Post your thoughts

[Nevar]

<DIV> <P><FONT size=1>The Paladin is a very useful tool in almost anything. We can do everything half way decent ( heal, support, tank, dps ) but nothing we do is spectacular. What I mean by this is we are a hybrid class. A class that can do pretty much everything but nothing all that well in comparison to someone who focuses on it, ex Guard is the tank, thats all they do is get beat on. I am fine with this. I have never had a problem with it until AAs were introduced. I was hoping that our AA lines would give us a really good clear cut line for what ever path the paladin wants to tank. If he wants to be a battle cleric then he would have a line. If he wants to support the tank be a line for that. If he happens to be MT for whatever kind of guild they their would be a really good line for it. Same for dps good line for it. But as most paladins know this has not happened. Each line leaves us in the same spot we started at. Thrown in the middle. In the middle isnt fun as most pallys will agree with me. Our class just isnt fun anymore ( My opinion ) because we have had little change in such a long period of time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I have a few ideas for each line and I thought I would lay down a few ideas and am open to everyone voicing their opinions on what they think.</FONT></P><U> <P><FONT size=1>DPS</FONT></P></U> <P><FONT size=1>First off im not asking to be an assassin here id just like a small <U>NOTICABLE</U> increase.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>1. For the Wraths tree I would totally change it around. All the Aes you gave us +25% to should just be 1 AA. For the rest I would have to say reduce recast of our nukes. That combined with the 25% would give us a decent boost. Not much but a decent boost. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>2. Now for the final one in this line. I would like for it to be +10-15% spell dmg per spell.</FONT></P><U> <P><FONT size=1>Support</FONT></P></U> <P><FONT size=1>I am actually ok with our support line. I honestly think its our best line. The + to proc chance rocks and the group armament is good. But I wish you would allow fighters to benefit from this aswell. The Cure id like to have physical ailments to be cure aswell. But all in all if nothing happens to the support line I wouldnt be upset. Because like I said i think its good.</FONT></P><U> <P><FONT size=1>TANK!</FONT></P></U> <P><FONT size=1>Going to be nice on this one cause this tends to get me deleted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>1. I think righteous condemnation should have a small ward component to it aswell. Maybe up to 350. The AA could increase both the heal and the ward amount. 222 on the heal and 350 on the ward I think would be ok.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>2. The sigil AA I like leave that lone imo.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>3. The Hp one isnt bad I dont guess maybe a bit more added to it. Give it a + to sta aswell. Up to 30 at most would be cool.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>4. The Group taunt AA is trash. Righteousness doesnt need to be messed with instead I think you should allow Amends to be able to be cast cross raid. Not over powering but would let you pick a good target for it without having to change your group to a less optimal setting to give you more hate.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>5. The plus block thing isnt bad for our final AA. I dont mind it actually with how avoid and mit work these days. So ill leave that to the community to add imput on. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I would like Paladins to comment on this and give positive feedback. I know I can be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but keep this positive and maybe we can get looked at and possibly get a change. Keep the ideas comming.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Demoley]

Couldnt have said it better, only thing i really have to add is we could use some kind of tempory mit buff, 30 seconds add 1k mit, that would help a ton in a raid situation, allow us to take a bit more damage while the mob is debuffed. Other than that very good post<div></div>

[Goejun]

You have resumed most of what I think. Seeing the work they have done on SK and nothing for us Paly since a long time, i'm convinced that SOE is working on something for paly. Maybe i'm dreaming but most Paly (high level) are sad with their class. I still need 100 AA to see the effect of more heal/AE dps on my class from EOF but I feel less than a tank after each addon. And the last time I had great fun was with the  3 new spells  from KOS because those spells need some timing to us well or are very situational.Have faith in SOE, that's what is left to paly and paly are  good at that. <div></div>

[Ai yo]

<DIV>1) I am wondering why there isn`t a power reduce for our ward spell - enchance devotion.. only reuse timer down...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)Righteous <FONT size=1>condemnation should be healing & warding like 300+ (pls note we getting hit hard at times)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>3)The final blocking skill enchancement is nice but to have another 6% more is not overpowered btw as i compare myself with warriors i am short like abt 3-5% avoidance after i went down hero line. They have more mit & mit buff but we have more ressist & that make it abit more even cos atm we r like quite a distance away <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Lastly dont think a mit buff on us make us look like pally hehe </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Just a though</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Lampa</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Memento Mori</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[DarkRanger77]

