A Pally raid tank...can this be true???

[txleathertx]

<DIV> <P>First of all, let me introduce myself since this is my first post. I’m Txleather, PROUD 70 Pally. I am a member of a good sized raiding guild on The Bazaar server, Vae Victus. I’m not the best of all the Pallys on Bazaar, but I’m very nicely equipped. I have a few weak links in my armor that DKP can fix real easy….would be nice if they’d make some of the pieces of the Firebrand for Pallys too (i.e. Firebrand Shoulders!!!!!!)…but hey…we’re the red-headed step child of the plate class…Sony hates us…lol.</P> <P>Anyways, it seems that I have barked pretty loud in my guild…loud enough to be heard and given a chance. Us Pallys know we can heal, DPS, and tank…but it seems that some other folks don’t believe in calling us tanks. I’m out to prove otherwise. I have been main assist with my guild for a good while…I enjoy the job and consider that a step in the right direction for a Pally. I know I have had this very discussion in level chat with disastrous outcomes. Guardians just won’t believe that a Pally can do it…we’re light on taunts. I have overcome this in my guild. Our main tank is a guardian, but it is also a fair guild willing to see if this ol’ gimpy Pally can hang. I am to where the pavement meets the road now. We have Lyceum raid later tonight (12/17) and it appears that I might be the main tank. Yes, we have other guardians we can use, but I’ve been barking pretty loud about at least getting a shot. I have done the x2 city writ raids as a tease and taste…I’ve got the leadership to handle it…I’ve got a guild that will stand behind me pass or fail. I know that it will take a bit longer for me gain the hate I need to say the mob is mine…we expect to start DPS slow and work up from there…debuff debuff and debuff more at first…Righteousness is m2…Clarion Cry is m1…Rescue is AD3…Sigil of heroism is ad3…Amends is m1…Valorous Dash is ad3. I would think gaining hate is not gonna be a problem. I have seen my HP buffed to 12k in raid, but that wasn’t being in the MT group…in our MT group I hit 10.8 HP (without Bolster…with Bolster I’m just over 15K)…not bad…could be better. This is where I’m asking for suggestions on a nice MT group setup for a Pally tank…all classes are available. Right now our MT group consists of a dirge, templar, warden, defiler or mystic, and conjie. I’m light on mental resist, I admit this, but it’s not a big concern. My mit is just over 5000 buffed in a group, without a strap-on Pally pledging me.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Has anyone that posts in here ever been MT in a raid?? Any tips for the noob MT here?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have made a full pulls but never did a whole zone as MT…what things should I watch for other than pulling multiple mobs, etc…anything that would unique to a Pally being a MT???</P> <P> </P> <P>I don’t see this being a big problem…just different strategy. I refuse to listen to ANYONE that tells me that Pally can’t tank a raid and I tell the very few other rockin’ Pallys we have in our guild. <SPAN> </SPAN>I know we get poked fun at a lot more than most other classes…”strap-on Pally”, “paper tank”, “wanna be tank”, “wanna be healer”…the list could go on and on. LOL…I can accept those jokes...but I want bragging rights as well as prove that my big mouth is right…a Pally can tank!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh yea…forgot to warn y’all…I’m long winded….LOL.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for your help!!!</P> <P> </P> <P align=center><FONT color=#ff0000 size=7><STRONG><EM><U>PALLY POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</U></EM></STRONG></FONT></P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Domiuk]

<P>Nothing wrong with pally as a raid tank, imo its a complete myth that they cant raid tank.</P> <P>5k mitigation is enough to tank anything with the combat changes, you do however also need very good avoidance and HPS as high as you can get them.</P> <P>A pallie can hit I believe 29% block that should be your aim as well as +def and +parry on anything you can get while keeping close to 5k mit.</P> <P>If you have access to all classes then use a warrior (either is fine) as your amends target, this also gives you short term mit buffs for pulls, plus his avoidance as an extra.  (the raid also has a fully buffed backup tank if you go down).</P> <P>Other than that standard plate tank group setup of Dirge,Defiler,Templar, last slot take your own preference from warden, conjurer, coercer, assasin.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[PolarBear77]

Hey bro, go to our website and check and look at the video they have posted on the front page.. that will show you who tanked the zone for us. We kept whipin with Kal tanking so i was like "let me have a go at it" needless to says first pulled the whole zone sept for the last name took us a couple of pulls to figuer out the strat but in the end he fell to.

