Paladin Fix In One Sentence

[Caetrel]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>The Number One issue we have is survivability as tanks/ MTs.  Despite divisive views on aggro, dps, utility, the one stand-out issue that we all agree on is that we are weak in survivability.   This makes us a last resort tank, whether we are capable of it or not.  Healers work harder, our reputation is often poor.   Paladins are not tanking anything difficult in the raiding community (KoS, easier EoF raids= not difficult).We do not have much in the way of hard facts or data to illustrate how exactly we are weaker tanks.  Wyrd's Vildnucae post is a step in the right direction and we need more comparisons along those lines.   Until we have alot of hard data, all we can link our weakness as MTs to is experience.  Now, this may lead to a slippery slope of bias as many of us may disagree on what exactly ails us.  However, some of us who post here have formidable experience as tanks, raiders, raid leaders, etc...   So I am going to take a leap of faith here and try to nail this down to one sentence that decribes what our number one problem is:<i><b>We get hit much more often than guardians and the healing and utility at our disposal  is not enough to compensate for the difference.</b></i>Now, this claim attributes our weakness to getting hit.  I stand firm by this because the value of temp mit buffs is greatly diminished since EoF, as is the warrior AA line that gives 300+ mitigation.   If Guardians have even 5% more mitigation than us, permanently, which they do not even come close to having, then that would be only a 5% difference.  What we see is a difference in damage receieved much higher than that, with guardians having only marginally more mitigation.  We are now better than pre-EoFat avoiding hits with the Hero AA line and Marr blessings/miracles, but we still get hit too much and cannot comensate.   The KoS Divine Aura AA is weak.  Further, our strength as resist tanks is irrelevant as any tank can achieve decent resists.  Resist tanks do not exist in this game.   We simply do not have tools to stop the nasty hits like others can do.  So here is the fix for our class in one sentence:<b><i>We need tools to avoid more hits or our healing and utility needs to be able to compensate better than it currently does.</i></b>IMO it is of paramount importance that we as a community can agree what is needed to bring our class into balance.   I think this hits it, based on my experience and based on what I have heard and read from others. <i></i><div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class="date_text">12-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:09 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:18 AM</span>

[Rast]

<P>I believe Wyrd exerience shows it best.</P> <P>We have the tools at our disposal, but they simply do not scale well compared to other tank classes.  They are well balanced in group play, but simply do not work well moving into the epic content as many of our abilities are fixed amounts of increase that does not corelate well to the increasing damage potential of the harder hitting epic mobs.</P>

[Anariale]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <p>I believe Wyrd exerience shows it best.</p> <p>We have the tools at our disposal, but they simply do not scale well compared to other tank classes.  They are well balanced in group play, but simply do not work well moving into the epic content as many of our abilities are fixed amounts of increase that does not corelate well to the increasing damage potential of the harder hitting epic mobs.</p><hr></blockquote>Yes</div>

[Deevaun]

