Whats everyone's thoughts on Paladin now ?

[Ralcing]

<div></div>    Looking for opinions what everyone's thoughts is on the Paladin. Are u enjoying? sad of dislike the paladin?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Ralcing on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 AM</span>

[Anariale]

<DIV>The class is still a sub-par Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can do neat things in groups of 6 or less, but in anything larger, your skills just dont scale well enough.</DIV>

[Wulfborne]

<P>I like playing mine. Yeah, there's stuff I'd like to see tweaked or changed, but at the end of the day I've always had fun playing him. Even though I have quite a few alts, I always come back to the paladin.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[kmoney679]

I recently started a Paladin and am really enjoying it!  Im already lvl 27 after about 40 hours of play time and it just keeps getting better and better.  One downside is though, alot of people dont respect the Paladins abilities!  I get responses like "your a paladin, you cant join our group".  Doesnt really bother me, because when people do let me be main tank they tell me how good I am, i credit that to being a Paladin! 

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <DIV>The class is still a sub-par Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> LOL it's b/c you try to play your pally like a guard no wonder you can't tank [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with him. I know this is brain sceince but crusaders don't tank the same way as warriors do. when you figure this out  i think you won't be so dissapointed in your pally. he have tons of other tnak pallys that post on here say ya we need some love but never going as far as you do saying we are trash tanks so you ahd a bad run in Lycuem, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] happens man don't judge the other all of the class from one encounter and another thign (don't member what stage you said he was in) but did you ever check the debuffs on the mob Shammy,Swashy debuffs etc. The ones that debuff the mobs Offence.<BR><p>Message Edited by PolarBear77 on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Robbpilot]

<P>Interesting.  I created a paladin because they have great utility and flexibilty for a tank class.  I expected to solo a lot, and group occasionally.  When I grouped, I expected to fill a support role, doing DPS, off tanking, supplementing heals/wards, and putting aggro reduction on one of the nukers.  Actually, 90% of the time I group, I'm being asked to MT.  Now, what surprises me is that this even happens when berserkers of the same level are in the group.  The current thought seems to be that letting the berserker go full offensive is more effective than having him/her MT.  So, unless a guardian or higher level player is in the group, I'm being asked to MT most of the time.  I don't mind tanking (I have a 70 berserker too) it is just surprising to me that DPS is trumping utility of late.</P> <P>There are times though, when I'm running my LFG tag and groups keep calling for a tank but don't invite me.  I figure... that's their problem if they don't want a crusader to tank for them LOL.</P> <P>I've been investing my AA's into healing lines.  I wonder if most higher level paladins would encourage or discourage that though.  I'm sure I could be a more effective soloer with the points spent elsewhere... and if pick up groups are going to want me to MT most of the time, that only adds to that thought.</P>

[Anariale]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im quite certain I know the ins and outs of both Paladins and Guardians fairly well.  I know that as a Paladin I have to play differently than a Guardian, as I have played both toons and have tanked most mobs in KoS with each of the toons.</P> <P>I thoroughly enjoy my Paladin in anything up to a 2-group situation.  However, on a raid, its quite obvious how much more effective Guardians are at handling aggro and the MT job.  If you dont see this, odds are your Guardian isnt as skilled of a player as you are.</P> <P>Can Paladins tank everything in game?  Probably<BR>Does that mean Guardians dont do it better?  Not in the slightest</P> <P>The bottom line is that if you want to play 1-2g stuff and tank, either a Guardian or Paladin can do the job fine, and the smaller the group, the better the Paladin is compared to the Guardian.  However, if you want to tank the x4 stuff, roll a Guardian because its a better choice.</P> <P>W</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 PM</span>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>Robbpilot wrote:<div></div>I've been investing my AA's into healing lines.  I wonder if most higher level paladins would encourage or discourage that though.  I'm sure I could be a more effective soloer with the points spent elsewhere... and if pick up groups are going to want me to MT most of the time, that only adds to that thought.<hr></blockquote>I'm going down the heal line but for raiding purposes only.  If you do pickup groups where you're the tank Hero and Support lines would benefit you most.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>Well, as I could care less about x4 content (I simply do not have the time to do it), I am in general very happy with my Pally (who should make 61 this weekend).  I'm still learning the MT role in groups as I spent a good portion of my early levels either solo or as OT/TA to another Pally who was higher and better geared than I was, but he has since moved on and I've been thust into that role.</P> <P>I'm getting better at it.  I rarely lose agro and MTed for the first time in SoS the other day.  I think the difference for Pallys to be able to tank is to have someone you trust as a healer and I have one in my guild that when she is in the group I don't even look at my health, hit my ward or otherwise worry about it because I know I'll be ok.  I still need to track down my M1 taunts (only have amends at M1) so I have alot of room for improvement in skills (and equipment <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) so I think I'll be ok given my playstyle as a tank.</P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Robbpilot wrote:<BR> <P>I've been investing my AA's into healing lines.  I wonder if most higher level paladins would encourage or discourage that though.  I'm sure I could be a more effective soloer with the points spent elsewhere... and if pick up groups are going to want me to MT most of the time, that only adds to that thought.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm running through the heal lines as well. I'm finding them useful for support in raids, and also have been able to heal when we have no healer class for some of the instances. (Pretty tough to tank and heal at the same time, though).</P> <P>~Hawke<BR></P>