[Lairdragna]

It can be done, your guild just needs to learn to work with a pally tank.  I'm main assist on most of our raids now, it was a job I never wanted, but alas... I'm stuck with it.  I've prevented more than a few wipes by picking it up when the Guardian or Zerk dies.  I still manage to be one of the top half parsing healers on many raids.  For some reason a lot of them feel their job is dps /boggle.  I have very nice gear, around 75% masters (all heals, taunts and ward), adorned out the [Removed for Content], claymore shield and ascendent.  Your mileage may vary, but it indeed can be done.<div></div>

[Rocksthemic]

Aye, a paladin can raid tank if properly geared. I would recommend the gaurdian or beserker for hate gain. Prefferably a beserker because they can gain you large amounts of AE aggro if need be. Generally when I am thrust into the MT role for my guild I use me, templar, shaman, dirge, coercer, and either a monk or a beserker. Monks are GREAT amends targets for a single mob. If you are fighting a named, they can give you avoidance and turn on hate stance, and you should never lose aggro. With the mitigation curve, the mit buffs won't help you as much unless your priests are slow on curing trauma. Mit buffs give you a little extra cushion there. I myself try and have us set up with 2 main tank groups whenever possible. I am not saying don't try and tank for your guild, but for my purposes, the most bang for the buck whenever possible is to have MT group be gaurdian, coercer, dirge, templar, defiler, and swashy with hate dump. Then have secondary MT group set up with illusionist, inquis or templar, mystic, monk, beserker, and perhaps another scout with hate dump that can throw it on the beserker if need be when the MT goes down. I find this generally covers your bases fairly well. Of course the tank in the back up tank group can be Pally, SK, Beserker, or really any figher class. Even a bruiser will do ok in this group because hopefully your MT is living long enough for debuffs to land hehe. And once Debuffs land tanking becomes vastly easier. <div></div>

[Jackula]

No advice to give here, just encouragement.  I'm lucky enough to be guilded with an amazing pally.  The things he can pull off blows me away.   He's a solid part of all of our successes.  Don't let anyone tell you that you can't tank.It's no different than players who say Guardians can't dps.  I like proving them wrong too.  Cheers mate.  Best of luck raid tanking and converting all of the unbelievers.<div></div>

[Caetrel]

To the OP:     Lots of pallies have MT'd or MT for their guild.  If your guild is not hardcore endgame you will be a fine MT, the really hard stuff (i.e. stuff that has not been beaten yet/ beaten by very few)  needs every edge a raidforce can get and so Guards are the choice.     Main advice I would give is find what works for you,  Paladins are very flexible MTs.   As a community we generally don't agree on anything.   Only thing I'd suggest is play around with Amends on your Defiler, it's not the first choice you'd think of but can work well (not good on green stuff lol you need to be taking a beating for your Deflier to generate more hate).    From my experience if you are MTing Templar/Warden/Defiler/Dirge/Swash or Assasin make a decent group.  Get your avoidance as high over 60% as you can and get your health up.  But really, play around, find what works for you and your guild.    <div></div>

[Tiko_7801]

<P>TXLEATHER /waves </P> <P> </P> <P>Ok there are better then firebrand shoulders for pally that drop in Labs (same places as firebrand) Templar get firebrand shoulders pallies get mantle of the vindicator last mob prior to the Lord Vym</P>

[TheBu]