<P>I have recently started a Guardian, he is now level 59.  I have access to a level 70 Guardian for MT while I build my Guaridan up.  My Paladin is level 70, and has been for some time now with at least t7 fabled on every armor piece and nice mit jewelry.  Still have to work on adornments but that will come in time.</P> <P>What I have noticed between the two, besides that Guardians can have bonus to mit, 2 short duration buffs, but they have a LOT of debuffs vs offensive skills at their disposal.</P> <P><BR>They have a DPS reduction, a slashing, crushing, piercing  debuff, they can reduce the effectiveness of mobs abilty to cast, they have a AE DPS / attack speed reduction for a short period of time.  </P> <P>IF you take all of these debuffs and add them together with their temp mit buffs, then you will find that yes, they do get hit for less.  Cause whatever mob they are tanking, they will always have some kind of debuffs going on it as they are in control.</P> <P>Say the Guardian is tanking a name while everyone is assisting someone to take out adds if this is how you are doing a encounter.  Well the guardian can keep the named fairly debuffed while increasing mit meaning less dmg taken,  A paladin cannot debuff worth [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>Oh, one more thing guards can do, obliterate, debuffs the mobs avoidance, parry, defense, is not parry built into the riposte ability?  Plus there is a specific AA line that guards have to enhance their abilities to debuff, and their debuffs will last longer too.  My level 59 Guard has 61 AAs, the 70 Guard I tank with does not have EOF, my Guard can already debuff DPS better with a lesser tier debuff then the 70 Guard at adept 1 vs adept 3</P> <P>IMO the paladin IS going to be getting hit harder, the paladin makes up for this with heals/wards.  But when you compare a raid where you have a guardian and a paladin together, yes the raid will find more success because with the paladin he can also help heal the guard while he is debuffing mob etc.  The paladin acts as another healer.  </P> <P>Did a crab raid the other night and had 3 healers, templar, defiler, and fury.  Berzerker tanked.  I helped heal in that fight by over 100k hp i was right on the 3rd healers [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for heals, probably only reason the healer passed me was cause I started slacking at end and was doing other things.  </P> <P>However, if a Guardian or Zerker is not at the raid, you have the paladin tank, and in the paladins place for healing say you have another paladin or another healer, perhaps then you will come across similar success.  </P> <P>My point if not well written is this, When a raid has a Guard and Pal, it is wiser to have Guard tank since the paladin acts as another healer, unless, you have the Guardian sticking on the same mob the paladin is on to offer same debuffs that the paladin does not have.  Then perhaps you will see a difference in how hard the mob is hitting the paladin.</P> <P> </P> <P>I know they raised caps and stuff, does anyone know if there is a debuff cap?  I know some people tell me that it shouldn't matter but when I have played t he guard, I think the debuffs are very vital to success.  Getting them off as soon as possible and using the temp mit buffs at crucial times is strategic to success similar to the paladin knowi ng when to use their heals / wards.  But if the cap has been raised I can see where having a guard MT is probably a lot easier cause then the whole raid can focus on killing the adds or what not.</P> <P>Now it really depends on the group of folks you raid with, do they want a challenge, or do they want an easy victory with phat loot?  Paladins CAN tank successfully, but unless the raid has taken into consideration that by having a paladin tank, what that means by filling the raid with classes, then it can easily appear that it is easier to tank as a guard, but appearances can be deceiving if people aren't looking at the mechanics behind whats happening and why the mob is hitting like it is.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wulfborne]

/signing on in agreement, though with the caveat of RAID tanking... I have no problems at all with our survivability in groups or solo.New tools to increase raid tank survivability, though nice, are not necessary. Some tweaking of current abilities is all that it'd take.~Hawke<div></div>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Someone in anouther thread put forward the idea of our ward being %based of hps I really like this idea. At 20%  at say Master 1 it would make  a world of diff to us 7k hps solo would give you 1400hp ward. Group at 9k its 1800hp ward in raid at 12k hps it 2400hp ward that would almost double our current ward. Would keep us balanced for solo,group,and raid situations. If your read the Pal vs Gaurdians thread going right now this would make a diff for us vs the named epic mobs and really thats only place where I see us being disadvantaged over other tanks.</DIV>

[Immuen]

<DIV>  That idea of scaling the ward to a 20% health pool sound like a great idea.  Problem is somewhere someone is going to say it's powerful and their class needs the same to their class. IE: Guardians want their MIT buff to scale with them.</DIV>

[Immuen]

<DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deevaun wrote:<BR> <P>I have recently started a Guardian, he is now level 59.  I have access to a level 70 Guardian for MT while I build my Guaridan up.  My Paladin is level 70, and has been for some time now with at least t7 fabled on every armor piece and nice mit jewelry.  Still have to work on adornments but that will come in time.</P> <P>What I have noticed between the two, besides that Guardians can have bonus to mit, 2 short duration buffs, but they have a LOT of debuffs vs offensive skills at their disposal.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>As Paladins I see our single target heal and ward being the rivals to the temp MIT buffs.  Problem with them is they interrupt too much and take too much time to cast while tanking EPIC content.  Change to this issue would make the difference between the classes that seperates us.</FONT></P> <P><BR>They have a DPS reduction, a slashing, crushing, piercing  debuff, they can reduce the effectiveness of mobs abilty to cast, they have a AE DPS / attack speed reduction for a short period of time. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Paladins get 1 debuff and it's for divine resist.  Nothing more and some kind of debuff added would help close that gap for us.</FONT></P> <P>IF you take all of these debuffs and add them together with their temp mit buffs, then you will find that yes, they do get hit for less.  Cause whatever mob they are tanking, they will always have some kind of debuffs going on it as they are in control.</P> <P>Say the Guardian is tanking a name while everyone is assisting someone to take out adds if this is how you are doing a encounter.  Well the guardian can keep the named fairly debuffed while increasing mit meaning less dmg taken,  A paladin cannot debuff worth [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>Oh, one more thing guards can do, obliterate, debuffs the mobs avoidance, parry, defense, is not parry built into the riposte ability? </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Riposte</FONT></P> <P></P><FONT color=#ff6600>Definition:</FONT><FONT color=#ff6600> </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600><SPAN class=ResultBodyBlack>1. <B>smart reaction: </B></SPAN><SPAN class=ResultBody>a quick or witty reaction to something, usually spoken</SPAN><BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff6600><SPAN class=ResultBodyBlack>2. <B>quick fencing thrust: </B></SPAN><SPAN class=ResultBody>in fencing, a quick deft thrust made after parrying the lunge of an opponent</SPAN><BR></FONT> <P>Plus there is a specific AA line that guards have to enhance their abilities to debuff, and their debuffs will last longer too.  My level 59 Guard has 61 AAs, the 70 Guard I tank with does not have EOF, my Guard can already debuff DPS better with a lesser tier debuff then the 70 Guard at adept 1 vs adept 3</P> <P>IMO the paladin IS going to be getting hit harder, the paladin makes up for this with heals/wards.  But when you compare a raid where you have a guardian and a paladin together, yes the raid will find more success because with the paladin he can also help heal the guard while he is debuffing mob etc.  The paladin acts as another healer. </P> <P>Did a crab raid the other night and had 3 healers, templar, defiler, and fury.  Berzerker tanked.  I helped heal in that fight by over 100k hp i was right on the 3rd healers [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for heals, probably only reason the healer passed me was cause I started slacking at end and was doing other things. </P> <P>However, if a Guardian or Zerker is not at the raid, you have the paladin tank, and in the paladins place for healing say you have another paladin or another healer, perhaps then you will come across similar success. </P> <P>My point if not well written is this, When a raid has a Guard and Pal, it is wiser to have Guard tank since the paladin acts as another healer, unless, you have the Guardian sticking on the same mob the paladin is on to offer same debuffs that the paladin does not have.  Then perhaps you will see a difference in how hard the mob is hitting the paladin.</P> <P> </P> <P>I know they raised caps and stuff, does anyone know if there is a debuff cap?  I know some people tell me that it shouldn't matter but when I have played t he guard, I think the debuffs are very vital to success.  Getting them off as soon as possible and using the temp mit buffs at crucial times is strategic to success similar to the paladin knowi ng when to use their heals / wards.  But if the cap has been raised I can see where having a guard MT is probably a lot easier cause then the whole raid can focus on killing the adds or what not.</P> <P>Now it really depends on the group of folks you raid with, do they want a challenge, or do they want an easy victory with phat loot?  Paladins CAN tank successfully, but unless the raid has taken into consideration that by having a paladin tank, what that means by filling the raid with classes, then it can easily appear that it is easier to tank as a guard, but appearances can be deceiving if people aren't looking at the mechanics behind whats happening and why the mob is hitting like it is.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>where paladins lose out, is defense/avoidance compared to the guardian and beserker, monk and bruiser and also straight up dps, compared to every fighter class also .... post eof ,paladins are either  4th or 5th rate tanks now.. i've never thought this to be correct either, but they/soe/developers dont seem to care... i think they see the paladin as support class only, but they dont change the paladin intro to correct thier doings ,or better yet, thier undoings..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>especially post eof and the shadow knights getting the revamp, its ticked me off to the point ,all i do with my paladin is craft.. eventually ,if nothing is done, he'll go on the exchange...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they need to up the paladins dps, and defense/avoidance..  <---------my one sentence!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont think the developers test this class at all actually.. and they definetly dont test it against other tank class's</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all i can say is, you guys have alot more patience than i do...</DIV>