<div></div>I dunno I hate these omg paladins need changes stuff but you have a point. There could be some small changes but honestly it all adds up. With my set up and this comes from a paladin who isnt half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] works wonders. I have a strong setup with tons of int and I don't wear cloth armor like a [Removed for Content]. I do 1k dps at least on a lot of fights if my frickin guild doesnt beat me to it. Long fights I fall behind. Im happy with my dps, tanking I'm a half beaten tank, we can't tank better then guardians and zerkers so dont frickin do it. One thing Itook.....look at that AA taunt for our group taunt, it's part of wraths not the Hero line. It's not meant to do wonders for your tanking, its to get more damage in. Paladins who debuff before hitting it do a lot more damage then the rest of the paladins. We may need a change but it's not as bad as it looks is all im saying. Yes change it I would honestly love to see clearly defined lines of where you are in your raid force. Go support, go dps, go tank not this half crap line that just kinda boosts stuff. I can see your point with dps especially because I dps I said screw tanking on this character, so honestly from this stand point yes please either make me a support or dps give me that chance. I would love to be able to choose. I almost went with the mit buff then I realized it was a total peice of crap. I'm sorry but eof mobs dont hit with huge crushing aoes like kos did, they hit with magic and disease and things of that sort so mit is useless for scouts and healers and mages in my group. It kidna does suck when I look at the SK AA's, they got a really really really good end of the deal on crusaders.<div></div><p>Message Edited by DarkRanger77 on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 AM</span>

[rya]

<P>Some random thoughts on class improvements...</P> <P> - heal + ward for Righteous Condemantion line as suggested by Itoock or it can be heal + temp increase in max health</P> <P> - able cast amend cross group in raid will be awesome</P> <P> - having a self mitigation buff, like allowing us benefit from our own group armament or allow us to cast the Pledge of Armament line on ourself with reduced penalty</P> <P> - other than the increase in damage for AE that we are having now, have AAs that reduced the recast of our single target CA/Spell like Devout Strike line (yes, relic.. but...), Refusal of Conviction line (relic again.. but...), Valorous Dash line, Extinguish Will line etc.</P> <P> - add a hate component to our Blocking Mastery, like increase XXX in threat whenever we block</P> <P> </P>

[JarredDarque]

<P>I disagree with giving us a temporary mitigation buff.  that is the Warrior thing.   I would more prefer an AA that gives us a little bit of permanent mitigation..yes, like the warriors have.</P> <P>But with the changes to mit and avoid, I really wouldnt know if i wanted to waste many AAs on something like that.  </P> <P>If I remember all teh number crunching,  optimal gear setup as a raid tank should put you at 63% mitigation and 63% avoidance, that seems to be the sweet spot for plate tanks rightnow,  not TOOOO hard to get, and any additions to mit above that dont seem to add much %,  same with avoidance,  and it is reasonably attainable in raid lvl gear (no, I cant achieve either...yet...but I am getting closer,  about 62% on mit and 52% on avoid,   respecing my AAs for tank stats should put me cloer to 59% avoid)</P> <P> </P> <P>I honsetly feel that for DPS, something along the lines of the warriors buckler reversal, and double attack lines would be nice.  Part of the problems we suffer in our AA lines, is that we have plenty that inc our DPS,  we have the haste AA, the melee crit,  the spell crit, the AOE proc..  the only problem is that we, as crusaders, require so much more in the way of differant stats and gear than ANY OTHER class, that in order to optimize our dps near as much as the other tank classes (excluding SKs)  we need another 16 AAsin the KOS lines</P> <P>For DPS purposes, I would prefer that in the EoF lines, we had some form of skill to allow us to wield a 2H like a 1H..i.e.,  with a shield or empty offhand, or a serious increase in proc rate...read 100% proc rate when you add everything up (not counting adornments,  I just mean from our own spells and AAs).  I think all told, right now,  I have 50% chance of SOMETHING proccin...AOE, our two proc spells, and my weapon.</P> <P>For how it appears that SOE has planned for us, we are going to become like Pallies in WoW...secondary healers, and I have been such since EoF in Castle Mistmoore groups and on raids.  on raids I have just been sitting in the back chain casting heals and wards with a few bow shots in between on ranged fights,  or auto attack on melee fights to conserve power for all the healing.   I may be going down the heal lines out of necesity right now.   I would really not mind thuogh if the heal line was taken out and replaced with something else.  I dont WANT people to think of me as just another plate healer class.  especially since we get an option of a cure.</P> <P>So..basically.</P> <P>I would like to see more tankability increases in the Hero line.  I like the idea of a 10-15% increase in ALL spell damage as a final ability in wrath line.  The support line does have its uses.  The heal line, I dont like what it makes other classes think of us.   I would even rather if the heal line, or a 5th line, would grant us more useful group buffs, like giving our defensive stance a group wipe divine and magic resist.. and mob debuffs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, for the KOS lines, I would like to see our weapon specific AAs become more useful than what they are.  I know the zerkers have got some serious DPS increaes or mob debuffs attatched to theirs.</P>

[PolarBear77]