<DIV>i have never tanked tier7 raids...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i can come up with a few ideas...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You said ur mt group is....</DIV> <DIV>dirge, templar, warden, defiler or mystic, and conjie</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yet u have all the classes avliable... Why you guys go with this? does it seem your MT need alot of healing?<BR>I sometimes see </DIV> <DIV>also how does the agro control go? do you wait along time before aoes?</DIV> <DIV>what kinda parses? and ur parse?( you could try a parse with ur self in def stance..)</DIV> <DIV>do you have a high hitter?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would think agro should be wer the pally str come in... you have amends <BR>so I would think you should push the for DPS and speed tru the zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not sur u need the Coercer for hate gain u prob need it for power regen.</DIV> <DIV>someone  said a berserker up above...  I like a shadowknight.  they have the same addition chance to avoid spell that u have and might be nice hate buff on them and u take ther agro... and well the gift of armor is a good thing... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just some thoughs... I would think with a pally as mt you should be able to go full burn real fast.</DIV>

[Hauskald]

<DIV>I MT Deathtoll any many other T7 raid instances with my Paladin and it really is a matter of having a different set up in the MT group than if you had a guardian MT.  The above poster recommended a Zerker to Amends and to cast avoidance on the paladin and I cannot say that I have found a better person to amend than a zerker.  You can even Amends a guardian and get a lot of the benefits.  I also have found any brawler class can work and their avoidance buffs can really be a lifesaver.  I have expermented with wizards and other casters to amend for hate and it just doesn't work well.  I think having another tank class really works the best.  Any other class can die too often and without your amends a paladin can be in trouble.  I completed the wisdom and stamina line and here is why.  The wisdom line give me the fear immunity which can be invaluable since a lot of t7 mobs fear (consider pretty much the entire HoS zone).  While you can laugh and watch the guardians and zerkers go running off in fear and taking the whole raid out of position for an ill-time AOE a paladin with the WIS line stands fast and true and is simply a better tank Vs. fear based mobs.  IMHO this is a defining ability of the crusader and really one that should be taken because it gives us a definite niche that no other tank can take from us.  The reason I tool the stamina like is personal preference, but anyone who has raided knows sometimes the stuff hits the fan and despite the best efforts of anyone, especially on a pull, it is hard to stabilize an encounter of the raid needs a little time to get a healer up or recover from an AOE.  I have found that the 10 second absorb on attacks can be a raid saver, but again, this is my preference and along with LoH gives me something I can do to personally save a raid from a wipe in a pinch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I don't see any reason why a Paladin isn't as good a choice for a raid tank as any other class.  I think the best way to go is have a combination of a warrior and paladin and go by the situation.  Obviously, Paladins are also and amazing off tank choice and can buff the MT group and the MT extremely well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[khufure]