[Rocksthemic]

If paladins got a % based ward, I would have no problem with guardians getting a % based mit buff. It should probably be that way anyway. Perhaps like a 3 or 4% boost. Paladins need parry in their defensive stance, and some form of debuff to help us out in raids other than divine debuff. Either that or make our shield bash able to stun epics or something. I know this is a different game, but paladins were the stun masters in eq1, and timing stuns and interrupts has long been a solid raid tactic. <div></div>

[Rast]

Actually, do not Guards already get something that scales up (Tower or Stone?) that will absorb 3 hits period or something like that?

[Anariale]

<DIV>Guardians dont need anything more, they are a solid class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isnt a quid-pro-quo argument... Paladins are subpar *RAID* tank.  In order to balance them, you cant make the other tanks stronger at the same time.  Its a flawed argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, Guardians already scale well:</DIV> <DIV>-- Their temp Mit buffs are MORE effective in epic encounters than in group encounters.  Its the same Mitigation increase in either case, but because of the Mitigation curve and how Epics affect Mitigation, you get more bang for the buck from the buff against epics (yes, you still get hit for more damage though).</DIV> <DIV>-- Their Debuffs are just as effective.  20% DPS is 20% DPS.  That scales quite well against an epic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are rock solid.  They dont need anything more to make them tank "on par".  Paladins are NOT rock solid in *RAID* situations.  They need something if SOE expects them to be on par... the problem is, I dont think SOE wants Paladins on par as a *RAID* tank.  I think SOE is happy having the Paladin be an off-tank who is responsible for interceding and healing to take damage off the MT.</DIV>

[Deevaun]

<DIV>Agree, Guardians already are rock solid, Paladins need something to make them a bit more solid.  Pals do enough dps as is, I know I can do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ton especially going down wraith line.  But paladins do need something else, would be kinda cool if our ward was more effective on us, and slighly less when cast on someone else ; )  Or maybe any beneficial heals we cast on ourselves got some enhancement from our deity causing it to heal more compared to healing others....just an idea</DIV>

[Deevaun]

<P>Oh, and to add comments to Immuen, I already knew we have a divine debuff, but I'm talking about offensive debuffs to the mobs to have them hit us not so hard.  </P> <P>Also, I don't get interrupted much, unless I have a ton of mobs beating on me and then it would have to be one of my longer heals, group heal or maybe reverent sacrament, everything else I really don't have issues casting.  </P> <P> </P>

[Rast]

<P>I have moderate issues with interupts when I'm the center of a large group of mobs in a group situation.  Against 2/3 mobs, not so bad and rarely at all against single mobs.  But then, I'm going down the STR line to combat that issue, so I don't think it is as important a concern as the scaling issues.</P> <P>Also, a point of note, mitigation is scaled already, the larger the hit the more the mitigation will save already.  A 1% difference in a group enviroment isn't that much.  A 1k point hit would be a difference of 10 points of damage or so, but a 10k hit, that differene is upto about 100.  Same ability, different results.</P> <P>The only problem I see with the scaling ward is balance issues.  How much is too much and how do you scale it back to previous versions of the ward?  It is all fine and dandy to say that the lvl 66 ward at M1 would give 20%, but what about the other M1 versions of the spell?  Should a previous M1 version be equalivent to the AppIV or the Adp I or III?  It could be that reverse scalling that ability may be a nightmare unless it becomes less and less effective as you level or something (maybe cuts in half when it greys out) but that may be more than can be done with the skills.</P> <P>I do not have the lvl 66 ward, can anyone give me any ideas how much it wards for at the different levels?</P> <P>But as I put in the other post, I think the pally's do need something that would scale much better to level the playing field some as a tank.  I rolled the pally to be a main tank and I am not interested in being an off tank or a healer.  Spot fill in that, yes, but that shouldn't NOT be my main role in a group.  I do not want to be a guardian/zerker though and want the tools we currently have to be fixed in such a way that we become effective.  I don't even care to be the 'best', just effective.</P>

