Paladin vs Guardian on Vilucidae

[Anariale]

<div></div><div></div><font size="2">We raided Lyceum last night.  I MT'd most of the zone last night on my Paladin.  I hadnt even touched a Guardian since EoF came out until last night.  Darton had been put up in Dry Dock.  We went through 3 pulls on Vilucidae with my Paladin (Wyrd) tanking (below is the best of those pulls for Wyrd).  On the 4th pull, I said "Screw this" and went to go get the Guardian.  Having not played a Guardian in over 2 months, we 1-shot Vilucidae with him with ease.  Its not that Im a crappy Paladin tank... in fact, most people comment that I do thinks that they have never seen a Paladin do... but rather, Guardians are still king amongst all fighters for tanking epic content... bar none.Playing the Guardian was just as retardedly simple as I remember it.  Get into position and just dont take any damage.  Throw out a couple taunts to insure you survive, and just plain win the encounter.  You just gotta love how night and day the differences are between the two classes tanking.Note that both of these toons are pretty much evenly equipped.  Both are pretty much full mastered, fully fabled.Couple things to note:Wyrd hits significantly more often due to his Group +34 Skills buff from the Wis AA line.Wyrd crits more often due to his 25% melee-crit chance from the STA line.Darton still does more overall DPS.  This is because Guardian CA's FAR surpass anything a Paladin has.Its also interesting to note that Wyrd had higher melee DPS even though Darton used Buckler and double-attack through most of the fight.  The first 3-4 seconds and Phase 4 were both Tower Shield.</font><font size="2"><font color="Orange"><font color="#ffffff"> Anyways, enjoy and discuss. (Note this is not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fest, just a very interesting and direct comparison between two classes in the same spot.)</font></font></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">The raid was the same for both pulls with only two discrepancies: 1)  Switching Wyrd (Paladin) for Darton (Guardian) 2)  Switching the 2nd Tank in the MT group from a Monk (when Wyrd tanking) to a Berserker (when Darton tanking) Overall raid composition was: 6 Healers (one of each) 6 Fighters (2 Berserkers, 1 Monk, 1 Brawler, 1 SK + Paladin/Guardian swap) 7 Scouts (2 Dirges, 2 Swashies, 1 Assassin, 1 Troub, 1 Ranger) 5 Mages (1 Wizard, 1 Warlock, 1 Coercer, 1 Illusionist, 1 Necro)</font><font size="2">Wyrd's AA'sSTA - 5 4 8 8 1Wis - 4 4 8Hero - 21 PointsSupport - 7 PointsDarton's AA'sI dont remember as I havent played him in forever, but its the cookie cutter Buckler AA spec w/ max +Mit from the Wisdom line<font color="Orange"><font color="#ffffff">Note Darton does not have the EoF expansion, so no cloak and no enhanced AA's.</font>Wyrd vs Vilucidae</font>Starting Incoming DPS - 262Low Incoming DPS - 220Peak Incoming DPS - 1095 (Phase 4)</font><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">Incoming DPS (Encounter) - 558.47</font></font><font size="2">Max Hit - 7914<font color="#ffffff">Average Hit - 1617.85</font><font color="#ffff00">Average Crush Hit (Vilucidae's Autoattack) - 3849.97</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">DPS Out - 344.72</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Slash DPS - 178.75</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">To-Hit% - 65.87%</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Crit% - 15.7%</font>Block% - 18.79%Parry% - 6.29%Miss% - 6.61%Loagan Deflects - 10.00%Loagan Parries - 2.65%<font color="Orange">Darton vs Vilucidae</font>Starting Incoming DPS - 307Low Incoming DPS - 33 DPSPeak Incoming DPS - 623 (Phase 4)</font><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">Incoming DPS (Encounter) - 344.85</font></font><font size="2">Max Hit - 3611Average Hit - 1157.71<font color="#ffff00">Average Crush Hit (Vilucidae's Autoattack) - 1749.40</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">DPS Out - 394.69</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Slash DPS - 172.16</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">To-Hit% - 52.98%</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Crit% - 10.8%</font>Rough Avoidance #'sBlock% - 11.94% (Buckler)Parry% - 8.84%Miss% - 17.80%Zanshen Block% - 19.54%Zanshen Parry% - 10.31%</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Majorminor]