<div></div>Assume you have seen this post?<span></span><div></div>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=31771<p>Message Edited by khufure on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 PM</span>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR> Assume you have seen this post?<SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=31771<BR> <P>Message Edited by khufure on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No disrespect intended to Anariale or anybody else, but the example he posted is not a good example.  Comparing a monk to a berserker was not accurate at all for the avoidance check.  I agree that the guardian would take less damage than the paladin in the hits that come in but looking at the deflection/parry skill percent of the monk versus the block/parry of the berserker the avoidance check gretly favors the guardian.  In a herioc battle the monk would be for the win but anybody reading the forums lately knows the deflection skill is virtually ifnored right now and the devs are working on making at least a portion of it uncontested like the way block works now.  Taking that into consideration when going against epic content for now i woul much rather have the block of the berserker versus the deflection of the monk.  Besides that, the berserker had 10.31% parry versus the monk's 2.65%, quite a large gap for comparison.  </P> <P>For this example to work right, Anariale needs to either have both his paladin and his guardian characters with the same support tank.  Choose either the monk or the berserker but dont split them up again.  Don't get me wrong, i appreciate his post but it doesn't show a accurate overall damage to either player when you change the avoicance checker out...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div></div><p>No disrespect intended to Anariale or anybody else, but the example he posted is not a good example.  Comparing a monk to a berserker was not accurate at all for the avoidance check.  I agree that the guardian would take less damage than the paladin in the hits that come in but looking at the deflection/parry skill percent of the monk versus the block/parry of the berserker the avoidance check gretly favors the guardian.  In a herioc battle the monk would be for the win but anybody reading the forums lately knows the deflection skill is virtually ifnored right now and the devs are working on making at least a portion of it uncontested like the way block works now.  Taking that into consideration when going against epic content for now i woul much rather have the block of the berserker versus the deflection of the monk.  Besides that, the berserker had 10.31% parry versus the monk's 2.65%, quite a large gap for comparison.  </p> <p>For this example to work right, Anariale needs to either have both his paladin and his guardian characters with the same support tank.  Choose either the monk or the berserker but dont split them up again.  Don't get me wrong, i appreciate his post but it doesn't show a accurate overall damage to either player when you change the avoicance checker out...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>Whatever the reason, Guardians take far less damage than Paladins.  This happens in groups or in raids.  People consistentlysay this because of one reason - its true!  Paladin's are assist tanks..</div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Whatever the reason, Guardians take far less damage than Paladins.  <U><EM><STRONG>This happens in groups</STRONG></EM></U> or in raids.  People consistentlysay this because of one reason - its true!  Paladin's are assist tanks..<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Gonna disagree with you as this being an absolute. I helped out a guildy the other evening take out an orange ^^^ heroic encounter (with several yellow ^^^ adds through the entire scenario) he needed for some quest item. Before I came to help, there was a guard in the MT spot. The group wiped on their attempts, and he eventually had to leave. I came to fill in, and we had zero difficulty with the encounter. The rest of the group makeup never changed. Afterwards everyone commented on how smoothly it went, and how surprised they were at how much LESS damage I took. This was with one healer in the group, so there wasn't overlapping heal stuff going on, nor a lack of DPS, etc.</P> <P>People need to get over the stigmas. At the extreme end of raiding, Guards and Zerks currently have the advantage. I won't deny that. However there is NO group content that paladins can not tank as effectively as, or better than any warrior. If you toss Nek3, Nizara or MM Castle up, feel free. I've tanked all three with no more difficulty than any similarly geared warrior.</P> <P>~Hawke<BR></P>