<DIV>I'll post alittle overview here on what i have noticed / seen  on our aa's </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Note:</STRONG> (comes from a tanking paladins point of view)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Heal Line</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>As a whole i think you 1/2 way adressed some of the problems we have with our class in that reguard. Glad to see you reduced those casting timers abit but they need just a tad bit more. I have 3 points into Enhance Fervent Aid and i still get interrupted like i did without it. I think it would be golden if it was reduced to 1 sec cast time so .2 instead of .1 on the cast timers. Same with the group heal needs to knock it down to like 1.5 sec casting time. As far as the other things in the line the LoH timer is nice the recast reduce on Reverent Sacrament is worthless just like the ability it's self. If anythign that there should reduce that cast timer  by like 2 secs b/c a 3 sec casting timer is just way to long to even make this 1/2 way useful. The end heal i guess is fine long casting timer on it to but ehhhh not gunna matter now if you have this b/c your a battle preist by now anyway. Not a bad line at all with a few twinks it be a good one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Support Line</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>As stated above this is by far you best line that you came out with the only thing i can think of to make this line outstanding is instead of reducing the recast on Intercede maybe a damage reducer on it EX: reduces damage of the attack by ol' lets say 5% per point maxing out at 25% less damage taken when you use that ability that would make it alot better. Anyone in there right mind isn't gunna try and chain intercede on the tank if they want to live. The only other thing i see in this line would be the Mit to group members. This should affect fighters. The sk's get a Self mit buff  i do believe we should to and this would be perfect way to give it to us. maxing it our should give us 350 mit just like the SK's get in theres. Besides those i think that line is a good one for the Paladin that wants to play support. All in all a strong line great job on this one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Wrathe Line</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This one i have maxed atm have seen a few things that could be adjusted to makes this line another great one ot have. First off instead of Doom Judgement as a choice (a lvl 35 weak aoe witha 5 min recast) make it Enhance Refusal of Conviction just like the other 5% per point maxing to 25%.  I personally like the added % on our AoE's they make up alot of dps anyway and give us unmatched AoE aggro. Smite Evil is not a bad ability i would like to see this stay b/c so far the only raid mobs i  have seen that this doesn't affect is the monks in Labs and one of the Dragons in PoS (Which you all know is a t6 and [Removed for Content] t7 zone). With the few minor adjustments has the potental to be a outstanding line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Hero Line </U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>This line here needs some work done with it. Itoocks idea of the ward on Righteous Condemnation is absoulty brilliant. I for one would love to have that. On to the wisdom buff this one to me looks like the worst one in the lot. It either should get up'ed to doubling the amount of wisdom (b/c 25 wisdom is blehhh) that or it should add Sta on to the buff idk like 8-10 points of Sta per point. Next is the Enhanced verison of our self HP buff which i think is  great idea but just needs a tab bit more added on to it from 12% per point to 15% would make this one ownage. Next on the list is the Enhanced Sigil of Heroism this one is a great one don't touch it at all. Then comes the end ability the increase to blocking isn't bad consdiering now there is a point where Avoid is > Mit now. and it will scale with better shields we get not to metion block is the ONLY avoid check that doesn't scale down with the lvl of  mob.  With the right fixes in this line it will be the line of choice of any true Paladin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all still needs alittle work just some few minor adjustments here and there to make the overall tree a good one. With the adjustments me and others suggested would def put us on par with the SK tree and other tanks alike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by PolarBear77 on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:03 AM</span>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nevarer wrote:<div> <p><font size="1">The Paladin is a very useful tool in almost anything. We can do everything half way decent ( heal, support, tank, dps ) but nothing we do is spectacular. What I mean by this is we are a hybrid class. A class that can do pretty much everything but nothing all that well in comparison to someone who focuses on it, ex Guard is the tank, thats all they do is get beat on. I am fine with this. I have never had a problem with it until AAs were introduced. I was hoping that our AA lines would give us a really good clear cut line for what ever path the paladin wants to tank. If he wants to be a battle cleric then he would have a line. If he wants to support the tank be a line for that. If he happens to be MT for whatever kind of guild they their would be a really good line for it. Same for dps good line for it. But as most paladins know this has not happened. Each line leaves us in the same spot we started at. Thrown in the middle. In the middle isnt fun as most pallys will agree with me. Our class just isnt fun anymore ( My opinion ) because we have had little change in such a long period of time.</font></p> <p><font size="1">I have a few ideas for each line and I thought I would lay down a few ideas and am open to everyone voicing their opinions on what they think.</font></p><u> <p><font size="1">DPS</font></p></u> <p><font size="1">First off im not asking to be an assassin here id just like a small <u>NOTICABLE</u> increase.</font></p> <p><font size="1">1. For the Wraths tree I would totally change it around. All the Aes you gave us +25% to should just be 1 AA. For the rest I would have to say reduce recast of our nukes. That combined with the 25% would give us a decent boost. Not much but a decent boost.  <font color="#ff3333">Well, I'd say that with relic legs we have a shortened recast of our nuke (+str line end ability)  Though you won't wear'em anymore, it is changing equipment for nuking. But i like the idea of shortening the reuse timers of our other damage spells, especially the ones against undead, cause this is where we shine when dpsing. Endline ability is fine imho, but as stated, doom judgement and, imho, consecrate are the worst abilities in wrath line. I'd like to see a good mix between single damage and aoe-damage. Brimstone is placed wrong, cause it's closed encounter ae....not worth the improvement.</font> </font></p> <p><font size="1">2. Now for the final one in this line. I would like for it to be +10-15% spell dmg per spell. <font color="#ff0000">Nice idea, but imho a bit overpowered, i'd say 5% damage and 5% recast are an alternative, but don't want to play with numbers, just an idea.</font></font></p><u> <p><font size="1">Support</font></p></u> <p><font size="1">I am actually ok with our support line. I honestly think its our best line. The + to proc chance rocks and the group armament is good. But I wish you would allow fighters to benefit from this aswell. The Cure id like to have physical ailments to be cure aswell. But all in all if nothing happens to the support line I wouldnt be upset. Because like I said i think its good. <font color="#ff3300">Wouldn't even mind to spend a point in this, but that's cause I'm a tank, depends on playstyle of the paladin.</font></font></p><u> <p><font size="1">TANK!</font></p></u> <p><font size="1">Going to be nice on this one cause this tends to get me deleted.