[BigDaddy253]

<DIV>While I love my pally, seems like ever since EoF keeping arrgo is just a 24/7 career.  I feel like on every fight I am on the edge of losing control.  While I'm a casual player, ie I dont raid, I do have a good mix of Legendary/Fabled gear with all M1/Adept 3's.   But for the life of me my taunts get resisted alot (M1 single target M2 group), this seems to cause problems in groups since those are usually moving fast that by the time I get arggo under control I loose it when the group opens up the pain.  Has been real dishearting lately.  Been trying different techniques but havn't found a solid solution (who knows that might be SOE's vision, every fight we have to adapet to hold arggo).  Just yesterday was in a group in MMCatacombs, warlock, assassin, warden, troub, swashy, and me....had amends on warlock and assassin was feeding me hate and I lost arggo to either assassin or warlock by the time the mob was 35~25%, when the troub played the hate song I could hold it better....would still loose it if I did not spam taunts when they came up.  After the group I went back and read through the logs and noticed my taunts (espically my single target) was getting resisted multiple times on the same mob....one mob resisted it 6 times in a row!  I tried all then normal stuff of recasting amends and trying different people but just never got a feel for it.  I know we where dumping out alot of dps...warlock was mainting 1.5k+ but still pre-EoF I feel like I could have held it together better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a better note...I love my dps now.  It might be that I just didnt pay that much attention to it but I have spell and melee crit aa's maxed out and I went down the wrath line but my damage output kicks butt now!  I have no problems hitting 800~850 while tanking still need to check offensive stance.  This might not be that good but hell it made me happy.  Still the arggo thing irrates me, if Im a tank then holding arggo should be no problem right?</DIV><p>Message Edited by BigDaddy253 on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 AM</span>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>i have a lvl70 pally, and a lvl70beserker.. my pally is way better geared than my beserker, beserker still has 3 xegonite pieces on ,around 14masters rest adpt3's. my paladin is fabled and legendary, and almost all masters. my beserker has better avoidance and tanks better and holds agro better than my pally ever thought.. the paladin was my first toon, then i rollled the beserker and seen what a difference.. the beserker is a better tank hands down from my experience, gets and holds aggro easily..  now enter post eof, the guardians that i know and have looked at specs on, are probably the best tank class ingame right now, with beserkers coming in a close second..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i got very frustrated with my paladin pre eof, to the point i rolled a zeker in anticipation that eof would ruin the paladin class even further, and after tanking a simple hof run with both toons, i think the paladins are only meant to assist, possibly to be a 2nd assist..  paladins play a roll, backing a tank that is not uberly geared, the mit transfer and wards rock on a main tank, and allow healers to catch up on healing rather quickly.. guardian as main tank, beserker as main assist, paladin as third assist, dirge, templar mystic, works very effectively, i'm playing on a pvp server so we cant intermingle with freeporters as we're not an exile guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if your playing a paladin and tanking, forget about healing yourself, interupts are way to frequent now.. avoidance is naturally lower on an equally geared paladin compared to a guardian and beserker in relatively equal gear.. and the guardian is even higher than both.. mitigation also, in defensive stance a guardian and beserker will have roughly 500 more mitigation than an equally geared paladin.. this tells me the tanks are meant to be a guardian and a beserker, and with the eof aa's the guardian gets, they are running close with the beserkers as far as dps goes.. the guardians aa's really up thier dps alot, but that is late endgame, because you need alot of aa's to do it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>by no means am i cutting the paladin class down, they are awesome backup's, look at thier aa's, its a given ,but i rolled one to tank and i know they dont tank as well as a guardian and beserker from my experience..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i cant remember, but i know the paladins get an added 20%blocking as an endline aa choice, is this a permanent buff or on a timer? if its a permanent buff, paladins may evolve into equal or better tanks..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wallzak]