[txleathertx]

<P>My 2 copper worth....</P> <P> </P> <P>I am a Pally, I'm also the off tank in many raids...I enjoy my job, but us Pallys always have seemed to get the short end of the stick. For us to be solid raid tanks we do need more than our little divine damage debuff....but that's not the biggest of our short comings...the largest of our short coming as raid tanks is our avoidance and our lack of temp mit buffs. I am not sure that a scaled ward would even help us in this situation...the ward is nice, but when you're getting pounded for 5k per hit a 4k ward isn't nothing as compared to Tower of Stone that a guardian has...being able to absorb 3 attacks is huge...in those 3 attacks your healers can get ya back up and ready for more and let's not forget Command, this increases defense versus slashing, piercing, crushing for guardian and group. Our heals are nice to have in a group setting but they do not have the ability to change the tide in a raid if a Pally is MT....too many interupts. The debuffs shouldn't be that big of a deal....there are other classes with HUGE debuffs that could help us out just as well...hell, a hex doll has a 14% DPS reduction on it...Mystics have a DPS debuff. You can't sum up what a pally needs in one sentence....it's impossible to do. Generating hate is another problem us Pallys have...we can taunt to our hearts delight, but Reinforcement has us beat without question. There's ways to get the hate stacked on a Pally, and I have found that having a Monk/Bruiser in my group for amends is a huge help....more so than any other class. Will SoE ever fix us Pallys up for solid raid tanks...probably not...too many other folks would gripe about some class getting enhancements while another was getting nerfed. </P> <P>My short list of what Pallys need for MT position---</P> <P>1. More temp. mit buffs</P> <P>2. Avoidance, Avoidance, Avoidance</P> <P>3. More hate gain</P> <P>4. SoE to get off their backsides and realize that they messed up a good tank class</P>

[Anariale]

<div></div>1)  Change LoH and Sacrament to %-based.  Have better versions of the spells reduce the re-use timers, or perhaps add a side-effect like a Ward or Mit boost, or HP-cap boost)2)  Reduce casting times of all heals:   (Can change the AA's to reduce the re-use times on the heals)-- Group (Heal) - 2 seconds-- Single Target (Heal / Ward) - 1 second-- Self Only (Castigate / Sacrament) - Instant3)  Remove the penalty from Pledge and allow us to cast it on ourselves4)  Change the heal CA's (Condemnation / Circle) frome heals to wardsAt this point, take a step back and see how the changes affect players.If thats not enough, there are a ton of other options, the one Ive read on this board that I liked the most was to add a regenerating ward effect to our self-HP buff.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> 1)  Change LoH and Sacrament to %-based.  Have better versions of the spells reduce the re-use timers, or perhaps add a side-effect like a Ward or Mit boost, or HP-cap boost)<BR>2)  Reduce casting times of all heals:   (Can change the AA's to reduce the re-use times on the heals)<BR>-- Group (Heal) - 2 seconds<BR>-- Single Target (Heal / Ward) - 1 second<BR>-- Self Only (Castigate / Sacrament) - Instant<BR>3)  Remove the penalty from Pledge and allow us to cast it on ourselves<BR>4)  Change the heal CA's (Condemnation / Circle) frome heals to wards<BR><BR>At this point, take a step back and see how the changes affect players.<BR><BR>If thats not enough, there are a ton of other options, the one Ive read on this board that I liked the most was to add a regenerating ward effect to our self-HP buff.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Anariale on <SPAN class=date_text>12-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:55 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with Anariale on above, would also change the heals/wards to combat arts so movement doesnot automatically interrupt the spells.<BR>