</font></p> <p><font size="1">1. I think righteous condemnation should have a small ward component to it aswell. Maybe up to 350. The AA could increase both the heal and the ward amount. 222 on the heal and 350 on the ward I think would be ok. <font color="#ff3300">Nice idea, though there will be some problems: the stacking of wards and so on....you know? triple the amount of the heal and everything is fine, ward won't do anything useful in raids, the heal will.</font></font></p> <p><font size="1">2. The sigil AA I like leave that lone imo.</font></p> <p><font size="1">3. The Hp one isnt bad I dont guess maybe a bit more added to it. Give it a + to sta aswell. Up to 30 at most would be cool.<font color="#ff3300"> Think added percentage would be better, cause 30 sta will give us 90hp. think +150hp would be fine.</font></font></p> <p><font size="1">4. The Group taunt AA is trash. Righteousness doesnt need to be messed with instead I think you should allow Amends to be able to be cast cross raid. Not over powering but would let you pick a good target for it without having to change your group to a less optimal setting to give you more hate.<font color="#ff3300"> I think whether increase the amount of aggro and debuff or change it to +% in amends like it was befor.....1% per point.</font></font></p> <p><font size="1">5. The plus block thing isnt bad for our final AA. I dont mind it actually with how avoid and mit work these days. So ill leave that to the community to add imput on.<font color="#ff3300"> +block is good, especially with the +block adornments. a 29% tower of stone is very good, leave it as it is.</font> </font></p> <p><font size="1">I would like Paladins to comment on this and give positive feedback. I know I can be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but keep this positive and maybe we can get looked at and possibly get a change. Keep the ideas comming.</font></p></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[RaistNA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> redict wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT size=1>The Paladin is a very useful tool in almost anything. We can do everything half way decent ( heal, support, tank, dps ) but nothing we do is spectacular. What I mean by this is we are a hybrid class. A class that can do pretty much everything but nothing all that well in comparison to someone who focuses on it, ex Guard is the tank, thats all they do is get beat on. I am fine with this. I have never had a problem with it until AAs were introduced. I was hoping that our AA lines would give us a really good clear cut line for what ever path the paladin wants to tank. If he wants to be a battle cleric then he would have a line. If he wants to support the tank be a line for that. If he happens to be MT for whatever kind of guild they their would be a really good line for it. Same for dps good line for it. But as most paladins know this has not happened. Each line leaves us in the same spot we started at. Thrown in the middle. In the middle isnt fun as most pallys will agree with me. Our class just isnt fun anymore ( My opinion ) because we have had little change in such a long period of time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I have a few ideas for each line and I thought I would lay down a few ideas and am open to everyone voicing their opinions on what they think.</FONT></P><U> <P><FONT size=1>DPS</FONT></P></U> <P><FONT size=1>First off im not asking to be an assassin here id just like a small <U>NOTICABLE</U> increase.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>1. For the Wraths tree I would totally change it around. All the Aes you gave us +25% to should just be 1 AA. For the rest I would have to say reduce recast of our nukes. That combined with the 25% would give us a decent boost. Not much but a decent boost.  <FONT color=#ff3333>Well, I'd say that with relic legs we have a shortened recast of our nuke (+str line end ability)  Though you won't wear'em anymore, it is changing equipment for nuking. But i like the idea of shortening the reuse timers of our other damage spells, especially the ones against undead, cause this is where we shine when dpsing. Endline ability is fine imho, but as stated, doom judgement and, imho, consecrate are the worst abilities in wrath line. I'd like to see a good mix between single damage and aoe-damage. Brimstone is placed wrong, cause it's closed encounter ae....not worth the improvement.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>2. Now for the final one in this line. I would like for it to be +10-15% spell dmg per spell. <FONT color=#ff0000>Nice idea, but imho a bit overpowered, i'd say 5% damage and 5% recast are an alternative, but don't want to play with numbers, just an idea.</FONT><BR></FONT></P><U> <P><FONT size=1>Support</FONT></P></U> <P><FONT size=1>I am actually ok with our support line. I honestly think its our best line. The + to proc chance rocks and the group armament is good. But I wish you would allow fighters to benefit from this aswell. The Cure id like to have physical ailments to be cure aswell. But all in all if nothing happens to the support line I wouldnt be upset. Because like I said i think its good. <FONT color=#ff3300>Wouldn't even mind to spend a point in this, but that's cause I'm a tank, depends on playstyle of the paladin.</FONT><BR></FONT></P><U> <P><FONT size=1>TANK!</FONT></P></U> <P><FONT size=1>Going to be nice on this one cause this tends to get me deleted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>1. I think righteous condemnation should have a small ward component to it aswell. Maybe up to 350. The AA could increase both the heal and the ward amount. 222 on the heal and 350 on the ward I think would be ok. <FONT color=#ff3300>Nice idea, though there will be some problems: the stacking of wards and so on....you know? triple the amount of the heal and everything is fine, ward won't do anything useful in raids, the heal will.</FONT><FONT color=#0033cc> Set up the ward so its on its own type, then there wont be stacking issues.  The only stacking issues in raids are the ones SoE impliment, as shown with the pally and Sk wards, they can allow them to stack if they wish too.  Right now the only stacking issues are within shaman's tho, we dont have any.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>2. The sigil AA I like leave that lone imo.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>3. The Hp one isnt bad I dont guess maybe a bit more added to it. Give it a + to sta aswell. Up to 30 at most would be cool.<FONT color=#ff3300> Think added percentage would be better, cause 30 sta will give us 90hp. think +150hp would be fine.<BR></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>4. The Group taunt AA is trash. Righteousness doesnt need to be messed with instead I think you should allow Amends to be able to be cast cross raid. Not over powering but would let you pick a good target for it without having to change your group to a less optimal setting to give you more hate.<FONT color=#ff3300> I think whether increase the amount of aggro and debuff or change it to +% in amends like it was befor.....1% per point. <FONT color=#0033cc>I agree with Itoock, cross raid amends would be sweet.  Then u dont have to pull the dps outa their dps group and bring them into the MT group, cause its obvious they wont be putting out the same numbers and aquire the same hate.</FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>5. The plus block thing isnt bad for our final AA. I dont mind it actually with how avoid and mit work these days. So ill leave that to the community to add imput on.<FONT color=#ff3300> +block is good, especially with the +block adornments. a 29% tower of stone is very good, leave it as it is.</FONT> </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I would like Paladins to comment on this and give positive feedback. I know I can be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but keep this positive and maybe we can get looked at and possibly get a change. Keep the ideas comming.</FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Anariale]

