Paladin vs Guardian on Vilucidae - Take 2! [Archive]

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Anariale

12-20-2006, 10:44 AM

<div></div>Ok, guys, I looked through my logs and the last fight before switching to the Guardian had the same Berserker's avoidance for both fights.Here are the stats:Darton vs Vilucidae# of attacks from Vilucidae - 145 # of Blocks - 16 # of Parries - 8# of Ripostes - 5 # of Misses - 21 # of Zanshen Blocks - 17 # of Zanshen Parries - 9# of Zanshen Ripostes - 1 # of Attacks that did damage - 50 # of Attacks that did 0 damage (Fully Warded) - 18 %-hit - 46.9%Total Damage of melee hits - 69876Total Damage Healed - 80106Total Healed / # Attacks - 552.46 Total Healed / # Attacks that Landed - 1178.03(Basically this is incoming damage + warded damage)DPS - 394.69Swings - 470Hits - 249Crits - 27 To-Hit Rate - 52.98%%Overall Crit % - 27 / 249 = 10.8% Slash DPS - 172.16Slash Swings - 206 Slash Hits - 69 Slash Crits - 7 Slash Hit Rate - 33.50%Slash Crit % - 7 / 69 = 10.1%(Uses 1.6 Spd Sword, Silver Sword of Rage)Wyrd vs Vilucidae# of attacks from Vilucidae - 128# of Blocks - 22# of Parries - 5# of Misses - 15# of Zanshen Blocks - 10# of Zanshen Parries - 7# of Attacks that did damage - 46# of Attacks that did 0 damage (Fully Warded) - 23 %-Hit - 53.9% Total Damage of melee hits - 98094Total Damage healed - 110956Total Healed / # Attacks - 866.84Total Healed / # Attacks that Landed - 1608(Basically this is incoming damage + warded damage)DPS - 285.78Swings - 199Hits - 121Crits - 28To-Hit Rate - 60.80% Crit % - 28 / 121 = 23.1%Slash DPS - 109.94Slash Swings - 72Slash Hits - 22Slash Crits - 5Slash Hit Rate - 30.56%Slash Crit % - 5 / 22 = 22.7%(Uses 3.0 Speed Sword, Vilucidae's Sword of Shielding) Anyways, enjoy and discuss. (Note this is not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fest, just a very interesting and direct comparison between two classes in the same spot.)The raid was the same for both pulls with only one discrepancy: 1) Switching Wyrd (Paladin) for Darton (Guardian) Overall raid composition was: 6 Healers (one of each) 6 Fighters (2 Berserkers, 1 Monk, 1 Brawler, 1 SK + Paladin/Guardian swap) 7 Scouts (2 Dirges, 2 Swashies, 1 Assassin, 1 Troub, 1 Ranger) 5 Mages (1 Wizard, 1 Warlock, 1 Coercer, 1 Illusionist, 1 Necro)Wyrd's AA'sSTA - 5 4 8 8 1Wis - 4 4 8Hero - 21 PointsSupport - 7 PointsDarton's AA'sI dont remember as I havent played him in forever, but its the cookie cutter Buckler AA spec w/ max +Mit from the Wisdom lineNote Darton does not have the EoF expansion, so no cloak and no enhanced AA's.<div></div>Message Edited by Anariale on 12-20-2006 08:55 AM

Anariale

12-20-2006, 10:59 AM

As an addendum, if someone wants to rerun some numbers without the last 3 hits on Wyrd, which are what killed her, they were for:372748706920Have fun!<div></div>

Rast

12-20-2006, 07:25 PM

wow, the difference that really stands out is the difference in damage taken on far less hits. Wyrd took almost 30k more damage than did Darton, that is completely unreal. Would have to go in and see things how things like blocks, parries, etc (including from the zerker) would be if things were normalized. But it seems pretty clear that Darton was far superior without a doubt <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thanks for the info.

Seomon

12-20-2006, 08:59 PM

Almost a 30k damage difference. Did you by chance have a healing parse going? The most I healed myself while MTing in Labs on Sunday was 16k, and that was going a little nuts on heals/ward. I know people might get a lot higher than that, but I didn't rez anyone, so no 6k heals.

Anariale

12-20-2006, 09:14 PM

Note that also the Paladin died while the Guardian did not. The fight was longer for the Guardian, which is why he has more incoming attacks against him. There was a heal-parse... if its really big deal, I can drag it up sometime. W

Crib92

12-20-2006, 09:32 PM

Very interesting information there. I'm sure you posted this but what was the make-up of the MT group? I'm curious because I just MT'd this zone for the first time about two weeks ago and first pulled Vilucidae. I never was in any real danger of dying so I'm not sure what the issue was with your tanking experience. Did you catch him in a buggy stance when he has all 4 up at once? While you tried to capture the conditions as best as you could there are so many factors to consider it may be impossible to really compare the situation. Were the debuffs the same throughout the fight? Did you debuff quickly enough when he wiped them?