<P>It has been a long time since I've been discriminated against because I'm a paly.  Build yourself a reputation of being a good tank, groups will begin to look for you just because our agro control is so good in groups.</P> <P>I do get overlooked from time to time for raids... you can only take so many crusaders on a raid.</P> <P>Other than that... I love my paly... have since day one.  I'm learning everyday how to play him better and better.  Our utility makes us great tanks.  </P> <P>I love in the middle of a fight rezing a falling group member by quickly standing on them, target, cast and tab back to the mob... a 1 second process that allows the healer(s) in the group to focus on keeping me up.</P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDaddy253 wrote:<BR> <DIV>While I love my pally, seems like ever since EoF keeping arrgo is just a 24/7 career.  I feel like on every fight I am on the edge of losing control.  *SNIP*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But for the life of me my taunts get resisted alot (M1 single target M2 group), this seems to cause problems in groups since those are usually moving fast that by the time I get arggo under control I loose it when the group opens up the pain.  </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>They're attempting to fix this with the next LU (30). They're adding in a skill called aggression, where the higher your aggression is, the better your taunts will land on mobs.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The bottom line is that if you want to play 1-2g stuff and tank, either a Guardian or Paladin can do the job fine, and the smaller the group, the better the Paladin is compared to the Guardian.  However, if you want to tank the x4 stuff, roll a Guardian because its a better choice.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No...the bottom line is that they can BOTH tank just fine...only differently. Equally skilled and geared, they both do just fine.

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The bottom line is that if you want to play 1-2g stuff and tank, either a Guardian or Paladin can do the job fine, and the smaller the group, the better the Paladin is compared to the Guardian.  However, if you want to tank the x4 stuff, roll a Guardian because its a better choice.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No...the bottom line is that they can BOTH tank just fine...only differently. Equally skilled and geared, they both do just fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Have you played both a Guardian and Paladin at lvl 70 in raid situations?</P> <P>W</P>

[mortem]

The main problem in my opinion with having a paladin tank is we have worse avoidance and mitigation than a warrior does with similar gear. To get near them in dmg absorbtion we have to cast wards/heals and hope they dont get interrupted during the long cast times.  So in other words to be able to take as many hits we have to blow through our power pool which leaves us with less power for taunts/dps/agg control. So we can tank the same stuff but not be able to stay up for the same period of time.  Until the cast timers get lowered/stop getting interupted so much we will never be on the same playing field.  Also Im sure Wyrd could tell you that even a guard less equipped then we are can take alot more hits and have better aggro control then we do.  All these issues force us into a 2nd or 3rd choice raid tank/OT position. With resists not mattering as much as they used we arent the choice for caster mobs like some people were saying we would be back in the day.  Im guessing SOE wants us to be happy with being support/subDPS on raids and group tanks. By support I mean amends for a dps class like a mage on raids lol.<div></div>

[equinoxio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Robbpilot wrote:<BR> <P>Interesting.  I created a paladin because they have great utility and flexibilty for a tank class.  I expected to solo a lot, and group occasionally.  When I grouped, I expected to fill a support role, doing DPS, off tanking, supplementing heals/wards, and putting aggro reduction on one of the nukers.  Actually, 90% of the time I group, I'm being asked to MT.  Now, what surprises me is that this even happens when berserkers of the same level are in the group.  The current thought seems to be that letting the berserker go full offensive is more effective than having him/her MT.  So, unless a guardian or higher level player is in the group, I'm being asked to MT most of the time.  I don't mind tanking (I have a 70 berserker too) it is just surprising to me that DPS is trumping utility of late.</P> <P>There are times though, when I'm running my LFG tag and groups keep calling for a tank but don't invite me.  I figure... that's their problem if they don't want a crusader to tank for them LOL.</P> <P>I've been investing my AA's into healing lines.  I wonder if most higher level paladins would encourage or discourage that though.  I'm sure I could be a more effective soloer with the points spent elsewhere... and if pick up groups are going to want me to MT most of the time, that only adds to that thought.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've had that group setting once too, I got invited to a HoF group like 2 months ago, where there was 3 lvl 70 bezerkers, and none of them wanted to tank, so I was called to tank LOL.</P> <P>Paladins can tank a lot of stuff, personally I have tanked all that my Guild MT guardian, but I do have a more problems than him to keep up, he has better gear, im a few steps behind him on gear, but there is a difference between the classes, but I dont care, I have fun tanking a Paladin, it's challenging, and I have a great feeling after I tank something hard, like when I tanked Vyemm, it was great to be able to do that. As a paladins you will see like 10 billion more paladins in your server, some are better, some are around the same as you, some are bad or noobs, the last ones are the ones that gives us paladins bad rep, but if you tank your way in different groups you can get a better rep as a tank, and get your chance for tanking.</P> <P>Paladins are good tanks, we wont, and I dont care to, tank as a Guardians, we have different roles, different styles.</P> <P>Robb, I went with Hero/Heal line, the heal line helps me be able to heal a bit more with less power usage, my M2 Fervent Aid cost 124 power IIRC, less than my ward now, and my ward is now 2 out of the 5 seconds faster on recast, and the 5 min less in LoH recast is really good imo for tanking, since we need to heal and ward to help our healers to keep us up.</P>