The problem is that there are so many fundamental design flaws with the Paladin class, mostly centered around the long casting times and how casting in melee is pretty much a guaranteed interrupt.Our Two DD's should both be 0.5 Casting time, not 1.0 and 2.0.  Heck, Guardians have 3 attacks that do roughly the same damage as Conviction with an 0.5/0.5 casting time and cant be interrupted.  Why is it that Paladins should have to stand there casting for some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] duration?  Heck, just make these two abilities Combat Arts anyways and base their damage on Strength, not Int.The same goes for our heals... we are in-combat healers... meaning we heal while being beaten on, which is unlike any Priest class out there.  Why should our heals be the same casting time as theirs?  They are already less effective as a whole (especially on power-efficiency, but thats an entirely different argument).  By decreasing the casting time of our Single Target heal and ward to 1 second and our Group Heal to 2 seconds, we dont drastically increase our max HPS, but we make our heals more useable.  Furthermore, the 3 second self-target heal is just right out.  This spell typically takes 6-9 seconds to cast if it goes off at all.  This should be an "oh poop" ability, much like Tower of Stone or Guardian Sphere.  Instead its never reliable.That being said, I like a couple of your ideas for the AA's.  I like Righteous Condemnation being changed into a Ward.  I think 350 Ward + 222 heal would be a bit much.  However, if they upped the heal amount and just turned it into a Ward, this spell becomes infinitely more useful.  The current problem with Condemnation is that when I use it, Im typically already maxed on health, which means the heal does nothing.  A Ward would allow me to store up that healing for the next incoming hit, and if that hit doesnt come, the ward will heal me when it dissipates.  Thats a good idea.As for most of the other lines, Im really actually pretty happy with the AA choices of the Paladin class.  They seem fairly well thought out.  Although I will say that the reduction in reuse time for Sigil that we are forced to take if we want the block AA is a complete waste.  I went from using Sigil once in a blue moon to using Sigil once in a blue moon.  It would be better to move the +5% to our self-proc over to the Hero line, drop the Sigil line, then replace the Support line spot with an AA that reduces the penalty of Pledge of Armament... granted, I hate Pledge and its just a complete kick in the nuts to Paladins who already have lower Mit than Guardians.<div></div>