[txleathertx]

<P>Thanks all for the encouragement. The feeling I've always gotten from others is that a Pally cannot even think being a raid tank...yet when arses are on the line and the chips are down...all of a sudden we're god. We are just a casual raiding guild...we pretty well have a set schedual of what we're raiding...Labs friday...Deathtoll saturday. Like most of you I am the off tank...not a job I chose...it chose me by accident and I LOVED IT. From the sounds of it, the raid makeup don't need to change much...just a slow build up of DPS. Just can't come out with all guns blazing. I have zero problems or worries about  single target encounters...cake walk...Multi target encounters have my worries...I chose M2 in righteousness...nice pally debuff...I use it even when not MT or MA for debuff factor....not a strong encounter taunt, but I have found that taunt followed by relentless conviction will pretty well plant the feet of MOST mobs right at me...if worse comes to worse...a pally can be a mean 1 minute dot...hit consecrate and it's a done deal. Mainly what I want is Labs...our guild does very well there...I know the zone very well...I'm comfortable there. I'm trying hard to make that my first full raid as MT due to the comfort level. I just still sense some uncomfort in my guild leaders,but seemingly only in the leaders...those below me are helping push me and I am FOREVER in their debt...I keep asking for my chance and they still bring in a backup main tank we have...it's someone's alt. Pally is my only level 70 toon and probably will be for a really long time...most Pallys will tell not anyone can be a Pally...you can't buy a Pally on the exchange and expect to be raid ready right away...you have to know how mobs react to certain spells...how to burst your dps at the start to get hate. I completely understand my guild leader's uncomfort, but actions speak louder than words. I also admit I'm not the strongest of all the Pallys...hell...I'm probably more in the middle of the pack than anyone here...My heat resist sucks, my shoulders and shield really suck...not treasured...but shoulders are the spaudlers of earthly might from Courts...my shield is the ghost shield from Claymore line...the rest is fabled...my health unbuffed is middle 6000s...my mit buffed defensive is edgeing 5000...avoidance buffed outta group is over 40%...so I'm probably not the first choice of MT...but then that's where the person behind the keyboard falls in...I know that I don't have the mit and avoid. edge a zerker/guardian have...nor the HP...but I do have the power in a fight to throw up my own ward and my own heals. I've already antisipated this and threw up my own heals after I get the aggro I need.</P> <P>So far it is my understanding that I will be at point for Friday's raid...but only up to the Corlander (ok...so my spelling sux)...after that our backup guardian wants the practice of pulling Vyemm, but I plan on finding that grove and rocking so hard that they won't want to change...so if you're on the Bazaar server friday night and you see the blue smoke of consecrate bellowing outta labs, you smell whiskey in the air, and you hear Vyemm's teeth chattering outta fear...you will know I'm rocking the labs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Again...thanks to all of you for encouragement and advise.</P> <P>Incase you're curious....<A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=315099117" target=_blank>here's the link to my toon</A></P> <P> </P> <P>WOOT...PALLY POWER FTW!!!!!!</P>