<div></div>Wow, the thing that stands out the most to me anyway, just glancing at it, was the Autoattack damage taken.  The pally took over 2x the autoattack damage than the Guard did.  I will say, it's great to see posts like this.  Not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fest or anything, but real numbers from 1 person that has/plays both Guard and Pally.  That way there's no hearsay, or bias involved.  Just plan numbers.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Majorminor on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

<div></div>Yeah, I agree Zrais, what stumps me is that with the diminishing returns curve I would have thought that the gap between plate fighters was severely lessened? Curious, what's the mit on both, number and percentage. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Arcanos]

These numbers were a bit disconcerting at first glance.  Then I got to thinking about a couple things.  Guardian is about avoiding or "mitigating" damage solely, where a Paladin is able to heal back some of that damage.  Wonder how it truly comes out in the end in terms of total damage taken minus the healback of self heals, wards, etc.  If in fact a Guardian and Paladin were taking evevn close to teh same damage, then the Paladin would be way ahead after self heals, etc, wouldn't he?

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>Arcanos wrote:<div></div>These numbers were a bit disconcerting at first glance.  Then I got to thinking about a couple things.  Guardian is about avoiding or "mitigating" damage solely, where a Paladin is able to heal back some of that damage.  Wonder how it truly comes out in the end in terms of total damage taken minus the healback of self heals, wards, etc.  If in fact a Guardian and Paladin were taking evevn close to teh same damage, then the Paladin would be way ahead after self heals, etc, wouldn't he?<hr></blockquote>No Self heals get interuppted too much to cast them, and when you're getting auto attacked for 3k+ a 1k self ward that takes over a minute to cast doesn't do much good.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>Also realize you have to be spamming attacks to hold aggro in addition to healing.  </DIV> <DIV>Plus Guardians have some pretty massive debuffs on their 2 DoTs (DPS and Attack Skill Debuffs).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its just interesting that the same argument generally comes up...<BR>Paladins give up Mit because they can heal...</DIV> <DIV>Paladins give up Damage because they can heal...</DIV> <DIV>Paladins give up Utility because they can heal...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 20% DPS reduction from Sever is probably more effective than all the heals a Paladin has.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while its just an anectodal feeling I had...</DIV> <DIV>Tanking on the Paladin was white-knuckled and stressful.</DIV> <DIV>Tanking on the Guardian... well, I almost fell asleep because I was bored.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">white-knuckled and stressful. <hr size="2" width="100%">That's why I play this game, to get stressed out. Nice info, thanks for taking the time.  Is Vildnucae harder post-EoF?  I have not tanked him in prolly 4 months or so. <div></div>

[rya]

<P>Even with 8 in both spell/melee crit, Guardian will still almost always do more damage with the double attack AA in buckler line because double attack is erm.. double attack and crit is only 30% more damage.</P> <P>I might be wrong but survivability seems a bit fuzzy on the avoidance side because the zerker block and parry like 30% of all attacks that passes the to-hit checks on the guardian while the monk block and parry only 13% of the attacks that passes the to-hit checks on the paladin. Can you please tell us the avoidance % of all four characters and the actual number of swings made, hit and missed/blocked/parried/riposted by the four characters and Vilucidae?</P> <P>The difference in average damage received by paladin, 3.8k, and guardian, 1.7k, is a "WOAH". The damage is average out only on the hits or on all swings?</P> <P> </P> <P>Not really on the topic but since the + 34 skills AA was brought up...</P> <P>I, myself, cannot really tell the difference between having the wis AA "Battle Leadership" on or off. My melee auto-attack hitting percentage hovers around 55% with or without the +34 skills.</P> <P>Anyone else with this AA care to comment?</P>

[Caetrel]