[beliker]

I agree with the wrath line idea, all our aoe damage increases should be under one talent. Then the others could focus on specfic ones, relating to their recast, and casting speeds.On the shield one, isn't it only like a addition of 3-4% overall avoidance? Seems like for a end tree skill it should be alot higher. <div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<P>I'd love to see our heals have even more cast time reduction on them. Having the end ability in the Str line (10% cast/recast redux) plus 5 points in a given healing ability helps, but it's not quite where it should be if we're intended to use heals and wards to offset mitigation/avoidance differences as a tank. (Too many interrupts). In my wildest of dreams, I'd have loved to see an emergency ward - much like out Lay of Hands line, but an insta-cast high value ward instead. People would probably scream that it'd be overpowered though, so I doubt it'd happen soon.</P> <P>I really like the DPS lines as-is, although I'd have liked to see something in there to help us on our single target DPS. I've been able to make some scouts' jaws drop with my ae/group encounter DPS, but if it's a solo mob, forget it.</P> <P>The hero line just needs a revamp. Outside of the blocking mastery, there's not one item in that line that doesn't need adjusting. Personally, I'd love to see the blocking mastery become one of the non-end line abilities (but stay as-is) in the hero line. I'd love to see an end-line ability where we're able to get a short term mega-boost to our resists. Kinda like the warrior temp mit buffs, but for resists. If warriors are supposed to shine in mit, and brawlers shine in avoidance, then we should have special enhancement to resists.</P> <P>I honestly can't comment for good constructive criticism on the utility line, since I don't use it. Our rez distance NEEDS adjusting, however. I'd much rather have had an aa that increased the distance I could rez from, over what we were given.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>RaistNA wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> redict wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Nevarer wrote: <div> <p><font size="1">The Paladin is a very useful tool in almost anything. We can do everything half way decent ( heal, support, tank, dps ) but nothing we do is spectacular. What I mean by this is we are a hybrid class. A class that can do pretty much everything but nothing all that well in comparison to someone who focuses on it, ex Guard is the tank, thats all they do is get beat on. I am fine with this. I have never had a problem with it until AAs were introduced. I was hoping that our AA lines would give us a really good clear cut line for what ever path the paladin wants to tank. If he wants to be a battle cleric then he would have a line. If he wants to support the tank be a line for that. If he happens to be MT for whatever kind of guild they their would be a really good line for it. Same for dps good line for it. But as most paladins know this has not happened. Each line leaves us in the same spot we started at. Thrown in the middle. In the middle isnt fun as most pallys will agree with me. Our class just isnt fun anymore ( My opinion ) because we have had little change in such a long period of time.</font></p> <p><font size="1">I have a few ideas for each line and I thought I would lay down a few ideas and am open to everyone voicing their opinions on what they think.</font></p><u> <p><font size="1">DPS</font></p></u> <p><font size="1">First off im not asking to be an assassin here id just like a small <u>NOTICABLE</u> increase.</font></p> <p><font size="1">1. For the Wraths tree I would totally change it around. All the Aes you gave us +25% to should just be 1 AA. For the rest I would have to say reduce recast of our nukes. That combined with the 25% would give us a decent boost. Not much but a decent boost.  <font color="#ff3333">Well, I'd say that with relic legs we have a shortened recast of our nuke (+str line end ability)  Though you won't wear'em anymore, it is changing equipment for nuking. But i like the idea of shortening the reuse timers of our other damage spells, especially the ones against undead, cause this is where we shine when dpsing. Endline ability is fine imho, but as stated, doom judgement and, imho, consecrate are the worst abilities in wrath line. I'd like to see a good mix between single damage and aoe-damage. Brimstone is placed wrong, cause it's closed encounter ae....not worth the improvement.</font></font></p> <p><font size="1">2. Now for the final one in this line. I would like for it to be +10-15% spell dmg per spell. <font color="#ff0000">Nice idea, but imho a bit overpowered, i'd say 5% damage and 5% recast are an alternative, but don't want to play with numbers, just an idea.</font></font></p><u> <p><font size="1">Support</font></p></u> <p><font size="1">I am actually ok with our support line. I honestly think its our best line. The + to proc chance rocks and the group armament is good. But I wish you would allow fighters to benefit from this aswell. The Cure id like to have physical ailments to be cure aswell. But all in all if nothing happens to the support line I wouldnt be upset. Because like I said i think its good. <font color="#ff3300">Wouldn't even mind to spend a point in this, but that's cause I'm a tank, depends on playstyle of the paladin.</font></font></p><u> <p><font size="1">TANK!</font></p></u> <p><font size="1">Going to be nice on this one cause this tends to get me deleted.</font></p> <p><font size="1">1. I think righteous condemnation should have a small ward component to it aswell. Maybe up to 350. The AA could increase both the heal and the ward amount. 222 on the heal and 350 on the ward I think would be ok. <font color="#ff3300">Nice idea, though there will be some problems: the stacking of wards and so on....you know? triple the amount of the heal and everything is fine, ward won't do anything useful in raids, the heal will.</font><font color="#0033cc"> Set up the ward so its on its own type, then there wont be stacking issues.  The only stacking issues in raids are the ones SoE impliment, as shown with the pally and Sk wards, they can allow them to stack if they wish too.  Right now the only stacking issues are within shaman's tho, we dont have any. <font color="#ff3300">Yeah, but imho an instant heal of 700ish will be more useful, cause the ward from another healer can be cast and if ure w/o a fury, this instant heal will be extremely uber.</font></font></font></p> <p><font size="1">2. The sigil AA I like leave that lone imo.</font></p> <p><font size="1">3. The Hp one isnt bad I dont guess maybe a bit more added to it. Give it a + to sta aswell. Up to 30 at most would be cool.<font color="#ff3300"> Think added percentage would be better, cause 30 sta will give us 90hp. think +150hp would be fine.</font></font></p> <p><font size="1">4. The Group taunt AA is trash. Righteousness doesnt need to be messed with instead I think you should allow Amends to be able to be cast cross raid. Not over powering but would let you pick a good target for it without having to change your group to a less optimal setting to give you more hate.<font color="#ff3300"> I think whether increase the amount of aggro and debuff or change it to +% in amends like it was befor.....1% per point. <font color="#0033cc">I agree with Itoock, cross raid amends would be sweet.  Then u dont have to pull the dps outa their dps group and bring them into the MT group, cause its obvious they wont be putting out the same numbers and aquire the same hate. <font color="#ff3300">Though you could fill up the aggro-spot with some more buffing, i see there 2 main problems: at first: how should points be spended? 5 points so u can amends grp 3? and the second problem is: wouldn't this make us whether uber or just aggro leechers for grps w/o troubs?</font></font></font></font></p> <p><font size="1">5. The plus block thing isnt bad for our final AA. I dont mind it actually with how avoid and mit work these days. So ill leave that to the community to add imput on.<font color="#ff3300"> +block is good, especially with the +block adornments. a 29% tower of stone is very good, leave it as it is.</font> </font></p> <p><font size="1">I would like Paladins to comment on this and give positive feedback. I know I can be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but keep this positive and maybe we can get looked at and possibly get a change. Keep the ideas comming.</font></p></div> <hr> </blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote></div>