[Brentielal]

<P><IMG src="http://xs110.xs.to/xs110/06512/AAMAIN.JPG"></P> <P><IMG src="http://xs110.xs.to/xs110/06512/Stats.JPG"></P> <P>That is basicly what I roll with and I have tanked ALOT of t7... Here is my link to get a look, I went for avoidance over mit due to the combat change... Mind you I could go back but I would loose about 6% avoidance and would only gain about 1.5mit</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=324242108" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=324242108</A></P>

[MeridianR]

I don't think people have said "We 100% can't tank", but the fact remains a Guardian is the better choice for raid tanking.We can do it (I tanked all of DT, all KoS contested, HoS, LoA, Labs, AoA, etc before EoF with no problems), but other then doing it to prove a point, or if a Guardian (or Zerker) isn't available, it is not the smartest choice.  I used this before, but here goes again:A top end (both in gear and skill) Paladin can tank everything there is, but a middle of the road Guardian (both in gear and skill) can do it easier.<div></div>

[Lairdragna]

Yeah, Phov is spot on.  Another issue is your raid needs to know HOW to tank with a paladin.  We generate and hold aggro differently than a guardian does... some folks are locked into the guardian as MT mentality and refuse to adapt to a pally tanking.  This will lead to a lot of wipes before they wise up.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Yeah, Phov is spot on.  Another issue is your raid needs to know HOW to tank with a paladin.  We generate and hold aggro differently than a guardian does... some folks are locked into the guardian as MT mentality and refuse to adapt to a pally tanking.  This will lead to a lot of wipes before they wise up.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Good point, that is something that the raid needs to get used to.  We have no snap aggro other then Rescue, so it takes a little bit longer to get stuff under control.  Our AE aggro is built 90% of the way through the use of our AE's (Righteousness is on a 20sec timer) - so that is another big thing to remember.We are a great Off Tank, there is no doubt about that....I think off tanking in KoS at least was where we truly shined.</div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Brentielal wrote: <P>(AA pic cut out)</P> <P>I went for avoidance over mit due to the combat change... Mind you I could go back but I would loose about 6% avoidance and would only gain about 1.5mit</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't think any of our AAs gave us extra mit. How would switching your AAs increase your mit by 1.5? Or were you possibly talking about switching out some gear?</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <P>No disrespect intended to Anariale or anybody else, but the example he posted is not a good example.  Comparing a monk to a berserker was not accurate at all for the avoidance check.  I agree that the guardian would take less damage than the paladin in the hits that come in but looking at the deflection/parry skill percent of the monk versus the block/parry of the berserker the avoidance check gretly favors the guardian.  In a herioc battle the monk would be for the win but anybody reading the forums lately knows the deflection skill is virtually ifnored right now and the devs are working on making at least a portion of it uncontested like the way block works now.  Taking that into consideration when going against epic content for now i woul much rather have the block of the berserker versus the deflection of the monk.  Besides that, the berserker had 10.31% parry versus the monk's 2.65%, quite a large gap for comparison.  </P> <P>For this example to work right, Anariale needs to either have both his paladin and his guardian characters with the same support tank.  Choose either the monk or the berserker but dont split them up again.  Don't get me wrong, i appreciate his post but it doesn't show a accurate overall damage to either player when you change the avoicance checker out...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Whatever the reason, Guardians take far less damage than Paladins.  This happens in groups or in raids.  People consistentlysay this because of one reason - its true!  Paladin's are assist tanks..<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hawke already posted about group situations and i agree with him on that.  Our skill set is much better in solo/group situation to absorb damage than in a epic situation.  In epic content, dealing in MELEE damage the guardian has better skills to absorb the dmage bar none.  Versus mem wipe, heavy spell damage/AOE, and fear mobs, i put more onto a properly geared paladin.  The problem i see with many paladins is that they try to play the mitigation race with warriors, a losing battle from the start.  Equip your paladin as close to 63% mitigation and 63% avoidance and you will very effective versus almost all the content in the game.  I have seen spells and effects outright resisted on my paladin that just cripples a guardian or berserker, and with the EOF aa line that allow us to cure all but trauma we have another skill to help.</P> <P>EOF has opened up the playing field to a degree now and all fighters need to learn what they need to to improve their tanking capabilities.  Old school thinking is maxxing mitigation and avoidance, new school is what is a acceptable level of mitigation to the gain i get in other things such as more parry/defense/block/reposte, not to mention health, wisdom and resists.  Your selection of adornments will give you a much better chance on many of the encounters than you had before.    What they do with Agression skill will have a large impact on our tanking resist crazy mobs now and into the future.<BR></P>