[Rob89]

<P>The paladin is still the worst and will always be the worst plate tank.</P> <P>A paladin are kickass in mage grps or support for the MT.. A paladin arent good enough for MA , but thats my personal opinion.</P> <P>Paladins take hard hits and got bad avoidance and parry etc. Very bad tank CA and so on.</P> <P> </P> <P>A Paladin CAN raidtank, but it isnt fun to do it and its kinda hard aswell. Everything is so much easier with zerker or guaridan, even a Shadowknight beats paldins now.</P> <P> </P> <P>My oppinion, i stopped play paladin becouse it isnt funny at all.</P>

[Umeil]

<P>Paladins pretty much suck now especially in the PvP world.</P> <P> </P> <P>PvE pally are ok but not one of the better classes as a tank class they are not much more than a secondary class to a main line tank ( zerker or guardian)</P> <P> </P> <P>Most Pally on PvP servers seem to have all left to Freeport side as shadowknights are way better now since release of EoF sad as they a nice class to play. But mine is now basically retired and only used for heling raids out when needed.</P> <P> </P> <P>Dont recomend anyone to roll a pally as once you hit upper 60's to 70 you will get very disapointed with the pally.</P>

[Rarlin]

I've had a Paladin since I began playing and love the class.  The biggest problem that I've found with Paladins is that because of their abundance, it is sometimes very easy to run into several Paladins that play the class poorly (give it a bad name).<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rarlin wrote:<BR>I've had a Paladin since I began playing and love the class.  The biggest problem that I've found with Paladins is that because of their abundance, it is sometimes very easy to run into several Paladins that play the class poorly (give it a bad name).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE. I had always thought that I was 'upper mediocre' at best, but after having run into some paladins with the "I'm what everyone should strive to be" mentality, I found that I tanked better, healed better, and DPS'd better than they did - and often 2 or 3 of them at the same time.</P> <P>A lot of people pick the paladin class thinking that we're so flexible, it's like a 'group in a bag', since we can do a bit of everything. Unfortunately, it's some of those players that give us the bad rep as well.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[Sonaht]

<div></div>I made a Fae Pally and my husband made an Ogre Guard. We didn't considered how a duo would work at the time, just picked classes that fit in with the other guildies' Faes (he is one of those contrarians... if everyone else is going to be a Fae, then he has to be an Ogre.) The past few days have been kind of slow so  we have gone out as a duo or with a Conj and it's been super. I have tried to balance my Pally overall but with a lean towards healing, and put together with his mitigation we find that we do quite well.  I have decided to go the AA lines that use a hammer and symbol and so far I'm really happy with that too. Since we are both plate classes there is some conflict as far as who gets what Mastercrafted, so I concentrate on my weapon and symbol adding jewelry next and generally use quested armor as it comes along. I put my Master spell money into my big single heal and did Master II on my ward. I really like being able to shift emphasis instantly, from healer to tank to dealing damage, to suit any situation. Sure I can see some limitations when it comes to not being the top at any one thing but that isn't what I'm after, so I have made my choices broadly.  In small groups I am finding that I much prefer my Pally to my Templar, swapping the massive healing for more in the way of damage and nicer knockbacks/stuns. The biggest negative point I see is that the horse AA line is pretty much anathema to Fae Pallys since they can't glide while mounted.I am very pleased with my Pally and look forward to seeing how I do in many different grouping combinations. I totally agree about players who give the class a bad rep...but I particularly don't care for the whiners. Our mains went out with a Pally from another guild the other day and since he was 70 and our usual tank (Zerker) was 67 we had him MT. Not only did he play poorly (the repair bill was bad enough) but he whined incessantly about this nerf and that nerf and EQ1. I think if he would have taken a break from his self-pity party long enough to learn to play his class the way it now stands he'd be a lot better off than moaning about the "good ol' days" and proving how "right" he was by clinging to outdated methods that didn't make sense anymore. Trust me peeps, the rest of the group really doesn't care about how great that EQ1 character *was*! Neither does it inspire confidence when the MT constantly refers to his Pally as a POS he'd really rather not be playing...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sonaht on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[Faelgalad]