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> <P>redict wrote:<BR></P> <DIV><BR><FONT size=1><FONT color=#ff3333> Brimstone is placed wrong, cause it's closed encounter ae....not worth the improvement.</FONT><BR> Have you ever checked a parseer to see what spells to the most damage for you ? Guessing not</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1><FONT color=#ff3300> ward won't do anything useful in raids, the heal will.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV>LOL on this one... your right 3 non shammy healers in the MT group is ftw........................... wards> heals ANYDAY it is like a  preheal</DIV> <P><FONT size=1>__________________________________________________ __________________________________</FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Wulfborne]

<P>You guys are makin' my eyes hurt with the microscopic print. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <P>You guys are makin' my eyes hurt with the microscopic print. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Hawke</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFT

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>PolarBear77 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <div> <blockquote> <blockquote> <div> <blockquote> <div><font size="1"></font> <hr> <p>redict wrote:</p> <div><font size="1"><font color="#ff3333"> Brimstone is placed wrong, cause it's closed encounter ae....not worth the improvement.</font> Have you ever checked a parseer to see what spells to the most damage for you ? Guessing not</font></div> <div>Guessed wrong, Einstein, vs raidencounters and  singleencounters i guess brimstone won't be #1 spot. </div> <div><font size="1"><font color="#ff3300"> ward won't do anything useful in raids, the heal will.</font></font></div> <div>LOL on this one... your right 3 non shammy healers in the MT group is ftw........................... wards> heals ANYDAY it is like a  prehealRead my last reply to raistin and you will understand, young padawan.Nuff said</div> <p><font size="1">__________________________________________________ __________________________________</font></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote><hr></blockquote></div>

[PolarBear77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> redict wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PolarBear77 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> <P>redict wrote:<BR></P> <DIV><BR><FONT size=1><FONT color=#ff3333> Brimstone is placed wrong, cause it's closed encounter ae....not worth the improvement.</FONT><BR> Have you ever checked a parseer to see what spells to the most damage for you ? Guessing not<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>Guessed wrong, Einstein, vs raidencounters and  singleencounters i guess brimstone won't be #1 spot.<BR><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1><FONT color=#ff3300> ward won't do anything useful in raids, the heal will.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV>LOL on this one... your right 3 non shammy healers in the MT group is ftw........................... wards> heals ANYDAY it is like a  preheal<BR><BR>Read my last reply to raistin and you will understand, young padawan.<BR><BR>Nuff said<BR></DIV> <P><FONT size=1>__________________________________________________ __________________________________</FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I didn't say it would be # 1 i asked if you have have checked your parse b/c for me it is int he top 3 ALL the time.</P> <P>I not seeing your reason on which heals are better than wards but w/e, not tring to flame but pointing out the obvious.</P>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>wards are far more efficient and better than heals any day of the week.  A ward component on that spell would be awesome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And it would be useful on raids,  with the .5s cast time,  you can can that thing right before a mob AOes for a bit of protection,  and again right after to heel some of what got through, and use very little power.</DIV>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>I like your ideas but as far getting something the devs might agree to one idea I like to see done is for our dps make us the bain of undead we do better against them already but how about makeing our undead bonus do about 3 times what they do now would not make us overpowered against anything else but would make it a must to have a pally or 2 on any fight thats taking on undead things. Cause right now we do double damage against undead and our damage still isnt  much better than Gaurd or Berserker and they just fighting a reg mob for them. If we started hitting undead for 2k a pop on our procs people would use us more often for sitiuations.</DIV>