Anariale

12-20-2006, 09:57 PM

Guardian/Paladin Berserker Templar Defiler Coercer Dirge Wasnt buggy I cant claim to know exactly what debuffs were cast at what time, but seeing as it was explained nonstop for the prior 2 pulls and then again for this one, I would expect they were put in as quickly as possible and once again when vilucidae cured them all. Nonetheless, the above incoming damage is still real. Wyrd's Mit self-buffed is ~5000 and has ~8600 HP. I dont recall Darton's, but I think his mit is around 5200-5300 self-buffed. Ive tanked Vilucidae many many times in the past, along with every encounter in KoS. Im familiar with the mechanics and I know how things are working. It just blows my mind to see my Paladin get annihilated by incoming damage and the Guardian just shrug things off as if they are nothing.

ChopStix

12-20-2006, 10:09 PM

<DIV>can you post the avoidance numbers on wyrd and darton ungrouped in defensive stance?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thank you..</DIV>Message Edited by ChopStix on 12-20-2006 09:10 AM

Seomon

12-20-2006, 10:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote: There was a heal-parse... if its really big deal, I can drag it up sometime. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's only a big deal because that's what's keeping us from having the mit buffs and such that guardians have. Everytime we bring up the fact that we're not tanking as well as we should, people throw the heals in our face. Now, if while tanking, a Guardian takes 30k damage less than we do, but we heal 12k of that, then something needs to be looked at for that remaining 18k damage.

khufure

12-21-2006, 03:23 AM

<blockquote><hr>Seomon wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote: <div></div> There was a heal-parse... if its really big deal, I can drag it up sometime. <hr> </blockquote>It's only a big deal because that's what's keeping us from having the mit buffs and such that guardians have. Everytime we bring up the fact that we're not tanking as well as we should, people throw the heals in our face. Now, if while tanking, a Guardian takes 30k damage less than we do, but we heal 12k of that, then something needs to be looked at for that remaining 18k damage.<hr></blockquote>Not to mention it is really hard to hold aggro while healing, even when not getting interrupted. I'm surprised you didn't lose it. If you got 15+K DPS going you are going to lose aggro if you stop to heal, even a ward.Great information Wyrd. This seems right on with my experiences as a Paladin.<div></div>

hawsecav19d

12-21-2006, 03:25 AM

How much you healed for make some diff and I know the guardians dps debuff makes bit diff but I really have to think its got some to do with whats the mob was debuffed for in each fight. With same mit, adverage hit shouldnt be that big a diff if the mobs debuffed for same. Makes me believe that not all the debuffs stuck. If you could go thru again and try it with your pally and see if you get hit again for same things then would say its got to be just class. If both are within 1-2% of each other in Mit then there should not be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near double damage diff unless its because one fight mobs debuffed more than other.

Anariale

12-21-2006, 03:51 AM

<DIV>A 20% DPS debuff from a Guardian in addition to an extra ~1000 mitigation over time is a pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] big difference.</DIV> <DIV>That doesnt count the +24 to Defense buff, +14 to Parry defensive stance and the -15(?) to all attack skills debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, remember the Guardian was tanking with a Buckler through most of the fight. There were only 2 very short timeframes when the Tower was out (Start of the fight, and when Phase 4 started)... Plus my Paladin has the extra Block AA from EoF so its a 24% base block vs a 19% base block with Tower shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>20% DPS debuff on a single 7000 damage hit is equivalent to a Paladin's Ward that can only be cast once every 15 seconds (10 w/ AA). Mobs swing more than once per 15 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, this just goes to prove how Paladins do not scale well when stepping up to Epic mobs. In smaller groups, mobs dont hit for 5000+ damage per hit, so the Wards of a Paladin stand up well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And btw, Im confident the debuffs were on the mob, but still, its just raw data. Its what was asked for, and I supplied it. Feel free to analyze it any way you see fit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV>Message Edited by Anariale on 12-20-2006 05:52 PM

Seomon

12-21-2006, 03:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote: Not to mention it is really hard to hold aggro while healing, even when not getting interrupted. I'm surprised you didn't lose it. If you got 15+K DPS going you are going to lose aggro if you stop to heal, even a ward. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The only times I lost agro were when I wasn't healing or right at the beginning of a pull. It helps to have the amends target in your group be the highest DPSer on the parse.