[txleathertx]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> 1)  Change LoH and Sacrament to %-based.  Have better versions of the spells reduce the re-use timers, or perhaps add a side-effect like a Ward or Mit boost, or HP-cap boost)<BR>2)  Reduce casting times of all heals:   (Can change the AA's to reduce the re-use times on the heals)<BR>-- Group (Heal) - 2 seconds<BR>-- Single Target (Heal / Ward) - 1 second<BR>-- Self Only (Castigate / Sacrament) - Instant<BR>3)  Remove the penalty from Pledge and allow us to cast it on ourselves<BR>4)  Change the heal CA's (Condemnation / Circle) frome heals to wards<BR><BR>At this point, take a step back and see how the changes affect players.<BR><BR>If thats not enough, there are a ton of other options, the one Ive read on this board that I liked the most was to add a regenerating ward effect to our self-HP buff.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Anariale on <SPAN class=date_text>12-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:55 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I personally like this idea...this is a start in the right direction. The best idea yet is reducing the casting times of our heals/wards. If you remove the penalty for Pledge then basically wouldn't that be almost like a guardian's hunker down or whatever it is in higher levels?? I wouldn't gripe about a temp mit buff....heck...would improve our image of actually being a tank maybe. The only one that seems useless to me is changing the heal CAs to ward CAs...they're not much of a heal and wouldn't be much of a ward...why not just take off the heal CA and give us a couple of good fighter debuffs...make Circle some kind of AoE DPS debuff and make Condemnation some kind of crushing, slashing, piercing debuff. The only problem I see with this would be what it would do to our fellow fighter classes...these changes would almost make us Pallys a self-healing guardian...only tools we wouldn't have would be tower of stone and reinforcement, but that can easily be overcome with these hurdles...I wouldn't complain one bit about un-nerfing a few things on the Pally to make us an equal when we stand next to a guardian as a raid tank...I'd be the first Pally in my guild to be tooting my own horn and wanting to try them out. I say give us 1 LU to try and see if they changes would make us too powerful and then if it does, slightly tweak it to make us just as equal any other tank out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition to these I'd like to see a reduction in our reuse timer on consecrate...this is a very handly spell to make sure you have a mobs complete hate...We don't have the handy auto taunt guardians have so this would be our way of maintaining the hate toward us. Also, just a very slight change...Pallys were once known for our stun attacks, yes we still have them, but make them much more successful and make it where epics CAN be effected by this stun, but maybe instead of a 5 sec stun on regular mobs, make it a 2.5 sec stun on epics...we're supposed to be the king of the stun attacks...what happened???</DIV><p>Message Edited by txleathertx on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 AM</span>

[Anariale]

<DIV>The reason to change the CA heals to wards is not to make them more powerful, but rather increase the % of the time they are useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, the heal CA's are only useful if you have already taken damage and are not going to be over-healed in the near future (over-healed meaning you arent going to be healed over your max HP by the healed amount by the CA).  This is close to never in *RAID* situations since MT's are generally plastered with heals left and right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By changing these CA heals to wards, they will always be useful.  You are no longer resigned to the HP Cap.  It doesnt matter if youre going to be overhealed, or if youre standing at max HP, the ward will still absorb the damage.  If the ward somehow lasts long enough to wear out, then the ward will heal you for the remaining damage on it.  Thus, there is no downside to this change, only an upside.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a tweak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV>

[MeridianR]

I like the idea of making them wards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

I can agree about avoidance, but after that, many of the arguments in the thread seem flawed.  Guardian debuffs still work if the paladin is tanking.  Paladins can cast wards on guardians, even if they are percentage based.<div></div>

[Rast]

that is why the % based ward would have to be self only to prevent that issue from occuring.