The difference in average damage per melee hit taken is too great to make any sense.  The pally takes over twice the damage.  Is that factoring in swings that don't hit?  Anything to do with the zerker blocking 30% of the hits on the guard but the monk only blocking 12% on the pally?  No doubt the pally will get hit more, but even with temp mit buffs the melee damage taken should be no more than 5% difference. <div></div>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ryanc wrote:<BR> <P>I might be wrong but survivability seems a bit fuzzy on the avoidance side because the zerker block and parry like 30% of all attacks that passes the to-hit checks on the guardian while the monk block and parry only 13% of the attacks that passes the to-hit checks on the paladin. Can you please tell us the avoidance % of all four characters and the actual number of swings made, hit and missed/blocked/parried/riposted by the four characters and Vilucidae?</P> <P>The difference in average damage received by paladin, 3.8k, and guardian, 1.7k, is a "WOAH". The damage is average out only on the hits or on all swings?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You make a good point on avoidance.  I dont have the numbers in front of me right now, so I cant really respond at this point.  However, the total number of attacks were about the same (around 160).  When calcing %'s, I used the following order of operations:</P> <P>Parry + Riposte of MT<BR>Block of MT<BR>Miss on MT<BR>Parry + Riposte of OT<BR>Block of OT</P> <P>You can probably back-calculate the actual numbers from that and be reasonably confident at them.  If I remember, Ill post them tonight.</P> <P>And the damage was average over all hits.  I agree that it would probably make more sense to just look at the actual hits.  When I posted this, this morning, I was trying to get all the data together before running to work, so I was just copying the numbers off last night's ACT Parse.</P> <P>W</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[Gynx20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arcanos wrote:<BR> These numbers were a bit disconcerting at first glance.  Then I got to thinking about a couple things.  Guardian is about avoiding or "mitigating" damage solely, where a Paladin is able to heal back some of that damage.  Wonder how it truly comes out in the end in terms of total damage taken minus the healback of self heals, wards, etc.  If in fact a Guardian and Paladin were taking evevn close to teh same damage, then the Paladin would be way ahead after self heals, etc, wouldn't he?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Have to agree with Liluk, our self heals and wards would help very little, on large epic fights better to take the time to get our quick actions off. Pretty large gap in the numbers if you ask me.

[Madbiker]

<P>What the heck, were you in my Vent channel last night??? I was telling a guildmate about this same exact expierence that happened to me when I was tanking for a startup guild until a suitable replacement was found. I could handle just about any encounter, but when it came to him, I will admit, I have never successfully tanked him with my paladin, however, logging in my poorly equiped guardian made all the difference in the world.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am in a new guild, one that I can safely say I will never be a mt, but i do offtank;and I am somewhat worried about the focus on paladins as healers.  I am sick of seeing +defense on the other plate gear (class sets) while paladins are getting +ministration, give me a break.  I am also worried about the focus on paladin heals and the addition of a cure in the AA tree. this is nice for someone who thinks they can heal like a priest, however, I did not select this class two years ago to heal. Whats worse, Templars and Furys will out DPS  a paldin and out heal them, oh yeah, I've seen defilers do alot fo damage too. </P> <P> </P> <P>Add this to the fact that or battle res is worthless compared to a dirge, when a raid member drops, im failry quick to get in posistion(right on top of the corpse) and cast my spell, guess what !!! It normally goes all the way thru it's cast and the dirge res gets in first everytime.  WHATEVER HAPPEND TO MY 15 sec RES???? oh, been gone since DoF... Im done complaining for now</P>

[Caetrel]

<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">Add this to the fact that or battle res is worthless compared to a dirge <hr size="2" width="100%">I am still convinced the 1m range on our rezz is a typo that never, ever got fixed since launch.  Why is every other rezz 10m and ours only 1?   <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 PM</span>

[Majorminor]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">Add this to the fact that or battle res is worthless compared to a dirge <hr size="2" width="100%">I am still convinced the 1m range on our rezz is a typo that never, ever got fixed since launch.  Why is every other rezz 10m and ours only 1?   <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class="date_text">12-13-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>It wasn't like that from Launch, I'm pretty sure at least, that it was changed with the big first combat changes, what was that LU 13 or something like that. Used to have some range on it at least, was IIRC 50% health/power rezz, less than Min timer and had the normal range.</div>