Anariale

12-21-2006, 03:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote: Not to mention it is really hard to hold aggro while healing, even when not getting interrupted. I'm surprised you didn't lose it. If you got 15+K DPS going you are going to lose aggro if you stop to heal, even a ward. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The only times I lost agro were when I wasn't healing or right at the beginning of a pull. It helps to have the amends target in your group be the highest DPSer on the parse. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Amends was on the Berserker who was told to taunt nonstop.

OrcSlayer96

12-21-2006, 05:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote: Not to mention it is really hard to hold aggro while healing, even when not getting interrupted. I'm surprised you didn't lose it. If you got 15+K DPS going you are going to lose aggro if you stop to heal, even a ward. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The only times I lost agro were when I wasn't healing or right at the beginning of a pull. It helps to have the amends target in your group be the highest DPSer on the parse. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Amends was on the Berserker who was told to taunt nonstop. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you Anariale for posting with the same berserker, if it isnt much trouble can you look to see how much health via wards,heals,LOH, condemnation and such you provided back to wyrd when he was tanking? I am curious also along with Seomon on how much the paladin gave back to his health in the fight. On a melee only mob like the lyceum end mob i expected the guardian to have better damage absorbtion with his skill set, but wonder how much Wyrd's spells helped in the duration. I have wondered how much a group heal garners a paladin on a raid, is 2/3rds the healed amount straight agro when your aoe's are down or is it closer to 75% or 90%? Is there a way in your log to sift thru the heals/wards and only see what wyrd did in heals/wards/lifetap to get the whole picture?

Mgunner

12-21-2006, 09:03 AM

I think the bottom line is Wryd died, and Darton did not. Clearly Wryd is much better geared. Heals is what makes us different than guardians. We will never be able to take damage outright like a guardian can. If we could, we would be completely broken. This is where I feel that our heal AA's are very useful. With the reduced timers from out STR AA, and the enhancements from our heal line, we can keep ourselves up nicely. When OT on the adds on the second named in FTH, I was able to handle the adds as effectively as our guardian, using heals to compensate. I tanked the x2 in forsaken city with just 7 people only surviving because of my quick healing and warding. Paladins who wish to tank must seriously consider droping the Wrath line in the pally tree, and the spell crit in the crusader tree. The added hate from STR and the HP's from the STA line are big. Block AA is a given. I know you can go about it other ways, but I recommend the heal line. If you have reduced cast speeds, they don't get interrupted as much either. I do miss the spell crit, but I feel i'm much better off tanking without it. I'm happy with EoF because multiple tanks are very important. The number of times I will put on a shield are much greater than they've ever been. We only have 2 guardians in the guild, but more than 2 tanks are often needed.

Crib92

12-21-2006, 09:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mgunner wrote: I think the bottom line is Wryd died, and Darton did not. Clearly Wryd is much better geared. Heals is what makes us different than guardians. We will never be able to take damage outright like a guardian can. If we could, we would be completely broken. This is where I feel that our heal AA's are very useful. With the reduced timers from out STR AA, and the enhancements from our heal line, we can keep ourselves up nicely. When OT on the adds on the second named in FTH, I was able to handle the adds as effectively as our guardian, using heals to compensate. I tanked the x2 in forsaken city with just 7 people only surviving because of my quick healing and warding. Paladins who wish to tank must seriously consider droping the Wrath line in the pally tree, and the spell crit in the crusader tree. The added hate from STR and the HP's from the STA line are big. Block AA is a given. I know you can go about it other ways, but I recommend the heal line. If you have reduced cast speeds, they don't get interrupted as much either. I do miss the spell crit, but I feel i'm much better off tanking without it. I'm happy with EoF because multiple tanks are very important. The number of times I will put on a shield are much greater than they've ever been. We only have 2 guardians in the guild, but more than 2 tanks are often needed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> To each his own but I completely disagree. Healing is not something I worry about if I'm MT or OT. I want to max my dps to aid with my hate. Pallies specialize in AOE damage and that is a strength we need to build on. My recommendation for Pallies: Max health (Sta and Hero) and max dps (Int and wrath). Mitigation is not as important now so increasing your health is key. Adornments are your friend. I still think something is fishy with this fight. Making assumptions off of one parse when Wyrd has successfully tanked it before doesn't do anything for me.

Seomon

12-21-2006, 10:09 PM

I can get around the same DPS and heal at the same time. Power regen isn't really an issue on most raid fights, so spamming everything hurts nothing.

