respec the now completly fracked support-line to get something less frustrating.</DIV> <DIV>Yes, Group Armament boosts 700 mitigation to all nonfighters in a group (on Adept I Level - 5 Points spend), but as mentioned, ist useless for raid situation as it doesnt help much those classes that lack mitigation anyway. </DIV> <DIV>So I would really appreciate some official comment on this AA-spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wulfborne]

I don't know why people continue to post on open-discussion forums and only want responses from Devs. <span>:smileysad:</span>If you have an issue where only a Dev's answer is acceptable, you'd probably do better using PMs or email. What do we have? 2 or 3 dev responses on the paladin boards? I'd say if a dev response here is all you'll be happy with, your chances are low.Good luck though.~Hawke<div></div>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>First of all, I still think this ability is a complete waste. The only way people should pick this up is to get the cure ability at the end of the tree, and even then, the minimum number of points you can spare. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this time, I've still yet to see a practical use for this. No raid leader putting groups together is factoring in this useless ability.  They need to change this all together to include fighters. But for SOE to change this and not even put in any notes.......That's just a slap in the face</DIV>

[Karlen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mgunner wrote:<div>First of all, I still think this ability is a complete waste. The only way people should pick this up is to get the cure ability at the end of the tree, and even then, the minimum number of points you can spare. </div> <div> </div> <div>At this time, <font color="#ffff00">I've still yet to see a practical use for this. No raid leader putting groups together is factoring in this useless ability.</font>  They need to change this all together to include fighters. But for SOE to change this and not even put in any notes.......That's just a slap in the face</div><hr></blockquote>Perhaps it is not intended for raid use.  There are other aspects to the game besides raiding.  Personally, it is just about my favourite AA, next to the 5 sec reduction on the recast timer of my ward.  But then, I don't raid at all.  In fact, I'm rarely in a group with 4 or more people.So just because you don't see a use for it, doesn't mean there isn't one.</div>

[Karlen]

Just to be clear, since this thread is about how this AA is bugged, do people think "working as intended" would have pledge stack with this new spell?<div></div>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zotar99 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mgunner wrote:<BR> <DIV>First of all, I still think this ability is a complete waste. The only way people should pick this up is to get the cure ability at the end of the tree, and even then, the minimum number of points you can spare. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this time, <FONT color=#ffff00>I've still yet to see a practical use for this. No raid leader putting groups together is factoring in this useless ability.</FONT>  They need to change this all together to include fighters. But for SOE to change this and not even put in any notes.......That's just a slap in the face</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps it is not intended for raid use.  There are other aspects to the game besides raiding.  Personally, it is just about my favourite AA, next to the 5 sec reduction on the recast timer of my ward.  But then, I don't raid at all.  In fact, I'm rarely in a group with 4 or more people.<BR><BR>So just because you don't see a use for it, doesn't mean there isn't one.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I see even less uses for grouping.  Unless there is an AE that is physical based, it's useless. Doesn't help prevent a 4k poison AE. Holding agro in a group is even easier than in a raid, which in my opinion makes this even less useful.

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zotar99 wrote:<BR>Just to be clear, since this thread is about how this AA is bugged, do people think "working as intended" would have pledge stack with this new spell?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, this is probably working as intended now.

[Karlen]

<div></div>>>>I see even less uses for grouping.  Unless there is an AE that is physical based, it's useless. Doesn't help prevent a 4k poison AE. Holding agro in a group is even easier than in a raid, which in my opinion makes this even less useful.<<<Perhaps if you limit your vision of "group" to tank-healer-dps-dps-dps-dps using optimal xp generation techniques.  But I rarely am in such a group.Consider some of the following groups that I have been in recently:70 wizard/63 paladin/65 warden --> Loping Plains -- in this case I am much lower than the others and it is easier to let the wiz pull the mobs and for me to ward him.  21 troub/21 paladin (mentor)/21 wizard (mentor)/21 warden (mentor) --> although closer to a normal group, in this case we were in stormhold (somewhere I don't know well) and the warden and wizard were doing most of the pulling as they knew what was needed62 paladin/70 wizard/70 conjurer/61 warden --> palace of the awakened in BM.   The wizard and conjurer shared the tanking duties.As well, it is useful if I am grouping with someone much lower than me for purposes of helping them with quests.  Rather than just killing everything myself, I can offer support to them.Often I am the only "healer" in the group and will focus on that, letting a conjurer or wizard handle the main pulling/tanking.Often I do tank, but without a healer in the group, having this AA ensures that if someone else does get aggro, they won't die before I can do something about it.EDIT: what it does is add flexibility so that you don't always have to operate in the normal tank-healer-dps optimal format and can adjust playstyles to what people want to do.  If the warden likes to pull the mobs, I don't see any reason to tell him not to if we can do it without dying.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Zotar99 on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:18 AM</span>

[Mgunner]

<P>Z,  It's not my intention to rain on your parade. Obviously you've shown some odd situations where it might be useful, although, not required. But you've proved me wrong.  Once your level 70 you'll find it less useful. But even in the situations you listed, there are other ways.</P> <P>I'm all for flexiblitiy in things, but when it comes to how our spells and CA's work, I would rather have them useful in normal environments.</P>

[Karlen]

One reason that I like this AA is that, since I almost never group with another fighter, I had almost never used the pledge line, not wanting to take the mitigation hit.   This AA offers bonus mitigation to everyone else in the group with no penalty to me.  At most it is neutral, not something to complain about. <div></div>

[Karlen]

>>>Z,  It's not my intention to rain on your parade. Obviously you've shown some odd situations where it might be useful, although, not required. But you've proved me wrong.  Once your level 70 you'll find it less useful. But even in the situations you listed, there are other ways.<<<I can see now that it might be less than useful in raid situations.  To me, it hadn't occured to me that people wouldn't think that this was an excellent AA since I have found it more useful than most of the others.   But everyone has their own way of playing and I am not going to be the one to tell someone else that their way of playing is wrong (as long they aren't in my group, in which case all bets are off <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>