<P>I love my Paladin, it is my first char. </P> <P>But I dislike the EoF Achivement. There is nothing in for me that helps me. </P> <P>Healing with the Interrups in the first row is worthless for tanking. </P> <P>The Damage increase is to low to be worthwhile in the Achivement. </P> <P>In the moment, Paladins are neither defensiv nor offensiv and far away from </P> <P>the "excel in martial prowess" that is promised by SOE. </P> <P> </P> <P>The special skills (52, 55, 58, 65) are with the exception of Sigil "mediocre" in a negativ sense. </P> <P>- Consecrate doesn't scale and sucks to much power. </P> <P>- Divine Favor is, sorry, no favor, no use for that. The stiffle takes us out of action and we die. </P> <P>- Castigate is very situational. Waiting for imparements and only take away one of each. Taking all gone and getting Damage for each imparement would be a real thing and not unbalanced, seeing the long recast. </P> <P> </P> <P>KoS Achivement needs a fix. </P> <P> </P> <P>Sadly Paladins loose much from T5 to T6 and more to T7 in scaling of Damage and Mitigation. </P> <P>I had no Problems with T5 Epics, a bit more with T6 and T7 is a pain in the ... </P> <P>Even the Trashmobs in Labor of Vyrmm hitting me with their autoattack for up to 3000 damage. </P> <P>In group play, I can do everything, except Nizara and Nek3. For a Paladin Level 1-50 the problems are not to see that awaits you with level 51+</P> <P> </P> <P>The only niche a Paladin really owns is in Groups less than 4 players. The small group play. But is this worthwhile playing`? Is there any reward playing with 3 people?</P> <P> </P> <P>In my opinion, Paladins need a real think about, to bring them in a consistent design. To much skills that don't bring a benefit. To much  AA-Skills that don't bring us enough. Specialskills not worth taking. But the Dev's just play clone toon paladins and don't see the real problem. We need to become either more offensiv or defensiv. Either the scounge of evil or the other Variant, the bastion, the rock in the waves of evil guys splashing on the shore. </P> <P><BR>I miss the feeling that comes with the Title Paladin. Holy men, bastions of faith, shining beacons of courage, knightly fighters against evil. With the name Paladin I don't think about Fighters who can't withstand attacks and who need's a marathon to kill something.  I miss the feeling of my Diablo 2 Paladin, not brute force of a Barbarian, but deadly finess.</P> <P>All Paladin's I know play a second tank, all love their Paladin, but are sad how easily the other tanks do thinks. </P><p>Message Edited by Lynassihr on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

[Lord_Quaymar]

Paladins are awesome...when played like a Paladin instead of a Guardian or any other class.

[Rast]

<P>think of it like this, in the original design of the game (what was advertised) Paladins couldn't wear vanguard armor, that was reserved for guardians (zerkers nor templars could either).  The heaviest of the armors was going to be reserved for guardian only.</P> <P>I personally think the issues with EQ2 can't be fixed, I think they are core to the very game concept.  They hung their hat on an archtype system instead of making distinct classes.  They attempted to pigeonhole every class in the game into specific categories and lo and behold, it's broken.  Not a surprise.  I think they would have been better served that instead of automatically granting further lines to the players, make the players specialize out which lines they would take.  So instead of getting 15 different ward spells (caution, exagerated number for argument sake), you would get one that you could spend points on to improve.  For each point put into it, you would be able to gain a tier in it.  This would let those who wanted to specialize and those who wanted to be generalists be so.  I would also get rid of this silly adept I, appIV crap and simply title them out as a skill level (skill level 1-4 is apprentice, skill level 5-8 is adept, skill level 9 is junior master and 10 is master as a crude example).  And then you could have a paladin who masters in defensive arts, but is weak DPS and you could have a guardian who is weak defense but a master at DPS.  But that is impossible when you attempt to pigeon hole a class as x style, aka archtypes.</P> <P>This is just to me (and other's opinions will of course vary) but...</P> <P>A paladin should be holy melee warrior, not a nuker.  We should be more geared around melee combat than range or spells.  As a hybrid, our spells should be augments to our melee skill and not direct damage oriented.  Our heals should be exceptionally limited and more group oriented (group ward, group heal, single target LoH only).  We should be an upfront and personal fighter, taking our fight to the enemy, not standing back and waiting for it to come to us. </P>

[SpyrerTheFirst]