[FallenTurtle]

<DIV>I agree, we need something that deals with casting times.. not just of heals, but of our spells in general. while Goofing around tanking in Kaladim today. I was getting interrupted alot. I was in tank mode with an ungodly focus too. in a group encounter, my ward was interrupted 3-4 times before it finally casted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I love smite evil.. so dont do anything to it! i really do think thoe that doom jugment should not be on our wrath line thoe. I said it in beta. It should be replaced with something that reduces the power and/or casting time of our blue or red combat arts/spells. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the hero line i am currently going down. and I think that the health buff sould be increased slightly, also, the righetous condemnation heal should be improved slightly too, or a ward added to it. Seeing as we have the lowest hp and lowest power (thanks to soe.. Im still waiting on our extra power <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) even thoe our resists are up there.(i can top about 8k per resist stat that we need self buffed) our hp is what is lacking as a tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An amends that is cross raid would be lovely. I have tanked a raid on several occasions and find that even with amends+sigil going, I still have a hard time keeping aggro from a good caster. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for the love of god... FIX DIVINE FAVOR! that spell should do something completey different.. i dunno like increase our dps or give us a permenant small self ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wulfborne wrote:<div></div> <p>You guys are makin' my eyes hurt with the microscopic print. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>~Hawke</p><hr></blockquote><font size="1">AHHH, stop shouting with your HUGE fonts!  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></font></div>

[Caetrel]

I would like to see the useless/ broken/ underused abilities fixed/ improved before anything new was added, and these have all been said earlier: Defensive Stance-  Give us parry, nuff said.  Let us keep the +wisdom to help our resists slightly, but give us parry so we aren't total melee punching bags (still would be anyway just not quite as bad) Sigil- make it more of a direct rescue/ reinforcement thing, as it is now it is okay for keeping aggro, inneffective for snapping aggro back.  And since I don't have any prob keeping aggro and only would want an aggro tool for memewipes or adds, it is currently a total waste Divine Aura AA - dead horse, but an improvement would be nice, Guards get a million hit avoid abilities, we get this junk Divine Favor- dead horse, how about this, INSTA Cast 60 second duration self only Emergency/ Save that heals for x amount. wards for x amount, and has NO bad side effects.    Make it an effective E Save that would add another in the MT group rotation.    Pledge of Armament- I would rather pee rainbow colors than have this is my knowledge book, more useful Doom Judgment AA- This is the biggest loser in the EoF AA tree.  C'mon, it's a 5 minute recast.  It generally does jack on epics.  Either use this AA slot to reduce the recast timer on it or scrap it in favor of something else.  5% more damage on a 5 minute recast, low damage AOE is totally useless and ill conceived. <div></div>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>Divine Aura AA - dead horse, but an improvement would be nice, Guards get a million hit avoid abilities, we get this junk<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with you on the rest... but I simply love DA.  Its an amazing ability... the only thing that sucks is the horridly long reuse timer.</P> <P>W</P>

[Caetrel]

I haven't used it in a long, long time.  What are typical raid situations where you find it useful?  <div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>I sit at 12.5K HP right now, and its rare that I get hit for over 6K damage per hit.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Im MTing, its just another "Oh Crap" that works far better than LoH.<BR>If its a situation where the MT dies, I can hit Sigil, Consecrate and start AEing like crazy to pull aggro... and then I hit Divine Aura to give the healers a chance to stabilize in on my health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mostly I just use it when doing places like MMC where fights can go downhill quickly (running MMC with 1g, 2g makes it easy).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV>

[Nevar]

Dude divine aura sucks and you know it. If it triggers you get 1k hp and stiffled forever!

[Anariale]

<P>Divine Favor = Lvl 58 Spell - Death Ward that sucks monkey nuts and I never use because its worthless</P> <P>Divine Aura = Tier 5 Stam AA - 10 second invulnerability for any hit up to 50% of your max health</P> <P>Im talking about Divine Aura being useful, not the piece of poop in a bag that is Divine Favor.</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 PM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Im talking about Divine Aura being useful, not the piece of poop in a bag that is Divine Favor.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, that made me laugh. Not out of disagreement, just the way it was said. Priceless. (And so true) :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>~Hawke<BR></P>

[Caetrel]

If the half health limit based on total health I have read it posted here that it is current only?  I haven't been specc'd into this AA since back when KoS released and it was brokenly useless.  <div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>Divine Aura works as specified for me.  It has for quite some time.  The first couple weeks off of KoS it was broken, but it was fixed fairly quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV>

[PolarBear77]

Well i think your one of the very few CRUSADERS that has ever said this is a good ability b/c everyone else thinks it sucks the donkey dong.<p>Message Edited by PolarBear77 on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>