Domiuk

12-21-2006, 10:30 PM

You have posted a lot of information there but seem to have missed a few fundamentals. How many HPS did both have , how much mitigation exactly and how much avoidance exactly. One other clear thing is the Vilucidae fight is one that very much favours a guardian as a MT as he has no aoe to speak of which means stone sphere is very effective (Did you use this ?) and of course a guardian gets TOS frankly these 2 abilities alone are enough to equate to 30k damage in the right circumstances. He also has 2 spike damage portions of the fight that guardians abilities are much better at dealing with that is the guardians biggest strength. Try the same thing on Vyemm I think most people would agree he is a mob of a similar lvl of difficulty or try any mob that fears (plenty of them) and remember guards dont get it all there own way. Tanking has 2 real components being able to survive and being able to hold agro. I am quite serious in stating that no one holds agro better than a paladin with the right setup, so if you get the best agro there has to be a tradeoff.

Anariale

12-21-2006, 11:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Domiuk wrote: You have posted a lot of information there but seem to have missed a few fundamentals. -- Which is why its a discussion. Any info missed, just ask and Ill do my best to respond. How many HPS did both have , how much mitigation exactly and how much avoidance exactly. -- Both had ~12.5K HP's when fully buffed. The Guardian has ~5300 Mit pre-buffs, the Paladin has ~5000. However, the Guardian also has 2 mitigation buffs for 1K each. The avoidance, the Paladin has 24% block, the Guardian has 19% with Tower, ~10% with buckler (which was used except for start and phase 4 ToS). I dont recall their base defense or parry %'s. The important part to note though is that both are fully fabled and mastered out... their gear is roughly equivalent. One other clear thing is the Vilucidae fight is one that very much favours a guardian as a MT as he has no aoe to speak of which means stone sphere is very effective (Did you use this ?) and of course a guardian gets TOS frankly these 2 abilities alone are enough to equate to 30k damage in the right circumstances. -- I did not use Stone Sphere, was no need. As soon as the mob entered Phase 4, I hit Divine Aura on the Paladin (Absorbs all damage up to 50% of the Paladin's health for 10 seconds... thats up to 6.25K per hit) and ToS for the Guardian (3 hits absorbed) to give a quick couple seconds for our healers to re-apply their debuffs. He also has 2 spike damage portions of the fight that guardians abilities are much better at dealing with that is the guardians biggest strength. -- Isnt that all of raiding though? Slow steady damage is easily healed through. The only real challenges come from spike damage... and thats for any tank. Its why mobs become very easy once they are debuffed. Try the same thing on Vyemm I think most people would agree he is a mob of a similar lvl of difficulty or try any mob that fears (plenty of them) and remember guards dont get it all there own way. -- Vyemm is a joke of a mob. He hits like a pansy and is extremely easy to kill. Any tank in game can easily kill Vyemm without even blinking... especially since they nerfed the crap out of all of Vyemm's AE's. Tanking has 2 real components being able to survive and being able to hold agro. I am quite serious in stating that no one holds agro better than a paladin with the right setup, so if you get the best agro there has to be a tradeoff. -- Guardians hold aggro on single target mobs better than Paladins... unless the Paladin has a Guardian to put Amends on... which kinda defeats the purpose. Guardians have higher base melee, better CA damage and double-attack... not to mention the snap-aggro of Reinforcement. I used to think Paladins held aggro better, but that was before I played my Guardian. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Message Edited by Anariale on 12-21-2006 02:08 PM

mortem

12-23-2006, 09:50 AM

<div></div>One huge thing notice right off was the bat was the 145 attacks vs the 120something the pally took before going down. The paladin got hit less (due to dying) but for almost 30k more dmg. That is like 23 or so wards to make up for the dmg without adjusting the amount of incoming dmg to equal the amount of hits. So I guess we are supposed to constantly ward/heal ourselves and hold aggro for 3-5 mins and not run out of power lol.Thanks for running these numbers by the way Wyrd :smileyhappy:. very interesting imo edit: spellingMessage Edited by amadeusex on 12-22-2006 08:52 PM

Anariale

12-26-2006, 10:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> amadeusex wrote: One huge thing notice right off was the bat was the 145 attacks vs the 120something the pally took before going down. The paladin got hit less (due to dying) but for almost 30k more dmg. That is like 23 or so wards to make up for the dmg without adjusting the amount of incoming dmg to equal the amount of hits. So I guess we are supposed to constantly ward/heal ourselves and hold aggro for 3-5 mins and not run out of power lol. Thanks for running these numbers by the way Wyrd :smileyhappy:. very interesting imo edit: spelling Message Edited by amadeusex on 12-22-2006 08:52 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Note that the damage taken by the Paladin includes all the heals I could muster in the fight, so its already considering the "realistic" level of heals of a MT Paladin.