You guys who are saying Guardians hold better agro, i seriously don't know what your doing wrong. In a group situation i hardly even need to taunt to keep agro, and on a raid i keep taunting and only lose agro when the wizards start chaincasting their highest hits and a Guardian would lose agro on that too, it's all about groupsetup for a pally tank on a raid, get yourself a warlock/Wizard and a Dirge and your set for all your agro needs. Paladins are the KINGS of agro control with all the new taunt resists.Back to topicI love playing my paladin, currently at 70/82 i have tanked all of the instanced raid-mobs pre-eof. no problems at all. My favorite thing with the paladin is going the fact that i can duo with any good DPS class stuff like nest, SoS, Vaults etc. AA lines:Sta 4/4/8 Wis 4/4/8/1 Int 4/4/8Wrath 5/3/5/5/2 Support 0/3/5 Hero 4 (going to be 5/5/5/5/1 when i get high enough AAs)<div></div>

[Naubeta]

I'm enjoying my paladin at lvl 32.Can I expect things to go downhill?<div></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%"> You guys who are saying Guardians hold better agro, i seriously don't know what your doing wrong. <hr size="2" width="100%">The problem we have in the paladin community is that we cannot agree on what  problems and deficiencies we have.   This does 2 things.  It makes us look like whiners and it diminishes dev focus on what our true ailments are. Not calling anybody out, but geesh there are complaints about everything.  Makes us hard to take seriously and clouds the real issues. And I agree with you 100%, aggro is a total non issue.  If a paladin can't hold aggro, deal with memwipe mobs etc, it is because he sucks or his group/ raid composition sucks.  Aggro is black and white, you can either handle it, or you cannot.  Who gives a crap if someone else can do it with a little less button spamming.  <div></div>

[TheBu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ralcing wrote:<BR>     Looking for opinions what everyone's thoughts is on the Paladin. Are u enjoying? sad of dislike the paladin?<BR> <P>Message Edited by Ralcing on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dislike the fact i have to lvl my range skill for my bow... Arg <BR>i dislike the lack of aa line for "me a tank"</P> <P>I like amends, rez, heals, gift of armor and the avoidance spells </P>

[Rast]

<P>I have NO problems with agro when amends works (which it should more consistantly now) and I rarely ever have to use my rescue or my sigil to keep it either.</P> <P>Our real issue is the non scalablity of our abilities against raid targets.  We do ok DPS for a defensive tank.  We are excellent for solo, duo and small group play.  But it is painfully obvious from data recently presented that we have some major defiencies in regards to our ability to be effective in tanking raid level content.</P>

[L4nc]

The main reason no one can agree on what needs to be fixed with Paladins is that we can be build several ways. Tank, DPS, Healer. The DPS and Healer functions of course you are subpar at and maintain sub-par tanking abilities. You can build your Paladin as a Tank and have one of the best tank classes in the game. Our aggro control is the best and with the Mit curve now our mit is comparable to everyone elses. Now with our AA giving us an additional 24% to our shield effectiveness we can have an extremely high avoidance as well. I am just a level or two away from having this but as MT for a raid even without this ability I have 62.6% Mit and 60% avoidance with 12k health and 7k power. Since we hold aggro the best, the raid can DPS harder and faster raising the overal DPS of the fight and making them shorter fights. Long and short of it is, we are not guardians, don't compare us to them as our tanking styles are apples and oranges. Most people that have problems raid tanking as a paladin just don't know the kind of group setup you use for the MT group.

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">The main reason no one can agree on what needs to be fixed with Paladins is that we can be build several ways. Tank, DPS, Healer. The DPS and Healer functions of course you are subpar at and maintain sub-par tanking abilities. You can build your Paladin as a Tank and have one of the best tank classes in the game. Our aggro control is the best and with the Mit curve now our mit is comparable to everyone elses. Now with our AA giving us an additional 24% to our shield effectiveness we can have an extremely high avoidance as well. I am just a level or two away from having this but as MT for a raid even without this ability I have 62.6% Mit and 60% avoidance with 12k health and 7k power. Since we hold aggro the best, the raid can DPS harder and faster raising the overal DPS of the fight and making them shorter fights. Long and short of it is, we are not guardians, don't compare us to them as our tanking styles are apples and oranges. Most people that have problems raid tanking as a paladin just don't know the kind of group setup you use for the MT group. <hr size="2" width="100%">When I MT I have 63% mit, never less than 63% avoidance, and 13.5-14k health.  I will receive way more damage than a guardian who is subpar in all three.  So if you need a tank for Tarinax or Vyemm, pally is fine.  But no one is beating world first content or anything serious in EoF with a paladin tank.  The diff between us and guardians is huge, it is indeed apples and oranges.   To paraphrase Chris Rock, of course a paladin A student can do pretty well, but what about all the C students?  Meanwhile, a guardian C student is President of the United States! <div></div>