[Arcanos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arcanos wrote:<BR> These numbers were a bit disconcerting at first glance.  Then I got to thinking about a couple things.  Guardian is about avoiding or "mitigating" damage solely, where a Paladin is able to heal back some of that damage.  Wonder how it truly comes out in the end in terms of total damage taken minus the healback of self heals, wards, etc.  If in fact a Guardian and Paladin were taking evevn close to teh same damage, then the Paladin would be way ahead after self heals, etc, wouldn't he?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No<BR><BR>Self heals get interuppted too much to cast them, and when you're getting auto attacked for 3k+ a 1k self ward that takes over a minute to cast doesn't do much good.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That would seem to be a problem that should be fixed.  If our heals/wards, etc are meant to offset the Guardian bonuses to reduce damage taken, then perhaps lowering drastically the castingn times and increasing the recast timer proportianetly would be an easy fix to make the class work as intended, wouldn't it?

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Arcanos wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kaleyen wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Arcanos wrote: <div></div>These numbers were a bit disconcerting at first glance.  Then I got to thinking about a couple things.  Guardian is about avoiding or "mitigating" damage solely, where a Paladin is able to heal back some of that damage.  Wonder how it truly comes out in the end in terms of total damage taken minus the healback of self heals, wards, etc.  If in fact a Guardian and Paladin were taking evevn close to teh same damage, then the Paladin would be way ahead after self heals, etc, wouldn't he? <hr> </blockquote>NoSelf heals get interuppted too much to cast them, and when you're getting auto attacked for 3k+ a 1k self ward that takes over a minute to cast doesn't do much good. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>That would seem to be a problem that should be fixed.  If our heals/wards, etc are meant to offset the Guardian bonuses to reduce damage taken, then perhaps lowering drastically the castingn times and increasing the recast timer proportianetly would be an easy fix to make the class work as intended, wouldn't it?<hr></blockquote>There in lies the problem.Because it makes sense and is a very reasonable request, Paladins have been asking for just that, thus SOE has ignored them.</div>

[TheBu]

<DIV>ok..  so how is a gardian and pally diffrent? when in come to the mit, def and avoidance?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>someone said more of their gear get def? or what? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the main thing i am intrested in the mit..  what make them diff there? I know about the shield spell but any thing else?</DIV>

[Anariale]

<P>Guardians have:<BR>1)  AA for ~300 more Mit<BR>2)  2 Temporary Buffs (66% of the time one is up) for ~1000 Mit<BR>3)  Group Defense buff (24 at M1, I think)<BR>4)  Parry in Defensive Stance (14 I think)<BR>5)  Tower of Stone (3 Hit Invuln)<BR>6)  Stone Sphere (With intelligent use, this is 6 free stoneskins)</P> <P>In addition Guardians have<BR>1)  DPS Debuff (100% duty cycle for -20% DPS on mob)<BR>2)  Melee Skill Debuff (100% duty cycle for -15? Melee Skills)<BR><BR>W</P>

[Madbiker]

<DIV>Range was 5 - 15 meters, I dont remember for sure, but the recast was 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 seconds,     lets see,            1 minute at 1 meter,  i think they had 1's on the mind when they changed it</DIV><p>Message Edited by Madbiker on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 AM</span>

[Deevaun]

<DIV>I myself have been playing a guard, the guardian i have been tanking with isn't nearly as decked out as my paladin is, it seems a lot easier to tank mobs with the guardian vs the paladin so far.  Now I can tank a ton with my paladin, but I have a theory that because guardians get all kinds of dps reduction abilities while raising their mit, it allows them to get hit a ton less allowing other healers to be more effective.  Which raises a question, when the paladin tanks, since they have no offensive skill debuffs, are other players slacking that could debuff initially?  I heard some rumor about a max dps debuff and offensive skill debuff?  not sure what the cap is or if they even changed the cap to where you can keep the mob extremely debuffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also heres something else to think about.  I as a paladin can parse easily in the top of the healers in raids.  So you can count me pretty much as an additional healer.  If the paladin picks up the role of tank, then where is their fill in to heal them as they healed the guard?  Cause you can't count them in the same role as now all of their heals are being added in as their tank technique to fill in cap for the mit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[txleathertx]