[Brentielal]

<DIV>I Meant Overall absobtion, I can get about another 500mit and that really does not mean much, but that 6-7% avoidance means ALOT. Yes I meant Gear... I went for 8 agi to add to that avoidance.. I might have to switch cause I miss my Spell Crits.. Might even go back into heal crits.. </DIV> <DIV>And I just looked at My equipment from that link.. That is not what I wear, I was goofing off after a LoA raid, lol.. Guess it has yet to update.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Brentielal on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[Anariale]

<P>Just to note, I agree with Steel that that comparison wasnt the best in the end.  Its why I posted it, so that I could get others' points of view on what was happening.  Its an interesting note, and the one glowing tidbit of info to pull from it is that Tower Shields are king for avoidance on epic mobs.  There are other points worth noting, but in the end, yeah, its not as good as a 1:1 comparison as I would have liked.</P> <P>Still, I wish there was a way for me to convey the difference in feel it is to play a Paladin vs a Guardian as a MT.  With equivalent gear, the Guardian just feels sturdy as a rock, while the Paladin feels like it can fail at any moments notice.  Also having worked nonstop with our healing crew, they all give the same exact feedback, that a Paladin just does not have the stability that a Guardian does.</P> <P>I hope to find better examples in the future, but as for now, its just my insight on the classes.</P> <P>And as a sidenote, Agi really doesnt mean that much to a Plate tank.  Yes, more is always good, but I wouldnt sacrifice other stats to raise youre agility.  Our base avoidance and Parry chance is only 5%, which is extremely low.  Most of our avoidance on epic mobs comes from our Shields, of which Agi has no effect.</P> <P>W</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Just to note, I agree with Steel that that comparison wasnt the best in the end.  Its why I posted it, so that I could get others' points of view on what was happening.  Its an interesting note, and the one glowing tidbit of info to pull from it is that Tower Shields are king for avoidance on epic mobs.  There are other points worth noting, but in the end, yeah, its not as good as a 1:1 comparison as I would have liked.</P> <P>Still, I wish there was a way for me to convey the difference in feel it is to play a Paladin vs a Guardian as a MT.  With equivalent gear, the Guardian just feels sturdy as a rock, while the Paladin feels like it can fail at any moments notice.  Also having worked nonstop with our healing crew, they all give the same exact feedback, that a Paladin just does not have the stability that a Guardian does.</P> <P>I hope to find better examples in the future, but as for now, its just my insight on the classes.</P> <P>And as a sidenote, Agi really doesnt mean that much to a Plate tank.  Yes, more is always good, but I wouldnt sacrifice other stats to raise youre agility.  Our base avoidance and Parry chance is only 5%, which is extremely low.  Most of our avoidance on epic mobs comes from our Shields, of which Agi has no effect.</P> <P>W</P> <P>Message Edited by Anariale on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I still think it was very nice of you to take the time to post from both of your players.  If the OT was the same it would of been close to what we need for a comparison, but to be honest it will be hard to achieve that.  With a paladin's need to bump all of our stats up to be effective, the absence of the plus parry skill on our defense stance and the group defense buff missing we give up a chunk of avoidance.  The Hero line helps give us back a better form of avoidance(epic mobs dont penalize block checks like base avoidance), and some adornments/gear to buff up our defense/parry/block, we can help bridge that difference and in the case of block, blow past a warrior.  Speccing a plus stamina/health on the character traits in addition to stamina line in kos and the hero line in eof, should guarantee a paladin will have higher health in a group than a guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I admit that i am not a 7 night a week raider and our guild raids generally 3-4 nights a week, but with the aa specs and traits i have and the gear i have won on dkp bids, my health is usually around 8,900 and power around 4,350.   Right now i have all but my shoulders in banana yellow relic with alot of backup gear, so there is still alot of room for improvement gear wise.  Currently in raiding situations i have more fun with my adorned adamatine hammer and the shield of wurms in offense mode than any other gear set i have.  Mobs slip off MT or adds appear, one click on defense stance and my block/avoidance is helping me survive better than the race to high mitigation ever did.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing i have noticed, is how healers respond to the color of your health.   Maxxing my health with a slight loss to mitigation but much bigger gain to avoidance seems easier to my healers than a slight mitiagtion gain but a large loss in total health.  Healers see me drop into low green at max health spec they feel more comfortable than if i drop into deep yellow on max mit spec.  Plus, mitigation is no protection when getting nailed by a frontal barrage or nasty aoe.  Mitigation is still important but health for me is more so.<BR></DIV>

[Anariale]

<DIV>As a metric, self-buffed my Paladin has ~8300 HP and just shy of 5K Mit.  When I had 8 points into the Stam AA HP line I had 8692 HP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid buffed I have ~12.4K HP now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for comparing the extra block of the Paladin though to compare on avoidance... on that quick comparison...</DIV> <DIV>Guardian with Buckler + Berserker Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>compared to</DIV> <DIV>Paladin with Tower (w/ 21 Hero AA) + Monk Avoidance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...and the Paladin got painted up bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a metric, self-buffed my Paladin has ~8300 HP and just shy of 5K Mit.  When I had 8 points into the Stam AA HP line I had 8692 HP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid buffed I have ~12.4K HP now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for comparing the extra block of the Paladin though to compare on avoidance... on that quick comparison...</DIV> <DIV>Guardian with Buckler + Berserker Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>compared to</DIV> <DIV>Paladin with Tower (w/ 21 Hero AA) + Monk Avoidance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...and the Paladin got painted up bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly, take the blasted monk out of the equation, his avoidance versus epic encounters is about as worthwhile as my death ward.  We have seen the devs state numerous times that they are still working on making the monks deflection at least partially like the plate tanks block skill on being uncontested avoidance.  Give the paladin the same berserker with his avoidance check and keep the monk in another group.  In group situations the monk's avoidance is great, but epic mobs seem to virtually ignore their avoidance still and until i see a update that says differently, i take plate tank avoidance any day on epics.  All this being said, it will still favor the guardian, just not as overwhelming as it is now with the monk avoidance.<BR>

[Anariale]

<P>The ironic part is that I had another fight in the middle there with a Zerk as the OT for the Paladin and it was basically the same thing as the Monk as the OT.  The Paladin still got annihilated.</P> <P>Ill check my logs tonight to see if its still there or if i lost it.</P> <P>W</P>