[L4nc]

<DIV>WOW whine we didn't kill the mob first. You know why, we were too busy complaining on the forums about sucking everyone listened to us and grabbed the first Guard they found. Do Guards take less damage than us? Yes because they have abilities for it. And I am going to say this and I know people are going to complain about it, but I can heal myself. And yes you can get off plenty of heals during a raid boss fight. Easily negating what a guard can soak up. Whe you go to someone and say "Man we suck!" do you think they are going to put you infront of that world first mob? No. You just told them a Guard was better. If your healers have problems keeping you alive you might need to train them better. It's a state of progression. First people were happy because they took down Vyemm "whoo hoo First kil!!! YAYAYA" And they wouldn'y have let a Pally stand there. Then it was Villucidae, Venekor, Tarinax blah blah Now every says " Oh well if you want to tank those sure a palladin is great, but I found this once spawning every year at midnight lvl 80 X4, I wouldn't want to put a Paladin there better get a Guard." The pure fact is we can tnk anything in the game if given half a shot, but when it's crunch time do you give the job to the guy that says " I CANDO IT BRING IT" or the guy that's over in the corner saying "Man I suck I can't tank anything"</DIV>

[Wallzak]

<P>Just a note on the 'training your healer' comment.</P> <P>I have a friend who heals for me 70% of the time, lvl 70 temp... and he's commented on this very thing... healing a paly is different, and he does a very good job of keeping me alive.</P> <P>I have done Valdoon with him as the only healer, we died a few times... mostly because of bad pulls... and he solo'ed healed me better than two healers in the same zone on a different occasion who aren't used to Paly's.</P> <P>So the question is... how are we different than Guards in healling... he obviously is doing something different than normal to keep me up.  When he gets home after christmas I will have to push him for more details.</P>

[Rast]

<P>For starters, I honestly believe that the templars heals were designed with a paladin in mind.  They have the hardest hitting heals out there and we are the hardest hit plate tank there is.  The damage we take seems to play right to the templars strength of reactives.  </P> <P>The one templar I have in my guild whom is a dedicated healer (every toon she has but one is a healer and that one is a pally <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), I can sit back and never even once concern myself with my ward or my health, she simply keeps me on my feet.  The fury I group with alot has alot of trouble with Jal as a tank and as she said, I simply take too much damage and the HoTs take too long to work on me, so I have to throw a ward in every now and then to give her heals time to catch up on me.</P> <P>Now, I'm not the best geared Pally out there (adp Is and mastercrafted/treasured armor, blade of the bixies and dragonscale kite shield) mainly because I don't currently raid (much, if at all) due to IRL time restrictions so most of my comments are coming from my experience in groups.</P> <P>but in short, I've found the best friend of any tank is a healer he/she can trust.  Without that, no tank will be effective, the paladin least of all.</P>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">WOW whine we didn't kill the mob first. You know why, we were too busy complaining on the forums about sucking everyone listened to us and grabbed the first Guard they found. Do Guards take less damage than us? Yes because they have abilities for it. And I am going to say this and I know people are going to complain about it, but I can heal myself. And yes you can get off plenty of heals during a raid boss fight. Easily negating what a guard can soak up. Whe you go to someone and say "Man we suck!" do you think they are going to put you infront of that world first mob? No. You just told them a Guard was better. If your healers have problems keeping you alive you might need to train them better. It's a state of progression. First people were happy because they took down Vyemm "whoo hoo First kil!!! YAYAYA" And they wouldn'y have let a Pally stand there. Then it was Villucidae, Venekor, Tarinax blah blah Now every says " Oh well if you want to tank those sure a palladin is great, but I found this once spawning every year at midnight lvl 80 X4, I wouldn't want to put a Paladin there better get a Guard." The pure fact is we can tnk anything in the game if given half a shot, but when it's crunch time do you give the job to the guy that says " I CANDO IT BRING IT" or the guy that's over in the corner saying "Man I suck I can't tank anything" <hr size="2" width="100%">Maybe we're too good and they should nerf us? <div></div>

[L4nc]

<DIV>hahaha that's what I love about these forums. Everyone cries about being broken and how the devs need to fix them right now, but the moment someone speaks up and says, "you know what? I really like my class and I enjoy playing it" everyone jumps them like a rabid dog. Tell you what if you are not happy with your class and have been whining about being a guardian since luanch and SOE hasn't changed to make Paladins play exactly like Guardians I think they are trying to tell you nothing is wrong on their side maybe you should stop looking at the screen for why you can't play your class well. I will say what many others have. If you don't like a Pally and think Guards are that much better go roll a Guard. And get behind the other 9000 that made one to raid tank and are sitting out in the cold because the raids already have their tanks.</DIV>