<DIV>I was led to this post by someone answer a post I had....interesting reading to say the least. I have to throw in my two cents worth on this...our heals may not be the best of heals when an epic encounter hits for 6-8k...but then again a 1.5k heal stacked on top of a warden's heals of time...reactive heals etc...then  I am going to also say that our heals would put us at an advantage as far as those hit points are concerned...so I, as a Pally took nearly 66% more damage than the guardian...It would be interesting to see the total hit points given back from self heals and wards. Pallys will forever throw our heals into the mix since guardians always throw in their mit buffs up at us...turn about IS fair play. The only numbers that concern me is the max hit...I admit that is a huge concern...specially in the end of a long hard fight and some priests are outta power...by time that happens we throw up our oh crap heal and divine favor and hope your team mates and reactives kick in on the healing for the last mile effort...a white knuckler...yea it is...but the fight is done...the box has hit the floor...everyone breathes a sigh of releif and you carry on. Nice comparasion to say the least. </DIV>

[Anariale]

<DIV>20% DPS Reduction from a Guardian's Sever ability on a mob that hits for 7000 damage = 1400 damage "mitigated" for each swing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sever costs less than Devotion.</DIV> <DIV>Sever reduces more damage than Devotion.</DIV> <DIV>Sever stays up longer than Devotion.</DIV> <DIV>Sever does damage to the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>However, on the other hand, when mobs are hitting for 500 damage per swing, a 20% DPS reduction isnt nearly as powerful as a 1400 HP Ward, as it would take 14 hits from a mob to equal just one Ward.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my best example of how Paladin abilities do not scale to epic level fights.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins are excellent tanks up to about 12-man groups.  Above that, Guardians just shine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can a Paladin tank pretty much any epic encounter in game?  Probably... I know Chel'Drak has been tanked by a Paladin, but I dont think Matron has yet, and Im not sure about any of the EoF content.  However, a Guardian just has the tools to do it better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And just to be crystal clear, no, I absolutely do not think Guardians should be nerfed in any way form or fashion.  I just think there are some modifications that can be done to Paladins that would help them better scale to epic encounters:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>

[ChuMann]

<P>I may get pounded for this one, but I don't think a paladin should tank Vilucidae unless there's no other option.  Here's my point...</P> <P>Vilucidae does no damage other than his autoattack damage.  A pally's tanking strengths are in their resists, aoe damage output (for aoe aggro), uber hate gain (Amends/Sigil), and now a slightly higher blocking percentage.  Nothing about Vilucidae fits into any of these strengths, and in fact, it is just the opposite.  Guardians are intended to stand up against the massive melee damage, spike damage, and barrages.  Those are what the Vilucidae fight is all about.</P> <P>I love my Paladin, I tank with my paladin, and I raid tank with my Paladin successfully.  However, I truly believe that different encounters, even within the same raid zone, are better suited for different tanks.  We have five MT's in my guild (Pally, Guard, Zerker, SK, Monk), and we've run every KoS raid zone successfully post expansion.  My point is that I hope you don't get caught up in whose better, whose worse, what needs to be nerfed and what doesn't.  In my experience, a skilled raid force with tanking options is a deadly one.</P> <P>I've tried the MT on Vilucidae on three pulls, and I'll never do it again.  I'll personally vote for the guard.  But when it comes time for Vyemm or even Tarinax, my guild votes for me.  </P>

[txleathertx]

I'm not sure about a Zerker...but I know that most fighter classes have a spell that is a temporary mit buff and root....As a Pally, all I would have to ask for that would be a nice addition to our spells is maybe make Brimstone not only a hit but also a nice little extra hate added to that hit...a good encounter taunt/hit...as well as give us our own temporary mit buff and root. Any debuffs can come from the other classes. Just my 2 copper worth...