[Rast]

<P>I don't know.  The data seems to go in support against you Lancer.  There is a player here (Wyrd) who has both a lvl 70 guard and a lvl 70 pally who took some very interesting parses that collaberate those who are complaining.</P> <P>I like my paladin, but then I rarely raid (and so far only for HQs).  No other class keeps my attention, but that doesn't mean the class doesn't need tweaked to be better in certain areas.  The class's abilities do not scale well to the epic content, that doesn't mean the idea isn't sound, just not quite perfect.</P> <P>Part of it is that we have to train healers to deal with the spike damage we take more of than other plate tanks (much like monks/brusiers have to do the same).  We are a different beast, I'll concur with that and that is what I like about the Paladin, but we were promised to be tanks and that is what I rolled my Pally to be.  And the data is in, against the same mob with the exact same raid (other than switching out the pally for the guard) the Pally took more than 30k more in damage and couldn't finish the encounter over 3 tries while the guard finished it first try.</P> <P>Seems pretty evident to me that there are issues whether some here want to acknowledge them or not.</P>

[L4nc]

<DIV>you are comparing apples to oranges like that. Whas the DPS the exact same for the raid during the whole fight, Do they have the Exact same gear on, Did someone go afk in the middle of the fight to go get coffee? Raiding with a Pally is different than with a guard you can't go into a zone and fight the mob one way and come back the next week and expect the numbers to be the same. All it takes is someone backing off of DPS for a bit or someone not landing debuffs for a fight to completely change. I know I will take more damage than a guard, I also know I can heal myself more than a guard. Guards are meant to absorb damage, that's why they carry like 5 tower sheilds on them. But the fact remains I have not seen a fight a guard could do that a Paladin couldn't.</DIV>

[Rast]

<P>go look at the data yourself.  It is here on the pally boards.</P> <P>Same player (Wyrd was both the pally and the guard, rest of raid remained the same) and the pally took 30k more damage over the course of the encounter on fewer hits.  Both had approximately the same base mit, the same raid buffed HPs.  To me the data screams an issue and not that paladins aren't tanks, we just need some tweaks to allow us to compete.  And it seems to be mainly in the scaling effect of things like our wards.  Perhaps if they were to ward a % of Max HPs instead of a fixed amount it would be better.  I don't know what that % would be to be honest, but to throw out some random pull out of the [Removed for Content] numbers, perhaps the lvl 66 ward at m1 wards against 20% (18% at adp3, 15% at adp1, 12% at appIV, etc) of the current health.  For someone out solo, that would be what? A 1200 HP ward, +/- 200.  But on a raid buffed pally, that same ward would be a ~2400 hp ward, allowing for that scaling effect that is currently missing to our abilities.  Of course it would need to be tweaked for a solid final number set that is both balanced and scalable.</P> <P>I do not WANT to be a guardian, if I did, I would have rolled one (and I did actually once, and I hated it).  But I do want to be reasonably compariable as a raid option without being turned into a healer (which if I wanted to be a healer, i would have rolled a templar)</P>

[RBent72]

<DIV>I think the original question asked what I thought of the Paladin, and if I liked playing one.  Like others on this forum, I've played a Paladin since the day the game came out, and I have to say, I really enjoy it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've largely avoided posting on the Paladin boards because it feels a lot like some kind of pathetic group act of self-pity.  The constant comparisons to Guardians, the endless rants of whether we are good raid tanks, and mostly a whole lot of what we can't do.  Who needs it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, the Paladin class isn't for everybody.  Like every other class it has it's problems, and you will probably never be the best class when it comes to healing, buffing, or dps, and yeah, it hurts, but all things being equal, Guards can usually tank raid mobs better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I enjoy the versatility of our class, we can do a little of everything.  Take a look at people trying to maximize one aspect of the Pally, there's a good variety of people turning their toon into a healer, a dpser, a tank.  You can play it how you want, in the way that works for you.  It wasn't always easy, but I really feel that my Paladin is the most fun now, and that the AAs I've chosen make him the most fun for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess what I'm saying is, roll a Paladin and try it for yourself, it doesn't take that long to level up a ways.  If you feel a Guard or Zerker would be better for you, then go for it.  Whatever you do, don't roll a Paladin and try to play it like something it isn't, you won't be happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/steps off soapbox</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Chemos Andon</DIV> <DIV>70 Paladin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>